Kudu

This week the stepfather of our most conservative and outspoken Scout asked me if I would be interested in our Troop being "adopted" by the "Sons of the American Legion." As I understand it, his group is offering an "informal adoption" and not a formal change in sponsoring organizations (although his wife has suggested in the past that our membership would increase if we were located somewhere other than our current "neighborhood in transition"). They seem to be offering their resources (such as their facilities and organizational skills for fundraisers) in return for our eligible Scouts (those directly related to a veteran) joining the Sons of the American Legion. They will pay the membership fees. I don't see a downside to this, but I would welcome any comments before I contact them to discuss the details. Kudu

what faith groups are outside the BSA tent? Buddhist children are welcome in the "BSA tent" after their parents affirm in writing that they are not "the best kind of citizens" because they do not recognize the Middle Eastern god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe, and because they believe in the law of karma rather than the "grateful acknowledgment" of this Middle Eastern god's "favors and blessings" as being "necessary" for anything at all. The problem is that government has established religion with a religious test for citizenship in order to join Scouting. Liberals, moderates, Goldwater conservatives, and libertarians have dropped the ball on this one. The answer is simple enough: Establish Congressional Charters for alternative Scouting associations. We could call it the Charter Scouting Movement :-/ This will allow religions that have "WITHDRAWN THEIR SUPPORT OF SCOUTING" (as well as those who are discriminated against in the BSA's religious awards program) the religious freedom to support a Blue State version of Scouting, rather than the BSA's Red State discrimination version. (or BSA has withdrawn the right to wear the religious knot for a particular award) Yes, the BSA practices religious discrimination against little children like Unitarian-Universalist Cub Scouts who want to wear their "Love and Help" award, but it has NOT withdrawn the right to wear the generic religious knot. The answer for inquiring minds is in the BSA Insignia Guide. Kudu

> I have a question: if my Bear completes the Love and Help program I > understand that he can't wear the Love and Help emblem itself. The UUA recommends that Scouts earn their religious emblem and wear it proudly. The ban on wearing the Love and Help emblem is pure religious discrimination because at no time did the BSA ever object to any of the content in this award. They discriminate against Unitarian-Universalist Cub Scouts only because of the religion to which they belong. This is the inevitable result when the government establishes religion with a monopoly on Scouting, and is the reason for the separation of church and state. The UUA has never addressed this central issue. The UUA did send the following reply to the BSA: We will not acquiesce in such discrimination. We will not stop distributing a Religion and Life manual that reflects our religious principles. We will not stop providing Religion and Life awards and Love and Help emblems to Scouts and Scout leaders. If you and the BSA honestly believe that it will promote or defend Scouting to refuse our awards or to have Scout officials tear them off the uniforms of boys I think that you are sadly mistaken. Most Americans will see such actions for what they are: blatant discrimination against children on the basis of their religion. > Can he or can he not wear the knot? You can find the official answer in the BSA's Insignia Guide. Basically it says that the religious knot may be worn by a Scout who earns his church's religious award. It does not require that the award be recognized by the BSA. Kudu

BrentAllen writes: B-P's "Religion of the Backwoods" was not just about going camping, which is what you are implying. His "Religion" was that boys would find a more real and material understanding of God through seeing His work in the natural creations on earth, as opposed to the preaching and formal religious education they received in church. This kind of "argument from design" is how he packaged it for Christian adults in England, but for the Scouts it was "just about going camping." In other words, he did not require the Scouts to overlay some kind of religious understanding on their backwoods experience: "Yet the natural form in religion is so simple that a child can understand it; a boy can understand it, a Boy Scout can understand it. It comes from within, from conscience, from observation, from love, for use in all that he does. It is not a formality or a dogmatic dressing donned from outside, put on for Sunday wear. It is, therefore, a true part of his character, a development of soul, and not a veneer that may peel off." See: http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm It was not some back-alley manner for atheists to say they had "religion." Scouting is all about "back-alleys:" Scouting is a game that that teaches citizenship through indirect means. Baden-Powell's Religion of the Backwoods was a back-alley manner of exposing all boys (including atheists such as Buddhists) to the natural environment in which the "realisation of God" could be attained through indirect non-verbal means. But he allowed cultures that do not worship God to substitute other terms for "God," for instance "Dharma," which can be defined as natural law or reality. All religions have this mystical way of the wilderness somewhere in their history, but as Baden-Powell's father notes in The Order of Nature, supernatural beliefs that result from this kind of encounter with nature differ from culture to culture in history and often flat-out contradict each other. B-P did believe strongly in the Christian ethic of helping your fellow man, as a way of serving God. But that alone was not enough. Atheists can serve their fellow man, but they do not see that as an act of serving God, nor does it help them with a "realisation of God." Perhaps you can give an example of where B-P says that good deeds are "not enough" if they are not accompanied with "seeing that as an act of serving God"? Again, I believe B-P saw this as a real application of religion for the boys to practice. B-P placed more importance on the actions of Scouts than on their beliefs. In other words he wanted boys learn how to be Christians by acting like Christians. To this end he introduced daily good turns as heroic acts of chivalry, an adventure game in which Scouts took on the role of knights. It was another way to connect with God and bring God out of the church and into their everyday lives. In non-Christian cultures this "Practical Christianity" did not require God in "their everyday lives:" "Its aim should be to instill "character" into the men of the future. By "character" is meant a spirit of manly self-reliance and of unselfishness--something of the practical Christianity which (although they are Buddhists in theory) distinguishes the Burmese in their daily life" [Emphasis in original--Scouting for Boys, Scout Brotherhood Edition, page 302]. I'm curious - why do you think B-P included religion in Scouting? B-P appears to have undergone a mystical revelation through camping before his invention of Boy Scouting. For instance: "Going over these immense hills - especially when alone - and looking almost sheer down into the deep valleys between - one feels like a parasite on the shoulders of the world. There is such a bigness about it all, that opens and freshens up the mind. It's as good as a cold tub for the soul." See: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm His father died when B-P was very young. His experience of the Religion of the Backwoods echoes the writings of his father in The Order of Nature (which B-P said was "the most remarkable book he had ever read") and this must have added additional emotional depth to his convictions. Was he under any pressure to include it? Actually, he was forced to dumb it down following the 1921 controversy over Scouting being a possible substitute for Revealed Religion. Did he think you needed to believe in God to be the best kind of citizen? Not in cultures that did not worship God. Which is my point: Americans should have the religious freedom to form Scouting associations that reflect Blue State inclusive and multicultural values. The government should not be in the business of establishing a Red State religious organization with a monopoly on Scouting. Kudu

I wonder if they're allowed to do Laser Tag up there? Yes, they are especially popular for the War of 2012 re-enactment.

BrentAllen quotes Baden-Powell: "There is no religious side to the Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realisation and service of God." 1) Baden-Powell's "realization" of God was through immersion in the great outdoors (what he called the "Religion of the Backwoods"), as in the sub-heading of Rovering to Success: "Nature Knowledge as a Step Towards Realizing God." 2) Baden-Powell's "service" of God, was through good deeds (what he called "Practical Christianity"), as in the Scout Promise: "to help other people at all times". "I have been asked to describe more fully what was in my mind as regards religion when I instituted Scouting and Guiding. I was asked: 'Where does religion come in?' Well, my reply is: 'It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is the fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding." Yes, exactly. Scouting is a game that employs very indirect means to achieve its ends. When we view Scouting as a progressive approach to spiritual development, then for a Scout not to do his duty to God would require that he refuse to camp in the woods and to help other people at all times! "There may be many difficulties relating to definition of the religious training in our Movement where so many different denominations exist, and the details of the expression of duty to God have, therefore, to be left largely in the hands of the local authority. "Local authority" is the key concept here. In other versions, Baden-Powell substituted the term "association," or left it up to the parents: "Many difficulties may arise while defining religious formation in a Movement such as ours, where many religions coexist; so, the details of the various forms of expressing the duty to God must be left to those responsible of each single association. We insist however on observance and practice of that form of religion the boys profess." and "The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes." To religious fundamentalists in a country like the USA where the government establishes a conservative religious organization with a "local authority" monopoly on Scouting, the meaning of Baden-Powell's quotes seems to be self-evident: that religion is something to be used like a clove of garlic to repel the very "hooligans" that B-P insisted we try to "catch." But in a free country that protects minorities from the tyranny of discrimination by the majority, alternative Scouting associations, such as the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA), become the "local authority" for those who seek a more humanistic, multicultural approach to religion or ethical education based on Baden-Powell. ...But we insist on the observance and practice of whatever form of religion the boy professes." Most of the atheist parents and Scouts that I have met would be perfectly happy with the boy professing camping and service to others as a religion :-) Baden-Powell's use of the term "religion" was inclusive and progressive. He quoted Carlyle as saying: "The religion of a man is not the creed he professes but his life--what he acts upon, and knows of life, and his duty in it. A bad man who believes in a creed is no more religious than the good man who does not." Kudu

It appears to me that straight-forward statements from B-P give a clear explanation of his thoughts on religion in Scouting. His progressive statements about Practical Christianity and the Religion of the Backwoods are equally clear. These two elements: the outward (good works to benefit human society) and the inward (mystical retreat from society to the wilderness) can be found in almost every religious tradition, and B-P earnestly believed that Scouting would reinforce the "book learning" that every Scout learned in his own "church school." But let's face it, if you don't believe in the supernatural or exclusive claims of any one religion, isn't Practical Christianity and the Religion of the Backwoods (combined with B-P's ten Scout Laws and the brotherhood of Scouting) a sufficient form of religion in itself? Baden-Powell's movement depended on churches as sponsoring organizations, but an Anglican "cleric who overheard Alan Chapman at Gilwell describing the Scout Movement as 'a bigger thing than Christianity' told Baden-Powell that, if he himself thought so, he would destroy the Movement as a national institution. Bishop Joseph Butt, auxiliary bishop to the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Westminster, accused Baden-Powell of 'sweeping with one magnificent gesture the Christian Revelation, Mohammedanism, and all the rest, into a heap of private opinions which do not matter much'" (Jeal, page 515). Baden-Powell knew that the church could play hard ball. His famous father had died facing charges of heresy for his progressive views, and as a young boy, B-P heard clerics publicly assert that his father had died without the benefit of eternal life. "Expecting" every Scout to pick a church and attend its services is a reflection of the political realities of English culture 100 years ago, but Baden-Powell was not much of a church-goer himself. On the other hand, you and Jeal have to take the most convoluted route to arrive at your conclusions. Baden-Powell was a man of many contradictions. To acknowledge this complexity is the opposite of religious fundamentalism, which is the practice of cherry-picking the passages that support the so-called "simple truth" that the central message of Jesus or Baden-Powell demands discrimination and exclusion. Do you think B-P expected the boys to dig around to arrive at your conclusion B-P expected boys to play a game called Scouting. Along the way Christian boys would learn to act like Christians not by reading something, but by helping other people at all times. They would learn something about the hand of their "Creator" by studying his "creation," nature, close up. B-P's game was all about catching hooligans, not excluding them. or to read Scouting For Boys and learn that "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every scout should have a religion."? Unlike the church attendance stuff, this statement probably reflects Baden-Powell's true values, at least in his capacity as a role model for English boys. He was a national war hero and no doubt English boys were inspired by the passage. But again, the statement is not a universal statement about the goodness of men in other cultures: he used a country that did not believe in God as his example of good character, and his own "religion" was the backwoods. Now, if you want to open the "You can find passages to back up just about anything" can of worms, then we can have a lot of fun with your other ideas.... Yes, well on the subject of fun: under the topic of "Religion" in his "Notes to Instructors" in the 1908 edition of Scouting for Boys Baden-Powell writes "Charles Stelzle, in his 'Boys of the Streets and How to Win Them,' says: 'Sometimes we are so much concerned about there being enough religion in our plans for the boy that we forget to leave enough boy in the plans. According to the notions of some, the ideal boys' club would consist of prayer meetings and Bible classes, with an occasional missionary talk as a treat, and perhaps magic lantern views of the Holy Land as a dizzy climax' "Religion can and ought to be taught to the boy, but not in a milk-and-watery way, or in a mysterious and lugubrious manner; he is very ready to receive it if it is shown in its heroic side and as a natural every-day quality in every proper man, and it can be well introduced to boys through the study of Nature; and to those who believe scouting to be an unfit subject for Sunday instruction, surely the study of God's work is at least proper for that day. There is no need for this instruction to be dismal, that is 'all tears and texts.' Arthur Benson, writing in the Cornhill Magazine says there are four Christian virtues, not three. They are--Faith, Hope, Charity--and Humor" (SfB, Part V, page 276). Kudu

Sounds to me like B-P felt religion was an obligation, and that religion was required to be a good man. Are you saying B-P was wrong? ... Again, it looks like B-P felt pretty strongly about serving God, as part of Scouting. Do you disagree? Reading Baden-Powell is a bit like reading the Bible: You can find passages to back up just about anything you believe. I believe that excluding six and seven year-olds from Scouting is the same as turning your back on God, and find that to be the plain meaning of Matthew 19:13,14. On the other hand, if someone wants to drive north to purchase some Canadians, we must admit that this is permissible under the slavery guidelines set forth in Leviticus! So it would seem to those who support the BSA's exclusion of atheists that a fair reading of the passages you cite would justify the BSA's policies. However, a Scouting association that includes Scouts who do not believe in God can be justified by viewing these passages in the context of other writings by Baden-Powell: 1. Baden-Powell's approach to religion in Scouting was two-fold: the outward and the inward. He called the outward expression of religion "Practical Christianity" ("Help other people at all times"), and he called the inward experience of religion "The Religion of the Backwoods" ("Nature Knowledge as a Step Towards Realizing God"). 2. To practice Practical Christianity you did not need to be a Christian or even believe in God, "By 'character' is meant a spirit of manly self-reliance and of unselfishness--something of the practical Christianity which (although they are Buddhists in theory) distinguishes the Burmese in their daily life." (Scouting for Boys, Scout Brotherhood Edition, page 302). 3. Baden-Powell's "usual church" was the backwoods. He spoke of his camping equipment as his "toys" and wrote, "May it not be that our toys are the various media adapted to individual tastes through which men may know their God?" Baden-Powell, Tim Jeal, page 203. 4. Baden-Powell never wrote that boys who do not believe in God should be excluded from Scouting, but he did have a specific five-part plan for dealing with "lads of practically no religion of any kind": "The practical way in which Scouting can help is through the following: (a) Personal example of the Scoutmaster. (b) Nature study. © Good turns. (d) Missioner service [care for the sick]. (e) Retention of the older boy." http://inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm#no_religion Note that this process included the indirect means of both Practical Christianity and the Religion of the Backwoods. 5. The quotes that you reference were all written for English Scouts, but Baden-Powell accepted god-less "Outlander" Scout Promises in cultures that did not worship God (Burma, for instance). According to oral tradition, he referred to English boys who "could not make the full Scout Promise" as "Outlanders" (republicans who would not swear a Duty to the King, for instance). The BSA Scout Oath is an Outlander Promise because it does not include a Duty to the King, and I would argue that our culture includes enough Buddhists, Unitarian-Universalists, Ethical Culturists, etc. to justify an Outlander Oath in alternative Scouting associations for those who do not wish to be associated with the BSA or WOSM. The following is the optional Baden-Powell Scout Association in America (BPSA-USA) Outlander Promise: On my honor I promise to do my best: To render service to my country; To help other people at all times; To obey the Scout Law. 6. Baden-Powell's spiritual views (as well as those of his famous father, whose radical religious-progressive writings greatly influenced B-P) are described by some biographers as "pantheistic." I always ask my atheist Scouts to define the God that they don't believe in, and their disbelief is always centered on the existence of supernatural powers (the "ruling and leading power in the universe" stuff). I find that none of them have objections to a pantheistic definition of God (God as the sum-total of all of the natural laws in the universe, for example). Once they can explain that in their own words, surprisingly they do not become pantheists but for some reason adopt a conventional belief in God. It is the skeptical boys with the courage to express their spiritual doubt that are most likely to come back in ten years as clergy. This is why Scouting is a game: Duty to God is an Ideal to be reached through very indirect means. It is inclusive, not exclusive. More background information on Baden-Powell's progressive views on Scouting and religion can be found at: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Kudu

emb021 writes: Not like it is in France, when there are separate scouting associations for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and other religious groups. In the US, ALL these groups are part of the BSA. Only those Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and other religious groups who are not repelled by the BSA's Red State religious values. Such an interpretation is incorrect, and I feel WOSM backs me on this. But there is not much the WOSM can do to correct the BSA, can it? The WOSM is really just a cartel of Scouting monopolies. ALL scouts must subscribe to some religious belief. Not all Scouts, some countries have alternative "god-less" oaths. Duty to God should be an ideal, not an obligation. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. There is no list of approved religions, and just looking at the list of those that have BSA-approved religious awards includes several that DON'T use the term "GOD" But to join they must first affirm in writing that they are not the "best type of citizens." Forcing a Buddhist to affirm the god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and that the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings is necessary for the "best type of citizenship," is like forcing a Jew to accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior, while allowing him the freedom to define "Jesus Christ" any way he wants. People who get worked up about this on both sides of the issue are wrong. It depends on how you feel about going to court to exclude six and seven year-old children from Scouting. The problem with the BSA is not its religious fundamentalist values, the problem is that government has established one religious corporation with a monopoly on Scouting. Religious fundamentalists and religious liberals (the ones who try to change the BSA) both want government to impose their views on everyone else through this monopoly, while moderates generally believe that Scouting is what happens on the local level in individual units. The BSA will change when God makes a personal pilgrimage to Rome and Salt Lake City, OR when liberals and moderates work together to establish alternative Scouting associations in the United States. Whichever comes first. Kudu

emb021 writes: But SL and the OMM concept should not be confused. I can't be the only one, because some Councils give out copies of his One Minute Manager at Wood Badge. The distinction may be moot because I have heard that the BSA is not going to renew its license with Blanchard. At any rate, call me old-fashioned but my objection is to concentrating on abstract leadership skills rather than on the Theoretical and Practical aspects of Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting. Kudu

Barry writes: As Kudu points out, doing patrol method at training doesnt mean you get it. Yes, it does not guarantee that you "get it," but I do believe that it is more likely that you will understand the Patrol Method if you use it for a week at Wood Badge. This is how William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course is structured: The Scoutmaster acts as Patrol Leader of the "Green Bar Patrol" with the SPL as his Assistant Patrol Leader. The Troop's Patrol Leaders are the Patrol members. The Patrol meets once a month (this could be on the same day as the PLC meeting) for six months for a "Patrol Meeting." The Patrol Meetings lead to a Saturday "Patrol Hike" and a later weekend "Patrol Campout." The idea is that the Scoutmaster models the behavior and activities that he expects from his Patrol Leaders. See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm This was replaced in 1972 when "Leadership Development" became one of the "Seven Methods of Scouting" and practical Patrol Leader Training was replaced by the new abstract leadership skills taught at Wood Badge. I do agree that Patrols are better off without an adult mixed in with the Scouts, and that teaching outdoor skills at Wood Badge was done more as an example of Uniformed Patrols working on Advancement in the great Outdoors than actual skills instruction. BrentAllen writes: A lot of countries have combined Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts, which I believe B-P was against. Do you hold them in similar disdain for changing B-P's original program? I am against any policy that interferes with a Patrol working and sleeping together with a minimum of adult interference. I don't see how mixed-gender Patrols could work in the United States. The heads of both the conservative UK "Baden-Powell Scouts Association" and the conservative Christian "British Boy Scouts" told me that discrimination against homosexuals is now against the law in the UK, and I believe that this was a condition of joining the European Union. Perhaps mixed-gender Troops are a result of similar legislation? Baden-Powell initially wrote in favor of the same Scouting program for both boys and girls, but Edwardian social condemnation over the "coarsening of young ladies" forced him to retreat on this issue and to invent a watered-down program called the Girl Guides. Kudu - is it your suggestion that Wood Badge teach all of the above? Yes, in Traditional Scouting movements (for instance the course being offered October 13th 16th at Caloosahatchee Park, Florida). All of the skills you list are still part of the core Tenderfoot - First Class program in such associations. Kudu

emb021 writes: Are you confusing Situational Leadership & Team Development Model/Team Leadership Model for OMM? Perhaps. It was my understanding that Situational Leadership was first introduced by Ken Blanchard in the One Minute Manager series, and that the BSA pays a royalty to Blanchard for its use in Wood Badge. Maybe in some countries they do it that way, doesn't mean we have to. My point is that as a monopoly, the BSA prevents Americans from having the freedom to make that choice. Sorry, but AFAIK, B-P himself wanted only ONE Scout Association per country. Yes, after 200 Scoutmasters from the London area rose up on December 3, 1909 against the autocratic hierarchy of Baden-Powell's Boy Scouts Association as it was run in his absence (he was still in the army). This led to the establishment of the Christian UK Scouting association, The British Boy Scouts. He only relutantly gave in for countries like France who have different associations broken down by religious background. Scouting is divided by religious background in the United States as well. The BSA has declared itself to be a religious organization, and it describes itself as "faith-based," the code word often used by fundamentalist Christians who advocate discrimination along the same lines as the BSA. To join the BSA you must also sign a religious statement affirming the god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and that the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings is necessary for the "best type of citizenship." If you refuse because your religious background leads you to reject these religious values as repugnant, then currently our government establishes religion with the power to bar you from Scouting. I have NEVER felt that having more then one scouting association was a good thing. I know people who express similar loyalties to McDonald's french fries, Pepsi, and Microsoft software. I have my issues with the BSA, Obviously nothing insurmountable :-) I don't agree that setting up so-called 'traditional scouting' programs that want to ignore 100 years of development in camping, psychology, social change, leadership, etc, is a good thing. Scouting is a game, and fortunately you don't need to be current in the last 100 years of psychology, social change, and leadership theory to take a couple of Patrols into the woods to play games based on semaphore, Morse code, tracking, stalking, following Woodcraft trail signs, and preparing them for their First Class Journey. It's one of those "timeless values" things :-/ If someone wants to do a more traditional scouting program, they can doing it with the BSA. That is like joining a baseball team to play cricket. Kudu

emb021 writes: Your description of the awarding of WB beads (which I am familiar with), AFAIK, only occurred during the early years of WB, and was soon replaced with the method that we are familiar with today Combining the two courses is probably common, but in some Scouting associations you can take just the Theoretical course and be awarded the one bead Wood Badge. Do you know of any other country in the world that has traded the Wood Badge outdoor skills for The One Minute Manager? Things are not static. Things change. And not all changes are wrong. The only "wrong" I am working to correct is the lack of choice Americans have in Scouting. OldGreyEagle writes: I didn't make myself as clear as I thought. I understood you the first time OGE :-) The way I see Wood Badge for the 21rst Century is that BSA designed it so it would give organizational and leadership skills to every adult who was associated with a troop. We teach boys how to camp not so much because they need outdoor skills to get by in life, but because learning these skills in a Patrol in the woods seems to foster citizenship. Likewise Baden-Powell taught outdoor skills in Wood Badge because working together as a Patrol in the woods teaches adults something about how Scouting works. I was the course director for our Council's Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills for three years, and it is simply not the same thing. I arrived at Wood Badge with the 11 Leadership Skills already memorized, and with a pretty good theoretical understanding of the "Eight Methods" of Scouting. But it was not until one chilly autumn night with the smell of wood smoke in the air that I heard the Eagle Patrol singing in the distance and something "clicked." For the first time in my life I "understood" the Patrol Method. This was not a theoretical understanding. In a perfect world everyone associated with a Troop (and District and Council) would be on the same page after training. I'm just saying that I prefer Baden-Powell's method, which is to award those who only need the leadership and organizational skills the one bead "Theoretical" Wood Badge, and to award those who have also participated in the outdoor course the two bead Theoretical + Practical Wood Badge. SR540Beaver wrote: Someone took the outing out of Scouting? Yes, in 1972. The 1972 Scout Handbook is a real hoot. As Jeff points out, it was a complete disaster and William Hillcourt was brought out of retirement to put the outing back in Scouting. Unfortunately he was not allowed to put the outing back in Patrol Leader Training! And now, 30 years later, they have taken the outing out of Wood Badge. I'm not trying to change the BSA, just to remind people that there are other ways to run Wood Badge. This is difficult to do in a country whose government restricts its citizens to only one Scouting corporation. If Congress granted McDonald's a similar monopoly on dining, then we would tend to think that broiled hamburgers are "old fashioned" and unworkable in the 21st century, and that because "things change" and we have no choice, then fried hamburgers must be the inevitable result of progress and modernization. Indoor One Minute Manager Wood Badge seems to delight most American Scouters, but a very small niche market might prefer a form of Wood Badge invented by an old guy named Baden-Powell. Kudu

emb021 writes: The BSA awards two Wood Beads for completing your practical, AKA, your ticket. The course is the theory, the ticket is the practical. If that is really true then why don't you receive your theory bead when you finish the indoor course, and your practical bead if and when you finish your ticket? In the context of a discussion about Baden-Powell and the emphasis on outdoor skills in "old" Wood Badge, the BSA's use of the term "practical" for the ticket is just word play. "Practical" Wood Badge refers to the mastery of Troop Ceremonies, Fieldcraft, Woodcraft, and Signcraft. OldGreyEagle writes: If faced with the same factors as the BSA faces, what would B-P do? We don't need a time machine to answer that one. In the rest of the world, people who attend the Theoretical course receive the one bead Theoretical course Wood Badge. Why should people who never got their knees dirty wear two Wood Beads? That would be like awarding every Staffer four Wood Beads. Two beads should indicate that no matter what your role in Scouting is, you have "practical" training in how the Aim of Citizenship is acheived through camping in Patrols. Well, we don't know, but I don't think, in my opinion, he would continue to train people to tie knots when their role in scouting would never take them back to ropes. Baden-Powell's equivalent to Cub Scouts includes plenty of knots, as well as 14 nights of camping, 12 day hikes and 6 night hikes. Rovers (adult advancement beyond the equivalent of Eagle) requires a Squire to go on a 14 mile overnight campout with his Rover Sponsor before his application for membership is even considered! The idea that "Scouting" is any corporate product offered by the BSA so long as it aims at Citizenship, Character, and Fitness is a direct result of the 1972 "new and improved" program which took the outing out of Scouting. Varsity Scouting and the new Cub Scout soccer leagues are NOT Scouting, at least as defined by the BSA's Congressional Charter as including training in Scoutcraft using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. Some may cry that it is unrealistic to think that Scoutcraft programs can support six-figure professional salaries and generous retirement benefits in the 21st century. Fine. Just end the corporate monopoly and make room for volunteer Scouting associations that don't call sports and indoor programs "Scouting." Kudu

Jeff writes: I appreciate your comments but the Scoutmaster Handbook that you quoted from is dated from 1972. This edition of the Handbook was the beginning of the "new and improved" Scouting program which proved to be a disaster. The BSA has long since abandoned that program and has moved back to an emphasis on outdoor skills. No. "Boy Leadership" was removed from the Patrol Method in 1972 and elevated to its "new and improved" status as "Leadership Development," an independent Method of Scouting. Leadership became an Advancement requirement, which required that William Hillcourt's position-specific "Patrol Leader Training" (which included a Patrol Hike and a Patrol Campout) be abandoned to make room for "Junior Leader Training:" the same set of abstract leadership skills taught in post-1972 Wood Badge. In theory these skills could be used not just by Patrol Leaders but by the equally worthy Troop Librarians, Scribes, and Historians. A politically correct least common denominator. Baden-Powell awarded one Wood Bead for his Theoretical course and one Wood Bead for what he called the "Practical" outdoor course. The BSA awards two Wood Beads for theory. BSA Wood Badge for the 21st Century places NO emphasis on outdoor skills, and this has its roots in the "new and improved" Scouting program of 1972. Most American Scouters seem to be more than happy with what the Scouting corporation has decided, but you asked about what Baden-Powell would have emphasized :-) Kudu and a good 'ole Beaver too.

uz2bnowl writes: How many of you cook using the Troop method like we do? In fact I had a Patrol Leader tell me yesterday that he hated when patrols cooked and worked only as patrols. The quickest way to move from the "Troop Method" to the "Patrol Method" is to physically separate the Patrols as far as possible. Baden-Powell recommended that Patrols camp no closer than 100 yards apart! Most Troops use the Troop Method because the closer the Patrols, the easier it is for the adults (or for the SPL in a "boy-led" Troop Method unit) to do the Patrol Leader's most difficult job for him: keeping discipline. You could probably express that as a "scientific" formula: The strength of the Patrol Method increases with the distance between Patrols, divided by the charisma and maturity of the Patrol Leader :-) When the patrols cook by themselves how do they get cooking tools? When Patrols camp 300 feet apart, Quartermasters are perhaps more important to a Patrol's happiness than the Patrol Leader! A Patrol can get by with a bad leader as long as everyone is warm, dry, and well fed, but that security depends on having the right equipment. A red-flag of "Troop Method" thinking is the idea that a single "Troop Quartermaster" can be responsible for all of the equipment for all of the far-flung Patrols, or that a qualified Scout is going to be interested in the difficult job of "Patrol Quartermaster" if he doesn't earn Advancement credit and get to wear a position patch for his efforts. A Troop can have more than one Troop Quartermaster, so consider working with the Patrol Leaders to promote the most responsible "details man" in each Patrol to the rank of Troop Quartermaster (rather than Patrol Quartermaster). In return, each should be required to empty out his Patrol's boxes and check off each and every piece of equipment on both the Patrol equipment checklist and cook's equipment list before every campout. To this end, every Troop Quartermaster should have his own clipboard (about $2) with a pen attached by string, and be supplied with a fresh checklist for every campout. Use the Patrol Camping Gear checklist on pages 226-227 of The Boy Scout Handbook to get started. Be sure to avoid those heavy old wood Patrol Boxes. Rubbermaid tote boxes cost about $4 each and last for years. You will need a few of them for every Patrol, and be sure that each Patrol's totes are a different color. Some Troops avoid the trap of lugging Patrol Boxes altogether. Note that on the above checklist the BSA recommends using backpacking stoves even for car-camping, which is very good preparation for when your Scouts get tired of the same old campsites every year and want to get out on the trail free from the chains of the parking lot. Be sure to read Bob Geier's notes on Lightweight Patrol Equipment, see: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm Kudu

Jeffrey H writes: Based on what all of you are telling me, it seems that Woodbadge is not what I thought it was. I realize I have to take what I get, but the old course with more emphasis on outdoor skills sounds more interesting to me and more of what Baden-Powell would have emphasized. Even the name "Woodbadge" implies something that is rugged and outdoors. The heart of Scouting has always been an emphasis on the outdoors and outdoor skills. I expected the top training course for scout leaders to offer the same emphasis. Jeffrey, Modern BSA Wood Badge, which is based on the idea that Scouting leadership can be broken down into a set of abstract managerial skills best taught in a catered classroom rather than in the context of traditional Patrol activities in the great outdoors, has its origin in 1972 when the original Methods of Scouting as written by William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt were replaced by a new modern and "scientific" approach to Scouting. The new Scoutmaster's Handbook summed it up neatly: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill (Scoutmaster's Handbook [1972], page 155), See: http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm In Traditional Baden-Powell Wood Badge, participants earned one bead for the "Theoretical" course, and an additional bead for the "Practical" course. This Practical course was divided by Baden-Powell into four subject areas: Troop Ceremonies, Fieldcraft, Woodcraft, and Signcraft. Much of the content of the Traditional Baden-Powell Wood Badge Practical course can be found on my Web site, "The Inquiry Net," see: http://inquiry.net/traditional/leader/index.htm As far as "you have to take what you can get" goes, it depends on what you want. Yes, if you want official BSA recognition, networking with local Scouters, and the convenience of a local course, then BSA Wood Badge is the way to go. In fact, since "Wood Badge for the 21st Century" is based on pop managerial theory books like The One Minute Manager, some companies even give their employees a week's paid leave to attend! On the other hand, if you are sincerely interested in a Wood Badge course with the emphasis on outdoor skills that Baden-Powell placed upon them, you might consider a "Traditional Scouting" course. For instance Baden-Powell's 1920 Wood Badge course is being offered by the (non-BSA) US Rovers on October 13th 16th 2006 at Caloosahatchee Park, Florida, for $76. See: http://www.usrovers.org/woodbadge/index.htm It says that the deposit deadline was August 1st, but if the course is not closed out they might be flexible. At any rate you can get on a mailing list for next year's course. Similar non-WOSM Traditional Wood Beads courses are also offered in Canada and the UK (non-WOSM Baden-Powell training is usually called "Wood Beads" rather than "Wood Badge"). Kudu

To put things in the proper perspective, when one of my Scouts uses the f-word or calls somebody an a** h***, I tell him that if he keeps acting like the Vice President does in public, then maybe it means we can't trust him to take Rifle (or certainly Shotgun) Merit Badges. That kind of language only leads to getting drunk and shooting somebody in the face! I think it is explained in the new edition of The Guide to Safe Scouting near the prohibition on laser tag. Kudu

Hmm, would one of the moderators check to see why I no longer receive Email notices when someone posts to the threads to which I am subscribed? Beavah writes: BP-Scouts...don't seem to really exist. B-P Scouts works on the model suggested by Baden-Powell: an all-volunteer movement. This means they won't be building air-conditioned offices on a street corner near you :-) For those who call their local BSA Council office so often that the secretaries recognize their voice, obviously the local support of the BSA model is the way to go. However, most of the world works on a different model. For instance, I live a mile from the Canadian border. When I call "Scouts Canada" to make a camping reservation, it is an answering machine at some volunteer's house, and they answer it when they get home from work. B-P Scouting will be more along those lines, but (at least for the time-being) without the camps. campcrafter writes: "Kudu wrote: ... for moderates to get out there and establish alternatives." Kudu, So what is the latest with the BPSA? They have just begun, in the last 90 days, to send out membership packets and applications. Their process is very thorough and goes beyond the BSA in requirements and member protection screening and precaution. I have a copy of their Program Manual and it is a great handbook of how Baden-Powell's kind of Scouting program works. It is not just a stapled together pamphlet. They still don't have a website, but it is under construction and I hope to see it launched soon. Obviously it has taken a great amount of work, and therefore time, to get this program together, but it looks like it has been worth the wait. Their program is thorough and very much in the spirit of the original (and quite similar--original Promise and Scout Law, Traditional Progressive Training [what we call Advancement] requirements, Uniforms & Badges, etc.) and their materials look top notch. If you want to contact them to ask questions or to inquire about getting involved or starting a group, their toll free number is 866-339-0846. Like Scouts Canada, no-one will answer (they are all-volunteer and don't have a receptionist) but leave a message and someone will call you back--probably the president of the National Board of Directors. He seems to be handling allot of the initial communication with new and interested parties. You can also send an email to info.bpsa@gmail.com. Disclaimer: I am in close contact with a few board members and advisers and am pretty familiar with their history and program. I will try to answer questions but I am not officially involved with this group, and do not speak on their behalf. Let me know if you try to get in touch with them without success, and I will see what I can do to help. dan writes: The BSA does not do anything relating to scouting as Baden-Powell used scouting terms, seems that his idea on scouting was tracking and hiding. Yes, dan, 1. Tracking is one of the elements of Scouting that is missing from the current BSA program. Baden-Powell considered it important in building the powers of observation and deduction. "Kim's Game" is another such missing observational requirement. Other missing elements in the BSA's core program include: 2. Signaling: (Actually a different form of observation and interpretation) Options include Morse Code, Semaphore, Indian Sign Language, or ASL--American Sign Language for communicating with the deaf. 3. Scout Journeys: These are expeditions of increasing difficulty undertaken by the Scouts without adult interference. The only remnant of this that remains in the BSA core program is the 2nd Class Five Mile Hike. 4. Current Proficiency: Baden-Powell's program has fewer Proficiency Badges, with advanced "Senior Scouts" versions replacing the elementary beginner Proficiency Badges. Wearing a Proficiency Badge indicates that the Scout is currently proficient in that skill. For instance, if he fails to renew his first aid certification every year, he must remove the first aid badge from his Uniform. For a generic "Americanized" version of Baden-Powell's program (similar to the B-P Scouts version), see: http://inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/index.htm Other differences in programs include: 1) The Scout Uniform. In general, Baden-Powell placed Scoutcraft Badges on the right side of the Scout Uniform. These skills were a means of immersing the Scout in what B-P called "The Religion of the Backwoods." On the left side of the Uniform he placed his Public Service Badges, through which a Scout practiced Service to Others, what B-P called "Practical Christianity." In Baden-Powell's Scouting, a Scout's "Duty to God" was measured by his actions, not by a religious litmus test of his beliefs. Except for 2nd Class (which is replaced by the 1st Class Badge), "Scout's Cord" (which is replaced by the Bushman's Cord), and Scout Proficiency Badges (which are replace by Senior Scout Proficiency Badges) all of a Scout's Badges remain on his Uniform. The Tenderfoot Badge is also known as the "Membership Badge," and is also worn by the adults. Some generic badge-placement diagrams are at: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/placement.htm Some photographs are at: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/index.htm 2. Emphasis on Scouting as a "game." This includes retesting for 2nd & 1st Class skills, but no "Scoutmaster Conferences," "Boards of Review," or "Scout Spirit" requirements as we know them. As William Hillcourt said, "To the Scouts Scouting is a Game--to us, a game with a purpose," but in Baden-Powell's game, if adults fail to impart their values through the very indirect means of the game, they do not have end-run shortcuts to cut off a Scout's progress after he has demonstrated his mastery of the actual Scoutcraft skills required. For 2nd and 1st Class, however, a Scout is required to meet with the Scoutmaster to demonstrate his understanding of the Scout Law and Promise; and with the Court of Honor (known to us as the "PLC") to talk about his involvement in his Patrol and Troop. There is also an national-level interview before earning the St. George Award, the highest youth Award (what we call "rank"). In B-P Scouting, "Award" refers to the mastery of Scoutcraft--eg. Tenderfoot, First Class, Scout Cord; and "Rank" refers to leadership position--eg. Patrol Leader, Troop Leader ("SPL"), Scoutmaster. 3. Rovers: Earning Scoutcraft Awards continues on through adulthood, for those who are so inclined. The highest Award in Scouting is not the the youth Award, but the "Baden-Powell Award" earned by Rovers, with no upper age limit. Kudu

Eamonn writes: I don't seem to remember ever reading or seeing anything in any BSA publications about a Troop Activity Uniform ? Yes, and that is a good thing, Eamonn! Nobody in Irving Texas has sat down and figured out how to "regulate" Troop Activity Uniforms into something that Scouts don't want to wear :-) While many units do go ahead and do their own thing. The wording that the BSA uses doesn't seem to allow much wiggle room: There is always wiggle room, if you look at the sentences with the goal of following the letter of the law while intending to freely interpret the spirit of the rule :-/ "No alteration of or addition to the official uniform, badges, or insigniaor the rules and regulations concerning the wearing of the uniformis permitted. This is from the Insignia Guide, and refers only to the official uniform, not a Troop's Activity Uniform. Uniform parts should not be worn with other clothing. I don't recognize this passage. If it does not appear in the Insignia Guide then it is not really official policy, no matter where it appears. Badges and other insignia should be worn only on the uniform Likewise, I do not believe that this appears in the Insignia Guide. It so (with the exception of a red patch vest that may be used to display temporary insignia) and only as directed by the Insignia Guide, BSA Supply No. 33066 The idea that the red patch vest is the only exception is incorrect. The Insignia Guide lists the red patch vest as one of a number of different unofficial places for excess insignia, which in theory means that a Troop could buy their own nylon tan shirts, affix official BSA insignia, call them "patch blankets" and wear them with their Campmor pants :-) Some one just e-mailed me a lot of photos taken over the last seven weeks at our Council Summer Camp. It would seem that the sale of official BSA pants and shorts are down in our area. I bet the majority were wearing jeans! That is why "Uniform parts should not be worn with other clothing" would never be enforced, even if it were official policy. Many people would simply skip summer camp and Camporees. Jeans and a Scout Shirt are the default universal Uniform, at least in this part of the country. Personally, I am against wearing jeans with a Scout shirt. Fuzzy Bear writes: Uniforms build team spirit and are ideal for outdoor adventures. That is more true of the Activity Uniform of Merri's Troop than the BSA Uniform. *Scouts involved in conservation projects may wear work pants or jeans with their Scout shirts. That directly contradicts "Uniform parts should not be worn with other clothing," doesn't it? :-) I doubt if either statement is official policy, because they are not well thought out. If you can wear jeans on conservation projects, why not other community service projects, or for that matter outdoor Scouting activities where the BSA does not expect the official Uniform to be worn? The BSA Website and handbooks are not the final authority. If you look at the Scouts wearing hit pins in the official Boy Scout Handbook, for instance, you will see that they are ALL wearing the adult hat pin. Eamonn writes: IMHO, what this Troop is doing is worse than a Troop that doesn't have all the Scouts in full and correct uniform. IMNSHO, this Troop represents what is good about grass-roots Scouting. When I wear my BSA Uniform in public, I am sometimes complimented for my stand against Gays, the Godless, and people who burn the American flag. Like it or not, for many people the BSA Uniform has become a symbol of the Religious Right's political agenda. I believe that in every debate about the Uniform, you have have two camps. At the extreme of one end of this spectrum are those who view Scouts who find the Uniform dorky, unpractical, and twenty years out of date, as disrespecting the adult's deeply held beliefs in favor of discrimination. Why else are they so emotional? These adults tend to see wearing the Uniform primarily as enforcement of the Scout Laws of Obedience and Loyalty. At the other end of the spectrum are people like me who believe that since the BSA discarded the Uniform as a Method of Scouting in 1972, and then resurrected it in the 1980s as the unholy indoor hothouse creation of a dress designer, they have not understood that the significance of the Uniform as a Method is as an icon of outdoor adventure that boys actually want to wear. I freely admit I am on this extreme end of the spectrum. I agree with William Hillcourt that Scouts should wear a Uniform at all times when they are Scouting. The Uniform is an outdoor method. If the official BSA uniform is second rate and over-priced, then we have to do what we must to provide our Scouts with an appropriate Troop Activity Uniform. Whenever I spend time with senior executives from Irving Texas, I wear my Troop's Activity Uniform, and when possible I "kick up a fuss" and press them on the issue. I have been surprised to find that some of the executives at the very highest levels of the BSA agree with me. Now that they are releasing official nylon zip-off pants, with any luck this issue will be resolved and we can move on to an outdoor nylon Uniform shirt. But what will Scouters on the Religious Right do if Scouts actually want to wear the official BSA Uniform? Or at the last minute will the BSA snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and find some way to make nylon zip-offs repulsive and unwearable? The answer is only weeks away! Kudu

dan writes: They already have, mustang, impala, civic, special, ..... Which is just like scouts. No, it is not "just like Scouts." "Scouts" and "Scouting" were used to refer to the stand-alone program of Baden-Powell before the BSA was invented, just as "automobile" and "car" were used generically to refer to horseless carriages. The correct analogy of "Mustang," "Impala," or "Civic," is to legitimate inventions of the BSA that use common words that were not previously used in Scouting such as "Star," "Life," "Eagle," or "Merit Badges." "Tenderfoot," "Second Class," "First Class," and "Proficiency Badges" (as well as "Scouts" and "Scouting") were terms already in general use in Scouting before the establishment of the BSA, and are not specifically protected by the Congressional Charter. Kudu

Can they do this? My son has the official uniform pants and I'm annoyed at being told I must buy yet another pair of pants. So you won't be spending $25 this month for pants for school or play that could just as easily be these Campmor zip-off convertible pants? Unlike Official BSA Scout pants that can't be used for anything but hot house indoor meetings, our Scouts use their "Troop Activity Uniform" zip-offs for everything. Most Troops provide fund-raising opportunities by which a Scout can earn money to buy Scout equipment. Short answer...NO. Short answer...YES! For all practical purposes, there is no BSA rule that dictates a Troop's "Activity Uniform" Policy. However, it might be worth seeing what the BSA's official new zip-offs are like, even if they are more expensive. Unlike suppliers like Campmor, Wal-Mart, Target, REI, EMS, etc, the advantage buying from the BSA is that they will be official, and the style won't change every year. See: http:/inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm Kudu

DanKroh writes: Kudu, have you ever had this sort of thing happen with the Baden Powell Scouts? I can't comment on that directly, but as Merlyn_LeRoy notes, the trademark issue will be determined by the YouthScouts case. This is perhaps the first serious challenge to the perceived monopoly since the BSA unsuccessfully tried to force the Girl Scouts to change their name to the Girl Guides in 1924. As I understand the YouthScouts' case, the basic idea is that the Congressional Charter may protect the term "Boy Scouts" but that it does not protect the single generic term "Scouts" any more than it protects the single generic word "Boy." The case is significant because the YouthScouts filed in San Francisco, which is not known as a Religious Right stronghold, and BSA will be forced to appeal any favorable ruling to the Ninth Circuit, which has ruled against the BSA in the past. The YouthScouts website is updated with each and every development in the legal case, see: http://youthscouts.org/news.html If you are really interested in the legal history of the term "Scouts," be sure to look at the YouthScouts' massive online compendium. For instance: http://youthscouts.org/BSAvWrennTTABAnswerCounterclaims.pdf I excerpted some of this information in the thread "Question on BSA and Religion" http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=125243#id_125986 For those who are interested in the idea of Scouting as a religion, the best examination of Baden-Powell's vision of Scouting as a spiritual movement can be found in Tim Jeal's biography, Baden-Powell. I excerpted some of Jeal's key passages in "B-P & Nature Knowledge," see: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm SR540Beaver writes: What if every car company wanted to include the word Chevrolet in their name? Or if every shoe company wanted to call their shoes Nikes or every fast food place wanted to be called McDonalds? The correct analogy is "What if Chevrolet wanted to trademark the generic terms "car" and "automobile"? Or if Nike wanted to trademark the generic terms "shoe" and "sneaker"? Or if McDonald's wanted to trademark the generic terms "hamburger" and "french fries"? As Beavah notes, and the YouthScouts' online material documents in detail, the terms "Scouts" and "Scouting" were used generically to refer to the methods of Baden-Powell's stand-alone program by many Scouting organizations established in the United States before the BSA. Not only single Patrols and Troops form Maine to California, but also those organizations that had further aspirations of forming national Scouting movements. By 1910 these included the publisher William R. Hearst's "American Boy Scout" (later the "United States Boy Scout"); the National Highway Protection Association's "Boy Scouts of the United States;" "The Peace Scouts of California;" the "National Scouts of America," formed by a military school in Manlius, NY; and "The YMCA Scouts." If you have the Kid Scouts of America with Troops and Patrols and they have no youth protection guidelines in place and allow kids to sleep in tents with adults, guess who gets painted with the same brush of criticism when a problem arises? Every organization with Scouts in their name. This is a two-edged sword, because it is the BSA that tarnishes the good name of Scouting by asserting that "Scouting's values" include going to court to exclude a six-year-old boy because his parents will not sign a religious edict that requires the recognition of the god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings as necessary for the best type of citizenship. This "sins of the father" approach is the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's notion of Scouting as "catching hooligans" and changing their values through the indirect methods he called the game of Scouting. It is also the exact opposite of the teachings of Jesus as they are understood by many Christians (tolerate the little children, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of heaven). It is the Religious Right that is riding the coat tails of a century of heavy-lifting by well-meaning volunteers, in order to impose its policies of discrimination on Scouting. This is the central problem with mere reformist organizations such as "Scouting for All." SfA does not adequately recognize that it is the BSA's unholy monopoly on Scouting that allows it to be the only Scouting association in all of the Western World that asserts that discrimination against Girls and Gays is a "Scouting value." The best way to free Scouting from the exclusionary polices of the BSA's religious corporate brand, is to support the YouthScouts' challenge to the legal monopoly on Scouting, and for moderates to get out there and establish alternatives. What the BSA fears most is not the small victories of SfA and the ACLU, but the infinitely more powerful American value of freedom in the marketplace of ideas. Kudu

The following "School Presentation for Recruiting Sixth-Graders" works well if you can get acces to a local private or public school, or other group of sixth-grade boys: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Kudu

Almost a hundred years ago Baden-Powell, the inventor of Boy Scouting, found it necessary to write rules against wearing women's clothing while playing Wide Games in towns: The game may be played in a town with two houses chosen as starting-place and besieged town respectively, and the dispatch-runner can adopt any disguise (except that of a woman), so long as he wears the rag pinned to his shoulder. See: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/b-p/scouting.htm Of course B-P was well-known for wearing women's clothing while performing comedy when he was in the army. Tim Jeal may have even included a photograph in his biography Baden Powell. Cross-dressing has probably always been considered funny to everyone but religious fundamentalists. Shakespeare used it in his comedies. The term "gray area" means neither black or white. The Northeast document notes: "Can be great fun. Area that most probably fits into the 'not what is done, but how it's done' category." The Northeast Region document was written by Douglas C. Fullman, see The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/gray_areas.htm A number of years ago our female Assistant Scoutmaster tried to stamp out fart humor without much success. Geoffrey Chaucer used it in the "Canterbury Tales," and while most of the English language has changed since the 14th century, the spelling of this word remains the same. The acronym PADBALLS is no longer used in summer camps around here for the reason that Ed cites. Nobody can remember the new politically-correct acronym. Perhaps natural selection will solve this. Kudu