Kudu

packsaddle writes: I tend to stand right alongside Kudu on this...although 'militant Universalist' seems to be an oxymoron. Yeah, I couldn't find an emoticon for the image of a kindly grey-haired octogenarian driven to suicide-bombing to assert her belief that a just and loving God would never condemn a human being to eternal damnation :-/ I differ with Kudu in that fundamentalism also implies an element of absolutism that is absent from BSA (as described by Lisabob) in practice. The DRP, given that many units and members ignore it, is therefore a rather hollow statement - words more than substance - and this makes BSA less of a fundamentalist organization than it is an organization that wants to please (at cost to a six-year-old) some fundamentalists. And please them they do with the fundamentalist joining requirement: absolutism is the "advocacy of a rule by absolute standards or principles" or "an absolute standard or principle." The rule that you absolutely must sign the Declaration of Religious PRINCIPLE sounds a whole lot like an absolute rule or PRINCIPLE to me, and (just in case Hunt missed it) religious fundamentalism is "a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLEs," so the BSA as a MOVEMENT that stresses the STRICT adherence to signing the Declaration of RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLE, sounds a whole lot like religious fundamentalism to me. But I agree: after you meet the BSA's religious fundamentalist joining requirement then anything goes in your local unit as long as your little atheists do not start issuing their own press releases :-) However, the fact that BSA has not and is not likely to increase the religious program elements can similarly be interpreted as BSA's recognition of a likelihood for many of us who ignore the DRP, to take further action and vote with our feet. Religious fundamentalists should assume that religious moderates who are willing to sign the DRP will in the end reason themselves into accepting almost anything that is packaged well. I have noted that BSA does have a cowardly element to its character. They could disprove that too, by substantially adding religious elements to the program. To quote W, "Bring it on!" Ugh, religious zealots willing to go to court to turn their backs in public on six-year-olds may be many things, but cowardly is not one of them; and from George W. Bush we should learn that "Bring it on!" bravado can motivate religious fundamentalists into action :-/ Kudu

Beavah writes: Yah, that was quite a thread hijack there, eh? Beavah, tis you enya fella' ruffians that hijacked the thread, eh? OldGreyEagle quoted all of the references to Scout Spirit that tell the Scout that "unlike most requirements for Scout ranks that can be measured by other people, how well you live the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your life, is something for you to judge," and then he asked how then can a Scoutmaster decline to sign off a scout on Scout Spirit? Everyone danced and sang, "YES!! YES!! We must sit in judgement of a Scout's Spirit!!!!!! If we don't the Advancement Method is meaningless, eh????" OldGreyEagle re-framed his question and asked, "A scout comes to you with the quotes I initially posted, he wants to know why the book says one thing about Scout Spirit and the Troop does something completely different. What do you tell him?" Everyone danced and sang, "YES!! YES!! We must sit in judgement of a Scout's Spirit!!!!!! Judge it this way, or judge it that way, but if judging him doesn't work then throw the hooligan out!!!!!!!!" OGE, the answer to your question is very simple: the Scout's Troop uses the "Adult Association" and "Advancement" Methods (the adult-led Troop Method) rather than B-P's "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft" within the Patrol System where a Scout is measured by the Patrol Leader ONLY for his mastery of Scoutcraft, not for the quality of his Spirit. "The secret of getting good results in character and reliability in a boy is to expect much of him and to trust him with responsibility. But I do not say teach him to swim by throwing him into deep water and expecting him to be able to make his way safely. You must, as a first step, give him confidence in his own powers by helping him to develop those powers, by training him in fact, and by showing him through your own example, how to swim" Baden-Powell, Headquarters Gazette, May 1915, emphasis added). Kudu

I propose that the BP Patrol System requires as talented of a SM as the BSA system for equal results... If the adult doesnt know how to achieve that in one program, he wont get it in the other. On that we agree. I will further state that a SM in the BSA program can do just as well in the BP program and visa-versa because it doesnt matter how the program is set up, if the SM understands the goals, he/she will get about the same performance because the minor differences of program dont have much effect on the basic philosophy of a boy learning from his experiences of independent thinking and moral choices made during scouting activities. If it doesn't matter how the program is set up then you must agree that the BSA's Eight Methods of Scouting are of no real importance, but the Adult Association Method, which strips the Patrol Leader of his authority over Tenderfoot through First Class advancement and sets up adults as both moral and technical judges of a Scout's Advancement is not, as you say, a "minor" difference. For instance, when GernBlansten proposed that we just chalk up scout spirit as an ideal to be reached, as defined by the scout and coached by the leadership, you derided this Baden-Powell idea (Scouting as education not instruction) as "the Lord of the Flies method" and said "I think when we get to the point that adults don't judge the scout's behavior, there is no reason for a SM anymore". In Baden-Powell's game, the "reason for a SM" is as an ELDER BROTHER who must influence the younger brother only through the sheer encouragement of his own good example, he is NOT the BSA PARENT figure who judges the Scout's behavior by taking Advancement away from the Patrol Leaders and holding it hostage to his judgement. So, that being said, an acceptable method to boost fellow scouters seeking leadership guidance is quoting from successful leaders. Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill qualify as successful leaders. However the author looses integrity when the dialog is interlace with insults, rants and negative comments toward other people or other programs. It goes without saying a negative style of discussion doesnt live of up to any definition of the Scout Law and Oath of any Scouting program of which Im familiar.... Hit the "send" button on that classic example of the BSA "Adult Association Method" a little too quickly there, Barry? "SCOUTING IS A GAME for boys, under the leadership of boys, in which elder brothers can give their younger brothers healthy environment and encourage them to healthy activities such as will help them to develop CITIZENSHIP" (Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership, emphasis in the original). Kudu

Gonzo1 writes: Kudu, I thought I had lengthy posts. OK, I have long admired Ed Mori's and Brent Allen's ability to get their message across in only 3-6 sentences, so I am going to try to follow their example for a while. This is not personal, just my thoughts, BSA is what is is today and no matter how much either of us would like to change it to something it was, it won't happen. John-in-KC proposed a theoretical discussion in the Issues/Politics forum that addresses the question "Does the program, in your evaluation, have sufficient rigor, or has it been watered down?" My answer is that the problem with modern BSA Scouting is that any boy can earn Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back, so it is a simple matter to compare that to the rigor of the program of Scouting's inventor, Baden-Powell, which was based on a required series of adult-free expeditions of increasing difficulty. Sure, it would be nice if we could send our kids on a 15 mile hike, overnight without any adult supervision, but that won't happen today. When I was 7 or 8 years old, I would be on my bike a mile or so from home, at 7 years old. Not gonna happen today. Too many creeps out there. This practice of keeping children away from nature because of all the creeps out there is addressed in Richard Louv's book Last Child in the Woods: Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder. If you aspire to the First Class Journey as B-P's (and at one time the BSA's) true test of a First Class Scout but wish to address the commonly-held perception that nature is simply too dangerous for children, you might design a compromise similar to BPSA-USA's in which a group of Scouters "shadows" the Scouts at an appropriate distance but with whom the Scouts may not interact in any way except in an emergency. I suppose there is that First Tarrant thing in Texas for you, I don't know. At least one other American national Scouting association and a number of unaffiliated single Troops (including an all-girl unit) use the same standard program as designed by Baden-Powell. Kudu

Hunt writes: The phrase "turn our backs on a six-year-old" is nicely turned, and certainly implies something only a heartless person would do. But it's the kind of rhetorical device that is designed to avoid focusing on the basic question of whether it is reasonable for a religious organization to restrict its membership to religious people. Six-year-old Mark Welsh is not a "rhetorical device," he is a human being with a heart that the BSA sought to capture in a public classroom and then break. The rhetorical device here is your attempt to shift the discussion away from the true meaning and practice of the BSA's "Religious Principle." While it's too bad that some six-year-olds will have parents who choose to teach them that religion is a fairy tale, with the result that those kids will not be able to join the religious organization, that is a decision the parents have the right to make. The more "fairy tale" a religion is, the more vicious its practitioners act toward children who reject the supernatural. The reason that the parents of these children are forced to make such a decision about Scouting is because the state established a religious organization with a monopoly on Scouting. It seems to me that if BSA dropped the religious requirement for membership, but increased religious program elements, those same parents would either continue to keep their kids out, or would be complaining about the religious program elements. Apples and oranges: the DRP "religious requirement" for membership is religious fundamentalism, the strict and literal forced submission to a set of basic religious principles; whereas advancement that includes religious book learning is what Baden-Powell defines as "instruction," the opposite of Scouting. Note that in the "Final Judgement" of Matthew 25, Buddhists and other atheist Boy Scouts who practice B-P's "Practical Christianity" (Service to Others) would fare pretty well: http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Matthew+25 "By 'character' is meant a spirit of manly self-reliance and of unselfishness -- something of the practical Christianity which (although they are Buddhists in theory) distinguishes the Burmese in their daily life" (Baden-Powell, Scouting for Boys). Kudu

BrentAllen writes: Appoint?? Who is doing the "appointing?" I thought PL's were supposed to be elected by the boys in the Patrol. Maybe the BSA is closer to B-P's ideas than some here think.... Brent, In Baden-Powell's Patrol System the Scoutmaster appoints the boy with the best natural leadership skills, as was the practice in his military patrols upon which Boy Scouting is modeled. This is also true of leadership development in private industry upon which BSA Wood Badge is now modeled. Patrol elections are a BSA invention dating back to the period before the BSA used the "Patrol Method," when the Handbook for Scout Masters advised "Scout Masters" to keep their Patrol Leaders completely powerless and PLs had only a symbolic "team captain" function. BSA elections have evolved into Patrols as "Leadership Development" mills where the Scoutmaster trains the most popular boys how to be "leaders." Patrol elections may be more "democratic" but Patrol Leaders in B-P's Patrol System have more actual power without Senior Patrol Leaders and the "Adult Association" Method with its Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, Scout Spirit requirements, and other forms of second-guessing elected boy-leadership. "To get first-class results from the Patrol system you have to give the leader a real free-handed responsibility. If you only give partial responsibility you will only get partial results" (Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership, WB edition, 1944). Kudu

SueM, Start by telling this problem Scout the truth: a BSA Troop is NOT "boy-led," it is adult-led. BSA adults do not believe in B-P's Patrol System, so they took all the evaluation powers away from the Patrol Leaders and gave them to themselves. BSA leaders call their Patrol Leader powers "Adult Association." Simply put: (B-P's Patrol System) minus (Adult Association) = BSA Patrol Method. "One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction" (Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918). Kudu

What is missing from every discussion of BSA Advancement is an objective standard by which "Advancement Rigor" can be measured. The basic idea behind modern BSA Scouting is that ANY boy can add Eagle to his business resume without EVER walking into the woods with a pack on his back! The international movement to reverse this trend and to return Advancement Rigor to Scouting began in 1970 and is called "Traditional Scouting." To understand just how far the basic Scouting program has been watered down, it is useful to compare it to Scouting associations that still use Baden-Powell's Traditional Advancement standards (called "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft"). You can usually tell at a glance if a Scouting association meets these Traditional standards by simply looking for the three key required "Scout Journeys," detailed below. First Class Scout means the boy has reached the minimum level of self knowledge to survive on a basic level for a simple campout. That statement says it all! At one time, the BSA's standard for a "First Class Scout" was similar to that of Baden-Powell's. Simply put, A First Class Scout has reached a mastery of Scoutcraft skills sufficient to plan and undertake a significant back-woods expedition without adults. These skills were once tested in the BSA's version of B-P's "First Class Journey": "Make a round trip alone (or with another Scout) to a point at least seven miles away (fourteen miles in all), going on foot, or rowing a boat, and write a satisfactory account of the trip and the things observed." This is the true real-world "test" of a First Class Scout, not some sign-off checklist or indoor Scoutmaster Conference and Board of Review. If I were revamping the requirements, I would consider having two groups of non-Eagle-required Merit Badges, "Scout Skills," and "General," Baden-Powell's "Proficiency Badges" are different from "Merit Badges" in a couple of important ways: Proficiency Badges are divided into two groups, "Scoutcraft" and "Public Service." Scoutcraft badges are worn on the right arm and represent the skills through which you encounter the "Religion of the Woods." Public Service badges (such as first aid, lifeguard) are worn on the left arm and represent the skills used to practice "Practical Christianity." Proficiency Badges are not geared toward employment. Too often once the requirements are met it means the end of the story. That's a major disservice to our boys. Proficiency Badges are based on the idea of "current proficiency." For instance, to wear the first aid badge on your left arm, your certification with an outside agency must be kept current. As a Scout gets older, he earns the senior-level (Life & Eagle) Proficiency Badges which are square-shaped. They replace the round, Scout-level Proficiency Badges earned earlier. For instance, the Scout "First Aid" badge is replaced by the Senior Scout "Ambulance Badge." Thus, a Scout's badges (including most of his previous awards such as Tenderfoot, First Class, etc) all fit on a short-sleeved shirt. Scout uniforms are worn outdoors so that in the field you can tell at a glance in what skills and at what level a Scout is currently proficient. Now, I understand there is need for change: - The Internet has replaced signal flags. WHAT ABOUT SURVIVAL MIRRORS? - Suntans are no longer encouraged. - Browse beds are discouraged. - First aid techniques have improved. In Traditional Scouting, a national program may add requirements but not take them away. So the basic Scouting skills remain and are changed only for reasons of 1) Health & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns (Leave No Trace), 3) Lightweight Materials, and 4) Local Weather and Native Cultures. So in the above list, suntans are discouraged, browse beds are eliminated, first aid techniques are updated, signal requirements are preserved, and a Scout who takes the Morse code signalling option can communicate with a survival mirror. It should be noted that the "practical application" of signalling requirements are not why they are included in a rigorous Scouting program. The telephone was invented before Scouting, so signaling skills that do not require technology (Morse code, semaphore, and, in the BSA, both Indian and deaf sign languages) were important not so much for their practical applications, but to teach a Scout observation, interpretation, and how to communicate in codes (which, as Ernest Seton, Dan Beard, and Baden-Powell noted, fascinate most boys). These signal requirements are closely related to the observation (Kim's game), tracking, and stalking skills missing from BSA Scouting. HOW MANY hikes...? (All Traditional Scouting advancement hikes are undertaken with NO adults) Second Class: Go on an eight-mile daytime Journey (minimum) with at least three other Scouts. - Your Patrol Leader will set your route, and a specific objective will be given. - Make an oral report from notes to your Patrol Leader immediately upon your return. - Your Scoutmaster must know your hiking route, and must approve your plan in advance. - If additional Scouts are taking the test, each will report independently. First Class: The First Class Journey. Go on foot, with three other Scouts, on a 24-hour journey of at least 15 miles. - Make all the necessary advance preparations, and organize the packing of food and gear. - In the course of the journey, you must cook your own meals, at least one of which must include meat or a protein substitute. - Find a campsite and camp for the night. - You must carry out any instructions given by the examiner as to things to be observed on route. - Make a log of your journey sufficient to show you have carried out those instructions, and submit it within one week of your return. Bushman's Cord (Life Scout) Venturer Badge (required) 1) Complete an adventure journey as a member of a Patrol in which you shall play a leading part. - The journey, which may be short in length, must include at least 5 incidents such as rescues from fire or heights, compass work, Signalling over distance. - Water incidents to be included for Sea Scout Troops. 2) Make a journey of at least 20 miles on foot or by boat, with not more than 3 other Scouts. - Route must be one with which the Scout is not familiar and should, if possible, include stiff country. - Sleep out, using only the gear carried in a backpack. - Maximum weight 31 lbs which must include food. - The Examiner may set the candidate 1 or 2 tasks, which require a specific report but no general log of the journey is required. St. George's Award (Eagle) Senior Explorer Badge (optional, but encouraged) - Take part in an expedition with not less than 3 and not more than 5 other Scouts. The expedition may be on foot, boat, or on horseback. - The expedition must be planned to last at least 4 days, and at least 3 nights must be spent in tents. All necessary equipment and food must be taken and all meals prepared by members of the party. - All Scouts in the party will take an equal part in the planning arrangements before and during the expedition, but it is not necessary that all participants should be under test. - A detailed log of the expedition must be kept be each member of the party, having previously agreed between themselves a different emphasis for each log - eg weather, geography, history, architecture, archaeology, botany, ornithology. - The route and special log subjects must have the prior approval of the examiner. - An expedition on foot will cover at least 50 miles in wild country. The 3 nights will be spent at different campsites. - An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc. - An expedition on Horseback will cover at least 200 miles. In wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites. - An expedition, whether on foot or otherwise, must be a test of determination, courage, physical endurance and a high degree of co-operation among those taking part. HOW MANY NIGHTS in the field? Tenderfoot: Take part in an overnight outdoor Patrol or Troop activity. Explain how you used "Leave No Trace" principles to minimize the impact of your campsites on the local wildlife and environment. Keep a detailed camp logbook and show it to your Patrol Leader. Second Class: Camp with your Patrol for a minimum of 6 nights. First Class: Have camped with your Patrol no less than 12 nights. Scout Cord (Star): Have camped with your Patrol no less than 22 nights. Bushman's Cord (Life) Have camped with your Patrol no less than 30 nights. St. George's Award (Eagle): Have camped with your Patrol no less than 40 nights. HOW MUCH COOKING? Cooking requirements are "bundled" into other requirements and are geared toward use in Scout Journeys, but Scouts can use lightweight backpacking stoves on their required advancement expeditions: Second Class Explain the general rules of health. Discuss personal hygiene, good eating habits, the need for water purification, personal fitness, and using a latrine. Describe a good camp dish washing system. Be able to recognize and name six common trees in your area, and explain the values of their wood for burning. Lay and light a fire outdoors using all natural materials, and using not more than two matches. Cook over this fire a meal for yourself and at least one other person, consisting of: fresh meat (or a protein substitute) and potatoes; and a bread twist, flapjack, or other bread. Also make a hot beverage, soup, or a cooked dessert. Explain how you used Leave No Trace principles to minimize the impact of your fire on the local environment. First Class Choose a campsite for a Patrol weekend camp, and explain how you used Leave No Trace principles to minimize the impact of your campsite on the local wildlife and environment. Plan the program, menu, and duty roster. Supervise your Patrol members as they pitch, strike, and pack their tents, acting as leader. Where possible, this should tested by practical inspection of a Patrol weekend camp. Camp out with another Scout in a simple shelter such as a light-weight tarp. While on the campout cook a no-utensils meal consisting of a main course, a vegetable, and a dessert item. Explain how you used Leave No Trace principles to minimize the impact of your campsite on the local wildlife and environment. HOW COMPREHENSIVE a knowledge of first aid? BSA First Aid is good, but would be improved with Traditional Scouting required annual certification by an outside agency. For more details about Traditional Scouting Advancement Rigor, see The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/index.htm Kudu

Trevorum writes: Now we can just take him as comic relief. Just be careful not to offend any militant Universalists in the process! Kudu

Fuzzy Bear writes: Did the District Commissioner or any of his henchmen think to ask poor Little Mark if he believed in a rock before they sent him packing? BEFORE little Mark was allowed to declare his belief in rocks, his dad was required to affirm in writing that the "best type of citizenship" is limited to people who believe in the old-fashioned Middle-Eastern god named "God" who keeps all the planets spinning on their axes, and decides which sports teams are worthy of His favors and blessings: "The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship...." Hunt writes: But I'm nonplussed by the rest of Kudu's rant. You call it a rant because you want to avoid the central issue which is "how can turning your back on a six-year-old be consistent with the central message of Baden-Powell's Practical Christianity?" Are you sure you don't want to take it back? OK, Hunt, I will admit that a closer reading of Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that eternal life is based SOLEY on Practical Christianity (in other words, a Scout's Good Turns and NOT his professed creed: "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'"). Therefore, "Kudu's Prayer" (which asks for forgiveness for the wickedness of our endorsement of the DRP "'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me") may not be enough to keep we accursed goats from the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Tell you what, I've risked the ire of militant Universalists over the subject of eternal damnation and laid out my beliefs on the spiritual meaning of the enforcement of the DRP, so why don't you likewise summon up the courage of your convictions and stand before your congregation at an appropriate time and announce to one and all that "Jesus wants us to turn our backs on six-year-olds," and report back to us? We can compare notes. I'm assuming you'd like to be taken seriously when you advance your other ideas on this board. Being taken seriously is vastly over-rated. If I sign off on the BSA's treatment of six-year-old Mark Welsh, is anyone going to say "Golly, Kudu is so reasonable on this issue that I am now compelled to agree that the so-called 'Eight Methods of Scouting' are NOT equal in theory OR in practice!"? My job is to point out the most basic and astonishingly obvious principles of Baden-Powell's game. As has been mentioned ad infinitem, BSA's religious requirement is extremely broad, and is hardly limited to fundamentalists. It is limited to people who are willing to sign off on a religious fundamentalist test for citizenship. religious - fundamentalism: a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic religious principles The "recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings as being necessary to the best type of citizenship" was transformed from a quaint old-fashioned, early 20th century piece of Scouting history when it was resurrected and added to modern BSA membership applications with its strict adherence enforced by going to court to exclude six-year-old Mark Welsh. Boy Scouts of America: a movement that requires a strict adherence to the literal Declaration of Religious Principle Perhaps you could understand this better if the DRP did not require that the quality of everyone's citizenship be tested by their acknowledgement of the god that YOU happen to believe in. For instance, Jeffrey H writes: What bothers me is when an OA member begins praying to the Great Scout Spirit or Great Spirit and Im supposed to accept that as my personal belief? Not. This is good example of the BSA promoting a religion I do not practice. In this scenario, their non-sectarian policy falls on its face. I have high respect for Native Americans and their religions, but I dont accept their religious views as my own. Now suppose that to join the BSA Jeffrey must first affirm in writing his "recognition of the Great Spirit as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of the Great Spirit's favors and blessings as being necessary to the best type of citizenship." He seems to understand why the BSA's non-sectarian policy falls on its face. Would he sign it? According to some sources, Islam, the second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, is also the fastest-growing religion. Suppose Muslims become the majority religion in the BSA and they forced everyone to affirm in writing that the "recognition of Allah as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of Allah's favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship." Allah is the One and Only God but how many of the fundamentalist Christians who celebrate barring six-year-old Mark Welsh from being a Tiger Scout would affirm in writing their recognition of Allah as the ruling and leading power in the universe so that their six-year-old boy could join? What Lisabob keeps going back to is the idea that if "duty to God" is truly a core element of BSA's goals and programs, there is nothing wrong with having a program that reflects that element. As detailed above, what Lisabob keeps going back to is the idea that Baden-Powell was wrong about religion and that what active boys need is more indoor schoolmarm book learning. if religion really IS a core element, then all this moaning and groaning about excluding non-religious people is essentially sour grapes by people who would like to join a camping club without accepting the other baggage of the club. You don't understand, Hunt. Baden-Powell's Scouting IS all about a camping club that turns religion into a game that ANY boy can play. BSA Scouting is all about religious baggage in a monopoly Elvis club run by people who hate Elvis and make up phony quotes like: "Britney Spears is Elvis with a Purpose" -- Baden-Powell As for BSA being a "state-sponsored religious monopoly," this is nonsense, since the federal charter essentially gives BSA nothing more than ordinary intellectual property law would give it. The BSA is a state-sponsored religious monopoly on Scouting. You are correct about the Congressional Charter actually establishing that monopoly. The idea that it grants the BSA exclusive rights to the term "boy" or "scout" (any more than the Red Cross's Congressional Charter grants them exclusive rights to the terms "red" or "cross") was made up by activist judges. We will be hearing more about that in the years to come as the YouthScouts case gains notoriety. Even if the charter were eliminated, nothing would change. MAYBE some courts would allow some other groups to call themselves "Scouts" of some kind (although not "Boy Scouts of America"), but the effect on BSA membership would likely be minimal. I agree. Baden-Powell's Scouting will always be just a small niche market. Americans prefer the One-Minute Parlor Scouting employment agency version where any boy can earn Eagle for his resume without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. But like the Alaskan wilderness, it is nice to know that the real thing is out there somewhere. Kudu

Eagledad writes: Scouting is not as cold and hard as some here would like to paint because the program is worked by folks with noble intentions for our youth. You know what they say about "noble intentions," Eagledad, the road to hell is paved with them! The boys in six-year-old Mark Welsh's public school classroom got pumped up over a flyer distributed by their teacher "Join Tiger Cubs, BSA, & Have Lots of Fun!" The flyer said "any boy . . . can join." It turned out that NOT any boy can join. The "folks with noble intentions for our youth" were instructed to turn their backs on Mark Welsh despite his tears, because his father would not sign the "Declaration of Religious Principle," which requires that you affirm in writing that people who do not recognize "God" as "the ruling and leading power in the universe" are not "the best kind of citizens." The BSA went to court to defend its right to reject Mark Welsh. By most non-BSA standards this is the "cold and hard" treatment of a six-year-old. Now of course if your "noble intentions for our youth" do include the "cold and hard" treatment of six-year-olds, then you will be quick to point out that Mark's father is to blame because all he had to do was affirm in writing the state-imposed religious test for good citizenship. I think this is where Lisabob's energies should be directed: Rather than asking religious fundamentalists to please design advancement requirements for Boy Scouts so that they can learn to equate "reverence" with a cold heart, Lisabob should propose legislation that would require the BSA to make the kind of disclosure that you see on medical advertising on television. Something along the lines of: "Join Tiger Cubs, BSA, & Have Lots of Fun!" "Any boy can join if his parents are willing to affirm in writing that family members, friends, neighbors, and all of the Americans who do not recognize "God" as "the ruling and leading power in the universe" are not "the best kind of citizens." I think that is fair. If you believe that this "cold and hard" treatment of six-year-olds is what "Duty to God" and "reverence" is all about, then why not have the courage of your convictions and say so when you sell the BSA brand of Scouting to the American public? So far that is two boys in one family you can think of, who else? How many boys does anyone know that werent given the scouting experience because they hadnt committed to god? Um, only one single boy like six-year-old Mark Welsh is enough, Barry, if you really believe that whatever you do to the least of your brothers, you do to the Son of God himself (Matthew 25:40). If I remember correctly, a dialogue a few years back between the Webmasters of the major anti-BSA-discrimination Websites indicated that a combined total of 3-4 families a month contacted them because they were in the same situation as the parents of six-year-old Mark Welsh. "So, you see?" you may say, "That is not so many." In a way you are correct. In my own experience, of the eight Scouts (including a couple of SPLs) that have told me over the years that they are atheist, only the family of one eleven-year-old, Timmy (who told me that "God is fake like Santa Claus"), actually spoke about suing the local Council if the BSA kicked their son out of Scouts. People who are new to the BSA brand of Scouting and are therefore only lukewarm on breaking the heats of six-year-olds may ask, "What good does it do to go to court to turn our backs on little children?" Six-year-old Mark Welsh made the perfect target for the BSA because by the standards of most non-Scouting Christians he was a truly innocent child, the kind that Jesus had in mind when he said to "Tolerate the little children and do not forbid them to encounter me, because their nature is the nature of the kingdom of heaven." Religious fundamentalists who turn their backs on the kingdom of heaven by forbidding the very youngest of children to encounter Practical Christianity through Scouting tend to be more committed to their "values" than families that are just trying to decide with whom they want their children to associate for a few hours a week. When a family like Timmy's learns that the BSA is willing to commit the unlimited resources of a state-sanctioned religious monopoly to go to court to exclude an innocent child like six-year-old Mark Welsh, they tend to believe that putting their own child in harm's way is not worth the price of fighting this state-imposed religious evil. Wouldn't it be ironic if everyone who signs the Declaration of Religious Principle goes to hell unless they ask God for forgiveness for signing it? To Satan the beauty of the DRP is that nobody who signed it will even ask for this forgiveness because they are so convinced that the BSA knows what it is doing when it equates "Duty to God" and "reverence" with exclusion. Those who do NOT believe that joining the BSA is worth eternal damnation should get down on their knees right now and ask forgiveness for their involvement in the state-sanctioned religious monopoly on Scouting. This will help you get right with the Lord: Kudu's Prayer Heavenly Father we beseech thee to forgive us for signing the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle in our cold and hard-hearted contempt for the plain and simple message of love brought to us by your only begotten son, Jesus Christ. We have knowingly and willingly forsaken our duty to comfort the weak and powerless of society in our vain and erring efforts along the path of good intentions. Please forgive us oh Lord, and we beg thee to ease the pain that as members of the Boy Scouts of America we have caused the very smallest and most innocent of children like Mark Welsh. Amen Go ahead! You will all feel much better if you give up all of your excuses and simply allow God to shine the light of love on the dark wickedness of your cold and hard BSA heart. And do not worry, none of the millionaires at BSA Headquarters or their fundamentalist masters will know that you secretly hedged your bets and prayed for forgiveness until they turn to each other in the Lake of Fire and ask, "Hey, where is Eagledad?" When you do get to the gates of heaven and St. Peter sees your dress-designer BSA Uniform and he tells you that those who were so cold and hard to have signed the Declaration of Religious Principle are not permitted to enter the kingdom of heaven because it is of the very same nature as the six-year-old's heart that you turned your back upon, be sure to tell him: "No, it's OK Peter, Kudu sent me!"

How do you deal with bad language? and swearing Scouts? Baden-Powell had a simple solution. Scout Law dictated that: The punishment for swearing or using bad language is for each offence a mug of cold water to be poured down the offender's sleeve by the other Scouts. It was the punishment invented by an old British Scout, Captain John Smith, three hundred years ago. See: http://inquiry.net/ideals/scout_law/chart.htm Times have changed, however, and popular culture now celebrates the crude language used by rap artists and the Bush Administration. Just before a campaign speech in Illinois, George W. Bush said to his running mate Dick Cheney in front of a live microphone: "There's Adam Clymer, major league assh*le from the New York Times." Dick Cheney told Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy to "Go f*ck yourself!" during the U.S. Senates annual photo session. When one of my Scouts uses that language I give him one warning: purely as a safety issue we can not allow a Scout who talks like a Dirty Dick Cheney to take Rifle Merit Badge or Shotgun Merit Badge at summer camp because he is likely to get drunk and shoot someone in the face. If you use this no-nonsense, conservative approach you will no longer have a problem with White House Language in your Troop! Kudu

John-in-KC writes: I think the major issue is where do we perceive attacks on the values Scouting holds dear in modern American society, and where we can counteract the attacks through using tools of the Scouting Program? Kudu comments to the "religion of the woods", but the fact of the matter is, if you read Robert SS Baden-Powell's writings, he is expressly and overtly a Christian. Baden-Powell was a Christian in the "love others, feed the hungry, attend to the sick, do a good turn daily" sense, not the Ollie North "where do we perceive attacks on the values Scouting holds dear in modern American society, and where we can counteract the attacks through using tools of the Scouting Program?" kind. B-P did not attend church on a regular basis, preferring to spend the time in nature. He quoted Carlyle as saying: "The religion of a man is not the creed he professes but his life--what he acts upon, and knows of life, and his duty in it. A bad man who believes in a creed is no more religious than the good man who does not." He had the wisdom to understand that not all youth in the Empire would be Christian, so he gave substantial latitude. As I read his writings, though, I think he expected young subjects of the Crown to be inside Christendom in one form or another. That is indeed an odd combination of sentences. From the very beginning Baden-Powell explicitly stated that cultures that do NOT believe in God could be model examples of his idea of "Practical Christianity:" Its aim should be to instill "character" into the men of the future. By "character" is meat a spirit of manly self-reliance and of unselfishness -- something of the practical Christianity which (although they are Buddhists in theory) distinguishes the Burmese in their daily life (Baden-Powell, Scouting for Boys) John-in-KC writes: In other words, "Religion of the Woods" is NOT, imo, a construct to get you almost to an agnostic sorta godhead; It depends on how you read it. Religious fundamentalists might see the following passage that refers to St. George as requiring a belief in dragons, but most atheists and agnostics would read it in the anthropological spirit that it (and the more intellectually challenging The Order of Nature book upon which it is based) was written: http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm I would note that atheism and agnosticism are often philosophical stances held in responce to philosophical assertions made by theists, so therefore such frames of mind tend to be intellectual in nature and NOT in the spirit of the awe and wonder which Baden-Powell's "Religion of the Woods" (AKA "Religion of the Backwoods") is intended to inspire. This awe and wonder would be closer to the Carl Sagan/Einstein/Spinoza pantheistic sense of "God as the sum total of all the natural laws of physics in the universe." it's a tool in the toolbox to get the young man to the Almighty God he already believes in. Yes, it can be used by conservative Christians for that. But it can be used by atheist parents to instill in their children a Carl Sagan sense of awe and wonder about the process of scientific discovery as well. Packsaddle writes: But I'm also realistic enough to understand that, having rendered unto Caesar, conservation of my energy involves applying it to one of those 'local option' units, and not to BSA. Except, perhaps, for spending some time recreating on these threads. Yes, we all must make compromises based on our limited individual energies and talents. As I see it, the real problem is that Scouting is currently a state-sanctioned religious monopoly and as such you need within this monopoly about 20,000 Scouting units to outvote the policies of a major conservative church. If we succeed in the deregulation of Scouting, it will be easier to establish niche markets for progressive churches but even then our efforts will continue to be limited by our individual energies and talents. Stay tuned! Kudu

Lisabob writes: your posts tend to be mono-thematic. This thread has nothing to do with Wood Badge and I do tire of your attempt to blame all ills, real and perceived, of the current BSA program on the WB for the 21st Century course syllabus. Training. Training. Training. Wood Badge is bad for Scouting because it replaces the Patrol Method with the so-called "Leadership Development Method." This contradicts the most basic principle of Scouting theory, that Scouting is based on "education" rather than mere "instruction": Here, then, lies the most important object in the Boy Scout training--to educate; not to instruct, mind you, but to educate, that is, to draw out the boy to learn for himself, of his own desire, the things that tend to build up character in him (Baden-Powell, Aids To Scouting). Or put another way: Thirdly, the business of the Scoutmaster--and a very interesting one it is--is to draw out each boy and find out what is in him, and then to catch hold of the good and develop it to the exclusion of the bad. There is five per cent of good even in the worst character. The sport is to find it, and then to develop it on to an 80 or 90 per cent basis. This is education instead of instruction of the young mind (Baden-Powell, Aids To Scouting). If your advanced training had been based on Traditional Wood Badge education (a week of Leadership Training in the Patrol Method by learning Outdoor Skills in a Wood Badge Patrol) rather than a week of instruction in the pop-corporate Leadership Development Method, would you now believe that what Scouting needs is more indoor instruction? You are what you train for. But if we're going to engage in witch hunts and inflammatory rhetoric about religion's role in the BSA - which seems to happen a lot - then I think the BSA should get up its collective gumption and put its money where its mouth is (or at least, where its current policies encourage certain members to go) and add explicit requirements in support of that core component. The Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (IOLS) course has one of those "explicit requirements in support of that core component:" a religion session. A single weekend is not long enough for even a superficial introduction to outdoor skills, so why is precious time wasted shoving this religion stuff down our throats in an outdoor skills course? I was IOLS course director for a number of years and I was surprised at how quickly a really friendly group of Scouters would start to say ugly things if in the religion session someone brought up the BSA policy on atheists. You may remember that this is the training session that tripped up 19-year-old Darrell Lambert when a District Chairman said that "Anyone that doesn't believe in God isn't a good citizen." Of course we all agreed to that in writing when we signed the Declaration of Religious Principle (DRP), but then he added that if an atheist happened to find a wallet laying on the ground, the atheist would "pick it up (and) plunder the money." Teenagers can be quick to respond to such religious bigotry without thinking about the consequences, and if we add your indoor instruction to what little is left of our outdoor education program we will have many more of such confrontations. Nor do I believe there's any truth to your claim that this is "cub scouting" the boy scout program, which is apparently meant in a derogatory manner. Um, yes. "Cub Scouting the Boy Scout program" means to dumb down the outdoor Boy Scout education program, in this case with indoor Cub Scout instruction. The cub scout program is worthy in its own right (if you don't think so, that's your prerogative but has little to do with the current thread either) It has everything to do with this thread because you refer to Cub Scout requirements in your first two posts, and in your third you seem to agree with Longhaul that Boy Scouts need something along the lines of the Webelos Badge requirements that he quotes. and no one except you is talking about turning boy scouts into cub scouts. Well yes you are, and I notice that even after posting this assertion you did not then take exception to John-in-KC when he proposed the use the Webelos requirements and to make Boy Scouts do "all of them, not do two." I made a comparison in terms of religious requirements to point out to those who may have missed it, that in SOME of its programs, BSA is quite explicit about using religion as an advancement requirement and that it COULD be done in a fairly generic way (as the various cub requirements reflect). So the argument against doing so in the boy scout program should not be "it can't be done" because it IS already being done elsewhere in the BSA family. Yeah, in the same way that Gold Loops from Irving Texas smile approvingly when adult Boy Scout leaders are handed colored construction paper, school paste, and tiny rounded safety scissors by well-meaning but dim-witted Cub Scout ladies at a National "Train the Trainer" course. Sure, scissors & paste is being done elsewhere in the BSA family but that does mean that it should be done in Boy Scouts. And finally - I agree very much with the notion of the religion of the woods. I will say from my personal experience, that's exactly how and where I decided for myself that there must be a higher power and this was not in keeping with my formal religious upbringing, which I had more or less rejected for various reasons. Then why not build from this direct experience that you share with Baden-Powell, rather than to impose religious instruction which he describes as the opposite of Scouting? Religion can only be "caught," not "taught." It is not a dressing donned from outside, put on for Sunday wear. It is a true part of a boy's character, a development of soul, and not a veneer that may peel off. It is a matter of personality, of inner conviction, not of instruction. Speaking from a fairly wide personal experience, having had some thousands of young men through my hands, I have reached the conclusion that the actions of a very large proportion of our men are, at present, very little guided by religious conviction. This may be attributed to a great extent to the fact that often instruction instead of education has been employed in the religious training of the boy. The consequence has been that the best boys in the Bible class or Sunday School have grasped the idea, but in many cases they have, by perfection in the letter, missed the spirit of the teaching and have become zealots with a restricted outlook, while the majority have never really been enthused, and have, as soon as they have left the class or school, lapsed into indifference and irreligion, and there has been no hand to retain them at the critical time of their lives, i.e., sixteen to twenty-four... On the practical side, however, the Scoutmaster can in every case do an immense amount towards helping the religious teacher, just as he can help the schoolmaster by inculcating in his boys, in camp and club, the practical application of what they have been learning in theory in the school. The wonder to me of all wonders is how some teachers have neglected this easy and unfailing means of education and have struggled to impose Biblical instruction as the first step towards getting a restless, full-spirited boy to think of higher things (Baden-Powell, Aids To Scouting). Lisabob writes: I imagine that, if I had been a boy and had been in boy scouts (which, growing up in a scouting family, I almost certainly would have been) then there would have been a point as a teen where I wouldn't have met the membership requirement with regard to religious belief. I don't think we, as an organization, do ourselves or the boys we serve or the public in general much service by telling people in that position that they cannot be members anymore while they sort through their beliefs (or lack thereof). But that's my view, and it is not current BSA policy. Then why waste your energy on the hypocrisy of religious fundamentalists who inflict this policy not only on older Scouts who are "sorting through their beliefs," but on six-year-old boys like Elliot Welsh who have no way to understand why they are being discriminated against? You must know in your heart that it is contrary to the central message of both Jesus Christ and Baden-Powell. You have rendered unto Caesar that which is Caesar's by signing the DRP imposed by the state's religious monopoly on Scouting. That is all the BSA requires. Build on what you know directly from your own experience of the Religion of the Woods. The BSA does not know enough about Baden-Powell to make up a rule against that! Kudu

LongHaul writes: In reading your last two posts I get the feeling that you find the METHOD we call ADVANCEMENT to be BAD SCOUTING, because it is required. Huh? The actual Advancement (more correctly called "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft" in Baden-Powell's Scouting) requirements in early BSA Scouting did not short-circuit Scouting as you and Lisabob propose to do. If you look at the core program (Tenderfoot - First Class) in one of those reprints of the 1911 "First Edition" Handbook for Boys, you will find that it is ALL Scoutcraft except for First Class Requirement 11: "Furnish satisfactory evidence that he has put into practice in his daily life the principles of the scout oath and law." The two most important Advancement requirements (the Second Class and First Class Journeys) are included, and even the term "Rank" is used correctly to refer to leadership position (Patrol Leader, Scoutmaster, etc.) rather than to the level of mastery of Scoutcraft (Tenderfoot, First Class, etc). You would be correct to say that the "review" aspect of early Advancement, which involved written examinations at a regional "Court of Honor" was Bad Scouting because it prohibited the Patrol Leader from practicing the Patrol Method. Generally speaking BSA Scouters are all wannabe Patrol Leaders who will stop at nothing to take over the Patrol Leader's primary duty: the training, examination, and certification of his Patrol members' Scoutcraft skills. Let's be clear that BP actually wrote NONE of the BSA material or requirements including the OATH and the LAW. So in fact we have never done it the way BP did it. Well that is not so "clear," is it? The BSA based its legitimacy on being the American monopoly brand of Baden-Powell's game called "Scouting." Even now, the BSA invents phony Baden-Powell quotes like "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" to justify "Wood Badging" the program. Wood Badge (v): 1. to destroy something by requiring, explaining, or judging it. BSA Material: The original BSA Handbook (before the so-called "First Edition") was a copy of Baden-Powell's Scouting for Boys edited for the BSA by Ernest Seton. Requirements: The early Requirements are mostly copied from Baden-Powell. OATH and the LAW: Yes, James West managed to impose his indoor lawyer moral and religious views on B-P's outdoor Ideals. This completely screwed up the Three Points of the Scout Promise by adding the "morally straight" line, which forced the Three Points to become an abstraction rather than the actual three points of the Promise. This and the added "Clean" and "Reverent" Scout Laws would provide tons of press release material for our present religious fundamentalist rulers. That being said, the BSA Scout Oath and Law are just paraphrases of Baden-Powell's Promise and Law. BSA made Reverent a point in the Scout Law not BP, he only had 10, and it has been a point in the Law since the beginning. Being that it has always been part of the BSA approach why not some attention to it? Actually, the BSA Laws are one-word summaries of Baden-Powell's original nine (9) Scout Laws. B-P added "A Scout is clean in thought, word, and deed" presumably after viewing the BSA Laws, but found no use for "Brave" and "Reverent." For a chart of the history of Scout Law, see The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/ideals/scout_law/chart.htm It is interesting to note that according to page 56 of the BSA's own official History of the Boy Scouts of America, the process of adding the three extra Scout Laws also included a debate over the addition of an anti-self-abuse Scout Law. Given the lack of press releases on the subject coming out of Irving Texas these days, we must conclude that either 1) The BSA has in fact succeeded in stamping out this practice (in which case skeptics should congratulate the Christian fundamentalists on their efficiency) or 2) this is just another example of the "don't ask, don't tell" attitude to which Lisabob objects. So why don't we put our creative energies into "Personal Purity" Advancement requirements? We could require a Scout to meet with his religious leader to find out his religious institution's policy on the subject, and then report to his Scoutmaster and the BOR on his success in "putting this into practice in his daily life" since his last Rank Advancement. Certainly Personal Purity is a lot less personal than a Scout's Duty to God, which is really nobody else's business. Here, I will help Cub Scout the Boy Scout program: "Under the direction of your religious leader, practice Personal Purity for at least a month. Talk about your Personal Purity with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel." Look over the other 11 points and look carefully at the rank requirements over the years. All 11 are covered in some form or another in skill acquisition, POR, service projects, etc. No, they are not. For the most part, the Scout is left to make the moral connection between Scoutcraft and Scout Law for himself. It is the codifying of the Aims & Methods of Scouting into literal Advancement requirements that short-circuits Scouting. POR Advancement Requirements did not exist in William Hillcourt's program because they Wood Badge the Patrol Method. Service Projects should be done from the Spirit of Scouting, not for the cheap reward of credit for an Advancement requirement. Simply put, your approach fosters religious fundamentalism: the practice of the selective enforcement of the written word and the sitting in judgment of others. Real Scouting is the eventual internalization of Scout Law into a Scout's freely-chosen actions, not something he does so that he can have the quality of his spirit judged by you. If we just assume or hope the boy is seeing the God part why not the LNT, or First Aid or Cooking or Camping part? Because Scouting is a Game of Scoutcraft. This would be easier to understand if the BSA used Baden-Powell's Uniform design. On a B-P Uniform, the badges that represent a Scout's Service to Others ("Practical Christianity") such as "First Aid" are worn on the left sleeve of the Uniform, and the badges that represent a Scout's mastery of Scoutcraft ("The Religion of the Woods") such as "Cooking" and "Camping" are worn on the right sleeve of the Uniform. A sure way to gain his wholehearted realization of God is through Nature study, and of his Christian duties through the Scout's practice of good turns etc. Does making the boys smile, one of BPs points of the Law if I remember, and whistle constitute BAD SCOUTING? I'm sure that one could "address smiling in a requirement for a rank" and Wood Badge the joy out of it, yes. Reminding them to do it is like explaining a joke No? No. Reminding them to smile in the face of adversity is the Spirit of Scouting. I will leave it to the modernists to force them to meet with experts in the field to learn how to smile correctly, and to figure out a way to sit in judgement of the quality of their joy. Kudu

Hunt writes: The question is whether these are just words, or whether they are truly a core element of the program. The Scout Law also calls for a Scout to be "cheerful," but if that word were dropped from the Law would there be any real change in the BSA program? While you may ask boys at BORs whether they live reverently, what in the actual program promotes that virtue? Is Lisabob points out, there is really nothing in the advancement program that does so, for example. A better question is: "While you may ask boys at BORs whether they live cheerfully, what in the actual program promotes that virtue? As Lisabob [a recent Wood Badge victim] points out, there is really nothing in the advancement program that forces boys to be cheerful." Human beings are "meaning makers," Hunt. It is what we do. We can't help it. The Scout Law is an IDEAL, a guide to the Scouting GAME. When Scouts recite the Scout Law and then play a hard game of Scouting, their human brains eventually make a connection between the Ideals and the difficult game. It is what they do. They can't help it. Baden-Powell made them whistle when playing the Scouting Game made them wet, cold, and miserable: "A Scout smiles and whistles under all circumstances." If you are afraid that they "don't get it" and make the study of cheerfulness a part of the Advancement requirements, it is BAD SCOUTING. Bad Scouting is like explaining a joke. Explaining a joke is never funny or "cheerful," and explaining religion (rather making a game out of it as Baden-Powell suggests) is not "reverent" in the Scout meaning of the term. Perhaps an advancement requirement that would require a boy to learn about either his religion or a variety of religions. In other words, we would tell atheists that they are free to join but they must understand that they will be exposed to religious program content. Atheists would be better served by putting their energies into establishing a local Baden-Powell Scouting Group and playing the Game of Scouting as B-P intended it to be played, rather than attempting to spoil the national BSA program even more than it already is. The progressives did more lasting damage when they "modernized" BSA Scouting in 1972, than have the religious conservatives who currently control the Scouting monopoly. The road to bad Scouting is paved with progressive intentions. Kudu The boy is naturally inclined to religion, but to instruct him in the points which may appeal to the adult has often the result of either boring him off it or of making him a prig. A sure way to gain his wholehearted realization of God is through Nature study, and of his Christian duties through the Scout's practice of good turns etc. [scouting for Boys, 26th ed. page 243].

SR540Beaver wrote: I'm part of that rare breed of scouter who has not read a biography of Baden-Powell yet. I'm just curious how he utilized pranks as part of the scouting program to thicken the hides of the younger boys and turn them into manly men instead of nancy-boys? In all the controversies of Scouting, Scouters would do well to model their behavior on a description of Baden-Powell from a filmed interview with Terry Bonfield (one of the boys who accompanied B-P to Brownsea Island in August 1907): "He never put us in a position where we felt awkward or silly." Also consider Baden-Powell's "Eleventh Scout Law:" There is to the Scout code an eleventh Law, an unwritten one, namely, "a Scout is not a fool" [baden-Powell, Rovering to Success]. Given B-P's outspoken views on the qualities of character, example, goodwill, good turns, friendliness, courteousness, fair play, sportsmanship, honor, and straightforwardness, it is doubtful that he tolerated cheap "smoke-shifter" pranks on trusting Scouts designed to make them feel awkward, silly, and a fool. However, B-P utilized the creative spirit behind such pranks in perhaps the most important part of the Scouting program: Scouting Games. Many of the boys who joined Scouting in Baden-Powell's time were well aware of B-P's cunning, deception, stealth, and trickery as outlined in his military guide Aids to Scouting, especially chapters XIII: Spying; XIV: Scouting; and Appendix B: Scouting Competitions. The manuscript for the book had left Mafeking in the last mail packet to leave the city before the siege. The opening sentence of the first chapter, "Pluck, Self-Reliance, and Discretion," read: The main key to sucess in scouting is to have pluck and self-reliance. I will show you what these are, and how to get them. Of course it was his "pluck" and self-reliance against the Boers that made Baden-Powell famous, and Aids to Scouting became a runaway best-seller during the 217 day siege of Mafeking. It was closely read by English boys who applied it to their military play. The Scouting Competitions Appendix featured the application of pluck and cunning in seven military games, most of which eventually became part of Boy Scout training games including Spider and Fly, and the Flag Stealing Competition ("Capture the Flag"). Adults who wish to use their Leadership training in Scouting to "thicken the hides of the younger boys and turn them into manly men instead of nancy-boys," would do well to channel these creative urges into learning a few of the 84 Scouting Wide Games based on B-P's military games and incorporating them in monthly campouts. See The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Baden-Powell himself tested the vigilance of his Scouts against "pranks" that employed the skills of stalking and spying learned from his Scouting Games. The game of sentry duty continued through the night during the Brownsea Campout, and he tested the sentries by "scouting" their Patrols: The boys on sentry duty during night picket took their jobs seriously -- and well they might: there were 'enemies' about. One night, for instance, the van Raalte's young son and daughter decided to 'invade' the camp. They were 'arrested' and sent on their way home. Another night, a party of ladies and gentlemen -- visitors at Brownsea Castle -- were intercepted during a twilight stroll. Even Baden-Powell himself became the victim of a night picket sentry on one of this attempts to 'scout' a patrol. He was spotted by his nephew, Donald, hanging on for dear life to a tree limb overhead [baden-Powell: The Two Lives of a Hero Page 271]. A mention of Snipe Hunting in Hillcourt's biography of B-P takes place in 1890 in Malta: As intelligence officer for the Mediterranean area, Baden-Powell was in charge of gathering and submitting to the War Office information on the disposition of troops and ships of the different countries, their armament and other items of military value. He first turned his eyes south and decided to go 'snipe hunting' in Tunis and Algeria. On his first trip to these North African countries, both of them French regencies, Baden-Powell focused his attention on Bizerta.... "B-P took a room in Bizerta overlooking the canal and the lake and spent several days roaming the town and the surrounding area, ostensibly looking for birds in the snipe bogs. When he had gathered all the data he considered pertinent he went inland with a guide, an interpreter, and a couple of beaters, for an honest-to-goodness snipe shoot at a farm owned by a British settler, near Mateur.... On other trips to North Africa, the inquisitive Baden-Powell covered the area from Nemours in French Algeria to Tripoli, the capital of Turkish Tripoli, by sea, by railway, by diligence, on horseback and on foot. He visited Oran and Algiers, Constantine and Biskra, Tunis and Kairouan, Sousse and Gabes. He went 'snipe shooting' and snipe shooting, watched the maneuvers of Spahis and Chasseurs d'Afrique, witnessed the obvious growth of the harbour of Bizerta into a major French naval base -- and sent reams of reports and scores of sketches and maps off to England." When it came time for B-P to resign as military secretary and return to his regiment in time to take part in the spring training, the Governor sent B-P's resignation to London. The War Office's telegram accepting B-P's resignation contained a bouquet for his work as Intelligence Officer in the form of a grant of 40 [English Pounds] for a side trip on the way home, for 'snipe hunting' in Algeria." [baden Powell: The Two Lives of a Hero, William Hillcourt, 1992, Pages 96-101]. Kudu

The question came up about what to do with the single ASPL and should we pull an older boy from one of the patrols to tent with him. The SM didn't want to make an exception and allow the ASPL to tent alone because it would set a precedent where other boys might start asking to do it because he was able to. They ended up pulling the older boy out of a patrol to tent with him. It is interesting that whenever trained BSA Scouters decide to get "creative," their first impulse is to short-circuit the Patrol Method. I wonder where they learn that the Patrol Method is not really all that important? Could it be, um, BSA training? Gasp! WWKBD? And why does this SPL need two (2) ASPLs? According to the Wood Badge types, the ASPL is there to boss around the Scouts in PORs appointed by the SPL. So, leave the two (2) ASPLs home to audit the Troop Scribe's books, edit the Troop Historian's manuscripts, and check the Librarian's book shelves against his card catalog. This frees up the two (2) ASPLs' car seats to stack the extra tents that don't fit into the two Troop trailers! Giant Kudos to your SPL for recognizing a potential problem down the road by making an exception - pulling an older Scout from one of the patrols sounds like a good solution. Yeah, think of all the potential problems that "making an exception" presents to control freaks. A SPL (or SM) yanking a kid out of another Patrol just to make the tents "come out even" is the Troop Method, not the Patrol Method. Without a tent occupancy policy for car camping (backpacking with inexperienced Scouts is different), most Scouts actually prefer to share a tent. Tents with only one Scout provide slack for the unexpected, as for example when Scouts learn about new things in rain storms like why everybody told them not to set up their tent in that nice low spot. we had 3 murders at a Girl Scout camp here in Oklahoma. More people get killed in traffic while driving to Ken Blanchard courses in a single year than have been murdered at Scout camps in the entire course of human history. Remember when an axe was a symbol of Wood Badge? If we really want to save precious human lives, let's ban Ken Blanchard from Scouting and return Wood Badge to safe subjects like axemanship. We use bigger tents as I've said 5 or six to a tent normally...This way if your patrol tent gets busted everybody sleeps in a busted tent. Generally speaking, without adults in control: 1 Scout per tent = 8 hours sleep. 2 Scouts per tent = 4 hours sleep. 3 Scouts per tent = 2 hours sleep. 4 Scouts per tent = 0 hours sleep. That being said, in Baden-Powell's day an entire Patrol slept together in one large tent as in LongHaul's Troop. I wonder what the group dynamics were back then, since the Patrols were spaced at least 100 yards apart and were under the leadership of the Patrol Leader: So it results that Scouts' camps should be small -- not more than one Troop camped together; and even then each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit. B-P's Outlook October, 1909 And: I strongly advise small camps of about half a dozen Patrols; each Patrol in a separate tent and on separate ground, so that the Scouts do not feel themselves to be part of a big herd, but members of independent responsible units. Patrols should be kept intact under all circumstances. Baden-Powell, Footsteps of the Founder, page 107. Our troop uses tarps or plastic sheeting. The entire patrol can fit under one or two tarp lean-to's. They're open to the world so behavior isn't usually an issue. Some real outdoor camping skills are happening here if your Patrols can stay dry under a tarp during a rain storm. If they set up these tarps themselves, it is a great example of the Patrol Method in action. We have heard of a troop that has all Timberline 2 man tents, and everyone in the troop has to use a troop tent and share it with another Scout unless there is an odd number of Scouts in which case they squeeze 3 Scouts into one tent. Even the Scouters have to share troop tents. Only explanation I got was that they wanted the same type of tent accommodations for everyone. It appears to work for them. I've see these Troop Method units at Camporees. The identical tents are arranged on a tight and orderly grid (just how do they get exactly the same number of Scouts to show up in each Patrol?) with "1,000 watt" gas lanterns from the guard towers flooding the entire area like an automobile sales lot at night. A good reason to avoid Camporees. troop policy is "ya wake up, ya get your buddy up to take the trip with you..." Geez. A whistle on a beaded pull-chain around your neck works wonders when once every twenty years a Scout gets lost on the way to the outhouse. Also, four out of five axe-murderers report a preference for tents with two Scouts over a tent with a police whistle. I'm with Prairie, if this is REALLY an issue then have them rehearse the trip after dark, and annoy people like me with one of those $3.00 blinking LED bicycle lights (or something with rechargeable batteries) stuck on the outhouse. I use a trail of bread crumbs myself. I can't believe the lack of safety I'm reading here! The "Troop of No Pranks Program Guide" clearly states that if a "child" needs to go to the latrine during the night, he must call out loudly until 2 adults (YP) arrive to escort him. This is the best post I have read since Beavah's suggestions for a dignified Uniform Inspection, except that BrentAllen is reckless for not securing the Scout with an ambulatory toddler safety harness & leash while the Scout is briefly out of sight doing his business, and a PFD in case he falls in. Kudu

Latest sewing project involves changing a BDU khaki/tan shirt to a prototype field shirt. Prairie, do you have jpgs of your experiments you would like to share? go bush and desert camo with black strips for office and colored strips for rank, How about GREEN BARS for office? Now there is a simple, clutter-free idea! :-) The Camping shirt could be the new nylon activity shirt, with a few patches for leader position, rank, unit number and patrol. I'd go along with that as long the indoor shirt is optional in an outdoor association. That way you could spot from a greater distance Wood Badge types coming at you from their indoor seminars :-) How many of you wear neckerchiefs while out on real backpacking trips (AT, Philmont)? The Neckerchief is the universal international icon of Scouting so the shirt should be designed with it in mind (rather than as the 1980 "fashion accessory" of today), but I've never been comfortable wearing one backpacking either, despite their widespread frontier origin from the African Transfeldt to the American wild west. I've worn nylon and polypro shirts. I've worn woolen trou and shirts as well. Give me natural fibers, please. Environmentally friendly. Lots less shocking. Shocking? Wool can cause severe itching among some people, even "smart wool" with a layer between it and the skin. Wool is also heavy, especially when wet. I've got to be frank here and say I have never heard ONE complaint about the Scout uniform amongst the 30 boys in our troop or 7 leaders. My experience is that this goes in cycles. The more nerds in your Troop, the less complaints. I first became aware of the issue when I noticed that each "generation" of Scouts had exactly the same complaint when they explained why they refused to wear their expensive BSA Scout pants. When we switched to BDUs (and then nylon zip-offs) in the 1990s they started wearing them to school. If this is not a widespread problem, then why do so many trained control freaks pride themselves on holding the Advancement Method hostage to the Uniform Method? I am real proud of the uniforming in our troop for parades, meetings, and service projects, and wherever uniforms are necessary. Dress designers and their loyal fellow-travelers may take great pride in wearing an indoor Uniform outdoors, but for outdoor parades give me an outdoor Uniform that screams "HIGH ADVENTURE"! Oh, and one nylon American flag per Scout, the larger the better. An elastic cuff at the bottom would be a nice feature For at least five years now the smarter nylon zip-off designs have been sold in broad size RANGES, with an elastic shockcord at the bottom that adjusts the actual length with each wearing. Obviously this is the preferred solution for Scouts as they undergo rapid growth spurts. Some say that the shockcord also helps form a barrier against the ticks that carry Lime Disease, which is a plus in an outdoor Uniform. See: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm Kudu

LongHaul writes: Why BP didnt choose to include religion in his original publications is a good question. Maybe some of our historians can answer it for us. Baden-Powell was often asked this question. He replied: There is no religious side to the Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realisation and service of God. [HQ Gazette, November 1920]. Baden-Powell called this realization of God "The Religion of the Backwoods," and this service of God "Practical Christianity." In B-P Scouting the realization of God or "The Religion of the Backwoods" is achieved through the close study of nature, or "Scoutcraft": Scoutcraft is a means through which the veriest hooligan can be brought to higher thought and to the elements of faith in God" [Aids to Scoutmastership, WB ed, page 22] See The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm Service of God or "Practical Christianity" is achieved through "Service to Others": The boy is naturally inclined to religion, but to instruct him in the points which may appeal to the adult has often the result of either boring him off it or of making him a prig. A sure way to gain his wholehearted realization of God is through Nature study, and of his Christian duties through the Scout's practice of good turns etc. Scouting for Boys, 26th ed. page 243 B-P seems to have undergone a spiritual transformation based on the "outdoor life" in the summer of 1898 on a trip to Kashmir. This spiritual insight combined with his creative use of patrols and scouting in the military seems to be the real inspiration for Boy Scouting, with the "Aims of Scouting" as a afterthought for Wood Badge types to fixate upon. See extensive quotes from Tim Jeal's treatment of the subject of spiritual growth and Scouting at: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm The question of this thread as I see it is; Duty to God is a core value of the program why isnt it addressed in any requirement for any rank within the Boy Scout program? We address every other core value at some point in rank advancement. Seems conspicuous by its absence. Real Scouting is a game that always uses the INDIRECT MEANS of SCOUTCRAFT to promote its core values. To promote them directly is just parking lot fundamentalism! Baden-Powell did not make Duty to God an "Advancement" (a BSA term) requirement for the same reason that he did not create Citizenship, or Fitness, or Character, or Scout Spirit, or Leadership requirements for Advancement: to do so would cheapen it by transforming an Ideal into an Obligation (as the BSA did with "Duty to God" in a formal policy statement). For instance "Scout Spirit" requirements turn an intangible Boy Scout spiritual quality into a corrupt, cheap-shot way for trivial adults to force teenage boys to wear a 1980 dress designer's hot house fashion statement by presuming to judge their "spirit" as a requirement for Advancement. Well, you may ask, then why hasn't the BSA cheapened religion by turning it into an Advancement requirement? That is indeed a genuine mystery in the same way that the lack of a BSA "Creation Science" Merit Badge is a genuine mystery :-p Kudu

Only when playing "Simon Says" with Ken Blanchard.

Eagledad writes: most adults stumble because they don't focus on the outcome, goals or vision. I enjoy reading Kudu's post, but I always feel he hasn't yet understood the the means justifies the end...My questions here are what do you want the boys to get from the program? That is a question Kudu needs to ask as well. The "means justifies the end," eh? The "means" in BSA Scouting are the so-called "Eight Methods of Scouting," and the "end" in BSA Scouting is the so-called "Three Aims of Scouting." The Game of Scouting as it is described by Baden-Powell or William Hillcourt is such a perfect game that an adult can slap just about ANY justification onto it and feel that his efforts are all worthwhile. So, indeed, "the means justifies the end!" The problem with BSA Scouting is that when serious-minded adults decide to ignore that Scouting is a GAME and "focus on the outcome, goals, or vision," it usually involves short-changing the Patrol Leaders so that the adults can feel important. In other words "the ends justify the means" These adult efforts to short-circuit the Patrol Method are especially focused through the two "adulty" Methods: Adult Association and Leadership Development, with additional damage done to Scouting with the adulty interpretation of the Ideals of Scouting as offering an opportunity to block the Advancement Method. In a nutshell: "Adult Association" is shorthand for the powers that the adults took away from the Patrol Leaders and gave to the adults to make them feel important (BEFORE William Hillcourt was hired by the BSA) and "Leadership Development" is shorthand for the training that the adults took away from the Patrol Leaders and gave to the other Junior Leaders to make them feel important (AFTER William Hillcourt retired from the BSA). Much of what we now call "Adult Association" was deeply embedded in the BSA by the time that Hillcourt came along. Adults love Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review, so there was no way that Hillcourt was going to take that away from them to give Advancement back to the Patrol Leaders. So I think it is fair to say that: "Adult Association" was the major difference between Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method," and "Leadership Development" is the major difference between William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method" and the BSA's post 1972 "Patrol Method." Scouting is a GAME! In a perfect world Congress would mandate that the monopoly on Scouting that it granted the BSA be earned by forcing Scoutmasters to screw up school sports games, rather than screwing up the Game of Scouting with its "focus on the outcome, goals or vision." This would be simple enough. Any school sport in which boys "advance" toward a "goal" would be moderated by Wood Badge types. As a boy advances on a field, his "School Spirit" would be judged by a Scoutmaster referee. If the referee decides that he doesn't like the athlete's attitude, then the athlete's advancement would be delayed until the boy learns to better reflect "the man they are trying to build." For a "goal" to result in a "score" the athlete would have to complete a Scoutmaster Conference with a BSA trained Scoutmaster, and a Board of Review staffed by local BSA Troop Committees. All outdoor sports would be played in indoor Boy Scout uniforms created by a dress designer in 1980. To show the proper respect, this uniform would be neat and clean before an athlete is granted a BoR. Mud and grass-stained boys need not apply. The training of both coaches and athletes would be focused on the 1972 Wood Badge 11 Leadership Skills or the 21st Century Wood Badge Ken Blanchard skills rather than on specialized training. To paraphrase the BSA on the training of Patrol Leaders: In general, quarterback training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on football skills. The team will not rise and fall on the quarterback's ability to call offensive plays, throw to a receiver, hand off to a running back, or scramble, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill! ("In general, patrol leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft skills. The patrol will not rise and fall on the patrol leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill.") With BSA adults' attentions focused on spoiling sports by "first understanding the man they are trying to build, then building the kind of program that will allow that man to come out of the boy," Congress would mandate that Scouting (including the BSA's sissy core Outdoor Method) return to the way it was designed by Baden-Powell. A whole new generation of boys would then decide that "sports is gay" and would instead join Scouting for the adventure it offers in Patrols run by Patrol Leaders. Kudu

prairie writes: The question seems to be, can most troops operate under the patrol system under the current rules. It depends on how you define "rules" versus "common practices"! Yes, you can run a "Green Bar Bill" Troop within the current Advancement Requirement "rules," for instance, but you will want to rethink "common practices" carefully to do so. For instance, to practice Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method you need Patrol Leaders qualified to teach and to sign-off on Advancement requirements. Currently this is often done by adults or the Troop Guide because "Patrol Leader" is seen as a temporary position, an opportunity for the Scoutmaster to teach "leadership." The Patrol Leader then gets to practice "leadership" for six months or a year, then it is someone else's "turn" to be Patrol Leader and learn about "leadership." Term limits are often seen as a virtuous planned obsolesce with the goal of creating opportunities to teach "leadership" to new Patrol Leaders. In other words, the purpose of the Patrol Method now is as a proving ground for the 1972 Method of Scouting called "Leadership Development." Prior to 1972 the goal of training was teach Patrol Leaders the PRACTICAL SKILLS they needed to run independent Patrols, but there is no "rule" against including this now as supplemental training. To train your Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders in the Green Bar Bill Patrol Method, you will need to use William Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" course (see below). To this end it will also be necessary to design a training session for interested Scouters in the "History of the Patrol Method" and the "History of the Methods of Scouting" because Ken Blanchard Wood Badge advocates insist that the current Patrol Method is essentially the same as the one pioneered by William Hillcourt. This leads to confusion over the term "Patrol Method." I hope to put together such presentations for use in local University of Scouting history sessions (btw, what equipment do you all use to project images on classroom walls these days?) The thing that the "enforcer" types will object to most is Troop-level reversal of the damage done to the Patrol Method by the 1972 invention of "Leadership Development." This would begin with adopting Hillcourt's Six Methods of Scouting model rather than the BSA's current Eight Methods of Scouting. This way of looking at Scouting is just a thought-crime, but expect a spirited debate :-) Likewise if you really want to practice the Patrol Method, you must examine common practices such as Troop elections for SPL, for instance. In both B-P's "Patrol System" and William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method," the PATROL LEADERS RUN THE TROOP and the SPL serves at the PLC's pleasure. The rise of the power of the SPL coincides with the weakening of the power of Patrol Leaders through constant turnover and no practical traininng. So if the current BSA Handbooks say that the SPL is elected in a Troop election (the "Troop Method"), does this mean that Troop SPL elections are a "rule" in the same way that bold type in the Guide to Safe Scouting is a "rule"? Expect "feedback" in this area too :-) What I am pondering is a casual but dedicated society of scouters who subscribe wholeheartedly to the "old" Patrol Method and the rest of pre1970s scouting. Their purpose, to encourage and foster the Patrol Method in their own troops and to gently enlighten new Scouters to the value of the Patrol Method, all within the current structure. In the rest of the world this movement is called "Traditional Scouting." Traditional Scouting usually refers to an alternative association that uses Baden-Powell's version of Scouting, often referred to as "Baden-Powell Scouting." So if your goal is to return to pre-1972 values within the current BSA structure, consider a term that makes that distinction: "William Hillcourt Scouting," for instance. To this end a book would need to be written and distributed covering these core values, the cost to be low enough copies could be given to new Scouters, maybe as simple as a PDF file that could print off and staple into a pamphlet/booklet. The best Scouter Handbooks ever written are already available for $5-$15 each. Look carefully for the 3rd, 4th, or the 5th editions (and/or printing dates between 1936-1971) of used BSA Scoutmaster's handbooks, see: http://tinyurl.com/3cdjts An outline of the changing Methods of Scouting therein can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Perhaps we need a guide to Hillcourt's Scoutmaster handbooks that outlines how to apply them within the "letter of the law" of the current BSA program, but I think this can be done better in a Scouter.Com Forum devoted to ongoing dialogue on the subject of William Hillcourt because this will be mostly a matter of interpretation. This is not to be an alternative to Wood Badge, no beads, patches or pins to be worn, "training" would be less formal, mostly discussions with others like minded round the fire or cracker-barrel. We do need an alternative to Wood Badge because the Patrol Method is best learned by actually doing it and Scoutmasters need such practical training if they are to really understand the Traditional Patrol Method beyond mere "book-learning" and campfire chats. Keep in mind that the BSA does sometimes adopt successful unofficial local training courses. If a new Traditional training course leads to success in increasing membership in a couple of local Troops, for instance, expect interest on the local Council level. If an optional Council-level course proves to be successful (which admittedly is unlikely because non-required training is not usually very popular) then possibly regional testing of the course may happen. Sometimes this even leads to eventual national testing at Philmont. If the current trademark litigation over the term "Scouting" ever results in the deregulation of Scouting so that Scouting associations based on pre-1970s Scouting are allowed to compete openly with the BSA, the BSA may become especially interested in an already-existing Traditional William Hillcourt/Green Bar Bill Scouting movement within the ranks of its own membership. This could be a resource for a BSA product drawing from its own rich (but forgotten) traditions. and make changes small and only when overwhelmingly needed. This is perhaps the most important thing. In Traditional Scouting the program is a snapshot at a particular time, with changes limited to advances in 1) Heath and Safety; 2) Environmental Concerns (Leave no Trace); 3) Lightweight Camping Equipment (including material for Uniforms); and (in international Traditional Scouting movements) 4) National Variations in climate, native cultures, and relevant laws. A "Green Bar Bill" Traditional Scouting program would use August 1, 1965 (the date of William Hillcourt's retirement) as the "snapshot" date of the Patrol Method because it has been pointed out that POR's were added to Advancement requirements prior to the 1972 massacre. Such a program would be how use the Patrol Method as it existed in 1965 while following the BSA rules as they exist today. I would call this the Green Bar Patrol, but other names would work as well... The term "Green Bar Patrol" (GBP) has a specific meaning: It is William Hillcourt's "Patrol Leader Training" (PLT) Patrol, comprised of the Troop's Scoutmaster as the GBP Patrol Leader, the Troop's Senior Patrol Leader as the GBP Assistant Patrol Leader, and the Troop's Patrol Leaders, Assistant Patrol Leaders, (and other Junior Leaders if necessary to form a full Patrol) as the GBP Patrol Members. Once a month for six months the Scoutmaster models the behavior of a Patrol Leader leading a Patrol Meeting (usually on the same day as the PLC meeting), leading a Patrol Hike on the fifth month, and a Patrol Campout during the sixth month. This means that "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" teaches how to plan and conduct a Patrol Meeting by actually holding Green Bar Patrol Meetings; How to plan and conduct a Patrol Hike by actually holding a Green Bar Patrol Hike; and How to plan and conduct a Patrol Campout by actually holding a Green Bar Patrol campout. If you are interested in viewing this, I have revised Green Bar Bill's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" course so that the reading assignments correspond to the page numbers in the current BSA Patrol Leader's Handbook and Scoutmaster's Handbook, See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Would you join the "GBP", maybe pay a small one time fee to keep the server running, I'm not sure why you would need a server. A "William Hillcourt Scouting" or "Green Bar Bill" Forum at Scouter.Com would be the perfect place for discussion on the topic (given the Site Dedication to William Hillcourt). Likewise, I have gathered over 2,000 pages of pre-1972 material on Inquiry.Net (and its mirror site, Kudu.Net) to which I would be happy to add any relevant material. Given the more than five million page-views a year on Inquiry.Net (21,084 yesterday, for instance), there seems to be significant interest in pre-1970s Scouting material among BSA Scouters to justify further discussion of Prairie's ideas. Kudu

I don't know all the ins and outs of boy scout history, but I do have a copy of the 5th edition "Scouting for Boys" handbook printed in 1950. For second class, the requirements include having to cook several meals for yourself. For first class, the requirements include having to cook several meals for yourself and one other person. The handbook does not include any description or instructions for patrol cooking. The menu ideas, recipes, and equipment lists are all for a single person. So, it seems in 1950, patrol cooking wasn't a focus or a requirement, yet that was during the period of the Patrol Method, 22 years before Factory Scouting. Can you help me understand the discrepancy? Thanks for the interesting question! Patrol cooking was the norm for camping but by definition it was a group activity. The backwoods cooking and bivouac camping requirements for a single Scout (or for him and his buddy) were in preparation for a Scout's individual Journey, which was the final test for each Award in Scouting. The Second Class Journey was similar to our own "5 Mile Hike," but adult-free and usually required cooking. The First Class Journey was the first of the adult-free backpacking Journeys. It required a Scout to go on a 15 mile overnight journey alone or with a buddy and cook his own meals. At one time the BSA had a similar First Class requirement: "Make a round trip alone (or with another Scout) to a point at least seven miles away (14 miles in all), going on foot, or rowing a boat, and write a satisfactory account of the trip and things observed." The required Venturer Badge includes a Journey of at least 20 miles, on foot or by boat, with not more than 2 other Scouts. The route must be one with which the Scout is not familiar and should, if possible, include stiff country. Cook and sleep out, using only the gear carried in a rucksack. Older Scouts qualifying for the equivalent of Eagle were also encouraged to undertake a 50 mile Journey in wild country with no more than 5 Scouts, lasting four days with the three nights all spent at different campsites. Some editions of Scouting for Boys did include Patrol cooking requirements, but if you can imagine sending the Second Class Scouts in your own Troop on a 15 mile journey with no adults as the final test of their First Class skills, you can understand why the focus in the requirements leading up to that would be on their individual camping skills, even though your camping is done in Patrols. Kudu

Before the hippies took over the BSA in 1972 and destroyed William Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting, "Silent Scout Signals" was part of the Game of Scouting. As William Hillcourt notes: "A certain amount of drill is necessary for getting the Troop and Patrols into position for various activities and for moving the Troop with a semblance of order and smartness. "For this Scouting does not resort to military drill, but has developed its own technique, easily learned and considered by the boys as a game rather than a drill." See The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/drill.htm See also links for: Informal Leadership Signals Dan Beard's Stalking Gesture Signals Scout Stave Positions: "Manual of the Staff" Kudu