Kudu

"Troop Leader" is the term used in most of the world for what we call the "Senior Patrol Leader," and the Patrol Leaders serve as the assistant Troop Leaders. When your COR was a Scout, the "Patrol Leaders' Council" was called the "Troop Leaders' Council." With five Scouts, you just need a Patrol Leader, not an SPL or (God forbid) an Assistant SPL :-) I am worried because the CO rep is very hands off and he will not be attending any meetings. He says that is what the troop leader is for. During the two World Wars some Troop Leaders/Senior Patrol Leaders did run their Scout Meetings without adult supervision :-) As everyone else has said, get to training! The BSA has some good videos that show how a BSA Troop and its Committee is supposed to work. Most Council offices will loan them to you for free. Kudu http://kudu.net/

acco40 writes: Kudu (Mr. Horn?) - If one uses a patrol of "peers" having a PL sign-off can become problematic. Yes, that is why I do it more by personality than by a set policy. Making sure that advancement standards are high is more important than some consistent rule about who is authorized to sign off. Age-peer Patrols of 6th and 7th graders are problematic in many ways, with discipline being the chief problem. Sometimes a 7th-grader can actually keep his whole Patrol more or less on track, but that is rare because class-clowns tend to win popularity contests in a pure democracy :-/ That being said, most 12 year-old First Class Scouts can instruct a peer or two at a time, and can test individually. One way to start is to use a "slash sign-off" trial period. When a newly authorized Scout signs-off he places a diagonal slash in the sign-off space with his name above the slash. A second approved Scout spot-checks it and counter-signs, or it waits for the Scoutmaster Conference. Even when it is necessary for an adult to do the instructing, I like to have Scouts do the testing and sign-off. Kudu http://kudu.net/

Apparently reactions were mixed :-/

CalicoPenn is correct, "reverent" was never part of Baden-Powell's Scout Law. Someone once asked B-P why there was so little "God" in Scouting to which he replied, Scouting is all about God. Of course B-P was somewhat of a pantheist and found his God in "Service to Others" and the "Religion of the BackWoods," "The man who has been knocking about the world, the man who has tasted danger and faced death, the man, in fact, who has seen life in the better sense of the phrase, is generally deeply religious. But his religion would not be recognized by some; it is unorthodox --- it has not been formulated by man, but is the natural outcome of his constant communing with Nature. He probably could not define it himself, because it has no doctrine, no ritual." See: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm Is the scout law in order of importance? I believe that he considered some laws to be more important than others, with the first law being the most important. Baden-Powell Scout Law is more difficult to learn that the BSA list of single words, not only because each law is a sentence, but Scouts are also required to learn the commentary as well. You can get some idea of the importance that he attached to each law by reading this commentary. Consider the 1908 text for "A SCOUT'S HOUOUR IS TO BE TRUSTED" (caps in original) which reads in part, "If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge, and never be allowed to wear it again--he loses his life." Being "cheerful" was serious business too. The 1911 commentary for "A SCOUT SMILES AND WHISTLES under all circumstances" read in part, "The punishment for swearing or using bad language is for each offence a mug of cold water to be poured down the offender's sleeve by the other Scouts. It was the punishment invented by an old British Scout, Captain John Smith, three hundred years ago." For an easy to read comparison chart of the history of Scout Law commentary in the UK and the BSA, see: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/scout_law/chart.htm Kudu http://kudu.net/

One advantage of standing up for what you believe is that if you don't directly confront people IRL, sometimes they quietly acknowledge off the record that they agree with you. This is not only true for some people working in my local Council office, but I have found it in the belly of the beast itself, Irving Texas. It was a BSA professional many years ago who first recommended that I read Tim Jeal's biography of Baden-Powell. It was that recommendation that put the influence of Baden-Powell's father and the spiritual-progressive movement on the history of Scouting in perspective for me. Those of us who do not agree with the essentially fundamentalist religious polices of the Boy Scouts of America must decide individually what compromises we are willing to make. I draw the line at staffing Council training courses in which religious policy is discussed, so I only volunteer to teach outdoor sessions. Before it was a required course, I was the first person in my Council to push for offering the pilot Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (IOLS) course. I was the course director for a few years, but resigned after the spotlight on Darrell Lambert's admission in his local IOLS course made the religious session in our own IOLS a place for volunteers to vent. When I wear the BSA Uniform, I am silent about policy with which I disagree. Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

What do you guys think are the most important qualities [of leadership]? The Scouts who follow a good leader are able to keep themselves well fed, dry in a rainstorm, safe, warm, and always cheerful. That's about it, the rest is padding. Think of what you have experienced with your own five senses (not from your training) and make a list of all the tiny but real details of what over the years you have seen, heard, felt, smelled, and tasted when your Scouts were unaware of your leadership. When you have at least ten real and not abstract moments that reflect that the boys under your leadership had bonded as a team (if only for a few hours) and had taken over leadership themselves without even realizing it was due to your light-handed touch and ability to step back at the right time, then all of that abstract "leadership" theory stuff will write itself. Start with your senses and not with your thoughts. Kudu

Charles Manson, The Columbine duo, Jeffrey Dahmer Gee, what does it take to get a bar fight started here in the land of Friendly, Courteous & Kind?

Do you mean if I had it to do over again, would I remain silent about the ranger's decision to shoot Air Bud so that I would be perceived as a team player? :-/ Kudu

?

Can a person be an Agnostic Scout or Scouter? To get back to Bobanon's original question, I found another BSA URL that specifically states that "Scouting" does not accept atheists and agnostics as adult volunteer leaders: http://www.bsalegal.org/dutytogo-155.htm "Policies "Youth and Adult Volunteers "Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. Accordingly, adult volunteer leaders of Boy Scouts of America obligate themselves to do their duty to God and be reverent as embodied in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, and the Declaration of Religious Principle. Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys. Because of Scoutings methods and beliefs, Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as adult volunteer leaders." Bobanon also wrote: I believe there may be a higher power, but not a personal god. As far as a personal god goes, this same URL also includes the full DRP, rather than the "excerpt" found on all volunteer applications. My reading of the plain meaning is that you are required acknowledge that belief in a personal god who runs the universe is necessary to being the "best kind of citizen." This does not specifically bar membership to those who do not believe in a personal god, it just requires that they acknowledge that they (and everybody else who does not worship a personal god) are not the "best kind of citizens." The next sentence reads "No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them." The plain meaning of that sentence is that children are to be told that people who do not worship a personal god are not the "best kind of citizens." The sentence following that is the one most often quoted by moderates to prove that the BSA is not so bad really: "The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training." My reading of that sentence is that the "absolutely nonsectarian attitude" of the BSA is conditional on agreement with the previous sentences. That being said, I have never heard of an adult willing to sign this "Declaration of Religious Principle" being challenged unless they say something that reveals that they don't believe in God, or believe that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable. Scouts, of course, may or may not be routinely challenged on a regular basis in Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review. "Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cl. 1 The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law. The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. For those who have not read it, here is a URL for the recent "Save Our Scouts Act" which gives the BSA some relief from recent efforts to enact local legislation to deny use of public facilities to organizations that practice discrimination. http://www.bsalegal.org/downloads/SOSA.pdf Finally, Fishsqueezer wrote: As indicated earlier, I emailed the council office to request a copy. Within a few hours they offered to copy and mail me all 3 books of bylaws. If it is that easy to get a copy then they hardly count as secret. As soon as I read that, I also E-mailed my council and requested a copy. I was told that my request had been forwarded to the Scout Executive for his consideration. So this does signal either a change in policy, or a change in how the discretion of the Scout Executive is interpreted. At one time you could simply order copies from the catalog, but when distribution was limited to Scout Executives it was customary to make an appointment to read them. In my case, the SE has not gotten back to me, but that may be because of an incident a couple of weeks ago. The parents of my Scouts complained that their sons came back from the last campout upset that "They are going to shoot 'Air Bud!!!" I called the Council Office to object to the camp ranger's announcement that he was going to shoot as a nuisance the neighbor's golden retriever who goes from campsite to campsite visiting the Scouts on weekends. So, the SE might have decided that it is not a good idea to provide a potential "trouble-maker" with the rules and regulations of the BSA :-/ At any rate, if you are a proven loyal and obedient "team player," you might consider ordering copies of the BSA bylaws, as well as the rules & regulations now while they are available. Kudu

Subject: Lerner on C-Span-2 (book channel) at 4 p.m. EST, Sunday, March 5 On Sunday, March 5 at 4:00 p.m. Eastern and 1 p.m. Pacific time, C-Span -2 (the Book Channel) will replay for the 4th time Rabbi Lerner's talk about his new national best-seller which has received powerful positive reviews in the LA Times and Washington Post. His book: THE LEFT HAND OF GOD: TAKING BACK OUR COUNTRY FROM THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT. Description: Rabbi Michael Lerner examines the psychological needs that underpin the growth of the Religious Right, and calls upon the Democratic Party, Greens, and other progressive social change movements to re-understand the spiritual needs of the American public and let go of the Left's deep hostility to all forms of spirituality and religion. He presents a new theoretical framework for progressive politics--and in addition develops in his book a "Spiritual Covenant with America" that provides a very concrete direction for progressives forces to transform he dynamics of American politics (a plan that his new organization The Network of Spiritual Progressives intends to present to Congress and the public at their Spiritual Activism Conference May-17-20-details at www.spiritualprogressives.org). Lerner's book The Left Hand of God: Taking Back our Country from the Religious Right was a national best-seller this past week, and is available in bookstores everywhere and on line at Amazon. com. The event presented in C-Span-2 was hosted by American University in Washington, D.C. at the beginning of his current book tour, which will bring him to speak in the next few weeks in Portland Oregon, Miami, Washington D.C., Atlanta, Los Angeles, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New York City, Santa Fe, Albuquerque, Toronto, San Diego, Madison, Raleigh and Durham, North Carolina, and Amherst Massachusetts (details at Current Thinking section of www.tikkun.org). Author Bio: Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun magazine (www.tikkun.org) author of 11 books, co-chair with Sister Joan Chittister and Cornel West of the Network of Spiritual Progressives (www.spiritualprogressives.org) and rabbi of Beyt Tikkun synagogue which holds services on both sides of the Bay (in San Francisco and Berkeley: www:beyttikkun.org). He was described by Utne Reader as one of America's 100 most significant visionaries and by one reviewer as "America's most significant prophetic public intellectual."

Perhaps we should spin this topic off to a new thread. Kahuna, any predictions as to how many pages this "goldmine of hoopla" will go? :-) Kudu

Miki writes: Yet I also cannot recall (without seeing Jeals citation) whether the dead African girl story is fact or not. Jeal cites E. K. Wade's Piper of Pax (London 1924), page 16. Back to Jeal, I also have read some of The Boy McLaren letters that Jeal cites as his evidence as to an illicit affair. Unfortunately, none have any hint of homosexuality in them. My memory of the chapter is that the allegations of an illicit affair were made by Piers Brendon (Eminent Edwardians) and Michael Rosenthal (The Character Factory), and not by Tim Jeal (as is commonly believed). Jeal writes "In recent years two authors have suggested that Baden-Powell may have been a homosexual. Neither offered any evidence, and both based their supposition entirely upon a shared suspicion that his relationship with Kenneth McLaren might have been a physical one [Jeal, Baden-Powell 1990, page 74]. Jeal devotes eight pages of tight research based on considerable investigative leg-work into Brendon & Rosenthal's allegations and concludes "The facts I have assembled point to a close and long-standing friendship, which ended after 30 years with a second marriage which Baden-Powell could not accept. There is no evidence to justify the claim that the friendship between Baden-Powell and McLaren was physical [Jeal, page 82]. Kudu

Fishsqueezer writes: In the United States, when someone says scouts they think of BSA, not Baden-Powell Scouts or Youthscouts or the British Boy Scouts. Scouts is Boy Scouts of America. Yes, we agree on that. The inability to envision freedom of choice is the sign of a very successful monopoly. Before Martin Luther, when most Europeans said "church" they thought of the Roman Catholic Church. "Church" was the Roman Catholic Church. In the United States, Scouting is run by a self-described "religious organization" which imposes what it calls "faith-based" values (similar to the "faith-based" political values of the radical Christian-right). Namely what it terms the "obligation" to recognize "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings to be necessary for the best type of citizenship, along with other Republican "get out the vote" discrimination policies now associated with the phrase "faith-based values". So I hope that in the years to come, experienced moderate Scouters will leave the convenience of the BSA to help their congregations pioneer new Scouting associations more in keeping with their own values, just as the Puritan dissenters (who decided that the Church of England was beyond reform) left home to settle in New England. The case we are discussing is in the USA, therefore it is the common usage in the USA that is relevant. I just do not see the point that you are trying to make as to the relevancy of the fact that everyone in the United States associates "Scouting" with the monopoly Scouting association. "Common usage" can only establish that a term is already in the public domain and can not therefore be trademarked as a single word. "Football," for instance. The term "Scouting" was in common use long before the BSA was invented. According to the BSA's own official history, soon after the publication of Scouting for Boys, Boy Scout Troops began to spring up all over the United States. Local churches, military schools, and other youth organizations such as the YMCA often sponsored them. Some of these sponsoring organizations had further aspirations of forming national Scouting movements, and by 1910 these included the publisher William R. Hearst's "American Boy Scout" (later the "United States Boy Scout"); the National Highway Protection Association's "Boy Scouts of the United States;" "The Peace Scouts of California;" the "National Scouts of America," formed by a military school in Manlius, NY; and "The YMCA Scouts" (William D. Murray, History of the Boy Scouts of America, page 28). Therefore, I believe that the BSA's claim to exclusive use of the terms "Scouts" and "Scouting" are not based on regular trademark laws, as you seem to imply, but on their interpretation of Section 7 of the Federal Charter which reads: "Sec. 7. That said corporation shall have the sole and exclusive right to have and to use, in carrying out its purpose, all emblems and badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases now or heretofore used by the Boy Scouts of America, in carrying out its program, it being distinctly and definitely understood, however, that nothing in this act shall interfere or conflict with established or vested rights [emphasis added]." And note also: "Sec. 9. That Congress shall have the right to repeal, alter, or amend this act at any time" [emphasis added, William D. Murray, History of the Boy Scouts of America, page 98]. I heard that in the early 1960s the BSA filed a legal action against the International Harvester's "Scout" claiming trademark violations. Apparently that did not work out for them any better than their 1924 attempt to force the GSUSA to use the term "Guide" in place of "Scout". Kudu

Sure, something along the lines of Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful? Kudu

No one is even REMOTELY suggesting (in THIS thread) that girls ... be awarded achievement or rank awards. Well, I did! If girls are hanging out in the general vicinity and picking up skills, and if you have the time and inclination, you could award them generic advancement awards just for fun. Photographs of the awards (called "ranks" in the BSA) that are available by mail from the UK Rover Explorer Scouts Association can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/generic.htm These badges are based on Baden-Powell's program, so they might not be similar to the USA model (I'm not familiar with the BSA Cub Scout Program). Since it is not official, you could mix and match, or even let the Cubs tag along when the girls' activities are more interesting than theirs :-) Here are the Traditional requirements for the four "Otter Paws" advancement patches for the "Otter" (or "Beaver" in most countries) Section (ages 5-7): Helping Badge (Red Paw) 1. Know about helping others and sharing with others. 2. Know about cleanliness and caring for your clothes. 3. Be helpful around the house. 4. Do a good turn for a relative or a neighbor. 5. Take part in a Kim's Game. 6. Take part in the Message Game. 7. Know how to wash dishes and clean up a table. 8. Take part in a Pack good turn. 9. Visit an Old Folk's Home and help serve tea and cookies. 10. Help set up your meeting hall. Activity Badge (Blue Paw) 1. Be able to throw and catch a ball. 2. Take part in a night hike. 3. Take part in two day hikes. 4. Be able to sing 3 songs. 5. Have an awareness of children with disabilities. 6. Know how to Skip Rope. 7. Take part in team and solo games or sports. 8. Know how to be a good loser and a good winner. Handicraft Badge (Purple Paw) 1. Draw, and color, a scene or event from a story. 2. Draw a picture of your house. 3. Make a Thank You card. 4. Make a model. 5. Make a collage. 6. Collect 25 stamps and mount them in a book. 7. Make two craft items. 8. Tie a Square (reef) knot. 9. Make a bird feeder from a milk jug. 10. Visit a petting zoo. Nature Badge (Green Paw) 1. Know about caring for the outdoors. 2. Name 6 animals that are kept as pets. 3. Make a scrap book about Otters. 4. Collect 10 flowers and 10 leaves and press them. 5. Grow a seed in a water soaked paper towel. 6. Grow a carrot top in water. 7. Take part in a Pack Nature Walk. 8. Take part in a trail clean-up. 9. Plant, and take care of a tree for at least a year Details for Otters (boys & girls, ages 5-7) are at: http://inquiry.net/traditional/otter/handbook/index.htm Details for Timber Wolves (boy & girls, ages 8 - 10) are at: http://inquiry.net/traditional/timberwolf/handbook/index.htm Kudu

Here is the Youthscouts' version of the history of the Scouting Congressional Charters. They appear to use the term "Girl Scouts of America" rather than "Girl Scouts of the USA," but are the rest of the details reasonably accurate? "32. On information and belief, William D. Boyce, a Chicago publisher, incorporated the Boy Scouts of America in 1910 after a meeting with Baden-Powell. Boyce was inspired to meet with Baden-Powell by an unknown scout who led Boyce through a dense London fog the previous year and refused to take a tip for doing a 'good turn.' "33. On information and belief, in or about 1915, Boyce, while still affiliated with Opposer [the BSA], created an independent scouting organization, the Lone Scouts of America, intended to serve boys on farms or in the country who were not reached by the programs of Opposer at the time. "34. On information and belief, the Lone Scouts of America program was and remained independent until it merged with Opposer in or about 1924. "35. In 1916, Opposer was reincorporated under a federal charter by Act of Congress (since revised and codified at 36 U.S.C 30901 et seq., Pub. L. 105-225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1326) in which certain rights were granted to Opposer with respect to "words and phrases" it used in relation to its program as of the effective date of the Act. in 1916. "36. On information and belief the Girl Scouts of America was founded by Juliette Gordon Low, who organized the first Girl Scout troop on or about March 12, 1912, in Savannah, Georgia. "37. On information and belief, scattered Girl Scout troops coalesced into a national organization and incorporated on or about 1915 and began holding annual conventions. "38 On information and belief, the Girl Scouts of America is and has been since its founding a scouting organization independent of and not controlled by Opposer. "39. In 1950, the Girl Scouts of America was reincorporated under a federal charter by Act of Congress (since revised and codified at 36 U.S.C. 80301 et seq., Pub. L. 105-225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1326) and was also granted certain rights to 'words and phrases' used in relation to its program, using language substantially similar to the rights granted to Opposer in 1916. "40. In 1998, Congress revised (without intending any substantive change in law) the separate statutes previously enacted with respect to Opposer and to the Girl Scouts of America, and codified them under Title 36, United States Code at Sections 30901 et seq. ('Boy Scouts of America') and Sections 80301 et seq. ('Girl Scouts of America'). "41. Neither Opposer nor the Girl Scouts of America were granted an exclusive right to use the term 'SCOUTS' or 'SCOUTING' by Congress, and no permissible reading of these Acts of Congress could reasonably be construed to vest either party with exclusive rights to use such terms for scouting programs, since that would make the provisions of law inconsistent and in conflict. "42. All state and federal statutes applicable in this action should be construed so as not to unconstitutionally interfere with the public's right to free expression and to peaceably assemble. Removal of the terms 'SCOUT' and 'SCOUTING' from the public domain's use in relation to naming and promoting scouting organizations would unconstitutionally interfere with the rights of Plaintiff and others under the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution." http://youthscouts.org/BSAvWrennTTABAnswerCounterclaims.pdf http://youthscouts.org/news.html Kudu

Fishsqueezer writes: If you feel that is a personal attack, then I guess I will have to refrain from asking you questions or seeking information. It is always in bad form to speculate on someone's motives in Internet discussion groups, or to suggest that someone's status should prevent them from expressing an opinion on a subject that is open to general discussion. I don't see how that prevents you from openly asking a question that is relevant to the topic, or spinning off a new topic if your question is not relevant. Actually I believe you are incorrect to assert that everywhere in the English speaking world that scouting refers to the B-P game.... If a poll were taken I suspect 95+% would have never heard of Baden-Powell or his scouting game. You may be correct about Baden-Powell. I once spent an afternoon on the phone with BSA HQ in Irving Texas trying to track down the author of the BSA training publication that I believe was the first to mistakenly attribute the quote "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" to Baden-Powell. I was surprised to find out that the BSA professional in charge of BSA manuscripts did not know who Baden-Powell was! I am suggesting that in the rest of the English-speaking world, the word "Scouting" conjures up an image of a kid with a neckerchief camping or helping a little old lady to cross the street. This generic image of Scouting in other countries can be more accurately be described as the game invented by Baden-Powell than as the corporate product of the BSA. At least 80% would associate it with Boy Scouts. No, because you define "Boy Scouts" as the BSA. 80% of the world outside of the United States certainly does not think of the BSA when it uses the term "Boy Scouts." Most Americans probably associate the term "software" with Microsoft, but that does not give Microsoft exclusive rights to the term "software" even though the word "soft" is part of their trademark. It should be noted that the term "Boy Scout" is not likely to be much of an issue when allowing new Scouting associations in the United States because they are likely to be open to both boys and girls. That is why in the rest of the Western world most Scouting associations have changed their name from one based on the term "Boy Scouts" to a new name based on the term "Scouts." Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts were chartered in the same "special congressional action". No problem for them both to use scouts. Personal opinion. They were different Congressional Charters, according to the Youthscouts. I am going to spin their interesting version of this history off to the Scouting History forum, where our resident historians are more likely to comment on the accuracy of the Youthscouts' claims. A circular argument is one the premise depends on the truth of the matter in question. OK, how would you characterize the following argument: The first company to use a common word in its trademark owns that word. The BSA uses the word Scouts in its trademark. Therefore the BSA owns the word "Scouts." At any rate, Scouting is a game and if your "first dibs" assertion were true, then every team or league that plays any game would have to invent a new word for that game. The NFL was trademarked before the AFC, but that does not prohibit the AFC from using the word "football." Kudu

For those who are able to have their daughters tag along, you can buy Traditional generic advancement patches for them from the Pathfinders, see: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/generic.htm To see how these badges fit into a typical Traditional advancement scheme, see: Otters (Traditional Scouting for Ages 5-7) or Timber Wolves (Traditional Scouting for Ages 8-10) Under "Americanized" Traditional Scouting Handbooks" at: http://inquiry.net/traditional/index.htm Traditional Scouting is open to both boys and girls but is more outdoor oriented at all age levels than American Scouting, but with some creative effort you may be able to get the two programs to mesh. Some day we will have this kind of program in the United States! Kudu

Fishsqueezer writes: I read through the complaint and the opposition case really is the stronger one. The BSA demonstrated its rights more than did "youthscouts". Try to imagine my surprise at your reaction! :-/ My message is directed to those who belong to congregations or secular organizations that can not in good conscious sponsor a BSA Troop because of the BSA's "faith-based" agenda. Rather than dismissing Scouting or seeking to change the BSA, they should establish alternative Scouting associations and work toward expanding the Congressional Charter to provide for inclusive Scouting associations. So if all those dictionaries say the common noun usage of scout is Boy Scout and Girl Scout then that fairly well establishes the fact. Just the opposite. For instance Merriam-Webster defines "Scout" as "a member of any of various scouting movements," of which the BSA is an example. If "Boy" and "America" were the common usage to recognize the Boy Scouts of American then you would probably be correct. However, they are not used that way. Only Scouts and Scouting are used that way therefore they are the common usage. Your reasoning concerning common usage is quite the stretch. Your reasoning is circular. Why do all these groups wish to use scout in their name when there are many other options available? Why wouldn't pioneer, pathfinder, woodswalker, campers, trackers, hikers, seekers or mountaineers work? Because everywhere in the English-speaking world, "Scouting" refers to the game developed by Baden-Powell. Why should the AFC be forced to invent a new word for "football" just because the NFL used "football" in their trademark first? It is interesting to note that the Seventh-day Adventist Church does not have exclusive rights to the term "Pathfinders," nor do the "Royal Rangers" have exclusive rights to the word "Rangers." This is because, just like the generic word "Scouting," these terms were in common use before their groups were formed. The reason is name recognition. 1) The term had name recognition before the BSA was formed; 2) it continues to have name recognition in other countries; 3) the term "Scout" is used by the Girl Scouts despite the BSA's efforts in 1924 to keep them from using it which suggests that it is the Congressional Charter that allows the GSUSA to use the term, and not common trademark laws as you insist. Where does that name recognition come from? Common usage would say Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Circular reasoning again. And note that you are now include the Girl Scouts, which contradicts your assertion that the BSA has exclusive rights to the generic term "Scouts." As the Youthscouts note: "25. Youth groups currently exist and have existed in the United States and abroad, not control by Opposer [bSA], that use the word 'Scout' in their names." youthscouts.org/BSAvWrennTTABAnswerCounterclaims.pdf So, instead of trying to establish their own reputation, they try to leverage their name using the Boy Scout name that is more commonly recognized. They same thing could be said about Edgar M. Robinson (Senior Secretary of the YMCA's "Committee on Boys' Work"), and J. A. Van Dis (Boy's Work Secretary of the State YMCA of Michigan), who approached William D. Boyce on May 3rd, 1910 to suggest their cooperation in building a national monopoly of Scouting in the United States. They sought to "leverage" their conservative Christian agenda by using the already commonly recognized term "Boy Scout," and in fact succeeded in adding elements such as "morally straight" to their Boy Scout Promise, "Reverent" to their Scout Laws, and a religious test for membership which required the acknowledgment that people who do not believe that "God" runs the universe and putters around in their personal lives are not good citizens. As far as not having TM next to the words, why are Boy Scouts of American held to a different standard than any other business? I popped onto a number of commercial web sites and none had TM next to their name or abbreviation of their name. Evidently this has to do with using the terms generically: "44. The Opposer [bSA] has used the terms "SCOUTS" and "SCOUTING" generically in formal legal documents filed with the USPTO and readily available to the public. Examples are attached as Exhibit B. "45. The Opposer has used the terms "SCOUTS" and "SCOUTING" generically on its website and in a manner that fails to reasonable apprise third parties of a claim of trademark rights. Examples are attached as Exhibit C." youthscouts.org/BSAvWrennTTABAnswerCounterclaims.pdf I also noted something else in the legal papers. You have been wont to mention that "special act of congress" concerning the Boy Scouts of America. Your implication is that it was just for the boy scouts. You fail to mention that it also deals with the Red Cross, DAR, American Historical Society, DAV, Marine Corps League, Civil Air Patrol, and many more - even the Military Chaplains Association (egad a religious organization). Why the implication that this was "special legislation"? Ulterior motive? I would be happy to reply to your personal attack, Fishsqueezer, but I don't understand exactly what you are trying to imply by "ulterior motive." The "special rights" that the BSA claims under their Congressional Charter is a monopoly on terms such as "Scouts," "Scouting," and universal international symbols such as the fleur de lys. If the Red Cross refused to provide blood and life-saving services to girls, or refused blood and life-saving services to boys whose parents will not sign a statement of religious belief, then some citizens would awaken from their slumber and demand that the Red Cross share any special rights bestowed upon it by Congress with an organization that provides these services to the children that the Red Cross discriminates against, just as the BSA is forced to share the terms "Scouts" and "Scouting" with the Girl Scouts. Those who oppose the BSA's polices should build alternative Scouting associations! "41. Neither Opposer nor the Girl Scouts of America were granted an exclusive right to use the term "SCOUTS" or "SCOUTING" by Congress, and no permissible reading of these Acts of Congress could reasonable be construed to vest either party with exclusive rights to use such terms for scouting program, since that would make the provisions of law inconsistent and in conflict." youthscouts.org/BSAvWrennTTABAnswerCounterclaims.pdf I'm still not sure why you have so much concern for us and our choices here when you already have so much choice in England. It is heartening to know that the Continent still cares (or at least a part of it) for the opportunities our children have. Perhaps we will one day have the opportunity to return your concern and provide guidance to one of your scouting organizations. That is merely a nationalistic personal attack based on your puzzling assumption that I am not an American member of the BSA. Cheers! Kudu

Trevorum, What do you mean by "timeline"? Youthscouts appears to have filed a for a trademark on October 17, 2002 (Gregory Wrenn is also a trademark attorney). This application was published in the United States Official Gazette on July 1, 2003. The BSA's Notice of Opposition seems to have been filed July 2003, but shows a time stamp of August 11, 2003. Youthscouts "Answer and Counterclaims" was filed September 5, 2003. The file "Youthscout's Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings" shows a "Prosecution History" beginning 07/17/2003 with activity as recently as last week, 02/23/2006. Kudu

Fishsqueezer writes: The history of scouting has nothing to do with trademark protection - it is a legal question. Well, at least we agree that it is a legal question: "27. The core of the dispute is around the BSA's effort to claim rights in terms that are in fact generic and unprotectable as a matter of public policy. The terms 'SCOUTS' and 'SCOUTING' are generic words for scouting programs, i.e. youth-based organizations modeled after the ideas of Robert Baden-Powell and the scouting movement at the turn of the twentieth century. 28. It is unreasonable and unduly burdensome to expect scouting organizations to develop, manage, and promote a scouting organization without using the generic and unprotectable terms 'SCOUTS' and 'SCOUTING'." http://youthscouts.org/WrennvBSADistCourtComplaint.pdf The above document also presents a number of puzzling technical arguments including the fact that when the BSA uses the terms "Scouts" and "Scouting" generically it does not mark the words with "TM" as is customary with trademarks; and apparently since 1982, the BSA has explicitly disclaimed exclusive rights to use the term "SCOUTS" apart from its compound trademarks and designs on a number of occasions in formal legal documents filed with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Additional documents can be found at: http://youthscouts.org/news.html Including "Youthscout's Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings," which is apparently updated with great regularity. Common usage is established after the brand trademark as you stated in your post. Boy Scouts of American was trademarked - the other scout names were not. A first dibs kind of thing. The BSA has the legal right to the name and the related common usage - that is the law. By the same logic, the Boy Scouts of America has exclusive rights to the two other generic words in their trademark: "Boy" and "America" :-) At any rate, that is what the YouthScouts case will look at for the first time since 1918. Kudu

Fishsqueezer writes: I think my Nike was right on, but if you don't like that comparison then look at common usage that has also been protected under trademark - think "what can brown do for you" with UPS and FedEx for Federal Express. The common usage was associated with the trade name and therefore came under trademark protection. This common usage became associated with the trade names after the trade name was established. Before the BSA, between the years 1908 and 1910 the common usage of "Boy Scouts" was the popular game of Patrol camping in the woods and working on the three mastery levels of Scouting: Tenderfoot through First Class, as outlined in the book Scouting for Boys which B-P had initially offered as a jolly good game to be played free of any central Scouting corporation. Previous to Baden-Powell's use, the term "Boy Scout" had been made popular in 1900-1906 by the publisher of "The True Blue War Library" to "describe the adventures in the Transvaal of 'Harry St George' a heroic figure. The story had been already been serialized for the best part of six years, making Harry a cult figure of Boys literature." Previous to that famous "Harry," the term "Boy Scout" had been used by "Aldine Publishing in 1899 in "The New Buffalo Bill Library" in a Buffalo Bill story to describe "Buffalo Bill's most trusted Scouts....Harry White a youngster of seventeen." As for the actual content of Scouting, Ernest Seton had contested both the BSA's monopoly on Scouting, and Baden-Powell's book Scouting for Boys because some of the structure of Scouting had been lifted from Seton's 1906 book The Birch Bark Roll. So B-P was forced under oath to invent a backstory for Scouting to aid the BSA against Seton and the American branch of the British Boy Scouts before he lost control of Scouting as a world-movement as he had lost his monopoly in the UK to the British Boy Scouts (The British Boy Scout's "Order of World Scouts" [OWS] preceeded B-P's "World Organization of the Scout Movement" [WOSM] by eleven [11] years!). These topics are discussed in depth in Tim Jeal's biography Baden-Powell which also credits Michael Foster for some of the research, see: http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/sha/bscout.htm The BSA's spin on B-P's testimony on their behalf can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/deposition.htm Scouts, scouting, and boy scouts are all common usages of Boy Scouts of America and therefore can be legitimately claimed under the trademark Again, they were in common usage before the BSA was incorporated. Congress granting the BSA "special rights" to these words is like granting "Little League" a trademark on the term "baseball." The free market is what keeps Little League from being taken over by the religious right. Baseball doesn't need secret bylaws, so why does Scouting? and as you say, even B-P wanted to protect the name scouts. As an afterthought. The fact that England has 3 different scout groups and the name could not be trademarked is irrelevant to US trademark law. Yes. I just offer that information to Americans who simply do not realize that Scouts in other countries have freedom of choice. I don't have any understanding of US trademark law or how the YouthScouts' case will be argued. Even if the case gets as far as the Ninth Circuit, I doubt if it will get a sympathetic hearing in Ralph Nader's Supreme Court. But the publicity would cause some Americans to begin to think outside of the BSA box. After all, the BSA was forced to share their government-granted "special rights" Charter with the GSUSA to justify excluding girls from Scouting. Perhaps religions that do not recognize the god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings to be necessary for the best type of citizenship will, at long last, wake from their slumber and move to have the Congressional Charter extended to include secular Scouting associations that do not exclude those who hold a more democratic definition of citizenship. This is far more logical than trying to change the BSA. There really isn't much to the affidavits since they are small screen shots related to the sale of the materials so your point on that was lost on me. Nothing very deep, Fishsqueezer :-) I just find the BSA's justifications for protecting the word "Scout" from the Girl Scouts amusing and somehow timeless: "In a mining community the boys are extremely virile because of environment, etc., and the fact of the organization of seven troop of Girl Scouts has resulted in the boys being buffooned and jested around by those who do not want to be anything at all and accused of being nice little girls and nice little sissies. Whenever the boy attempts to comply he is confronted with the remark, 'Well, isn't Jenny So and So a Scout, too?' I maintain that it is a mighty serious problem from the psychological point of view." http://inquiry.net/adult/bsa_vs_gsusa.htm Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

As to the registered trademark of boy scouts, I'm not sure how you have a complaint. It is a national registered trademark name. The term "boy scouts" was in use before Baden-Powell decided to use it. He was unable to get a trademark on the term in England, thus the UK still has at least three different Scouting associations. When his chief rival, the British Boy Scouts, refused to join the BSA's growing monopoly in the United States, B-P was able to help the BSA head them off. However, B-P's testimony is controversial and the historic accuracy of his claims in the trial that granted the BSA its monopoly is explored in Appendix II of Tim Jeal's Baden-Powell. You would get the same response should you try to start Nike boys or NFL players, or associate with any other trademarked name. The correct analogy would be to Nike trademarking the term "sneakers" or the NFL trademarking the term "football." "Boy Scouts of America" is a legitimate trademark, however, granting "special rights" to the generic term "scouts" so that a "faith-based" "religious organization" can exclude others from Scouting required an act of Congress. Acts of Congress can be modified. I suspect it would not go very far. If the "YouthScouts" have any chance at all, it is in San Francisco and then the Ninth Circuit. If it gets that far, then it will have gone far enough for some people to begin to think in terms of a free marketplace rather than tying to reform a government-established monopoly. Just because you want to use it and you share the same heritage there is no conferred right to use the name. True enough, but the BSA's monopoly on Scouting is not absolute. In 1924 the BSA tried to force the GSUSA to change its name. The BSA claimed that the use of the name "Girl Scouts" inflicted psychological damage on the boys and the name should be "Girl Guides" as Lord Baden Powell recommended. The BSA's affidavits make for amusing reading, see: http://inquiry.net/adult/bsa_vs_gsusa.htm Kudu

Newbie writes: Wasn't it Baden-Powell that said that the Scout Law was "Applied Christianity"? According to Tim Jeal, B-P wrote in the introduction to a 1917 pamphlet entitled Scouting and Christianity "Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity." What do you mean by progressive? Tim Jeal covers the influence of the progressive spiritual movement on the origins of Scouting in his biography Baden-Powell. Progressive could mean that a person actually applies the Scout Oath and Law to their life rather than just rote memorization. Yes, that is B-P in a nutshell if by "applies" you mean action rather than belief. Prairie_Scouter writes: So, now, if we're going to create a Scout philosophy out of all of the references to Christianity, regardless of what context they were made in, then I guess we have a BSA based on Christ-based beliefs. Time to boot out those pesky Jews and Buddhists. The pamphlet was aimed at a Christian audience. By "Christian" B-P often meant paying the Golden Rule forward. Supposedly variations of the "Golden Rule" can be found in all religions. Likewise the mystical aspect of Baden-Powell's "Religion of the Deep Woods" (spiritual retreat to the wilderness), is common to many religions including Buddhism. Unlike his famous father, B-P was known to back-peddle on his more controversial religious beliefs. "But he never regretted what he had said, nor that he had invited Muslims and Buddhists to recite prayers at Gilwell. He quoted Carlyle as saying: 'The religion of a man is not the creed he professes but his life--what he acts upon, and knows of life, and his duty in it. A bad man who believes in a creed is no more religious than the good man who does not.' Baden-Powell's public refusal to countenance the exclusive claims of any one religion was accompanied by increasingly fervent references to 'God' in his speeches." For additional progressive religious excerpts from Tim Jeal's biography Baden-Powell, see: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Kudu