ASM59

One more thought... Two days after we had joined the new Troop, I went to our local Scout Service Center to buy new numbers for the uniforms. The DE for my new District, who I know from Summer Camp, was in the store and saw me. He already knew that I had switched Units, and asked if I had tried to contact my UC. I told him what had happened, and he said that he would have sent one of his UC to help us out if he had known about the problem. He said that he would have come over himself to help if one of his UC's couldn't. So, it seems that there are good and bad within the same Council; at least he made it sound like his UC's would have helped. ASM59

Hello, Some on the forums here know that my son and I switched to a new Troop at the end of 2006. I was the last active leader, an ASM with an inactive SM who would get angry if he didn't agree with decisions that I made or allowed the boys to make. Note; by inactive, I mean he went on no outings and attended no meetings for about a year. We also had committee problems which meant that I could not get help there either. So, at the end of 2005 I contacted our UC by phone. He agreed to go out for a cup of coffee with me some weekend to discuss the problems. He said to e-mail him with a good day and time to meet. He never responded to my e-mails. So, I called him again, but everytime I called, there was no answer. I left messages, but never received a return call. This went on for 5 months. Then I saw him at a school function, where he acknowledged getting all my e-mails and voice-mails, and appologized for not calling me back. We agreed to meet that next weekend for coffee (set a day and time), but he did not show. I called and e-mailed for another two months and then contacted the DC. Guess what? No help there either. I finally ran into the UC at Summer Camp and he told me that there was nothing that he could do to help our situation. He never listened to our problems, but made a judgement call that he could not help. Sorry for the long story, but as you can see, our UC was not very competent at all! By the way, I am in a new Troop now and that Troop is in a different district. ASM59

Yes, I do realize that there are many plants with 3 leaves, but thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps to be more accurate, we try to teach the boys to be aware of the plants around them. If they are moving through the woods (hopefully on a trail) and they happen to catch a three leaved plant out of the corner of their eye, avoid it. It's more of an initial reaction type thing. Hopefully they know the basic shape and size of the poison ivy plant on the ground and what the vine looks like. So, to be more accurate; if it has 3 leaves, avoid it initially, until you have had a chance to really look at it to be sure that it is not poison ivy. Many of the boys have a good idea of what the plant looks like, but may not be 100% sure. I hope that helps to understand better what I like to see the boys taught. ASM59

HiLo, One other question. I've heard about "Bunny Bashing" as an activity that sometimes youth participate in out in the bush, well at least something that they used to do in the past. Have you ever heard about it? Are the bunnies still a problem? ASM59

Hello, Lots of good responses in this thread. I agree; get the boys in the field to identify the plants. Hopefully someone who really knows the plants will be with the boys so they will not get into it by mistake. Like already mentioned; I know that here in Illinois, poison ivy leafs can vary quite a bit. I don't know if it like that everywhere, but it is very true in this area. Because of that we teach the boys how to identify the plant by it's most common leaf shape(s), but also teach them to stay away from anything with 3 leafs and only touch it if you are 100% sure it's not poison ivy. If you do touch it and you're not sure, wash (with soap) as soon as you can. Teaching and reteaching this is very common. If you are with me on a hike and I see poison ivy, you can bet I'll be pointing it out to everyone. If I see it again with a different leaf shape, you can count on my pointing out the the new plant and point out the variation. ASM59

Welcome, While I've never been to Australia, my brother does live in Alice Springs, NT. He and his family were there for 3 years, spent a couple of years back in the U.S., and now have been back in Australia for the past 2 years. I'm sure Alice Springs is quite different than Melbourne, as far as climate is concerned. I hope you enjoy the forums here, I'd like to learn some about your Scouting program. ASM59

onehour..., So, if this "go getter" completes his 1st Class requirements before the next COH, will they make him wait to get his 1st Class recognition at the following COH? I see only the potential to demoralize the lad and make him feel like he shouldn't have bothered to try so hard. Reward him and make him feel special for trying so hard and accomplishing what he has... ASM59

"I am the "unofficial" Chartered Organization Representative, which provides me with virtually no "pull"." Are you or are you not the Charter Org Rep? If you are, this answers all your problems. The Troop belongs to the Charter Organization. If you are the rep, you have the right to dictate how you expect the program to run; the philosophy. If the SM and CC are not on board with your philosophy, you have the authority to replace them. This may open up a new set of problems for you, but it can be done. If you have to get a new SM and CC, make sure they get training. If you keep the old SM and CC, make sure they understand the new philosophy and again get them some training. Good Luck, ASM59

Yes, the dreaded substitutes. Don't use them, so the Scouts know not to use them. They seem to be more of a temptation to use, because they are accepted by Mom's and Dad's and Teachers more so than the real thing. "I'm sorry" When I hear it, my immediate Pavlovian response is to say, "Show me your sorry by your actions". This response is from hearing "I'm sorry" from my own kids way too many times... ASM59

In my book, it is all about; consistency, being a role model, and respect. First is consistency. Some of the responses here seems to say that this type of language is OK if it is used at home or somewhere other than Scouting or Church. If we are trying to encourage some level of integrity by teaching the Scout Law, then we need to teach that this language is either not appropriate at all or that it is appropriate. So far, I either hear opinions that state it is not appropriate at all (ever) or that it is not appropriate for Scouting, Church, or in the presence of those who find it offensive. If theres one thing that youth can see immediately its hypocrisy. Giving the impression that this language is appropriate somewhere else, but not at Scouting functions is hypocritical and teaches that there are appropriate places for inappropriate behavior. Being a role model is very important. How many would be willing to do as OGE does? He has set himself up as the standard for allowable language within the Troop. We need more Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters who will set the example when it comes to their behavior. This year at Summer Camp I visited 3 other camp sites. In each camp site I heard what I consider very inappropriate language coming from the mouth of adults within hearing of Scouts. I questioned one Scoutmaster on this and he said, Its OK, these are our older Scouts. We allow them to hang out with the Adults and since they are older we dont have to watch our language or subject matter. For the method he described to work, OGE must have earned some respect among the youth in his Unit. I know this because it has worked well in my experience. I have told Scouts that they can use any word that they hear me use. Some of the youth I work with have been with me in Scouts for 9 years (they were in my Webelos den and now in Boy Scouts). When we address this issue, I will call on one of those Scouts who know me best, and ask how many times they have heard me cuss on a Scout outing? After they answer, I explain that our families are friends and that we do things out side of Scouting together. I then ask how many times they have heard me cuss outside of Scouting? Fortunately, they are always able to say truthfully that they have never heard it come from my lips. When it comes to seeing the Scouts self-discipline in this area Ive seen it many times. I have heard Scouts say things like, Doug doesnt use language like that and will not like it or Dude, youre going to get Doug upset. I know it is because of consistency, the relationship that has been built with the boys and the respect that they have for me that this has not been a big problem in the past. ASM59 (Doug)

Welcome! I really would like to add my 2 cents here, but I am also of the opinion that we need more information. Let me summarize some of the questions that have been asked: What kind of response did you get when bringing your concerns to the Scoutmasters? How about the committee? How do they justify the current way things are being run? Does your existing Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster(s) act like they want to be in their positions? Is there an ego problem with these leaders (gotta be done "my way")? Have you talked to your COR (Charter Organization Representative)? If so, what kind of response do you get? Does your COR understand how things are supposed to be run? Have you talked to anyone at the Council or District level regarding the situation? Let us know... ASM59

John... Yes, you are correct. It would have been a very inexpensive solution for BSA Suppy to have provide the stickers, not to mention putting forth some "good faith" to help the volunteers in the trenches and avoid mistakes such as Pete's... ASM59

I almost hate to point this technicality out after saying that I thought this requirement is silly at best but: Per BSA National: Beginning January 1, 2006, an additional requirement will be added to the requirements for First Class rank in Boy Scouting. Scouts beginning their First Class requirement work after this date must complete the new requirement. Scouts working on First Class requirements prior to this date will have until June 30, 2006 to complete First Class rank without completing the new requirement. When asked to clarify this, the National BSA Office responded: A boy who is working on Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class (under the First Class Within a Year) is working on First Class. He had until the June deadline to complete First Class or would have to complete under the new requirement. So, the bottom line is that if we are following the guidelines, any Scout starting his requirements on or after January 1, 2006 or completing his First Class after June 30, 2006 should have completed the new requirement (new #11). Apparently this is regardless of what version book the Scout Shop sold to the Scout or how long ago the Scout purchased the book. ASM59

Ed, I agree that this requirement is silly at best, which is why I like having our Scouts use the on-line e-card to fulfill the requirement. Its easy and does not require much time. But what I find is that most of the time the requirement is verifiable. In about half of the cases, soon after the invitation is made, the boy shows up at a meeting with the Scout that invited him; so we get to meet the invited boy. In other cases where the invitee does not come to a meeting, the Scout making the invite has shown us a print-out of the e-mail that he has written and sent to make sure the e-card was received and to make sure the invited boy knows how to join. And finally, many times a parent will come in with their Scout to tell us that their son made the attempt, whether a verbal invitation or by e-card invitation. ASM59

BSA website: http://www.thescoutzone.org/ Has an electronic greeting that boys can send to their friends to invite them to give Scouting a try. Just click on "Tell A Friend" at the bottom to get to the form. There are those who say BSA has made this available to help boys with the new requirement. I personally accept this as a way for Scouts to tell another boy about Boy Scouting. I do make sure to ask if they told the boy how to join. In some cases, I encourage them to e-mail them information about joining and then to ask their friend if they received the information. I would let the advancement go as it is. It was an honest mistake, but I would discuss the fact that a mistake was made with this Scout and encourage him to at least make a contact as shown above... ASM59

gwd, Lots of good responses. As noted, perhaps there could have been an explaination to the parents regarding what was going on during the outing. An explaination regarding how letting the boys "fail" helps them to learn could have helped. But that's hind-site and I'm sure you didn't even think of it as a potential problem at the time. (I think I'll include a talk to help the parents understand the program better at our future Troop/Web outings) With regard to your specific question and your specific case: I do not think that you need to say anything disparaging at all. It sounds like this parent already suspects that there is something not quite right; afterall you said she is running her son's patrol. In the future if she asks your opinion, you could simply say that you're not familiar with any details from the other Troop, but then you could ask her what she thinks based on what she understands about how a Troop is supposed to run. Like I said, she may already suspect that there is something wrong, but just needs someone to talk to about it. I don't see the harm in letting her express her concern. You could suggest that she go to SM specific training so she can better help the Troop. You may find that she is ready to make a change, but encourage her to make sure it is a change that her son wants to make as well... ASM59

Hello all, First, I want to thank all of you for your advise over the past several months and your consoling comments. It is great to have knowledgeable folks like you available to share and consult with regarding these scouting issues/problems/successes. My son and I joined a Troop in a neighboring town just this week. We visited for 4 weeks to get an idea of how the meetings were run. I interviewed the SM a couple of ASM's the COR and 3 committee members to make sure that things seemed to be running properly. My son was on staff at summercamp with two of the older boys in the Troop and we have been welcomed without any problem. There are two other boys from the old Troop that also visited and joined at the same time. There are other Scouts (6 of them) that say they want to follow us to this Troop, but I am advising that they look at other Troops as well and that if they do join, not to do so because we did, but because they feel that it is the best choice. Thanks for your dedication and service to the youth in your units... ASM59

Good Day, In our area are many old strip mines that have been converted into sportsmans clubs. We belong to one of those clubs that has swimming, fishing, hunting, camping and more available on the grounds. The swimming area is a lake that was once a strip mine. Prior to my involvement in Boy Scouts, I had the opportunity to work with two boys who were friends of my son. Neither one of them could swim and I found out that Mom and Dad could not swim either and would not even get into the water. The fact that mom and dad didnt get into the water instilled a fear of deep water in the boys. Certainly the deep water is bad when you know that you cannot rescue you son if he has trouble, so you teach them to stay away from the rope marking the deep water. My son wanted desperately for his friends to be able to join him in the deep water and I noticed that the boys could swim, but would never go into water over their heads. (It sounds like your nephew is in this situation). I asked permission to help the boys with their swimming and received an enthusiastic thank you from the parents who really wanted to know that their sons could be safe in deep water. In one day I was able to help both boys overcome their fear and they were out in the deep water of the lake playing raft tag with the rest of the kids. Since that time, I have helped five more boys overcome their fear of water (3 were Boy Scouts who needed this for advancement). In each case they were boys whose parents either did not swim or had a fear of the water themselves. Also, in every case it only took an hour or two before they were comfortable enough to attempt to swim in deep water (each of them could already swim a basic stroke, but were simply afraid of the deep water). Heres how I have done this: In each case I have known the boy and their families well it all starts with trust. You start by holding him up in the water around the waist and ask him if he really trust you and begin walking slowly toward deeper water. There have been times that as we walked for the deep water that some have struggled to get free. If a boy does that you must walk back toward the shallow water until you have gained his confidence; asking things like, Would I do anything that would really hurt you? and continuing to talk about trust. Once you get to the deeper water, make sure you are holding onto him firmly and that you have a good foothold on level ground, but you should be in water that is at least 8-10 inches over the boys head. Tell him that the human body is naturally buoyant (explain what that means if necessary). Tell him that the average person, with a lung full of air and without moving around will float with the water somewhere about the mouth or nose. Tell him that youd like to demonstrate this by having him take a deep breath and lowering him slowly into the water; stress that he will not sink like a rock. Tell him that you will loosen your hold on him but will keep you hands very near incase he gets worried. Make sure he knows that you will not move and that youll keep hands and arms within his reach at all times. If necessary stress the whole trust thing some more. Once he agrees to this, you can lower him into the water. Youll sense when he is about at the level that hell float and you can begin loosening your hold on him. If he panics, hold onto him again and work on reassuring him some more. I have always been able to get them to allow me to do this; the longest it has taken to get them to allow me to let go was 20 to 25 minutes, most have done it in the first couple of tries. Now, he knows that he will not sink like a rock, but you still need to help him gain more and more confidence. You can do this by letting go of him with his chin about a foot above the water. Keep your hands near by, but after a few times and helping him understand that by kicking his feet that he can come back to the surface, hell be more comfortable with this. Hell learn how to come back to the surface and will even begin learning how to tread water. Then (assuming he can do some elementary swimming strokes) let go of him and take just a couple of steps back and have him swim to you. He will get more and more comfortable the more you do this. Keep increasing the distance and before you know it, hell be swimming more confidently. Always stay near him when he ventures out in the deep water for the first few times. I have even notified the life guard when a boy is making his first attempt at swimming to the raft and theyll either stand at the dock and watch or actually swim out with us and a floatation device. Like I said, this has worked every time Ive tried it. The last two were boys whose parents had heard from other parents about my helping boys with swimming. They think I am a miracle worker, but the boys already knew how to swim. I only helped them overcome their fear You may be able to use this technique with your nephew ASM59

Hello Webscout, I'll agree with some of GB's critiques of your site; it is pretty busy and would take some getting used to to know where on the page to look for what you want. I designed and published a basic web-site for our Troop. We (the SM & ASM's) decided that the most common reason that a parent would visit our site would be to see the meeting and outing schedules. The page was very simple with two panes. The right pane was our "Upcoming Events" page. Here we listed the next few outings and dates of those outings in a medium-large font size with links to more information and permission slips right under the title of the event. In the left pane we had links to different pages for the Troop and to our Council's page. Having planned how to make if most useful, and promoting it for two years in Troop meetings and COH's, we still had only one of our boys from the Troop and Zero parents who used the site. So, how do you get them to use it? I had some thoughts and actually tried them, but my job requirements made it difficult for me to follow through. Needless to say, they didn't work because of that. One of the things I wanted to try was to have hidden links on the site to pages of information that only those who found the hidden links would know. Anyone who found the information would get a prize (candy bar, sharpening stone, ...). Another thing that did work, while I had time to do it, was again to have hidden messages and links buried in the site. These links would be to pages to help the Scout "be prepared" for the next meeting. The Scout that was totally prepared based on what was hidden on the site would get a prize like a new pocket knife, flashlight or other camp gadget. The Scouts never knew when the pages would be updated or at which meeting I would question them on their preparedness. So, if they did not visit the pages before the meeting, they would not know the latest thing that I'd be looking for or the latest skill that I'd want to see demonstrated to consider them prepared. Typically, it would take 3 or 4 meetings before there was a Scout that would win the prize. Once the prize was won, I'd let the Scouts know that over the next few weeks I'd be updating the preparedness skills and items on the web-site and then at some future meeting I'd begin quizzing them on preparedness again. Here's an example of a preparedness skill that I had on our site. It was linked by a hidden link on the homepage. You could only find it by clicking on different areas of the page until you found it. You could also hit "print preview" and see the link. Anyway here's the example: http://www.60408.com/scouts/polaris.htm At the meeting, I'd show the first picture and see if any of the boys could find polaris. The boys that knew how to find it, were prepared. After three or four questions, we were usually done and had eliminated everyone or found the Scout that was "prepared". ASM59

Good Day, As others have stated, we always try to work with the Webelos on an Activity or two while they are with us on a campout. It seems that Forester is an activity that our Webelos leaders have felt uncomfortable teaching, so they have asked for the Troop's help. The document at the link below was put together by our Troop to help with the Forestry Activity. We will typically have one or two boys "teach" each requirement. We typically do the requirements that are in bold print. Only 5 are required but we like to take them on a hike as well. On that hike I will typically point out 6 or more native tree species and we can discuss some of the uses of those trees. http://www.60408.com/scouts/misc/Webelos-Pins/Foresty/Forester.pdf ASM59

Sunday, at our Church's youth meeting, our Youth Minister asked the question, "How many of you have a MySpace account?" Over 90% of them raised their hands. His next question was, "How many of you have more than one MySpace account?" About 15% of them raised their hands. He said that he had information that 2 of every three MySpace accounts are "fake". In other words, they have incorrect ages listed or other fictitious information; you cannot trust who you are talking to on MySpace. He said that many of the "fictitious accounts" are set up at the same time as the "parent approved account". So, your parents can check your MySpace account, but know nothing about your other account(s). It's on these other accounts (with fictitious information) that the "real" information is shared. My 14 year old niece, was recently caught with a second account. Her parents thought everything was OK, because they monitored her MySpace account. What they didn't know is that she had another account where she was listed as being 17 years old. She had an "on-line relationship" with a 19 year old boy. She had his picture and he had hers, they knew where each other lived and had each others cell phone numbers. She got caught by her mother who noticed a strange number on the Cellular bill. It took a while, but they discovered what was going on and suspended her computer privileges. They also called the local police department and asked if this could be a case of a sexual predator. The police assured them that this boy had no record of any such thing and the officer that she talked to went over to talk to the boy. He really had no idea that she was only 14 years old and told the police officer that he would not have any further contact with her. It is scary, make sure you monitor your kids on these accounts. As was mentioned there are programs available for parents. Some will monitor for key words that are typed and will log a string of text so you can see the context in which that word or words were typed. Keep an eye on your kids; they're risk takers! ASM59

gwd..., Good questions. I think the reason "Duty to God" or the 12th point of the Scout Law, "reverent" gets so much play on these forums is because they are simply controversial. These topics push the buttons that set of the "Politically Correct" and "your intolerant" alarms. Now, having said that, I'll answer your other questions. Yes, the other points of the Law and Duty are covered regularly in meetings and Scoutmaster Conferences. It is very important for the boys to understand their duty to their country and how to apply the other points of the Scout Law to their lives. Yes, much of their duty to country will come later in life, but we can help set the foundation for patriotism and their sense of responsibility to their country. (gets up on his soapbox...) For me, if one it trying his best in the area of Duty to God and being reverent, all the other points of the Law and Oath fall right into place. This is true of those who understand reverence and duty to God as I do and as I believe it is taught in Scripture. One following God leads to one being; trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, and clean. I regularly share this with Scouts as a part of the program and in SM conferences. In fact, once a year, our Chaplain Aid turns over his Sunday devotion to me to give a talk about the Scout Law in the Bible. Yes, parents are aware of this and have absolutely no problem with our sharing this with our Scouts. In fact, many parents who don't regularly go to Church have either asked or accepted invitations for their boys to attend our Church's Youth Group meetings, where I have the privilege of being the Small Group leader for these same boys. (gets down from soapbox...) ASM59

Yes, something should be done, but I don't think that it needs to be anything too drastic. Perhaps as mentioned, the CC or COR should request that the CM review YP training with an emphasis on the fact that such behavior is not appropriate for Scouting activities. Now, having said that, I am all about having fun, but I am also a self-appointed "anti-wedgie activist". Yes, in certain locations and under certain conditions I might be able to see humor in this activity, except for the case of my friend Brian; when we were 12 years old he was down by the creek waiting for me to show up. He encountered some High Schoolers, one of whom gave him the ever dreaded atomic wedgie. Now theres more to the story, but Ill spare you the gruesome details. Suffice it to say, that a stay at the hospital was involved because of that wedgie. Needless to say, wedgies are not allowed under any circumstances when I am present. If a wedgie is attempted; all involved are subject to the above story about Brian. Depending on who the audience is; theyll even get the details. Your CM would have gotten all the gruesome details if Id have been there. ASM59

Hello, I'll agree with the majority opinion here (including Eagle's corrected bi-polar response). By all means, accept these as Troop outings. If the outing is Troop planned, available for all in the Troop, and follows all BSA rules as you've indicated, then there is no reason not to count these as outings toward 1st/2nd class advancement requirements. Of course, as Gags says above; only count the outing for those attending the "Troop organized" rides/hikes. Boys who go on their own with the MB Counselor and skip the Troop outing, have done just that; "skipped the Troop outing". Now to get picky... There is nothing in the Hiking or Cycling MB that require that the Hikes/Rides be done with the MB Councelor. Only in the case of the Cycling MB do you have to take one short ride with the counselor to demonstrate that you understand basic laws and safety. Now, having said that, as a Cycling MB counselor, I prefer that the Scouts taking this MB make the rides with me. If I were presented with a situation that a Scout gave me reports of all his necessary rides, I'd want to discuss those rides with him, but I would be compelled to accept the rides toward his completion of the MB. ASM59(This message has been edited by ASM59)

I agree that you should not make a new policy or make changes because of one mother's misunderstanding; and I really do mean misunderstanding. I like what Anne in Mpls said about taking her out for coffee (or have her over for dinner) with a couple of other Adults who you can trust to stand behind you. I think the biggest thing to discuss is just what the Scouts accomplished during the day. Make sure that she understands that the Ranger was appreciative and complimentary with regard to the amount of WORK that the Scouts had done that day. I would also make sure that she understands that this is NOT a part of normal outings and was only done to make the work day a success by getting more Scouts to participate. You could also point out that it was a well deserved break after all the work of the day. Good Luck, ASM59