Kudu

Were there added benefits for your boys or was it simply a convenience thing? Poorly trained Scout leaders usually sacrifice the Patrol Method to convenience. But there is nothing wrong with using a buddy system within existing Patrols. Do you have anything from the Troop in writing? It is possible that they are using a brand of dehydrated food that serves two people. Kudu

Why not have the Quartermasters read the condiment labels and see what actually needs refrigeration? Heinz ketchup doesn't. The next time someone works on Cooking Merit Badge, have him ask a professional about refrigeration. 8 b. Visit a professional cook, chef, food service manager, or Registered Dietitian and learn what this professional's duties are. Discuss the person's education and training, techniques, and means used in professional food preparation, and local health regulations and licensing requirements that must be followed. Report to your counselor your findings. Kudu

I have a real problem hanging a knife around a boys neck. I don't think that there is a problem with things like compasses and whistles. But I would never hand a knife around my neck much less one of my boys. What is your "real problem" with boys who wear a knife around their necks? I have worn a compass there, but they tend to be uncomfortable and get pretty scratched up. Kudu

jd writes: Kudu, you seem so well informed about the pre-1970 program, but your posts don't show the same content with regards to the present version. I've staffed my share of Council BSA training courses, jd, so you know what? Explaining the BSA's newest programs is somebody else's job now. if you're going to offer it up as better than things like NYLT and JLT, If you read what I actually wrote, you will see that I "offer up" William Hillcourt as a completely different form of training. JLT is abstract leadership skills, Green Bar Training is nuts & bolts. Obviously I'm a nuts & bolts guy, but I promise not to roll my eyes when other guys talk about how weepy they get in JLT when their Scouts pick their own potato out of a pile and introduce him to the group. I'm sure that is useful :-/ don't you need to be better informed? If I have made any factual errors just say so. We all have our areas of interest. My Website offers more than 2,000 pages of non-BSA information. The year 2006 is only 17days old so far and already I have served up 250,773 page views for 57,660 unique visitors, probably mostly BSA Scouters. My posts are written for the 10% in any group of Scouters who want to know everything they can about Scouting. If 10% of them go on to try a "new" old idea, then I have been successful. So tell me about NYLT, jd! Does it teach new Patrol Leaders how to run a Patrol Meeting? Do they use these Training Patrol Meetings to actually do things like make their Patrol Flag? A Patrol Yell and Patrol Call contest? How about Instructional Games? I'm sure NYLT must teach Patrol Leaders how to use games to teach Scouting skills! Does each participant get a turn at actually performing as Patrol Treasurer, Scribe, Quartermaster, Hikemaster, Grubmaster, Cheermaster? Do they make a knot board? I really like knot boards, and I'm glad to hear the BSA encourages that! How about traditional Scouting games? How many alternatives to basketball or dodge ball do they learn? Opening ceremonies? Closing ceremonies? Making camp equipment, even repairing toys as a Good Turn? How about planning? Do they learn how to actually plan a Patrol Meeting, point by point? Does it teach Patrol Leaders how to plan a Patrol Hike? The route, the equipment, the food? The activities that make for a fun and purposeful hike? How about Scoutcraft instruction? Does NYLT teach Patrol leaders how to teach specific advancement skills? I'm sure that it must cover the theory of Scoutcraft Advancement within the Patrol! You know, topics like: "Why advancement? What constitutes normal advancement? Why is it important that the Patrol Leader is ahead of the Scouts in his Patrol? How does hiking and camping make advancement possible?" I'm sure that NYLT covers how to teach most of the Scoutcraft advancement requirements from Tenderfoot through First Class. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Singing? Story telling? How about dramatics rather than pun & put-down skits? Do they then go on a Patrol Hike to see what a good Patrol Hike is like ("A Hike is a Walk with a Purpose")? Does it teach Patrol Leaders how to plan a Patrol Campout? All the details such as permission forms, equipment, campground selection, food, games to play. I'm sure that NYLT teaches Patrol Leaders how to prepare campout games ahead of time. And do they actually camp as a Patrol rather than just talking about it? Certainly these skills are essential to forming a new Troop from scratch, so they must be covered in NYLT, right? Or is Dan correct, that teaching such subjects is against Scout Law and a violation of the Guide to Safe Scouting? It seems like discussing program with you is talking apples and oranges. Tell me what you are talking about, and I will be happy to explain why mixing apples and oranges is a good thing. how will we ever accomplish anything if you bait the new program faithful and the new program defenders bait you. You forgot the part where the "new program defenders" spank the moderator and send him to the corner. By the time you get to, "Rkfrance's situation can be solved within the BSA structure by 1) Fixing the problems at the Troop across the street, or 2) Finding another Troop, or 3) Starting a new Troop. . . .", you're just ranting. This is way oversimplified and just unfair. Um, jd? You are projecting. Any neutral reading of that sentence will show that I was saying that RKfrance can solve his problems within the BSA structure. Then I moved on to address the wider issue of solving problems outside the BSA structure. This last post doesn't seemed aimed at helping rkfrance, as much as giving stomach ulcers to a few people who disagree with you. My last post had nothing to do with helping rkfrance. It was intended for readers who encounter a troll in their local Council, and decide that if they can't follow his rules, they should leave Scouting. Yes, people with ulcers tend to be nicer when their intended victims can go elsewhere. It appears you were just sandbagging for the opportunity to advertise other programs.....I would hate to conclude that your goal is merely to create opportunities to make digs at the present org and program -- that would certainly minimize the credibility and value I assign to your posted ideas. Well, get used to it, jd. Whenever someone says that the BSA does not allow something, I will always offer ways of getting around it and/or suggest an alternative to the BSA. Since you are speculating on my motives, let me speculate on yours! A friend of mine has a PhD in English Literature. Whenever he has problems with a corporation, he writes a letter in crayon on a brown paper bag. He writes in sentence fragments on the level of an angry sixth grader. He reports that if you are reasonable, then the company may write back asking for more details or to explain why they cannot resolve this issue in your favor. But if you act in a completely unreasonable way, then people often decide that it is easier to just let you have your way. I submit that the "new program defenders" have done that to you. :-) Kudu

Sending a 10.5 year old, 4'8", 85 lbs boy out onto a rugged trail with a 40 lbs pack for his first camping trip extreme too. It is all about the equipment. Your description is correct except for the "rugged trail" part. In a lightweight equipment Troop, you always camp as if it was a backpacking trip, but you need not hike more than a hundred yards from the car. Most 10.5 year old 4' 8" 85 boys can carry 40 lbs for a hundred yards. If not, someone can help him. Kudu

A Troop is not an independent legal entity. As commonly understood, the Troop's equipment is owned by the Sponsoring Organization (SO), so the status of a contribution depends on the SO's status with the IRS. At least as commonly understood. I once heard of a situation where a church decided to pull out of the local BSA Council and run its own outdoor program. Supposedly the Council showed up at the church one day with a truck and a court order to take possession of the Troop's equipment, citing a provision in the BSA's "secret" rules and regulations. Kudu

I thought this forum was to help understand todays BSA program.... Well, let's fix that right now! Rkfrance's situation can be solved within the BSA structure by 1) Fixing the problems at the Troop across the street, or 2) Finding another Troop, or 3) Starting a new Troop. However, others who see the topic "When do you Start a New Troop?" may understand that their problems with Scouting cannot be fixed within the BSA program. They may be reluctant to discuss it here because any criticism of the BSA program is guaranteed to subject them to odd personal attacks about the "GTSS" and accusations of "bashing the BSA" or being a "BSA hater." Well, part of that is human nature, and part of it is the result of the BSA's special rights as a government-established religious monopoly on Scouting. If Congress established McDonald's with a similar monopoly, then any admission that you preferred broiled hamburger (or vinegar on your fries, eh?) would subject you to personal attacks on your character, accusations of "bashing McDonald's" or being a "Burger hater," and sneering comments about how broiled burgers are merely a historical curiosity and not to be allowed in today's modern world. Be that as it may, there are good reasons for some people to consider Scouting programs other than the BSA. These alternative programs can be divided into two categories, 1) Associations such as the "Royal Rangers," the "Navigators," and the WFIS-NA "Independent Pathfinders" which do not use the term "Scouting" and 2) Associations such as "YouthScouts," "SpiralScouts" or "Baden-Powell Scouts" which use the word "Scouting" to assert that the BSA program is only one corporate spin on the product, and other ways of practicing Scouting may appeal to other customers. The national headquarters of such associations are likely to face decades of litigation, but on the local level you may not feel that impact. And hey, for libertarians, defending freedom from government-imposed monopolies is the American thing to do :-/ A Couple Reasons to Start a New Non-BSA Troop: 1. Traditional Scouting (Pre-1970s Scouting Programs): I list this first only because it is obviously my own favorite. These programs are based on Baden-Powell, not William Hillcourt, and include traditional advancement skills such as signalling, observation, tracking, cooking without utensils, starting a fire with natural materials and only 2 matches, and many other skills found in Scouting for Boys. 2. Religious Objections: Some congregations consider the BSA's interpretation of the Scouting Ideals to be inconsistent with their own deeply-held values. Keeping six-year-olds out of Scouting because their parents won't sign the "Declaration of Religious Principle" is regarded by some as contrary to even the most superficial understanding of the unconditional love taught by Jesus or the limitless compassion of the Buddha. 3. Challenging Program for Girls: Many alternative Scouting programs offer the same program for both boys and girls over 11 years old. However, some of them (such as BPSA-USA) require that female and male Patrols be physically separated so that adult interference in the Patrol System may be kept to a minimum. 4. Local Politics: Most Scouting happens at the local Troop level, and chances are that you will never meet the kind of mean-spirited people that surface in Internet Scouting discussion groups. But some Councils are run by professionals and commissioners that match that description and are proud of it. You simply can not escape them unless you leave the BSA. 5. Monopoly Madness: These are the mindless policies that can exist only in government-sanctioned monopolies protected from the corrective forces of a free market. These are the issues that surface over and over such as the mind-numbingly awful BSA Scout Pants, or the Politically Correct decision to forbid Laser Tag by adding it to the Guide to Safe Scouting. These things may seem trivial to most adults, but I bet if you asked the Scouts in your "boy-led" Troop if they wanted to switch to a Scout Troop with BDUs and laser tag, they would be out the door :-/ Kudu

Scouter.Com is dedicated to the contributions that William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt made to Scouting, see: http://www.scouter.com/features/0290.asp Those of us who offer suggestions as to how Hillcourt's vision of Scouting can be applied to the BSA's program should not be subject to unScoutlike personal attacks. Do you follow the GTSS or do you believe that the old ways are better? The central definition of "Traditional Scouting" refers to the necessity of making changes that reflect advances in 1) Heath & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns (LNT), and 3) Lightweight Equipment. However, not all aspects of the GTSS are based on realistic risk assessment. Likewise, using the GTSS to forbid "Laser Tag" is pure monopoly-mentality political correctness. If you consider debates on such topics to be "BSA bashing," then consider using the squelch feature :-/ And you want to ignore the future, if you wish to live in the past thats fine, but why do you try to sell it as the current BSA program? What exactly do you think Hillcourt had wrong about the Patrol Method? So you consider that breaking rules or ignoring guidelines, is going the extra mile, I am starting to understand you a bit more. OK, if you want to continue discussing me, I suggest that you spin off a new personal-attack "rule breaking" topic so that people looking for positive ideas don't have to wade through your attempts to be hurtful. Than why in wide world of sports do you posts your alternates when posters ask about a BSA Boy Scout troop? I recommend that Scouters who find the BSA's rich history both interesting and useful purchase used copies of Hillcourt's old Scoutmaster handbooks, which are still surprisingly inexpensive. BSA Scouters are on their own in regard to the history of Scouting, because the current handbooks for Scoutmasters contain obvious mistakes that anyone who had read Hillcourt would not make. For instance attributing to Baden-Powell quotations such as "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" or "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!" In your mind do you think they are asking about the Kudu troop? I am promoting William Hillcourt's BSA ideas, not my own. No I believe that the JLT program is a really good program, include NYLT and it becomes a great program, without having to put little twist in it. Then make a positive contribution to the topic by specifying what aspects of JLT and NYLT are especially relevant to forming a new Troop from scratch, rather than attacking the suggestions of other people. Adults trying to show scouts how to be kids has never worked and will never work. Adults showing Scouts how to act like Scouts certainly does work. It is what Hillcourt had in mind when he talked about adult association. This is especially important when you are starting a new Troop and the Scouts do not have older Scouts as role models. In established Troops, a Scoutmaster once a month showing by example how to run a Patrol is more far more useful than telling through abstract theory. I know that scouts will follow other scouts a lot more than adults. When scouts are allowed to show, teach scouts you will get a lot more. I believe that you are confusing advancement with leadership development. Older Scouts (especially Patrol Leaders) strengthen their leadership credibility through patiently teaching Scouting skills to the younger Scouts in their Patrol. However, if you only have one Patrol of 11 year-olds it doesn't work. Even in established Troops, Green Bar Patrol Campouts are useful for allowing new Patrol Leaders to brush up on the Scouting skills that they "forgot," before they are in front of the Patrol they are supposed to be teaching. You get scouts that learn how to lead like scouts not like adults. I am not familiar with NYLT, has the BSA now dealt the Scoutmaster out of training Junior Leaders in favor of some kind of peer-instruction? Times have changed scouts are different now, kids are smarter, and more knowledgeable, I reject the idea that kids are now "smarter" or more "knowledgeable." Do they now have a better command of history, reading comprehension, or mathematics? Were their grandparents less ethical, less concerned about the welfare of others? Were street kids then less "street-wise" than now? the old ways will not keep them interested, as in business you either change or fold. OK, I do admit that this is one area in which I consider the BSA to be dead-wrong: the "business model" idea that Scouting has to "diversify" into pop-culture products in order to maintain its "market share" of some imagined youth culture. You see this reflected in the constant Council flyers about "Scout days" at all of the local sports arenas, and Camporees on the playing fields or on the manicured lawns of public parks. Nothing is more sad than Scouting officials trying to be "hip" and "cool" or whatever it is these days that "hip" and "cool" people call "hip" and "cool" :-/ When I walk into an auditorium full of know-it-all, wise-guy sixth-graders, I recruit them by talking about bears and rattlesnakes, about our rule that they carry matches and a knife in the woods. I talk about how one of our Scouts saved his dad's life using the skills that he learned in Scouts, and that they too can learn the first aid skills that might save the life of someone that they love. All boys want to be heros. I talk about a Patrol of friends setting up their tents in the woods, and cooking their own food over a campfire. I talk about learning how to shoot rifles, shotguns, and bows & arrows. I talk about finding their way through the woods with a map and compass, and steering their canoe down a river deep in the wilderness. The whole point of Scouting is to return to the woods where the skills they need to be comfortable and the values they need to best get along, evoke the same experience unique to Scouting that intrigued their grandfathers when they were boys. Yes, the "old ways" are what we have to offer. Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

The world has changed a little bit since William Hillcourt was involved with boys in scouting. Yes, back then Hillcourt wrote Scoutmaster handbooks that were a thousand (1,000) pages longer than the current edition. This meant that he could devote more pages to the Patrol Method than the total number of pages in the entire current Scoutmaster Handbook. Likewise, he could go into great detail on how to start a new Troop, and how to reorganize a Troop that is not following the BSA program. Human nature has not changed since then, nor has the theory of a well-run Patrol. It is just not as well documented these days. It seems that you want to pick and choose which parts of the old and new parts of the program you want to use, just as I and many others, I think, would like to do. You seem to believe that there is some sort of virtue in remaining ignorant of the 94 years of effort that has gone into the BSA program. But since I am in the BSA I will follow the program, as they want it done. That is nice as far as it goes, but some dedicated Scouters would rather go the extra mile. If I felt like you did, I would not be in the BSA. I have enough integrity to either follow the program or leave or start my own. I have worked with others in developing an alternative national Scouting program, but this topic is about starting BSA Troops, not alternative Troops. For what I consider to be the best program based on Baden-Powell rather than William Hillcourt, see the BPSA-USA: http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/ Yes I know you will say something that I am just a follower of stupid rules. Which may be true but I will follow the rules or leave or try to change the rules in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them. Unlike the "stupid rules" that limit the BSA's Uniform Method, nobody at BSA Headquarters has yet thought of any "stupid rules" about Hillcourt's Patrol Method :-) They just make up stupid misquotations, attributing to Baden-Powell things that were really said by William Hillcourt! You seem to believe that Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" and "Junior Leader Training (JLT)" are somehow incompatible. They are not. The Green Bar Patrol teaches Scouts how to run a real Patrol using the example of the Scoutmaster. JLT teaches abstract leadership skills. In my Opinion you are trying to change the BSA in a disorderly way and disobeying rules, to fit your needs. That is simply an emotional reaction on your part. Exactly what rules have I disobeyed? There is no better way to get a new Troop off to a good, solid start, than by showing by your own example exactly how to run a Patrol Meeting, and exactly how to prepare for and conduct a Patrol Hike and a Patrol Campout. If you put these things off, then Scouts will justifiably believe that Patrol activities are not really essential to Scouting. Kudu

That's not a surprising comment from Kudu considering he is one of the biggest BSA haters we have in these forums. Likewise, be skeptical of people who make unScoutlike personal attacks on others, rather than engaging constructive dialogue on specific Scouting topics :-/ Kudu

If you see a troop that bashes the BSA and only talks about the good old days run to another troop. Likewise be skeptical of phrases like "bashes the BSA" :-/ Kudu

The morning after you heard about your son being attacked. Yeah, boys will be boys, but I've seen bullying go unpunished in Troops where the Scouters and/or members of the Troop Committee are related. The worst-case scenario is when the Charter Representative (CR) is related to the trouble-makers because some Councils do not care how bad the program is, as long as the CR is happy. You could appeal to the Institutional Head, but do you really want to? District Executives have their own motivations for encouraging the formation of new Troops, but first see if there is another Troop in the area that you would want to join. Sometimes a Scoutmaster of a small "Troop in trouble" is just waiting for someone to take over for him so that the Troop does not fold on his watch. Ask your Council's District Commissioners. The second thing to ask in either case is from where will you recruit new Scouts a year from now? If Scouting is not polarized in your area, then don't rule out recruiting in the local public school during school hours. Sometimes the decision is up to the Principal, try to find someone who knows him. Despite popular belief, if you put the right spin on Scouting, about half of an auditorium of sixth graders will indicate that they want to join. Selling their parents on the idea is another matter :-/ See The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm If you have only one Patrol ("or possibly two") start with them, especially if a couple of them appear to be natural leaders. William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, the father of the BSA's Patrol Method, recommended that when starting a new Troop, that the Scoutmaster start with only "The 'Chosen Few'" of the "keenest, most 'regular,' most respected boys" of the "sponsoring institution or the neighborhood." Consider using Hillcourt's method of training called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol." This is a six-month training course in which the Scoutmaster acts as Patrol Leader of his own "Green Bar Patrol" at least once a month to show the Scouts by example how to hold Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, Patrol Campouts, and introduces them to "new" Scout Games, songs, Troop opening and closing ceremonies, and other traditional program elements. See: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Kudu

While I know we might disagree on a lot of things I think almost everyone would tell you to buy the best quality equipment that you can afford. Try first to get it for free. One advantage of car camping is that many people have basements and attics full of heavy camping gear that they never use. Consider submitting to your church's weekly bulletin (and the bulletin-board where you work, and all of the other venues that you can think of) requests for old Coleman stoves & lanterns, sleeping bags, tarps, small tents, winter clothing, hiking boots, pots, pans, and cast iron cookware. Be sure to ask for food dehydrators, which are very useful for making your own backpacking food for Cooking Merit Badge. The more specific you are about what you want, the more you will get. Coleman equipment that does not work can usually be easily fixed with an inexpensive replacement fuel generator. Avoid family-sized tents like the plague. Donate them to a local charity. Be sure to mention receipts for these donated goods. Spend a little time designing a graphically pleasing receipt from generic Scouting clip art, see: http://clipart.usscouts.org/ Whenever we distributed flyers for other Troop fund-raisers, we would head at least one paragraph with wording like, "Only 262 days left to donate your attic full of old camping gear to a worthy cause in time for next year's taxes" :-) Oh, I forgot to mention backpacks. These are especially important if you decide to adopt a lightweight equipment approach to Troop Equipment, see: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm If you ask for them, you may get some for free. I also went to the local distribution centers for the various local charity "thrift stores" and left my name as a buyer of backpacks and Scout Uniforms. The most successful way of obtaining used backpacks, however, is to join local outdoor clubs. Stand up in meetings, tell them who you are, and that you are interested in purchasing old backpacks and other lightweight camping equipment. The going rate for a 1970s backpack in usable condition is $10-20. Be sure to replace the original waist belt with modern 2" webbing & buckle. Every hiker has old equipment. Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

This is one of those rare occasions when FScouter is absolutely correct :-/ As the BSA mistakenly attributes to Baden-Powell, "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!" Kudu

Kaji writes: Not challenging the right of the organization to form if they so choose, but don't the BSA and GSUSA have exclusive use of the term "scout" as per their charters? Just wondering. Actually, in the 1920s the BSA tried to claim exclusive use of the term "Scout" and force the GSUSA to use the term "Guide," claiming that that the Girl Scouts' use of the term caused psychological damage to Boy Scouts :-/ I believe that the Spiralscouts hoped that combining the words "spiral" and "scout" into a new word would not infringe on the BSA's rights, but they received the same form letter as everyone else. As noted in the other thread that Fred started, the case which will set the precedent for Spiralscouts, and for more traditional alternative Scouting associations such as the BPSA-USA, is the "YouthScouts" challenge to the BSA's trademark on the "generic" terms "scouts" and "scouting:" http://youthscouts.org/news.html This case will be heard in San Francisco! If they are successful then the BSA will have to appeal to the 9th Circuit :-/ It will be interesting to see how long it takes libertarian news commentators to understand the implications. The BPSA-USA's "home Troop" Website is: http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/ Kudu

This is likely outside the interest of most persons, but the point is that Judeo-Christian understanding of God (assisted by Greek philosophy) is quite comparable with Indian understanding. They are comparable enough, in my opinion, to share a declaration of religious principle. Really? The BSA's Judeo-Christian Declaration of Religious Principle, asserting that "The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary for the best type of citizenship" does not sound very Buddhist to me. Kudu

Miki101 writes: At this time, Seton was on his way out of the BSA and James West was taking full advantage of it by keeping any of Setons American Indian trappings from the program. However, Setons influence was too great because co-OA founder, Carroll A. Edson, was inspired by a Seton lecture to use Indian lore as a basis for his new Honor Camper Program in 1915. You can see Seton's Woodcraft Indian ceremonies from which the non-Masonic aspects of the OA Ordeal and Vigil were taken, as well as the prototype OA sash and other elements at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/native/index.htm Seton's entire Birch Bark Roll of the Woodcraft League handbook is online there, plus much of his wife Julia Seton's The Rhythm of the Redman: In Song, Dance, and Decoration. If you need a dance or song from the book that is not there, let me know. Additional Inquiry Net Native American resources include a Indian Sign Language dictionary, a book on making Totem Poles, and a number of Native American shelters by Dan Beard. Kudu

The next time I start a Troop from scratch, especially if it is only one Patrol, I will try the lightweight equipment approach. This method of camping is the opposite of car camping with all the heavy Patrol boxes and 20lb propane tanks. Scouts learn to cook on backpacking stoves and to pack what they need in backpacks, even if they are not hiking more than a few hundred yards. When trained in this method from the very beginning, Scouts find it a lot more natural to just put their packs on and march into the woods. An article on lightweight Troop equipment can be found at: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm Lightweight cooking at: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/cooking/lightweight.htm Currently I serve a car-camping Troop. We use those generic $4 storage containers which are about nine times cheaper than Rubbermaid "Actionpackers," and they have the advantage of coming in many different colors, so each Patrol has its own color. Our oldest containers are about six years old now and haven't cracked yet, even in the winter. To keep raccoons out, we place the containers with the food under the ones with the equipment. Stacked two-high they make really good food preparation counters. Each Patrol has its own Troop Quartermaster who ideally removes all of the contents from these storage containers ideally before each campout, and ideally checks off on the "Troop Quartermaster Patrol Equipment Checklist" what equipment they need: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/quartermaster.htm In practice they usually lug more stuff than they need :-/ Kudu

Our society desperately needs youth organizations to give these kids some structure. Many do not feel comfortable in scouts. Sure, we need alternatives to Scouting for those who do not care for the stucture of working on advancement while camping in patrols and wearing uniforms, all in the context of practicing Scouting ideals. But we also need alternative Scouting associations for those whose "discomfort" is not based on these five core "methods," but with the BSA brand of Scouting. Kudu

Make an architectural model. Build a model of a house to a scale of 1/4"=1'0" (50:1 metric). Models are sometimes used in Traditional Scouting to teach Pioneering, see the Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/models.htm A "Woodcraft Cabin" designed by early BSA founder, Ernest Thompson Seton, can be found at: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/shelter/woodcraft_cabin.htm A number of authentic, more primitive (the life-sized versions can be built by boys) early American shelters (including various Native American structures) can be found in early BSA founder Dan Beard's book Shelters, Shacks, Shanties, see: http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/beard/shelters.htm Kudu

I wonder what happened with the BSA threat. Maybe Kudu knows? Everybody gets basically the same form letter. The case which will set the precedent for SpiralScouts, and more traditional alternative Scouting associations such as the BPSA-USA, is the "YouthScouts" challenge to the BSA's trademark on the "generic" terms "scouts" and "scouting:" http://youthscouts.org/news.html This case will be heard in San Francisco! If they are successful then the BSA will have to appeal to the 9th Circuit :-/ It will be interesting to see how long it takes libertarian news commentators to understand the implications. Kudu

Sabattis Scout Reservation...the only drawback to some is the lack of a dining hall. And to some, that is Sabattis' greatest attraction! Nothing will solidify your Patrols faster than a week of Patrol cooking and Sabattis bears! For a subjective account of our last visit to Sabattis, see: http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/1st_year_summer.htm For pics, see: http://www.inquiry.net/625/outdoor/camping/2004-07.htm Finally, for my "Sabattis Bear Song," see: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/instruction/cotton_kills.htm Sabattis is one of our nation's greatest Scout camps, but when we backpack in the Adirondacks we avoid the expense of using it as our base-camp. We pay to park at the Adirondack Mountain Club (ADK), and shower there on our way out. Avoid camping too close to the ADK on your way in and out of the woods. The bears there are very clever. They know exactly what a rope near a tree means, and they will slice it with their claws. If timing dictates that you must camp nearby, then take advantage of the wire provided over Marcy Dam from which bear bags may be hung safely. Also avoid June, which is mud and black-fly season. Oh, and the number of people camping together at night is limited, so your Patrols will have to camp about a mile apart (at night--they do enforce that). If you stay in a lean-to for more than three consecutive nights you will need a free DEC permit, see: http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dlf/publands/bacrule.html My own days of hauling a pack over mountain peaks are over, so I usually usually backpack to the base of Mt. Marcy with the first and second-year Scouts and we take day-hikes up Mt. Marcy and Mt. Algonquin. If you do that, be sure the Scouts pack warm clothing in their day packs, along with their ten essentials. It can be very cold at the summit, even in July and August. The ADK publishes very detailed topo maps (with trail overlays) and trail guidebooks, see: http://www.adk.org/ One of your most lasting memories of backpacking in the "High Peaks Region" of the Adirondacks will be the all-pervasive smell of evergreens and damp earth. Kudu

So why does it trouble you to watch a child take pleasure in torturing an insect? Gern, Don't assume too much :-/ Kudu

However I thought a more in-depth approach would be to discuss the history of the uniform and the importance of wearing it. Some of the very early history can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/index.htm Kudu

As for the answer given by a particular DE in a particular council, that is all nice and such but it doesn't hold any particular weight in any other place or time. Well, obviously it does hold particular weight in other places, since the BSA is a national organization and others have found that unless you are starting a BSA Council Camp, "there is no obligation for a unit (or a group of units working together to put on an outing) to follow the National Camp School standards. The NCS standards only apply when a BSA corporate entity (council) offers a resident camp for a fee (which triggers the application of camp licensing laws in each state)." Holding your own summer camp can be a far more rewarding experience than attending a typical BSA Merit Badge factory summer camp. It is especially beneficial to the Patrol Method. T165Scouter, if you read the accounts at the following URL and find that this is what you have in mind, you may want to discuss it with some of these authors (especially Bob Geier and Cliff Golden) before you ask the wrong Council executive in the wrong way for the wrong information. Message me and I will send you their Email addresses. http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm Be sure to note the links for additional stories listed under "Additional Information." The BSA is filled with professionals that don't really know what they are talking about, and it is best to be armed with the correct information before you meet with someone whose first impulse may be to say "no." Kudu