Kudu

In my district, I don't hear any complaints about the design of the uniform shirt. In some parts of the world the Scout Neckerchief is the only part of the Scout Uniform that a Scout can afford, but even so you can tell that they are Scouts from a distance. We are losing this important universal Scouting icon because the BSA's dress designer moved the neckerchief away from its proper position over the collar so that he could design the shirt to accommodate his fashion sense. In this location the Neckerchief no longer shades the neck or wicks away sweat. Thus it is now a mere fashion accessory and expendable. The current design of the BSA shirt along with the less than half-sized Neckerchiefs is the reason that we no longer have the traditional appearance that is so striking in Norman Rockwell paintings. Personally, I like the overall uniform design much better than the uniform of the 1970's that had the collarless green shirts.... Ouch! Other Scouters report that they did not like the collarless shirts either. I have experimented with cutting the collars off tan shirts and find them a lot more comfortable than tucking them under. As for the contrasting colors, this seems be be closer to Baden-Powell's design, as the following drawings indicate: http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/Info.html Kudu

You might be using the Troop Method if: 10. Your summer camp has a central dining hall rather than Patrol cooking because it makes "Advancement" more efficient. 9. You train Scouts how to be leaders rather than how to run a Patrol. 8. Your most dynamic non-SPL leaders are ASPLs rather than Patrol Leaders. 7. At game time, the SPL lines everyone up and they count off by twos. 6. Your Patrols camp closer than 100 yards apart. 5. Friends are not concerned about being in a different Patrol from their buddies (or haven't noticed). 4. Your Patrol Leaders have never outvoted the SPL in the PLC. 3. You only have one "Troop" Quartermaster, rather than one (qualified) POR Quartermaster per Patrol. 2. You have regular "Troop" elections because allowing Patrols to replace their Patrol Leader when they want is not practical. 1. You would be offended by a Danish cartoon that suggested that the Eight Methods are not all of equal importance :-/ Kudu "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!"

CNYScouter, I can't tell from your description what it is that you think the adults are doing wrong. Sometimes in "Boy Run" (into the ground) Troops the older Junior Leaders don't want to go camping anymore. This is one of the disadvantages of placing too much importance on SPLs & ASPLs. As far as I'm concerned Scouting is all about Uniformed camping Outdoors in Patrols, with Advancement as something to do when you get there. The other four Methods (especially "Leadership Development") are secondary and follow from that primary experience. All a Patrol needs to go camping is a good Quartermaster, hopefully a Patrol Leader, and the proper adult permissions. So if you are looking for a way to get them camping again, why not bypass the SPL, the two ASPLs, the Chaplain's Aid, and the Assistant Chaplain's Aide, and just motivate one or more of the single Patrols and a couple adults to go camping? Two monthly campouts a year is not Scouting, and waiting until you fix the leadership isn't either. Kudu

While I don't necessarily see the problem with this (the boys who held said positions were continually reelected because they got the job done and did it well, after all), what's the take on it from some of the other leaders here? My experience was similar. My first two years of Scouting I was Troop Scribe, responsible for balancing the weekly dues envelopes in a very large Troop. At 13 I became a Patrol Leader for a while, and then SPL for the rest of the time I was in Scouting. My constant rival for the SPL position was a mean-spirited kid who wanted to become a BSA professional and needed SPL on his resume. One weekend my Scoutmaster asked if he could be SPL for the campout, just to get some experience at leadership. To everyone's horror, he ran the campout like boot camp. He eventually transferred to another Troop :-/ To answer your question, I believe both a) competition keeps people on their toes, and b) once you have a proven good leader you should stick with him. Of course other people's reactions will probably reflect their political positions on term limits. I see term limits as artificial. Likewise, I suspect that constant Troop elections are based more on the artificial need for Positions of Responsibility in post-Hillcourt Advancement requirements than what is good for the Patrol Method. We don't hold regular elections in the Troop I serve. The younger Scouts need some guidance, but sometimes I don't hear about elections in the older Scouts' Patrols until one of them tells me he needs a Patrol Leader badge :-) I suppose that all this modern leadership stuff looks good on a resume, but to me the important question is always "what is best for the Patrols?" For that reason I am also against dining halls at summer camps, and abstract leadership courses that teach "how to be a leader" rather than "how to lead a Patrol." Kudu

OGE writes: How Many Quartermasters do you have? Why not one grubmaster for all things food and food preparation, another for all tents and another for all troop equipments,(lanterns, dining flies, etc) Multiple Troop Quartermasters is a good idea. Alternatively you can have one assigned to each Patrol. If you physically separate the Patrols so that the Patrols are truly functioning independently, a reliable Quartermaster is probably more important to a successful campout than the Patrol Leader. A Patrol can limp by with a popularity-contest PL. As long as the Quartermaster provides all of the equipment they need to stay warm, dry, and well fed (and double-checks the food), natural leaders will emerge to do what is necessary. Kudu

gwd-scouter, In the meantime, why not try to recruit the current sixth-graders at the private school? At one time 12 was the minimum age for Scouting, and the extra year of maturity will make your efforts worthwhile. Kudu

A few of us gave a short presentation to 2 fifth grade classes and definitely emphasized the "danger" of wild animals, the thrill of fire building, shotgun shooting, camping and cooking in the wilderness. The guys asked so many questions at the end, we had to cut them off or we'd have been there all afternoon. gwd-scouter, That explosive burst of interest at the end the presentation has always been my experience as well. The belief so common among BSA Scouters and professionals that 21st century kids are somehow different than previous generations is simply false. You are not competing against TV and video games, you are selling real adventure. Each class (this was a local private school) had only about 8-10 boys each but we had 2 show up that night to our regular meeting. Have gotten a few phone calls from other parents asking if they can come next week. From your description it sounds like you relied on sending home flyers with the Scouts. I would suggest that in addition to this, you circulate clipboards with a sign-up sheet that reads "YES! I WANT TO GO CAMPING!" When a presentation goes well, you should be able to get at least half of your audience to sign up. If you are on good terms with the teachers and administrators in this school, perhaps it is not too late to ask the teachers to circulate this sign up sheet among the students who saw your presentation. To convert this initial enthusiasm into actually closing the sale, you really must talk directly to their parents. I always ask if the flyer made it home, and very rarely is that the case. According to William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, this is the unchanging nature of boys and even in the depths of the Great Depression, he recommended spending money on postage rather than depending on Scouts to bring informational fliers home from the Scout meetings :-/ On the sign-up sheet I include columns for their name, phone number, parent/guardian names, and one "interests column" that indicates what part of camping they think they will enjoy most. I also leave wide margins for my own notes about busy signals, answering machines, requests to call back, and notes from my conversations with the parents for future reference. I always start the conversation with the parents with something like "Brandon indicated that he was interested in joining Scouts, and I wondered if you had any questions." After any initial questions, I always mention whatever their son wrote in the "interests column," like "Brandon says that he is really looking forward to hiking, our next hike will be in two weeks!" A New Scouts Patrol has two (2) votes in the PLC (their Patrol Leader and Troop Guide), and knowing the Scouts' initial interests and their parents' reactions can help you to make sure that the PL and TG properly represent their interests in PLC meetings. Finally, calling parents from the "YES! I WANT TO GO CAMPING!" sign-up sheet can provide valuable feedback from the parents of Scouts who won't allow their son to join Scouts. For instance, when I recruit at this time of year, I find that most parents believe that their son is already over-extended and are cutting back on non-academic activities. So I wait until May and sell a summer adventure program. We are planning to hold the 6th grade recruiting at beginning of school year this fall. Why not recruit the boys who are in 6th grade this year? Another Troop had traditionally recruited there and since they also recruited from another middle school, they were asked if they would step back and let us recruit alone. How exactly do they recruit? Do they come in and give a presentation, or do they hand out flyers? More details about our recruiting presentation can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Kudu

I had no problem wearing mine as a scout, but I do not wear one anymore. I am a pretty big guy, and the normal 'stock' size item looks pretty ridiculous on me. We will be going to Kandersteg (Switzerland) this July, and I am told that everyone must wear their 'necker' around all the time to identify your group. I am not sure how this is going to play out. I may make my own custom unit a little larger than the stock size. You might consider asking the PLC to switch to a Traditional Troop Neckerchief in anticipation of your Kandersteg trip. A Traditional Neckerchief is 32" square rather than the BSA ("half-necker") triangular size, and is usually a single color (maybe red in your case). These are the neckerchiefs worn over the collar that you see pictured in Norman Rockwell's paintings of Boy Scouts. The BSA used to make them larger. Anyone know why they are all 'cub' sized now? To save money, of course. But if you persuade a local fabric outlet to sell you a 25 yard bolt of material at their cost, you should be able to make 27 Neckerchiefs for about $2 each. Usually one of the Scouts' mothers or a neighbor will volunteer to hem the sides. For information on how to make your own Traditional Neckerchiefs, see The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief/how_to.htm If you remember the Indian Jones movie in which River Phoenix played young Indiana Jones as a Life Scout, you will see that it was common for Neckerchiefs at that time to be a single plain color without any identifying decorations. However, you can order upside-down triangular patches to sew on the back of the Neckerchief that look really nice. Some Troops special order these to commemorate special trips. A Kandersteg catalog that includes patches (I didn't see any triangular ones) can be found at: http://www.kisc.ch/static/handout/Souvenirs.pdf Guess it's not "traditional" in a scouting sense, but da modern neckerchief ain't nuttin' more than a foo-foo fashion accessory anyway. That has been true for the entire BSA Uniform ever since they decided to hire a dress designer to transform the American Scout Uniform from an outdoor icon into an indoor parlor-Scouting fashion statement. This is especially true for the Neckerchief, which the dress designer moved from its traditional over the collar position, to what he considered to be a more fashionable placement under the collar where it serves as a mere fashion accessory with no practical purpose. Baden-Powell once said the the main function of the Neckerchief was to keep the back of the neck from getting sunburned. Some southern Scouters tell me that it also acts as a wick and keeps you cooler in hot weather, but I prefer the open air myself. A list of 56 uses for the Traditional Neckerchief can be found at: http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief/matching.htm In Troops that "traditionally" choose not to have a scarf - is there any reason why the subject couldn't be brought up for a vote again? You know, let the current group have some say in the policy? Perhaps creating a new tradition? These things go in cycles and depends on peer-pressure. Resqman's idea of making Neckerchief slides might help create a demand for Neckerchiefs. Kudu

Actually you could say Merlyn supports scouting, its the BSA with which he has issues. Yikes! Now I am channeling Kudu If you were properly channeling Kudu, you would point out that the problem with liberals is that they just don't understand that distinction :-/ The problem with the BSA is not its conservative politics or occasional financial scandals. The problem with the BSA is that big government has established it with "special rights" in the form of an absolute religious monopoly on Scouting. Well, almost absolute, in 1924 they tried to block the GSUSA from using the term "Scouts" but were unsuccessful :-/ In free countries like England and Germany, people can pick the kind of Scouting association that they want to join. If you want a full-service Scouting association with full time professionals working in million-dollar buildings in good neighborhoods, private camps, and lawyers to keep out the wrong kinds of people, then $52 per Scout, plus Troop and national fees is a bargain. On the other hand, if you want to pay under $50 (plus insurance) to register an entire Troop, but camp in public or private campgrounds and suffer from not having religious fundamentalists dictate Uniform styles, laser tag policies, and with whom your Troop Committee is allowed associate, then perhaps the "European" all-volunteer model of Scouting that Baden-Powell envisioned would be the most appropriate product that a free market-economy could offer you. Kudu

taamland writes: We plan on going through how to run each aspect of the troop. A Patrol meeting, a Troop Meeting and a PLC meeting. For the Patrol Meeting, be sure to check out William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol." See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Sessions One and Two cover Patrol Meetings. Most JLT courses that I have seen tend to bog down in the theoretical leadership techniques and stray from giving participants any concrete information. I agree. Green Bar is the opposite of theoretical leadership techniques. The Scoutmaster takes the role of "Patrol Leader" of the Green Bar Patrol with the SPL as the Assistant Patrol Leader, and the remaining Junior Leaders as the Patrol Members. Rather than talking about Patrol Meetings, you actually conduct two of them. EagleDad writes: We tried other ideas like handouts and troop made handbooks, but the new SPL PL handbooks worked best because they were official and that seemed to make a difference to the scouts. If you check out the beginning of each session, above, you will see that I translated Hillcourt's original Green Bar reading assignments from Hillcourt's Handbook for Patrol Leaders into the current Patrol Leader's Handbook, as best I could. However I did not attempt to include appropriate page references to the current Senior Patrol Leader's Handbook. If anyone has any suggestions regarding additional reading assignments from these two current handbooks (or the current Scoutmaster Handbook) appropriate for each of the Green Bar sessions, be sure to let me know. Im not a JLT leader anymore, but if I were, I love the movie Master and Commander. That is my favorite JLT movie! I wrote some questions for use in starting a leadership discussion after viewing Master and Commander on a JLT weekend, see: http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm Note also on that page a source for copies of the Master and Commander DVD for as little as $1.95. For some JLT skits, see: http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/skits.htm Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

>>I suspect that when most of us talk about "The Patrol Method," we are really talking about running Troop meetings, and that we mentally discount anything that would not be as equally useful to all Junior Leaders (an ASPL, for instance) as being too "Position specific," and not abstract enough.

If you are just looking for a skit, try the "Birch Bark Plays" at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/native/bbr_plays/index.htm "The Legger Snake and the Googly Frog" was written for boys that age and it is based on an Indian story. This material is from Ernest Seton's The Birch Bark Roll of the Woodcraft League of America which was the first Native American influence on the BSA. It appears here in its entirety. The book was the inspiration of many of the elements of Baden-Powell's program as well, such as Merit Badges, and the very first Scout Games. Follow the "Peer-Level Topic Links" toward the bottom of the page for other related topics: Native Skills Totem Poles Indian Sign Language Indian Ceremonies Indian Dance Indian Songs Birch Bark Dances Birch Bark Songs Birch Bark Plays Indian Games for Boys Kudu

While I was at Klondike this weekend, my Email server filled up and bounced everything. I think that this caused my ability to monitor threads at Scouter.Com by Email to be turned off. How do I reset it? Thanks! Kudu

After reading Kudus vision of a Council level JLT, I must ask; do we need a SM anymore? I don't understand the meaning of that sentence, but I would point out that the big advantage of "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" is that the Scoutmaster himself trains his Patrol Leaders. I should have clarified..in our council, we're told that it is mainly (not solely!) meant for SPL's or those boy who may be SPL's. Yeah, this sounds like the "Troop Method," not the Patrol Method. I've had several people question whether or not a 12 yr old is mature enough to understand it all. A 12yo natural leader can certainly run a Patrol. Albert Einstein once said that if you can't explain the most abstract scientific theory in a way that a 12yo can understand, then you don't really understand that theory yourself. Where exactly does the BSA teach Patrol Leaders how to actually run a Patrol? And more importantly, where exactly does the BSA actually teach Scoutmasters how to teach a Patrol Leader how to actually run a Patrol? I suspect that when most of us talk about "The Patrol Method," we are really talking about running Troop meetings, and that we mentally discount anything that would not be as equally useful to all Junior Leaders (an ASPL, for instance) as being too "Position specific," and not abstract enough. The BSA thus sacrifices the Patrol Method to the efficiency of the "Leadership Development" Method in Junior Leader Training, in the same way that most summer camps sacrifice the Patrol Method (in the form of Patrol cooking) to the efficiency of the "Advancement Method" (making sure that the Patrol Method does not get in the way earning lots of Merit Badges at summer camp). Kudu

Try adapting "Ben Hunt's Klondike Sled Plan," which is a lashed sled. See The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/gear/sleds/index.htm "I made these drawings from a real honest-to-goodness Klondike sled brought here from Alaska. It is fastened together with both screws and rawhide lashings and is sturdy, yet flexible for rough going. Working from these drawings you can alter to suit conditions and materials and still retain the general lines. This sled was made of ash. Oak or birch will work equally well, and good net twine can be used for lashing and later treated with boiled linseed oil." In Traditional Scouting, Scouts sometimes build a model of a pioneering project first to get an idea of how things might go together. Be sure to send me a photo so I can add your bamboo sled to the collection! Kudu

For lists of Boy Scout camps by state, check out Scouter.Com's Website: http://www.scouter.com/compass/Where_To_Go/BSA_Camps/ Kudu

Dan writes: There are presentations such as, Preparing your plans, Resolving Conflict, Leading yourself and so on, but do you not think these are good tools for a leader? Sure. As long as they are not too abstract and involve realistic role-playing. If you want to staff this summer, you had better call now! We have already had 2 meetings, for the course in June. Our's is in August. I would like to see Patrol leaders be responsible for the patrols advancement, as you have said before. I see this as the Patrol Leader monitors what the other members of the patrol needs, and take this to the PLC, so that the PLC can include the teaching of the skills at a meeting or a campout by a troop instructor. Are we thinking along the same lines here? In Hillcourt's Patrol Method, the Patrol Leader does the instruction. Some of this can be in Patrol Meetings. He can even organize a Patrol outing (maybe a hike) that does not depend on the rest of the Troop. For me, it really depends on the personalities involved. If the PL's election is the result of a popularity contest, I may not grant him authority to sign off, and in that case it is handled by the Troop Guide (TG). The TG has a vote on the PLC so that he can influence the scheduling of training events. You have wrote about the Patrol Leader signing off of advancements, What does this leave the Troop Instructor to do? Again, it depends on the personalities involved. When we use Troop Instructors, they work under the supervision of the Troop Guide. The Instructors instruct and the TG tests and signs off. At one time the TG was appointed by the SM, not the SPL. I consider the TG and the Quartermasters to be very important offices and make my influence felt in their appointment. Kudu

Prairie_Scouter, I also posted to the "Girls in Boy Scouts" thread some additional historical information about how girls fit into Baden-Powell Scouts. Like religion, this is an area of Scouting in which B-P was too progressive for his times. This post also contains information about "Independent Pathfinders," a generic Baden-Powell program. Independent Pathfinding is strictly a "do-it-yourself" endeavor, and I include it mostly because it offers information about the Sections for younger ages. See: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=120983&p=1 Kudu

Prairie_Scouter writes: Ok, so I'm kind of confused. I visited a website about the Baden-Powell Scouts. They say that their organization is based on the teachings and writings of Lord Baden Powell. Yes, I can see the obvious differences and similarities, but there's some history here, I suppose, that I'm missing. If (and maybe I'm assuming wrongly here) BSA is based on the teachings and writings of Baden-Powell, and Baden-Powell Scouts says the same thing, how did they end up going down different paths? Mostly because of the early conservative Christian influence of the YMCA and, as Kahuna hints, the iron fist of James West which transformed BSA Scouting into a professional monopoly corporation rather than the all-volunteer movement that B-P envisioned. Baden-Powell Scout programs (BPSA) are based on B-P's Program as it was practiced while he was still alive. It allows changes primarily only for advances in 1) Health & Safety 2) Environmental Concerns (LNT), and 3) Lightweight Materials. A few of the differences between the BSA and the Baden-Powell program are as follows. 1. ADVANCEMENT Tenderfoot through First Class was, in the beginning, similar in many ways. Compare the advancement requirements with the early BSA handbooks with the following URL: http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/index.htm Currently, a few of the differences in Tenderfoot-First Class advancement are: a) Observation: These include Kim's Game, and Tracking requirements such as "Follow a minimum one mile of Woodcraft Signs in about 25 minutes." b) Signalling: Surprisingly, Morse, semaphore, manual alphabet (American Sign Language), and Indian Sign Language were not part of the program in England, but were used in B-P's program elsewhere in the British Empire while B-P was alive, and are therefore included in the BPSA program in other countries including the USA. c) Retesting: B-P Scouts are retested on the Tenderfoot requirements as the second to the last requirement of Second Class, and retested on the Second Class requirements as the second to the last requirement for First Class. The retesting is done by the Patrol Leader and can take the form of helping the PL teach these skills to other Scouts. d) Expedition Requirements: These journeys are the final test for each Advancement Award. They are planned by the Scouts being tested and are unaccompanied by adults. BPSA-USA has modified the First Class Journey to include two adults who "shadow" the Scouts from a distance, but do not interact with them in any way except in an emergency. e) No Scoutmaster Conferences or Boards of Review: These exist in Baden-Powell's program only as a Tenderfoot and Second Class interview with the Scoutmaster to discuss the meaning of Scout Law, and a Tenderfoot and Second Class review by the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders' Court) as to how the Scout is working out in his new Patrol. 2. IDEALS a) Scout Law: i) B-P's Scout Law is expressed in sentences rather than single words. This makes the meaning of some Laws a little different, for instance "Kind" vs. "A Scout is kind to animals," and "Cheerful" vs. "A Scout smiles and whistles under all difficulties." ii) The BSA added two Laws, "Brave" and "Reverent" which are not part of B-P's Scout Law. b) Scout Promise: i) The "Three Points": BSA added "To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." This made it necessary to change the BSA's Three Points into: 1) Duty to God, Country & Scout Law; 2) Duty to Others; 3) Duty to Self. The Three Points of Baden-Powell's Scout Promise are the literal Three Points: 1) To do my duty to God and my country; 2) To help other people at all times; and 3) To obey the Scout Law. ii) Outlanders: The Promise was reworded for cultures that do not recognize a duty to a king and/or the god named "God." 3. PATROL SYSTEM B-P's Patrol System was not used in the BSA until the late 1920's. Prior to what we now call "The Eight Methods," Scoutmastership was based on the "Six Principles of Boy-Work," most likely a YMCA theory. The Scoutmaster divided the Troop up into Patrols by height & weight, social class, or one of the other official BSA "Grouping Standards." "If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight. This standard will doubtless become the real basis of all groupings in the future, but as yet it needs more demonstration in order that the various classifications may be made accurately." The BSA's Six Principles of Boy-Work were the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's Patrol System: "First, there must be a clear plan well thought out, progressive in its stages with an aim for each stage. In other words no man need try to work with a group of boys unless he knows what he wants to do, not only in outline but in detail. He must have these details in mind and so well worked out in his thought knowing exactly what comes next....as to be master of the situation at all times and to be the recognized leader....That is to say, he should tell the boys what the game is and how it is to be played, getting their approval and agreement to get in on the deal [emphasis added]." The BSA instructed the "Scout Master" to undermine the Patrol Leader's authority by delegating to the group and not to the Patrol Leader: "Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan [emphasis added]." For these and other excerpts from the BSA's first Handbook for Scout Masters, 1st Edition (1913), see: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm The lack of youth leadership in the early BSA accounts for some of the differences in BSA and Baden-Powell terminology. In most of the world "Tenderfoot, Second Class, etc, are referred to as "Awards," and a Scout's or Scouter's leadership position is referred to as his "Rank." William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt is called the father of the BSA's Patrol Method because he brought Baden-Powell's Patrol System with him from Denmark. One difference between his system and Baden-Powell's system is that B-P appointed the Patrol Leaders and the Troop Leader (SPL). In Hillcourt's system, the Patrol elects the Patrol Leader, and the Patrol Leaders elect the SPL. 4. UNIFORMS In the beginning both the BSA and B-P Scout Uniforms were designed primarily for the outdoors, and were something that boys actually wanted to wear. a) Class A i) Hat: BPSA hat is what we call the "campaign hat." Hats are not required, but that is the only hat allowed to be worn with the Class A Uniform. ii) Shirt: Awards are placed in different positions rather than on one pocket as in the BSA. They all remain on the shirt except that First Class replaces Second Class, and Bushman's Cord replaces Scout Cord. Public Service Proficiency Badges are worn on the left arm, and Scoutcraft Proficiency Badges are worn on the right arm. Senior Scout Proficiency Badges replace the equivalent Scout Section Proficiency Badges as they are earned. Diagrams can be found at: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/placement.htm Some photographs at: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/index.htm iii) Neckerchief: 32" X 32" square. iv) Pants: Dark blue BDUs. The color of B-P's Scout Pants. Seems like the main differences have to do with the discriminatory practices of BSA, and some things having to do with what look likes a greater respect for nature in the Baden-Powell Scouts. How is that it that they diverged on these things? It is the "main difference" only to American eyes. The Chief Commissioners of both the BPSA-UK and the British Boy Scouts (a conservative Christian association) tell me that these anti-discrimination policies reflect the growth of the influence of the EU on English human-rights legislation. You would be wrong to assume that these policies are unique to the BPSA. As far as I know, most (if not all but the BSA) WOSM and WFIS Scouting associations in the Western world do not discriminate except for "Duty to God." However, North American BPSA associations have optional "Outlander" Promises and some WOSM associations have "grand-fathered" BP-era Promises that do not include "God." Despite his fame as a military general, B-P was born into perhaps the most influential religious-progressive family in England. See: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Kudu

Hoi, Monique, Hoe gaat 't? :-) If you plan to visit Niagara Falls, Camp Stonehaven is very close! See, http://www.inquiry.net/625/outdoor/camping/locations/stonehaven.htm For reservations and pricing, contact the Greater Niagara Frontier Council: http://www.gnfc-bsa.org/ Kudu

Two "European-style" Scouting programs open to both girls and boys will soon be available to Americans. One is "Independent Pathfinders," an American program offered through the North American "World Federation of Independent Scouts" (WFIS-NA) based in Canada. The other is the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) based in Texas. Both programs use Baden-Powell's Scouting program, in which a sponsoring organization's unit called a "Group." A Group is divided into various "Sections," typically "Beavers" or "Otters" for ages 5-7; Timber Wolves for ages 8-10; Pathfinders for ages 11-13 or 14; Senior Pathfinders for ages 13-18; and Rovers for over age 17 or 18 with no upper age limit. Independent Scouting offers all age Sections. In this program, a Troop may be all male, all female, or mixed. For the American editions of the various Section handbooks and the rules & regulations, called "Policy, Organization, and Rules" (PO&R) see: http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/ The BPSA-USA will initially offer only the following Sections: "Scouts" ages 10&1/2 - 13, "Senior Scouts" ages 13-18, and "Rovers" ages 18 and over. BPSA-USA Groups may have a male Troop and/or a female Troop. These Troops can meet and camp together or separately, but they must be able to function independently of each other. BPSA-USA is based strictly on the Patrol System which requires the least amount of adult interference possible, therefore absolutely precluding mixed Patrols of boys and girls. Some details can be found at: http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/ and the UK version at: http://www.badenpowellscouts.org.uk/ Some Sponsoring Organizations currently sponsor both a BSA Troop and a Baden-Powell Rover Crew for people over 18. Likewise it would be possible for a Sponsoring Organization to sponsor a BSA Troop for its boys, and a BPSA-USA Troop for its girls. To prove that the programs are equitable, your sponsoring organization might stage a "Girls Against the Boy Scouts Traditional Scouting Skills Competition." The girls would have the edge here, since this program still uses all of the required Scouting skills that were "modernized" out of the BSA program, including the ability to follow a mile-long trail of Woodcraft Signs, Kim's Game, and Signalling (Morse, Semaphore, and/or Indian Sign Language or ASL). And since retesting of the previous award's abilities is required to pass Second and First Class, the girls' retention of other Scouting skills (like remembering how to tie the sheepshank) might stay with them longer than the boys as well. Of course, some other countries scouting organizations dont have a Cooking Merit Badge or Proficiency Badge. Typically Baden-Powell programs have two Cooking Proficiency Badges: "Cook" for Scouts, see: http://www.kudu.net/traditional/badges/cook.htm And "Leading Cook" for Senior Scouts, see: http://www.kudu.net/traditional/badges/senior/index.htm Also, "Leave No Trace" or Low Impact Camping, can be thrown out, as some European Scouting units set up a small village in the camping areas. That may or may not be true for WOSM associations, but American Traditional Scouting Associations include LNT. Independent Pathfinders First Class requirement #1 reads "1. Camp as a Pathfinder for at least 12 nights. Explain the principles of the "Leave No Trace" program." The BPSA-USA incorporates LNT into all outdoor advancement requirements, for instance 2nd Class requirement #1: 1. Camp with your Patrol for a minimum of ten nights outdoors. Explain how you used "Leave No Trace" principles to minimize the impact of your campsites on the local wildlife and environment. Keep a detailed camp logbook and show it to your Patrol Leader. On another note, some countries have many different Scouting organizations, but only the first official Scouting Organization in each country is invited to the World Jamboree. There are alternative World Jamborees for non-WOSM members. This point just to say, the BSA has evolved into our current program, and we seem to be pretty darn good program right now. It is a great program but not for everybody, girls for instance. Boys and girls learn differently, they play differently, and they interact with each other differently. In the BPSA-USA model, boys and girls form separate Troops which may or may not meet together. The program is identical. I think the entire scouting experience would have to be changed to accommodate a girls' interests as well, and that would diminish Lord Baden-Powell's vision. Baden-Powell had great empathy for girls who aspired to be women with outdoor capabilities (he eventually married one). He initially spoke very favorably of girls who formed Patrols using his book Scouting for Boys: "In fact as early as 1907, in his first Boy Scouts' Scheme pamphlet, he had described Scouting as the basis 'for an attractive organization and valuable training for girls'. In 'The Scout' in May 1908, he asked rhetorically under his own name" 'CAN GIRLS BE SCOUTS?' and replied firmly, 'I think girls can get just as much healthy fun out of Scouting as boys can...and prove themselves good Scouts in a very short time.' By September 1908 his enthusiasm for Girl Scouts had not diminished. 'I have had several quite pathetic letters from little girls asking me if they may share the delights of a Scouting life with the boys. But of course they may! I am always glad to hear of girls' patrols being formed...' This contrasts strangely with the official historian's [Rose Kerr] contention that, from the beginning, Baden-Powell thought it 'obvious that the girls' movement...must be run separately from that of the boys...and find a name of its own'. "Until now, he has never been credited with having initially envisaged a programme virtually identical for boys and girls. Since Baden-Powell's regimental days, he had urged men to learn the traditionally feminine skills of cooking and sewing. For the daughters of leisured families to learn to do the same, so that they would not have to depend upon servants for their very survival, seemed sound common sense to him. And if Scouting could confer character upon men, why should it not do the same for women who, in his opinion, were unnecessarily mollycoddled and therefore ruined as companions for men? They needed social graces and more of Olave's [b-P's wife]sporting and outdoor capabilities [from Baden-Powell by Tim Jeal]." In this (as in other topics) B-P was too progressive for his time. Social condemnation over the "coarsening of young ladies" forced him to invent a watered-down program called the Girl Guides. His sister Agnes was blamed for going too far in this direction, and this became a factor in the messy business of taking it away from Agnes and giving it to Olave, as detailed in a chapter on the subject of girls and Scouting in Jeal's biography: "To blacken Agnes's reputation further, Olave unblushingly wrote about [Agnes's] 1912 'Handbook' as if her husband had never had anything to do with it. 'Robin and I called it 'The Little Blue Muddly', ' she wrote in her autobiography. Muddles there undoubtedly were, but largely because a Movement based upon adventure had through no fault of Agnes's been watered down to suit the cautious inclinations of influential Edwardians. Agnes had demonstrated considerable skill in sitting on a far from stable fence, buffeted on one side by the suffragettes and on the other by reactionaries." Kudu

Dan, From your description, NYLT appears to be a Council-level nuts & bolts training course. As far as I am concerned this is far superior to spending a week learning abstract stuff like "11 Leadership Skills" or the "One Minute Manager." I wrote: Does it teach new Patrol Leaders how to run a Patrol Meeting? To which you answered: Yes, but I am not sure if your ideas what a patrol meeting is the same as mine. A Patrol Meeting is a gathering of the members of a single Patrol outside of the weekly Troop meeting or monthly campout. In William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Patrol Method, the Patrol Meeting is where the Patrol works on Advancement, plans its Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts, plans & performs good deeds, and rehearses stories, songs, and "stunts" to be performed for the entertainment of other Patrols at Troop events. "Stunts" are funny or serious "campfire ceremonies," see: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/stunts/index.htm But wouldn't this [Advancement] be the job of the Troop Guide or Instructor? In Hillcourt's Patrol Method, the Patrol Leader guides the Advancement of his Patrol members from Tenderfoot through First Class. Signing off requirements is one of the signs of a Patrol Leader's authority. I use both methods, depending on the talent of available Junior Leaders. An Eagle Scout sometimes makes a great Patrol Leader for a Patrol of new Scouts. If none of the older Scouts want to be a full time Patrol Leader of a group of sixth-graders, then a Troop Guide is the best way to go. In our Troop, a Patrol of new Scouts is not split up later. Hillcourt's Green Bar Training appears to differ from NYLT in that "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" is 1) A troop-based course run by the Scoutmaster, and 2) Is primarily concerned with teaching Patrol Leaders how to run a a) Patrol Meeting, b) Patrol Hike, and c) Patrol Campout. See: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm I would note that NYLT requires a week of time and probably costs as much as a week of summer camp, whereas the Green Bar Patrol can meet once a month before PLC meetings for six months (plus one Saturday for the Patrol Hike, and one weekend for the Patrol Campout). The hike you describe sounds more like a backpacking campout than an actual Patrol Hike. You indicate that NYLT includes a campout, is it planned by the PLC or by the the Patrol? There are plenty of theories about why Scouts do not usually hold Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts. I would submit that it is because we do not train Patrol Leaders how to do that. You get what you train for. All things considered, NYLT looks like a good, solid training course and I might volunteer to staff it this summer to get a closer look. Kudu

Reading your questions on NYLT, the answers to almost all of your questions is yes. I would like to do a spin off to answer your questions if you and johndaigler do not object. Plase do, Dan! This is very good news. Rick

Apparently I should go back to my old vertically-striped referee shirt! It seems this new one with the concentric circles is sending the wrong message! The Scouter.Com Moderator Team should take a good long hard look at their inability to act decisively. At the very least, people should be required to spin their personal attacks into a new "Issues and Politics" topic or face a month suspension. And note that this is the second time that FScouter has introduced "hate" into this thread. I should let that go unanswered? Kudu

Plaidfro, I think that EagleInKY gives some good advice. As a side-note to give you some historical perspective, in most parts of the world there is no "ASPL" and the powers of the "SPL" are secondary to the leadership needs of strong and efficient Patrols. The position of ASPL was invented by the BSA in the middle golden era of Scouting for use only in very large "mega-Troops," where a single SPL could not manage so many Patrol Leaders. As Scouting's numbers began to decline, the BSA invented a new "Method" called "Leadership Development," which required holding a "Position of Responsibility (POR)" for advancement. After that the POR of ASPL eventually morphed into a manager of the appointed positions such as Quartermaster, Librarian, Scribe, Historian, etc. In a small Troop with a limited pool of leadership talent, it is certainly more important to have a strong natural leader in the position of Patrol Leader than as ASPL. We are not planning on 2 patrols for the boys ages 12-14. What do you mean? The answers to your other questions depend on the number of Patrols in your Troop, and since you are in Utah your Troop may be structured differently by age than elsewhere. Having two Patrols has a number of advantages, especially if most of your Scouts turn out consistently for the monthly campouts. If that is true for your Troop, then the Scouts should divide themselves up so that friends will not be split up when the Patrols camp in different areas. William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt (the father of the BSA Patrol Method) recommended that during a weekly meeting the boys play a game, first dividing themselves up into two groups as best they can without counting off by twos. After the first game you explain that Patrols are like teams, and the two present teams will be the new Patrols. Then explain that they are now going to play a second game, and the Scouts should change sides now if they want, so that they can camp with their friends on campouts. It is nice but not necessary that the Troop be divided evenly into two Patrols. Be flexible about switching Patrols for a month or so, but let them know that you will be firm about not letting the members of one Patrol camp with another Patrol thereafter. On the other hand, if few Scouts turn out for campouts, you might want to stick with one Patrol (as your post seems to indicate) until you solve that problem, rather than forming an "ad hoc camping Patrol" every month. Remember that although "the more the merrier," there is nothing wrong with camping by Patrols even when only two members of a Patrol show up. For sure we will have a SPL but should we also have a PL? Should we have a SPL, ASPL, PL, and APL? If the Patrol Method is your top priority, as it should be, then the leadership positions most critical to your success are SPL, PL, and Quartermaster. A good SPL or PL will make sure that the Scouts will be warm and dry, and a good Quartermaster will work with the cooks to make sure they have all of the food and equipment they need. The quickest shortcut to the Patrol Method is physically separating the Patrol campsites as far as you possibly can while still maintaining order & safety. When their Patrol Leader and Quartermaster thus on their own can insure that the Patrol is comfortable and well fed, the Patrol Method will follow nautually and seemingly without effort on your part. One of Hillcourt's methods worth considering is the "period of probation." This is a time-lag between the election and when the Patrol Leader is formally sworn into office. If it turns out that their newly elected leader is not very good at keeping them comfortable and well fed, then they can hold another election based more on natural leadership abilities than popularity. "In all instances, the appointment of the Patrol Leader should not immediately follow his election or selection. It should be definitely understood that he has to prove his mettle before the appointment is forthcoming. For this reason it is advisable to institute what might be called a "period of probation" during which the Scout is given the chance to prove that he is worthy of the high office of Patrol Leader. This period may be of one month or six weeks' duration, and should seldom be longer [Handbook for Scoutmasters, 3rd Edition, pages 184-186]." Consider a "Patrol Leader's Promise Ceremony" to mark in a special way this appointment after the Patrol Leader has proven his mettle, see: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/leaders_promise.htm "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!"--Roland Phillips Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)