Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: I get that you love scouting but hate the current BSA program. I'm sure everyone here gets that....I don't mean to offend you, be rude or discourage you, but you are not going to change the BSA back to what you remember and love. That was then and this is now. SR540Beaver, I get that you love religion but hate the current Baptist church. I'm sure everyone here gets that.... Your descriptions of the old vs. the new services have the ring of truth to them, and as such are of value in and of themselves. However, the conclusions that you draw do not follow. I'd love to find a church like the one I grew up in. To me, THAT is church, not this rock concert, circus atmosphere. But try as I might, I can't find one like I grew up in. As local1400 points out, churches like you want to find are alive and well in NH at least. So as a Baptist it is up to you to decide what your priorities are. You have the freedom to find an existing church like local's; or, as you say, start one yourself; or just to follow the crowd. This is called the freedom of religion. As a Baptist you have a right to pursue your quest, but as a Scouter you do not have that right. The activist courts have ruled that Congress has established religion with a monopoly on Scouting. Imagine how hard it would be for you if the BSA state church used the lawyers it now hires to search the Internet for groups that use the term "scouts," if they also searched for the term "church" so that they could sue local1400's little congregation out of existence. The BSA would then be free to do what it does best: To use the 3 or 4 mega screens around your own "worship center" to sing a repetitive "praise chorus" to Ken Blanchard and to train everyone to be a "One Minute Baptist." I think you get the picture. Church ain't what it used to be.....but it continues to draw in new generations that need it. Right or wrong, the trappings have changed with the times while the core message has remained. If you want to further compare Scouting with religion, I'd be happy to debate this with you in the Issues & Politics forum. I would submit that the BSA going to court to keep a six-year-old boy out of Scouting because of his father's religious views is the exact opposite of the "core message" of Jesus: a primary concern for the weak, defenseless, and powerless members of society: "Do not forbid the little children, for they are of the Kingdom of Heaven." Furthermore, it is precisely the "trappings that have changed with the times" (in this case the Christian fundamentalist pursuit of political power) which are directly responsible for the complete corruption of the core message of Jesus. The Patrol Method is not a mere "trapping" of Scouting, it is the ONLY method of Scouting. What I don't think will be productive is to stand in the hallways outside the worship center and tell everyone walking thru the door that what is going on inside is wrong and not church. You may think that this is a "worship center" to sing a repetitive "praise chorus" to the BSA. But Scouter.Com is a forum designed to discuss Scouting and it is dedicated to William Hillcourt. So what could be more appropriate than to discuss here the current BSA program and William Hillcourt's Patrol Method? I appreciate that you are the lone voice shouting from the wilderness. Please appreciate that many of us see value in older elements of the program, but feel an obligation to deliver the program as it is designed today. I'm sure that the same thing was true the first time that the BSA used its monopoly on Scouting to kill the Patrol System, Beaver. I'll bet that back then the "Enforcers" of BSA Scouting also "felt an obligation to deliver the program as it is designed today:" BSA Trainer: "From what you are saying, it sounds like you are you allowing boys of 56.75 inches to remain in a 56.5 inch Patrol." "Scout Master" "Well, yes, one boy did grow a quarter of an inch, but it seemed a shame to force him to leave the Beaver Patrol just because he grew a little faster than his friends." BSA Trainer: "The BSA Handbook for Scout Masters clearly states that the Patrol Grouping Standard is 56.5 inches. Nowhere does it allow you to base Patrol membership on friendship. How do you expect to run a successful Troop if you don't follow the BSA program?" "Scout Master" "I left the decision up to his Patrol Leader." BSA Trainer: "You did WHAT???????? You let a Patrol Leader DECIDE something?????" "Scout Master" "Well, yes." BSA Trainer: "The more we learn about your Troop's program the worse it gets! The Handbook for Scout Masters states very clearly that 'care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols.' What you are doing is very very DANGEROUS, you are placing your entire unit at risk because 'There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head.' We are talking about SAFETY here!" "Scout Master" "Well, I can't be there to make every decision myself" BSA Trainer: "Here again the Handbook for Scout Masters is VERY clear. The Scout Master, not the Patrol Leader, is the leader in Scouting, and if the Scout Master must delegate some small matter then he must be careful to keep the Patrol Leaders OUT of the decision-making process: 'if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan'." "Scout Master" "OK, but according to Baden-Powell, Scouting is based on something called the Patrol System." BSA Trainer: "BADEN-POWELL??????????" "Scout Master" "Yes, Baden...." BSA Trainer: "Welcome to the Boy Scouts of AMERICA in 1913! The last time that I checked, Baden-Powell was not even an AMERICAN. And get with the times! When Baden-Powell wrote that stuff about a 'Patrol System' the BSA did not even EXIST! His out-dated methods simply do not apply to the modern American Boys of 1913. That was then and this is now! The Handbook for Scout Masters says that the 56.5 inch Patrol 'Grouping Standard will doubtless become the real basis of all groupings in the future.' Get with the program. It is precise. It is scientific. It is American. It is the FUTURE OF SCOUTING!" "Scout Master" "Well, why is B-P's Patrol System missing from the BSA?" BSA Trainer: "Look, before the Handbook for Scout Masters was printed, it was reviewed by 10,000 Scouters. These are ALL of the experts in the field of Scouting, including ALL of the most successful Troops in the entire nation. Not a single one of these 10,000 Scouters cared that the Patrol System was missing. Do you really think that you know more about Scouting than all of these 10,000 Scouters combined?" "Scout Master" "It is not MY idea, it is Baden-Powell's idea!" BSA Trainer: "When you became a Scout Master you promised to follow the program of the BSA. Are you going to keep your promise, or are you going to be a bad role model? A Scout is loyal and obedient!" So, SR540Beaver, nobody wants to be the lone voice shouting from the wilderness. But fast-forward ten years and we find James West introducing "a radical change in the management of troops" called the "Patrol Method." The BSA may never allow Historians to examine how the Patrol Method finally came to be established in the BSA, but it is reasonable to assume that someone got to West and explained that the Patrol System is the whole point of Scouting. Can anyone in this day and age get to the millionaire CEO who runs the BSA and convince him that teaching a Patrol Leader how to be a Patrol Leader is more important than teaching his Scoutmaster how to be a CEO? Maybe not. But as BSA summer camps with their central dining halls continue to be sold off to pay for more "important" things, Troops may once more have a practical need for Traditional Patrol Leaders rather than little One Minute Managers. And if the state church of Scouting is ever deregulated to allow Patrol-based Scouting associations to compete with the Blanchard Scouts of America, maybe some guy working at the BSA will finally read one of Hillcourt's old Scoutmaster Handbooks just to learn how this "radical change in the management of troops" called the "Patrol Method" works. Kudu

yellow_hammer writes: just left our local middle school where I gave my version of the "campfire recruiting" pitch. Details at http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm I am happy to hear that my recruiting presentation worked so well for your BSA unit! I divide the recruiting process into four phases: I: Selling Danger and Adventure to Sixth Graders Out of about 50 sixth grade boys who attended there were 14 who signed the sheet asking us to give their parents a call about scouts. I was prepared to be happy with 2 or 3 sign-ups so I am thrilled with 14. In the future you will see this rise to a consistent 50% rate for you. The number of boys who sign up is directly proportional to how much you push bears, snakes, fire, guns, knives, archery; and Traditional Scouting skills such as saving lives, walking into a forest with a map & compass & a pack on your back and finding your way without a foot-trail; cooking over a fire; and most importantly pitching a tent in the very scary deep dark woods. Oh yeah, and if your local school forbids it, don't forget to mention DODGE BALL! As I passed around the sign-up sheets and asked for questions I got stone silence. The ideal person to answer these questions is an older Scout who might be already known to them as a local sports hero. This is a great place for them to meet their future Patrol Leader. II: Selling the Program to Parents Of course, not all of them will join but maybe we'll get half. If your experience is similar to mine you will find that of the 14 boys who gave you their name and parents' phone number: 2 parents will never answer their phone (caller ID?). 2 parents will hide behind their answering machine and never call you back. 3 parents at this point in the academic year will tell you that their son's school work is suffering because he is involved in too many activities, and they have already cut back on the number of sports, etc. in which they allow him to participate. The remaining 7 parents may be willing to give you one minute (60 seconds) to make your case. The single most important tool you have at this critical point is the fourth column of the "Yes, I Want to Go Camping!" sign-up sheet in which you asked each boy to indicate what part of your "camping program" he most wants to try. When you personalize the conversation by knowing exactly what their son is interested in, you will notice a sudden shift in the conversation. Rather than resisting you as yet another telemarketer you are now someone who knows something positive and true about their son, and you might provide a valuable resource. When he has already told his parents that he was excited about your presentation, the common response I hear then is a conspiratorial "To be honest with you, it never, ever occurred to me that my son would take an interest in Boy Scouts! This "Selling the Program to Parents" is the most challenging part of the process, and I am open to the suggestions that anyone may have to offer. It is hard to describe here in words the deep frustration that you will feel when you hit a brick wall on the telephone, or later at the meeting you realize that the "definite maybe" they gave you on the phone did not turn out. A frank discussion in this thread about how to sell things to people on the phone would be very valuable. I do know that the more excited his or her son is about going camping, the more likely it is that a parent will drive their son to a meeting. I usually try an aggressive "Ask for it by name" approach during the assembly: "If you want to go camping with us, TELL YOUR PARENTS AS SOON AS YOU GET HOME, and give them this information sheet." Unfortunately the attention span of a sixth-grader is not very long. The biggest hit was the hot sparks. I had several and almost all the boys wanted to try them. Try offering a "Free Spark Tool" to everyone who shows up for the important first Troop meeting, to be awarded after earning his Fire 'n Chip card at his first campout. III: A Successful First Meeting Unlike "Selling the Program to Parents" the success of this phase of the recruiting process is completely under your control. Simply put, if their first meeting lives up to the Promise of Scouting that you offered in the school assembly, often 100% of the boys who do show up will be so excited that their parents will sign the application. The theme of this first meeting should be obvious: "Learn How to Use a Spark Tool." I collect bags of long pine needles during the year. At their first meeting each Scout gets to borrow a Spark Tool to light a cotton ball and pine needles outdoors on an old pie tin or metal plate. Their Patrol Leader then teaches them how to start a fire, along with a little about fire safety. After that the new Scouts play dodge ball in their permanent Patrol. I like to pit the entire Troop against the oldest Patrols so that the new Scouts are on the winning side. The more unfair these sides are, the better :-) The second meeting should be a presentation by their Patrol Leader about what to bring to camp. He should have them turn to the equipment list in their Scout Handbooks and make a contest out of being the first to identify each item on the list as he unpacks it from his backpack. Ask him to stress the labels on his non-cotton clothing, and use equipment that can be found around the house, asking them if they already have something similar that they can use without buying anything. IV: First Year Retention Some random things you are not likely to read elsewhere: A. Good Experience First Campout. 1) If you decide to continue with the theme of fire, plan on having them all earn "Fire 'n Chip" (and if possible Second Class fire-making with a Second Class foil meal cooked over coals). 2) Do NOT trust the weather: Have a "Plan B" dry lean-to or cabin available if you are camping outside in warm weather. Leave all that "learning through bad experiences" stuff for later. 3) Poop School: After arriving at camp conduct First Grade Poop School with instructions at the latrine on how to use it. It may seem obvious to you, but it isn't. Second Grade Poop School covers cat holes: if you mentioned wilderness camping they will be wondering about how to poop in the deep woods, but remember that this is a scary subject. More new Scouts fear outhouses and cat-holes than monsters, bears, bugs, and fear of the dark combined. B. The Best Patrol Leader in the Troop 1) Really, I'm not kidding. 2) If you use Traditional Patrols, use your influence with the PLC to get the new Scouts into the Patrols of the very best Patrol Leaders. Consider holding Patrol contests designed to decide on this in the months ahead of your recruiting presentation. If you don't have any good Patrol Leaders, then consider a Baden-Powell modified NSP. 3) If you use a New Scout Patrol (NSP), consider adapting it to Baden-Powell's Patrol System. This means the Scoutmaster personally asks the very best Junior Leader in the entire Troop to serve as the NSP Patrol Leader. The ideal candidate is an Eagle Scout sports hero who has already been SPL and is looking for a new challenge. He really will enjoy their adoration. Support him, and make sure his best bud is also associated with the Patrol as APL, Troop Guide, or Patrol "Troop Quartermaster" so that he is not isolated from his age-peers (because if you are using the real Patrol Method, your Patrols are separated from each other at campouts). If you've been thinking of trying something like this then I encourage you to give it a try. It was fun! Thanks again, I'm glad you enjoyed it :-) Kudu

With the introduction of the BSA Switchback pants and the reported sightings of 4-Bead Wood Badge types actually wearing them, it is no longer an impossible dream to imagine the BSA producing an outdoor Uniform. In a real Scouting association, the term outdoor uniform is redundant :-) As I see it, the priorities of a Scout Uniform are: 1) Practical outdoor wear: We caught a big break with the introduction of the Switchbacks. I've been using similar nylon cut-offs as my Scout pants now for ten years. They are remarkably practical for most Scout outings, and reasonably acceptable on the extreme margins (swim trunks/snow pants). The only thing they are especially bad at is bushwhacking through thorn bushes :-) I have not tried out the breathable nylon BSA Action Shirt, but I sewed a set of patches on a similar shirt ten years ago and it has worked well from backpacking in the summer to a layer in the winter. 2) Scream HIGH ADVENTURE! when worn indoors: The reason that boys join Scouting is to go camping. High adventure clothing keeps the Promise of Scouting before us at all times. 3) Reinforce the other Methods of Scouting: A Scout Uniform should indicate a Scout's Position of Responsibility, his Rank, his Patrol, Council, etc. 4) Classical look: Form should follow outdoor function, but with practical eye on tradition. I am in general agreement with Gonzo1's comments in the Factory Scouting discussion, except for the idea of bringing back the colored background POR and Rank badges. I put these on the same level as the hideous dress-designer red shoulder loops (the buttons on the epaulets also make the shirts impractical for backpacking). I think Scout Badges should be the same color as the shirt as much as possible so as not to stand out from a distance. I especially like his term Elvis collars. I do believe that the collars of a Scout Uniform should be designed to fit under a Scout Neckerchief (the most universal symbol of Scouting in the entire world) even if the Neckerchief is not commonly used. B-P designed the Neckerchief to keep the sun from burning the back of the neck, and I am told that it keeps the body cooler in hot weather by wicking the sweat away from the body. Neckerchiefs seem to go in and out of favor with the Scouts in our Troop, but I can't say I ever enjoy wearing them in the summer. Kudu

Wow, rather cranky aren't we? Um, Fox News much, SR540Beaver? We had our annual Wood Badge reunion this past Saturday. You'd be surprised how many 2, 3 and 4 bead "enforcers" had on their Switchbacks just like me. My point exactly! For all of their zeal in sacrificing the Outdoor Method and the Patrol Method to the 1972 malignant cancer upon Scouting we call "Leadership Development," Wood Badge "enforcers" are followers not leaders. The Outdoor "Switchbacks" were finally introduced because enough of us Scouters turned our back on the stupid idea of forcing Scouts to wear the BSA indoor FACTORY Uniform pants. Indoor Uniforms are NOT the Uniform Method. The true Uniform Method is an Outdoor Method. The Switchbacks have some serious flaws, but if we support this product then the BSA might be pressured to introduce a similar "Class A" version of the breathable nylon BSA Action Shirt: "Beat the heat while you're in action with this lightweight, breathable shirt. Shirt keeps cool with wicking capabilities and a bi-swing back with mesh inserts. Features two locker loops, chest pockets with hook-and-loop closures, and a buttoned-down collar." See: http://tinyurl.com/ytkkbv To understand what BSA Scouting really is and what BSA Wood Badge should teach about BSA Scouting, read William Hillcourt's 3rd Edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters available at: http://tinyurl.com/ysxtpt To find the 3rd Edition, look for the mention of Volume 1 or Volume 2 in the title or the description. You can find two volume sets for as little as $25. Copies from the late 1930s are printed on a better grade of paper and are easier to read, BUT copies of Volume 1 of the later 1940s printings include a detailed version of William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training (PLT) which is of great importance. Unfortunately PLT was destroyed in 1972 to make way for Leadership Development's "JLT. This 3rd Edition is over 1,100 pages long (four times the information contained in the current Scoutmaster's Handbook), and EVERY page crackles with the excitement of the BSA's discovery of the Patrol Method. If you love Scouting the eleven hundred pages will fly by as you read them. I challenge you to find a single page without at least one great idea that can not be used directly or adapted to improve your Troop's program. The subtitle is A Manual of Leadership. This is real BSA Scouting leadership, not Ken Blanchard corporate Wood Badge. Read the BSA's 3rd Edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters and discover real BSA Scouting for the very first time. Kudu

Eamonn writes: It's a shame you felt the need to add the little digs in about Wood Badge. Wood Badge needs more than a just a few "little digs," Eamonn. To return the BSA Patrol Method to the BSA would require a major excavation of Wood Badge. No discussion of FACTORY Scouting should ignore that the content of Wood Badge is a business course for FACTORY managers. Of all the people on Earth, those who hold the Wood Badge should be the most concerned about the Patrol Method. Of all the Scouting forums on Earth, Scouter.Com (with its Site Dedication to William Hillcourt on the lower right hand side of your computer screen at this very minute) should be the place where his real (that is the pre-1972) BSA Patrol Method is discussed. For all of the rousing renditions of "Back to Gilwell" sung at Wood Badge, no effort is made to understand Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" upon which the song is based. What Wood Badge produces then are not inquirers into the nature of Scouting and a resulting informed volunteer force dedicated to preserving real Scouting, but rather "enforcers" of whatever hair-brained pop-leadership fad is popular in the air-conditioned corporate world at any given time. This enforcer mentality only increases with the number of Beads one wears. Nowhere was this more obvious than in the hostility with which most (if not all) 4-Beaders fought against Scouts wearing nylon zip-off uniform pants since their invention ten years ago. The irony is that at least three of the most highly-placed senior BSA executives in Irving Texas recognized the significance of this advancement in outdoor gear right away and tried to introduce them as an official BSA Uniform as soon as they appeared in the high-end camping gear market of the mid 1990s. I wonder if it took ten years to finally produce the Switchbacks at least in part due to the fierce loyalty with which 4-Beaders framed the brain-dead Uniform Method of Scouting in terms of "A Scout is Obedient" to the shockingly inferior indoor dress-designer FACTORY product forced upon Scouts through Scout Spirit and BOR blackmail that holds the Advancement Method hostage to the misunderstood Uniform Method. If it takes another ten years for the BSA to finally offer a breathable nylon Uniform Shirt, how long will it take after 2017 for the first 4-Beader to realize that the Uniform Method is an Outdoor Method? I can tell you exactly: As soon as some fat corporate executive wearing too much after-shave and sitting in an air-conditioned corporate office in the deep south TELLS him that the Uniform Method is an Outdoor Method. The day that Wood Badge has any Scouting credibility is the day that everyone who holds the Wood Badge knows as much about Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt as they do about indoor corporate gurus like Kenneth Blanchard and can answer the following question correctly: Which of the following quotes was never said by Baden-Powell? 1) Scouting is a Game with a Purpose. 2) The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method! 3) Take a minute every once in a while out of your day to look at your performance, and see whether or not your behavior matches your goal I challenge you all to find a SINGLE 4-Beader in the ENTIRE United States who does not read my posts but knows the correct answer. Kudu

A couple of weeks ago I tried a Coleman closed-cell foam. Does anyone know the price? I believe they are a little more expensive than the Wal-Mart pads but probably still cheap enough to justify buying two. The Coleman pads are a little wider than the Wal-Mart pads that I have, but not as thick. They are a nicer green color, and have a couple of attached drawstrings that make it very easy to tie them into the rolled-up position. I was skeptical at first of the tie-strings, but they really are a nice feature. All closed-cell foam pads are so light that you can strap them anywhere on the back of an internal or external frame pack without messing up your weight distribution. If you go with a more expensive brand avoid the denser versions that have sculpted ridges cut into them. Whatever the theory is (denser foam does not bend as well), a single ridged mat melts a LOT more snow under it than does using two of the cheap mats. I watched a guy try and blow up some over-sized Coleman pad the other weekend. It was to be inflated with some sort of rechargeable pump. Standard blow-up air mattresses are on the "Absolutely NOT" winter camping list. They circulate cold air under you all night and thereby draw the heat away from your body through a process called convection. Kudu

GernBlansten, My $7 cheapo Wal-Mart "Camper's Pads" are thicker than any of the $30 mats that I have looked at. Two of them are about three times the thickness of the expensive ones. You might want to check before you buy because mine are a few years old. I've slept on a single $7 mat many times and I can't imagine anything else being any warmer. The advantage of using two of them is the increased comfy level without the potentially serious problem that you have when your Therm-a-Rest springs a leak many miles from the trail-head. I admire Eamonn's courage because I would not want to find out how well a Therm-a-Rest patch kit works at 3 AM when the temperature is 10 degrees below zero :-/ The simple test of the insulation value of two different mats is to compare the indentation in the snow of two campers (caused by body heat melting the snow) after you roll up the tent. My cheapo $7 Wal-Mart mat wins every time. YMMV. Kudu

I bought a half-dozen of the blue closed-cell foam pads to loan out to Scouts who turn up for tent campouts without them. They cost about $7 each at Wal-Mart, not $30. I think Wal-Mart calls them "Camper's Pads." I switched to them myself when my expensive Therm-a-Rest sprung a leak at a winter campout and I discovered that the cheap $7 Wal-Mart pad that I had placed under the Therm-a-Rest kept me nice and warm. At $7 each, two (2) mats are better than one because you lose much more heat to downward conduction to the frozen earth or snow than you do to upward radiation through a good sleeping bag. Having two pads also doubles the "comfy" factor and allows a Scout to spread them out a little if he tends to roll around and off the pad while he is asleep. I was glad that I always carried two of them when one time while staffing a Council Okpik course, backpacking at temperatures in the single digits, my buddy's expensive Therm-a-Rest sprung a leak 15 miles from the parking lot :-/ You can pay more than $7 for closed-cell foam mats that look more high-tech with sculpted channels and designer colors but I do not believe they are any warmer. Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: Welcome to the Boy Scouts of AMERICA in 2007. Thank you very much for your welcome, but I have been here for a while already. In fact, I probably volunteer as much time to my local BSA Council as you. Your emphasis on "AMERICA" is misleading. If McDonald's had a monopoly like the BSA, then a SR540Burger would answer critics of fried burgers by taunting "Welcome to the McDonald's of AMERICA in 2007. Broiled burgers are old-fashioned! It may have been possible to broil a burger 100 years ago but tastes change and nobody likes that anymore! Modern kids want fried burgers with fried leadership development lessons!" There is no inescapable or inevitable "American" or "2007" characteristic that forces us to abandon the Patrol Method. In a nutshell, the history of the Patrol Method in the BSA can be summed up as three periods: 1910-1923 -> Patrol Leaders are kept powerless by the Scoutmaster: YMCA theory. 1923-1971 -> Patrol Leaders run the Troop and the SPL serves at their pleasure: The introduction of the Patrol Method in 1923 and its rise as "The ONLY Method!" under William Hillcourt. 1972-2007 -> Patrol Leaders' power redistributed to TROOP SPL, TROOP Guide, and regular TROOP elections driven by the need for everyone to "get their turn" at a POR to meet artificial Leadership Development Advancement requirements: The invention of the "Leadership Development" Method of Scouting in 1972. I would find it hard to believe that an innovator like Baden-Powell would expect American Scouting in 2007 to be run exactly as he did it in Britain in 1907. Maybe, but I doubt it. "Exactly" is a straw-man argument that implies that Scouts with kerosene lanterns and horse carts are the only alternative to Boy Scout Factory Camps that do not use the Patrol Method. Baden-Powell Scouting is a subset of Traditional Scouting which plays Baden-Powell's game of Scouting as it was played before the world-wide WOSM modernization movement in the late 1960s and early 1970s. It makes changes in the 1960s program only for reasons of 1) Health & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns (LNT), 3) Lightweight Equipment, 4) National Cultural & Climate Variations (Native Cultures, Uniforms designed for the local outdoor climate, etc.). Baden-Powell as a Scouting philosopher would support the Patrol System in all Scout outings: I strongly advise small camps of about half a dozen Patrols: each in a separate tent and on separate ground, so that the Scouts do not feel themselves to be part of a big herd, but members of independent responsible units. Patrols should be kept intact under all circumstances. [Footsteps of the Founder, page 107] If you want to operate that way, there is nothing stopping you and the "BPUSA" from doing so. Um, nothing but the unlimited legal resources of a wealthy corporate monopoly. BTW, I took your suggestion of calling their toll free number to ask them some questions. The number is disconnected and they have no website. It is not disconnected but they are having technical problems. I can provide a phone number or Email address to anyone who is actually considering establishing a Group. Just send me a private Email. It appears that the First Tarrant Group in Fort Worth, TX is the only Baden Powell troop in the US according to Google searches and any foreign BP sites I can find. No, but no small alternative association is ever going to win a numbers debate. Local BPSA Groups should avoid an Internet presence for the time being. Perhaps you could channel your creative efforts into drafting a Scoutmaster Minute that explains to Scouts how they can judge how correct an idea is by the number of hits a Google search returns. This will help you get started: "A Scout is Trustworthy" = 16,200 Websites; "Dumb and Dumber" 1,090,000 Websites :-) First Tarrant has not updated their website since 2002, so I'm not even sure how viable they are. Apparently they are better at lashing pioneering towers than at updating their Website. I thought you were a BP commissioner and would know their status. Like everyone else here, I speak only for myself and not for any association with which I am affiliated. I assume that your curiosity is a reflection of the fact that your love of Scouting as a Movement is so great that you want to be able to direct congregations that are looking for alternatives to the BSA to other Scouting associations. I suggest that they contact BPSA-USA themselves. Baden-Powell Scouting is for Groups like those who formed the very first Troops in the USA before there was a giant Scouting corporation. They must have a pioneering spirit and a reason to do so. At best Traditioal Scouting will only be a small niche market but we can discuss how Baden-Powell's Patrol System works, and for old-timers contrast that with how William Hillcourt's Patrol Method works. We can discuss how Baden-Powell's Ideals, Outdoor, Advancement, and Uniform "Methods" differ from those of the BSA, and how the so-called "Eight Methods" are only a theory of how Scouting works. So these discussions may have some little value to readers who are interested in Scouting as a movement and wish to view their own program from a completely different perspective. Boys do this within their patrol on every campout they go on thru the year. What is to be gained additionally by doing it for a week at summer camp? How is it going to strengthen their patrol bond by cooking or doing KP an additional week out of the year. Most boys want and expect their summer camp experience to be different from their monthly outing. They want it to be the cherry on top. By the same logic they should abandon the "Team Method" if their school gets to the playoffs. They play on teams all season long, what is to be gained by doing the same thing after the regular season ends? How is that going to strengthen their "bond"? If school teams stopped playing against each other they could all relax, get to know the members on the other team and the referees on a personal level. They would all feel good about themselves over what they can accomplish together. For instance they could use playoffs game time to visit an ice cream parlor and get an ice cream sundae with a cherry on top! Isn't that cherry what being on a team is all about? Kudu "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!" --Roland Phillips

jblake47 writes: Tom Slade: AT TEMPLE CAMP, by Percy Reese Fitzhugh, explicitly states that that early camp had a mess hall where the food was prepared.... Um, Tom Slade was a fictional character who was also a "parachute jumper" and a "motorcycle dispatch rider" in the Great War. Perhaps poor Tom suffered shell-shock and confused his Scout camp memories with those of eating in army mess halls while "Boy Scouting" "With the Boys Over There." If the patrol method was adhered to it wasn't all that strict when it came to the mess hall. Back then the Patrol Method was not adhered to at all in the BSA was it? The BSA did not adopt the Patrol Method as a "radical change in the management of troops" until September 21, 1923, thirteen years after the May 3rd, 1910 meeting in which the conservative Christian YMCA convinced William D. Boyce of the need for a Scouting monopoly in the United States. Understand that Tom Slade: At Temple Camp was written in 1917 at the time that the BSA Handbook for Scout Masters presented as gospel YMCA theory that was the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's Patrol System. For instance the official BSA Patrol "Grouping Standards" suggested that the "Scout Master" divide the Troop up into Patrols according to social class: A simple and rather satisfactory way of grouping is by the, school boy or wage-earning boy standard. If the boy happens to be in the grammar school, he may be grouped with boys of his own educational advancement; so with the boys who are in the secondary or high schools, and the same may be said of working boys who are forced to earn their own livelihood. http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/group_standard.htm Is this not the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's successful 1907 Brownsea Island experiment in which he drew half of the Scouts each from the two social classes by which the BSA now divided them? Was the rejection of the division of Scouts by their social class not the principle reason for the Scout Uniform? Another one of the BSA's official Patrol "Grouping Standards" was the "Height and Weight Standard:" If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight. Presumably the kind of people who now marvel at the wisdom of the BSA and attack other Scouters for expressing skepticism about the BSA's rules stood dutifully by the door of their Troop rooms with a tape measure and a scale to make sure that no boy in the under "fifty-six and a half inches in height" Patrol had disqualified himself from membership in his Patrol by growing to 56 3/4 inches or 111 pounds. Likewise at the time when Tom Slade: At Temple Camp was published, the BSA's understanding of the role of Patrol Leaders was exactly wrong: The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm Even someone who has been to One Minute Manager Wood Badge should be able to understand that the BSA then and now adopts weird anti-Patrol System theories that have nothing to do with Real Scouting. SR540Beaver writes: Having worked with three troops, I can honestly say I've never encountered a patrol who wanted to do patrol cooking at summer camp. The fact that a Scouter can honestly say he has never encountered a Patrol that wanted to do Patrol cooking at summer camp should not be surprising. The official "Grouping Standards" and "Six Principles of Boy-Work" cited above were distributed to 10,000 BSA Scouters for their comments before publication. None of these 10,000 BSA Scouters wondered why Baden-Powell's Patrol System was missing: The preparation of the first issue of this book proceeded slowly in spite of the insistent demands from the Field for it, in order that the final book might represent the best thought and procedure. It was published first in a series of pamphlets, which were made available to the Field and, in 1913, 10,000 copies in proof form were printed. The Executive Board authorized the distribution of these, without cost, to the men actively engaged in Scouting at that time, and authorized the sale of the proof edition at $.25 each. At that time, there was considerable concern as to whether the book would meet the needs of all the men in the Field. By circular letter and through the magazine SCOUTING, all of the active Scoutmasters and other Scout Officials, were urged to submit their suggestions as to changes. No radical changes were suggested, and in 1914 the first edition was printed [The History of the Boy Scouts of America, pages 397-398]. I'm sure that like SR540Beaver who has never met a Patrol that wanted to use the real Patrol System at summer camp, all 10,000 of these Scouters could honestly say that they had never met a Patrol Leader who (contrary to BSA dogma): 1) Wanted authority in the supervision of his Patrol. 2) Believed that the success of the troop affairs and supervision of Patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Patrol Leaders. 3) That the Patrol System did not present a danger of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. 4) That the activities of the Patrol should be left to the judgment of the Patrol Leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the Patrol and Troop, that the Patrol Leaders, not the whole group, should reach a decision in regard to the plan. Now as then if the Patrol System rather than non-Scouting theory was the subject of training such as Wood Badge, 10,000 Scouters would not strive to be the one minute managers of summer camp Scouting Factories. Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: Many troops simply don't have the resources available to them to put on their own show. I've read your posts on this topic before and you are more than aware of the logistics involved in pulling something like that off. As I understood it, the option being discussed was an extended weekend "mini" Summer Camp for new Scouts. If you limit the "water front" to wading in a creek, I do not see how an extended weekend cooking in significantly separated Patrols and working on T-2-1 requirements with a Patrol Leader is beyond the resources available to ANY Scout Troop. Of course it does mean that you need a real Patrol Leader, not a one-minute-manager :-/ This extended weekend is also a practical place to experiment with some of Bob Geier's "roll your own" Troop Summer Camp ideas (referenced above) for older Scouts on a limited trial basis. If you can't, you do the next best thing. If its not done in Patrols, its not Scouting: A first-rate citizenship training program maybe, but not Scouting. The difference between Patrol camping and fake Scouting is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug. The bottom line is Patrol Cooking. We had to do the "next best thing" once. Yes we compromised! We had a Patrol of Scouts who had been in Scouting for only a few weeks before leaving for summer camp, and no available real Patrol Leader. We had an older Scout show them how to cook, and the adults even washed their breakfast dishes in addition to their own when necessary so that the new Scouts could get to their first of five Factory Merit Badge Classes as a Patrol (the PLC voted for Factory Summer Camp, but I discourage T-2-1 programs). By the end of the week they were good cooks and a real, working Patrol. Yes you really can cook by Patrols without interfering with the pristine Factory Scouting school schedule experience! Summer camp as it exists today has evolved out of a supply and demand need. No. "Supply and demand" is a function of a free market and we Americans do not yet have that freedom. Scouting is controlled by the state and limited to the whims of a single religious organization that values advancement and corporate leadership skills over William Hillcourt's historic BSA Patrol Method. Perhaps selling off Factory Camps to pay for professional salaries, retirement benefits, multi-million dollar offices, and otherwise "keeping the council liquid" is a blessing in disguise. William Hillcourt's 1938 BSA Handbook for Scoutmasters devoted 160 pages just to "how-to" run a Troop Summer Camp! Counting all the photographs and blank pages labeled "Notes," how many pages is the entire current Scoutmaster Handbook? If summer camp were a bad thing or were not meeting the needs of units, they would die away. Close your eyes, scrunch up your forehead real hard, and try to imagine a Wood Badge program devoted to the Patrol Method rather than Leadership Development. If the BSA promoted William Hillcourt's BSA Patrol Method as it did before the 1972 Scouting massacre, then ALL "units" would see the Patrol Method as its most basic Scouting "need." Kudu

jblake47 writes: Hmm, it sounds as if factory scouting is a negative thing... I have worked in manufacturing/factory over the years and if one wishes to produce a consistant program there must be a consistent process. To open it up for major variations will produce major variations in the quality of the end product. That is a keeper! Isn't the end product of valid citizen leaders the whole purpose of scouting? No, and that is where I disagree with most American Scouters: I believe that Real Scouting is primarily a GAME. Try to imagine that! The problem with the "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" bogus Baden-Powell quote is that it places far too much emphasis on what you call the "end product" of Scouting. This in turn inevitably leads to an emphasis on the bean-counter (Advancement, Leadership Development, and Uniform) Methods, always at the expense of Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" or William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method." I think merit badge factory summer camps, supplemented with a valid troop experience for the week produces the best program. Most Summer Camps are exactly that: a Merit Badge Factory with Troop experience. Troop experience is the Troop Method. The Game of Scouting is a game played by Patrols. The Game of Baseball is far more efficient if you skip all that hitting the ball with the bat stuff and get the teams together to run around the bases. The Game of Football is far more efficient if you skip all that bumping into each other stuff and get the teams together to run the length of the football field. The Game of Scouting is far more efficient if you skip all that Patrol cooking stuff and get the Patrols together to run to catered cooking and Factory T-2-1 & Merit Badge classes on the "Trail to Eagle." Likewise as an industrialist you must realize that if "valid citizen leaders is the whole purpose of Scouting," then certainly ALL of the Methods are up for grabs, not just the Patrol Method! Other "Methods of Scouting" have been discarded in the past including the First Method of Scouting, "The Scout Way (1. A Game, NOT a Science)". Since that bit the dust in 1972, why don't we act like factory owners and apply science to the "consistent process" of Scouting? Try sitting the Scouts down for classes in citizenship with an objective test of the so-called "Aims of Scouting." Then apply the same objective test to Scouts who waste their time outdoors in Patrols (objectivity was the whole purpose of the Personal Growth Method introduced in 1972). Using this, the ultimate bean-counter Method as it was intended to be used, the Official BSA test of a Scout's Personal Development in meeting the "Citizenship Aim" was The boy knows something of his heritage as an American and is proud of it. He understands to some degree American social, economic, and governmental systems. He understands and can use skills of leadership to lead a group to a successful outcome. He demonstrates concern for and interest in others. He has some knowledge of cultures and social groups other than his own and is able to understand something of what it is like to belong to another such group. He is aware of community organizations and what they do. He understands the ethnic and social situation in his neighborhood. He contributes in some way to the improvement of the environment in which he lives. He wisely uses property belonging to himself and others. He explores vocational and hobby possibilities for himself. The Official BSA objective tests for the other two "Aims of Scouting" can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/6th.htm If this "Purpose of Scouting" thing is more important than Scouting as a mere Game played in Patrols, then why not get more scientific, move the whole thing into classrooms, and just skip all the mosquitoes? Kudu

Lisabob writes: We talked about this the other night and agreed that we would promote our own camp first and foremost, but that if there are new scouts who simply aren't going to go to camp with us then we'll encourage them to at least do this. Congratulations Lisabob on deciding to run your own Troop Summer Camp (if I understand your decision correctly). T-2-1 programs are just a subset of Merit Badge Factory Summer Camp which in turn (if you think about it objectively) is really just a subset of Eagle Factory Scouting. The basic idea behind Factory Scouting is to gut the Patrol Method to make Advancement toward Eagle more efficient. "Trail to Eagle" says it all. Even if your Troop Summer Camp is only a "long weekend," you at least have the opportunity to introduce your new Scouts to real Scouting which is based on the Patrol Method. At a bare minimum this would include 1) Patrols Significantly Separated: at least 100 yards is the ideal; 2) Patrol Cooking: ALL meals cooked in the Scouts' permanent Patrols; and 3) Tenderfoot Instruction: ALL Tenderfoot instruction, testing, and (ideally) sign-offs done by the (older Scout) Patrol Leader of their own permanent Patrol (rather than the Troop Method Troop Guide, Troop Instructor, or adult). Troop Summer Camp is also a rare opportunity to do some real Scouting for the older Scouts who are not Patrol Leaders. Consider a scaled-down version of Bob Geier's "Non-Traditional Summer Camp" (actually in "Traditional Scouting" this IS Traditional Summer Camp): http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm You may discover that your Scouts prefer real Scouting to Factory Scouting and if you allow the PLC to make these kind of decisions, they may vote to expand your Troop Summer Camp experiment into next year's week-long Summer Camp. For those who prefer adult-dominated, school schedule Summer Camps, the following is a pretty cool alternate to typical Council adult-dominated, school schedule Factory Summer Camps: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/trooprun.htm Kudu

Burma Shave writes: So, when the forward pass is used in football today, the inventors of football would be equally saddened. Fuzzy, In the BSA version of the game the referees are the only eligible receivers. This places the referee in the best position to judge the pass. Upon completion, the referee judges the "Football Spirit" of the player who threw it. If the referee decides that this player exemplifies the "Ideals of Football," he signs off on the pass and the player must then make an appointment for his Board of Review. The player is expected to show up for his Board of Review in a clean uniform, be able to recite the Ideals of Football, and answer about 20 minutes of questions. Some people are saddened by how long it takes to finish a game under the new rules. They lament how much football changed after activist judges ruled that Congress had granted the BSA a monopoly on football, but almost everyone agrees that the BSA has been better than the NFL at keeping the "wrong kind of people" out of the game. Under the BSA, the porpoise of football is not winning the game but teaching "Leadership Development!" To this end team members' training and practice is centered around an indoor corporate leadership skills course called "BSA Leather Badge in the 21st Century." Under the new Leadership Development rules, in order to "Advance," a team member must serve in a "Position of Responsibility" as Quarterback. The porpoise is not to have the most qualified person serve as Quarterback, but to give every team member a chance to experience "Leadership." The game is very well documented in the BSA's Football Handbook of more than 100 pages (triple-spaced with many illustrations and blank pages labeled "Notes"). Written by the same team of home-schooled religious fundamentalists that wrote the Scoutmaster's Handbook, the publication rises to the BSA's very highest standards of scholarship, historical accuracy, and commonsense. I get all weepy whenever I view my very favorite page, the one with the BSA's artist's rendition of the inventor of the forward pass, Knute Rockne, in his Miami Dolphins uniform. Under his portrait is what the BSA cites as Knute's most famous phrase: "Football is a Game with a Porpoise" Kudu

You can start with the Baden-Powell quote on page 20 of the current Scoutmaster Handbook: "The patrol method is not a way to operate a Boy Scout troop, it is the only way." The current BSA Scoutmaster Handbook is incorrect. Baden-Powell did not use the "Patrol Method," he used the "Patrol System." All quotation sources that cite Baden-Powell using the term "Patrol Method" are wrong. For instance: The object of the patrol method is not so much having the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy. "Having the Scoutmaster trouble," eh? If we use the Baden-Powell Patrol System, then any Troop in which the Scoutmaster appoints adults and/or any Scouts other than Patrol Leaders to "sign off" on requirements is "having the Scoutmaster trouble." If we use the Baden-Powell Patrol System, then any Scout who has been signed off by his Patrol Leader only to have his Patrol Leader over-ruled by the Scoutmaster in a so-called "Adult Association Method" Scoutmaster Conference is "having the Scoutmaster trouble." If we use the Baden-Powell Patrol System, then any Scout who is denied advancement as a result of the Scoutmaster using "Scout Spirit" against him is "having the Scoutmaster trouble." So, Jblake47, the BSA "Patrol Method" is ALEADY a MAJOR compromise between Baden-Powell's far-too-radical-for-most-American-Scouters "Patrol System" and the common adult tendency to disenfranchise Patrol Leaders by using the "non-fragmented" Troop Method that you are witnessing! Therefore the "Patrol Method" is viewed by most Americans as more "practical" than Baden-Powell's "Patrol System." But to get first-class results from THIS system you have to give the boy leaders REAL free-handed responsibility--if you only give partial responsibility you will only get partial results. The main object is not so much saving the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy, since this is the very best of all means for developing character. "Having the Scoutmaster trouble" is only ONE of the problems Americans would face if we actually used the Baden-Powell Patrol System. We would also be having the: TROOP Committee trouble (Boards of Review which further undermine the Patrol Leader's authority), TROOP "New Scout Patrol" trouble and the TROOP Guide trouble (in which the complete usurpation of a Patrol Leader's authority over Tenderfoot through First Class advancement is institutionalized), TROOP Instructors trouble (the Patrol Leader should be the Patrol's instructor!) TROOP "Leadership Development Method" trouble (in which the position of Patrol Leader is viewed more as a six month advancement requirement opportunity to teach "leadership" rather than THE appointed office of THE most-qualified natural boy leader) TROOP Junior Leader Training trouble (JLT is designed to teach corporate leadership skills to all of the TROOP "Junior Leaders," as opposed to "Patrol Leader Training" which teaches skills that are useful only to the Patrol Leader and his Assistant) TROOP elections trouble (in which the most qualified Patrol Leader can be replaced by the most popular boy) TROOP SPL & ASPL trouble (in which the SPL "runs the TROOP" rather than serving at the pleasure of the Patrol Leaders) TROOP Quartermaster trouble (the fact that the patch does not read "Patrol Quartermaster" SCREAMS "Troop Method") TROOP monthly camping trouble (in which the Patrols are allowed to camp closer than 300' apart) TROOP summer camp "first year Scout program" trouble (designed to further usurp the Patrol Leaders' authority over advancement) and TROOP summer camp central dining trouble (in which the TROOP eats catered meals together to make the factory Merit Badge "Advancement Method" more "efficient" than is usual with Patrol cooking); So Jblake47, you see? Those who view the Patrol Method as "a threat to the troop as a whole" don't know how lucky they are. Try to imagine how unhappy they would be if the BSA used the Baden-Powell Patrol System! Kudu

Consider yourself lucky! Most BSA summer camps sacrifice the Patrol Method to the Advancement Method and the "Troop Method." For a discussion of "Do It Yourself" summer camps, see The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm Kudu

Chippewa_Dan writes: My opinion is that patrols should be physically separated. Even if it is only by 25 feet or so. Baden-Powell said that the Patrols should be AT LEAST 300 feet apart, which makes him 12 times more radical than you! "This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit." See The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/traditional/100_yards.htm We should note that B-P was writing about the "Patrol System" in which appointed Patrol Leaders have more responsibility than they do in the BSA's "Patrol Method." "But to get first-class results from this system you have to give the boy leaders real free-handed responsibility-if you only give partial responsibility you will only get partial results." Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: So, is First Tarrant the only BPSA group in the US or are there more? Is there a BPSA-USA organization like national in Irving? No amount of Googling has turned anything up. I am familiar with the BPSA-USA's program, but I do not speak for the association. You could call their toll-free number (866-339-0846) and see if they want to reveal their numbers and Internet polices :-) Eamonn writes: is there a reason why the BPSA-USA is not recognized by the World Federation of Independent Scouts (WFIS)? The North American branch of the World Federation of Independent Scouts (WFIS-NA) is based in Canada. They wanted American member associations to observe the same restrictions imposed upon BPSA-Canada by the Canadian courts after Scouts Canada's successful litigation against the competition. BPSA-Canada was forced to 1) cease using the term "Scouts" and 2) disband as a national organization (independent provincial associations were ruled OK). It was therefore WFIS-NA policy that in order to avoid a similar confrontation with the BSA, only American state-based associations that did not use the term "Scouts" would be recognized by the WFIS-NA. As I understand it, BPSA-USA would not agree to those terms. Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: Back in April 2005, you said that BPSA-USA was set to launch in the US. Is the First Tarrant group out of Fort Worth still the only BPSA group in the US? A google search didn't turn up anything other than the First Tarrant group. The printed materials, uniforms, etc, were not ready until about a year later. By then the BPSA-USA had decided that the quiet organization of interested congregations was the way to go. So the First Tarrant Group remains the only Internet lightning rod Those who want to contact them to ask questions or to inquire about getting involved or starting a Group can call their toll free number, 866-339-0846. Kudu

Beavah writes: Who's running a good program? What should be done with Troop 1? With Troop 2? Your wording is open-ended, so let me approach the idea of a "good program" from a completely different perspective: What feedback would I, as a Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) Commissioner, give Troop 2 if they decided to leave the BSA and join the BPSA-USA? This moves the discussion away from Kohlberg's Pre-Conventional "I obey the BSA's worst impulses because 'A Scout is obedient'," and moves it closer to the true "Universal Principles" of Scouting at maybe the "5. Social Contract: The rules are flexible, together we do whats best for the general welfare" level which is expressed by the BPSA-USA's principle of "Group Autonomy." Beavah writes: SM and ASMs not usually trained. (Speaking to Troop 2): Critics will be quick to point out to you that a new, all-volunteer Scouting association will be similar to those in other countries where units depend on Commissioners and regional (or national) Wood Beads courses to learn how the program is supposed to work. Make jokes privately about WB and knot-ridden chests. "Wood Beads" in your new association is not the business management leadership course that you may have already taken where you work. It is a practical course that uses practice in Baden-Powell's Patrol System to teach some outdoor skills and indoor Scouting theory. As for jokes about BSA Scouters' knot-ridden chests, they are jokingly referred to by Scouters in the UK, Australia, and Canada as "Christmas trees." Such humor is even popular at the BSA's national headquarters in Irving Texas, but it is not necessarily so private. I once spent a week with the BSA's national Director of Training for the Boy Scout Division. It was his opinion that excessive patches on adults are unseemly and he recommended that Scouters wear only the absolute minimum (such as Council, unit number, and leadership position). On at least two occasions during the week he joked about the number of Scouters who telephone him at National Headquarters to ask if there is a knot that they can wear for having taken Wood Badge. He said his standard reply is, "As a matter of fact there are TWO "knots" for Wood Badge!" When the salivating Scouters express their sheer glee and ask for the details, the Senior BSA Executive replies, "Yes, there is a "knot" on both ends of the leather thong of the Wood Badge. They hold your beads on!" No First Class First Year program. Most boys don't make First Class until 8th grade. You can expect to continue this tradition in Scouting programs based on Baden-Powell. A boy is not formally accepted into a Scout Troop until he earns Tenderfoot, so the requirements for this "Award" are limited to the few traditional ones that were written by B-P himself. The Patrol Leader is expected to handle the Tenderfoot candidate's progress as quickly as possible. As B-P indicated, a boy is not really a full Scout until he earns First Class but some of the Traditional requirements (such as signalling, retesting, and the First Class Journey) are much more difficult than those in the BSA program so there should be no rush to speed through them. Old-timers in the BSA program will find that old photographs of their own boyhood Patrols probably show mostly 2nd Class badges until 8th grade as well. Vertical, not age-based patrols. No New Scout Patrol. This is the ideal in a Baden-Powell Scouting Troop as well. With some notable exceptions older Scouts make better leaders than 6th or 7th grade boys, and larger Patrol members can help keep discipline with the younger Scouts. Patrol Leaders are responsible for Tenderfoot through First Class training, and therefore they are chosen by the Scoutmaster for their proven sense of responsibility and ability to lead (rather than making Patrols a "lesson in democracy" by allowing the Patrol members to learn about the downsides of "popularity contests" by electing bad leaders and suffering the consequences). Baden-Powell did not require leadership for "advancement," so there is no pressure to force the best boy-leaders to abandon their Patrol Leader positions to make way for less talented leaders. No Troop Guide. By definition, a "Troop Guide" is an example of what I call the "Troop Method" rather than "Patrol Method." In B-P's Patrol System, the Patrol Leader is the Patrol's "guide." If he is not up to the task then the Scoutmaster should replace him. ASPL elected by PLC; ASPL succeeds to SPL after 6 months. This appears to be a modification of William Hillcourt's BSA Patrol Method in which the SPL is appointed by the PLC. This was replaced in 1972 by the "Troop Method" in which the entire Troop votes for the SPL and he "runs the Troop." There are no ASPLs in a Baden-Powell Troop because the Patrol Leaders rather than the SPL (and his appointed assistants) run the Troop. Baden-Powell wrote that a Scoutmaster "MAY" appoint a Troop Leader (SPL) with the help of the Court of Honor (PLC) because in B-P's Patrol System a Troop is a loose federation of Patrols that can function perfectly well without an SPL, thank you very much. Given Baden-Powell's wording your PLC should continue to appoint the SPL (technically the SPL-in-training) if that works for you, but I would advise against ASPLs. If you choose to ignore Baden-Powell's advice to limit a Troop to 32 Scouts (because B-P himself could only work with 16 Scouts and he figured that most Scouters where twice as capable as him), the PLC can always appoint additional SPLs as the Patrol Leaders deem necessary to do specific jobs for them, but the Scoutmaster should recognize that this is may be a danger sign that the Troop is creeping toward the Troop Method. Troop did not use BSA JLT/NYLT. Good riddance! It is interesting to note that traditional WOSM Troops around the world who continue to use Baden-Powell's Scouting methods rather than pop youth culture or pop corporate culture modernizations, often use the Danish William Hillcourt's American PATROL LEADER TRAINING course!. Patrol Leader Training differs from "Junior Leader Training" in that it trains Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders, rather than being designed to teach the Troop Librarian how to be a one minute manager. Troop adds LNT requirements to T-2-1. You will be delighted to find that LNT requirements have already been added to the Baden-Powell all outdoor requirements that have an impact on the environment. Troops are expected to add LNT practices to all activities as local conditions make necessary. For all I know, they may tweak other advancement requirements. Baden-Powell Scouting is a game that plays Baden-Powell's version of the game with the exception of advances in safety, light-weight equipment, and environmental concerns (LNT). Tweaking falls under the BPSA-USA's policy of "Group Autonomy," but if you tend to tweak toward Parlour Scouting then you might be happier in the BSA where the most demanding Scoutcraft requirements have already been "tweaked" out of the program by people like you :-) Older scouts, non-registered parents, and SM might sit on T-2-1 BOR, but not S-L-E. ASMs do SM conferences for T-2-1, usually with PL for all but last bit. There have never been any Troop Method adult-judgement requirements such as Scout Spirit, BOR, and SM Conferences in Baden-Powell Scouting. The Patrol Leader judges Tenderfoot through First Class competencies (which are all training in Scoutcraft). The Scoutmaster is expected to keep his eyes open and judge the quality of this Scoutcraft training in every Patrol for himself and work with his appointed Patrol Leaders as necessary. Proficiency Badge counselors judge the specific proficiencies of older Scouts. If you don't trust the theory that Scouting is a game that uses the VERY indirect method of training in Scoutcraft to teach citizenship, and if you want to second-guess Baden-Powell and block the recognition of a Scout's Scoutcraft skills because you don't approve of the attitude with which he wears his Scout Socks, then stick with the BSA :-/ Parents are forbidden from counseling MB's for their own son, and no boy can get more than 3 MB's from the same adult. No MB's offered during meetings. No MB-Fairs. Amen. Some summer camp badges not allowed. In Baden-Powell Scouting summer camp is about the Patrols setting up their own Patrol sites, Patrol cooking (of course), and planning outdoor adventures. Summer camp is mostly planned by the PLC and should not aspire to Troop Method Merit Badge factories. BOR's average 30-60 minutes, and do ask boys knowledge/skill questions that many consider retesting. Retesting of the ALL of the previous Award (rank) skills is a Second and First Class requirement in Baden-Powell Scouting. The Patrol Leader customarily waves this requirement for Scouts who help him teach these skills to the younger Patrol Members. Current proficiency is also required for all Proficiency Badges. For instance if a Scout fails to renew his first aid certification, he is no longer allowed to wear a first aid Proficiency Badge (Proficiency Badges are far fewer in number and all Badges are worn on the Uniform, not on a "Merit Badge Sash"). Troop doesn't use BSA POR's like bugler, but does have its own unapproved POR's like Webmaster. Baden-Powell did not require "PORs" for Progressive Training in Scoutcraft ("Advancement"), so this kind of stuff is besides the point. Troop plays Lasertag, Jolly good show! What kind of Scouting association would not encourage Lasertag, a proven joy to boys? Such games are consistent with Baden-Powell's "Scouting Games" from the very beginning of Scouting! and mostly ignores G2SS in favor of doing their own thing. The G2SS is not written by insurance experts in risk assessment as is commonly assumed, nor by safety experts in their fields of expertise. The BSA's G2SS is written by BSA lawyers to protect the BSA's assets against seizure in worst-case scenarios (such as pioneering projects that are, gasp!, more than six feet off the ground!). Safety standards in Baden-Powell Scouting reflect the standards of Proficiency Badge requirements written by appropriate partner-associations such as the NRA, Red Cross, United States Canoe Association, etc, all of which are subject to the policies of the Troop's insurance carrier. Troop avoids district and council events. Baden-Powell held in disdain the BSA public park "Camporees" which were invented by James West. B-P called them "Parlour Scouting!" No popcorn sales. Baden-Powell Scouting has no local air-conditioned offices full of paid professional that need to be supported by popcorn sales. If you constantly need a local support staff, then the BSA is the better option. CO supports the program financially, so scouts do not pay their own way. As your Commissioner, PLEASE include me in your next free Troop Campout in England or Hawaii! Troop wears uniform shirt only for public events, selects their own pants, This is called a "Class C" Uniform in Baden-Powell Scouting. The pants must be dark blue. Troop-made activity shirts must be the same color as the official tan "Class A" uniform shirt. and has unofficial awards and patches. A Baden-Powell Scout continues to wear most of his previous Awards, including the Tenderfoot and First Class badges. Scout level Proficiency Badges are eventually replaced with the equivalent Senior Scout Proficiency Badge. So there is not a lot of room for unofficial patches. Kudu

jkhny writes: Most companies FIRE people for far less...... The difference between the BSA and "most companies" is that most companies are subject to the corrective forces of the marketplace. If you want to change Scouting then work toward establishing alternatives to the BSA. Kudu

nldscout writes: Looks like old news on website. I guess nothing much happening with them. As I understand it the BSA's usual strategy is to delay as long as possible. Often the children excluded from the BSA will age-out and head off to college, and their parents will loose interest in opposition to the BSA. Given the massive "fire power" of the BSA it should not be surprising that the YouthScout's motion to force the Trademark office to make a ruling has been delayed. However Greg Wrenn does update his Website with every new legal event. Kudu

A bit of clarification on the fleur-de-lis (FdL). The fleur-de-lis in and of itself cannot be copyrighted as it is a very generic emblem that has been in use for thousands of years Actually a legal firm contracted by the BSA sends out a threatening cease and desist form letter to American youth organizations that use the generic, non-BSA fleur-de-lis emblem. For those who are interested in legal opposition to the BSA's controversial trademark claims, see the "Youthscouts" legal news page: http://youthscouts.org/news.html Kudu

As I corresponded this week with a friend in Iraq, he told me a secret. "The Iraqi Scouts continue to march and are quietly successful." Hundreds of thousands of young Iraqis have ties to World Scouting. They practice the timeless virtue of being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent -- the Scout Law. The 12 law, string of single words version of Scout Law is a BSA product and not universal to Scouting. I wonder what their program looks like beyond the spin of the "Charles Group" and the Washington Times. Kudu

Eamonn, We have a similar disruptive Scout in our Troop. He simply can't help but point out the humor in every situation. He does this not only in Scouts but school as well. Consequently he spends a lot of time in after-school detention. I discovered at summer camp that he is also a talented writer and gifted at expressing serious ideas in writing. So, I talked him into channeling his talent into taking Public Speaking Merit Badge with me. I warned him that the BSA considers "A Scout is Cheerful" to be very serious business because they have a Scout Spirit requirement for every rank. Obviously that means that if he doesn't make me and the entire Troop howl with laughter while fulfilling his Public Speaking Merit Badge talk and speech requirements, not only will he not earn the Merit Badge but he will never pass a "Scout Spirit" requirement again for the rest of his life! No Pressure. He is the Patrol Leader of The Dragons, our Troop's class clown Patrol. Three of his Dragon buddies also spend time in detention after school for their inappropriate humor. That made the competition fierce but he was able to win his Patrol's popularity contest and become Patrol Leader. Humor is an important aspect of Leadership Development. Just ask John Kerry. If you can't tell a joke correctly you end up in Iraq. Kudu