ASM59

Good Day, This has been a peeve of mine for quite some time. I am not Catholic, Muslim or any of the other called out groups in this tread. I am a non-denominational Protestant Christian and go to a non-denominational Protestant Church. I have obligations and so does my son at our Church. These are not the so called Holy Obligations but things like teaching Sunday School or helping in the Nursery and so forth. I do not take my faith lightly and believe that my place is in Church on Sunday morning when our Church conducts their normal weekly service. To this end, my son and I traditionally would leave a campout late on Saturday evening if the Troop was staying over another night. I later got feedback from Troop leaders that this is allowing a Scout to get out of doing his part to break camp on Sunday morning. There are some who actually believe that we only did this to get out of having to break camp with the others. The Troop that I am in now doesnt have a hard time with our leaving early at all. They do not offer a Scout Sunday service when they are camping a second night and understand a Scouts or his parents feeling that they need to be in Church on Sunday. After all a Scout is Reverent. I know this means something different to many, but to me it means giving God the right place in my life. One of the ways I apply this is by attending and serving during our Churchs weekly meeting. ASM59

Hello, I don't know if what I'm about to add to this will help but here I go... If you look across Christianity, there are many issues that separate denominations. In fact, different denominations exist because people within those denominations believe that their understanding/interpretation of scripture is the most accurate. So, from that standpoint, you can understand how a parent might think that their child could be "screwed-up" by teachings from someone of another "faith"/denomination. If you really care about your beliefs, then you have chosen a church based on that churches doctrine and you probably don't appreciate someone teaching something different to you children. Now, having said that, in my former Troop I had Catholics, Baptists, Lutherns, Independent Christian, and Mormon faiths represented in the boys. When approving messages (and yes I had to approve any boy-lead messages) I'd always make sure that the message didn't step on any denominational "hot topics". For example, telling the story of Joseph and his faithfulness and tying that into our personal integrity crosses denominational barriers and would not step on anyone's feet. I know a lot about Christian denominations and what beliefs separate them, but I did struggle a bit with my 3 Mormon Scouts, so from time to time, I'd check with their father. Man, you talk about being appreciative; he and his wife were always very supportive and appreciative of my trying to be sensitive to how they wanted to bring up their boys. Parents who understand Christianity or Judism understand that it is the parent's place to train their children spiritually. So, the bottom line here is that people can feel like someone is messing with their children when they try to teach something that might differ from their Church's understanding of scripture. In my opinion, this is why we need to have Chaplain Aides working closely with an adult. If for no other reason than the comfort level of the parents who may worry. ASM59

Hello Jean, Glad to hear that you found the Scouter.com web-site. Welcome to the forums... ASM59

Hey Alex, Good job, and welcome to the forums. I look forward to your input on topics, so don't be afraid to comment... ASM59

Bill, Note: I am not a doctor, nor have I ever played one on TV, but my wife is a nurse and First Aid MB Counselor. I tend to agree that it should be clarified if there is a real anxiety disorder problem here. If there is and it is being treated by counseling or Psychiatric care/medication then perhaps parents could speak to the counselor and/or Psychiatrist for suggestions or medication. [My daughter is on medication for some social anxiety problems. She modifies here dosage depending on what she is doing during the day. If she is sitting at home, shell take one pill. If she has to go to school or work, shell take two. She says that it works.] Not that we are in the business of telling Dad or the Doctor how to medicate the boy, but Im sure that if he is under treatment, that the Doctor will know what to do to help. One other thing to be sure of is that the Scout is drinking plenty of water and using the toilet. Not getting enough fluids can cause bad headaches and upset stomach. Likewise, not using the toilet (usually because it stinks) can cause the same symptoms. The second condition usually takes a couple of days to occur and probably is not the problem if it is only a weekend campout. But I used to have a Scout that got really bad headaches as soon as he was just a bit dehydrated. He would still be sweating, and his eyes could still tear-up; so he was not severely dehydrated. His first 6-8 months in Boy Scouts, he would get sick on every campout and it would always start at about bedtime. Once I realized what was happening, I would always make sure that he drank at least 8 oz of water sometime after we got to the campsite and were all set-up. At about 9:00 Id have him drink half a bottle of Gatorade (about 10-12 oz.). For the most part, his headaches stopped, but he had to be watched closely, because hed get busy having fun the next day and forget to drink enough. He is now almost 16 years old and pretty much manages this on his own now; he even brings his own Gatorade now. ASM59

Excellent point Randy. After all is said and done, I guess if the hazing issue can be stopped (or found to be non-existent), then either Troop could be a possibility depending on where each of the boys wants to go. However, what ever hot_foot (or other parents of the cross-over Webelos) can do to help the Troop program would be of benefit for either Troop. Sometimes someone coming in with some new ideas can help to change the course of an organization. Perhaps, setting the example of getting trained, would help to inspire/motivate existing Troop#2 adults to get some training themselves. Perhaps some fresh ideas about how to move Troop#1 to more of a boy-led program could be of benefit there. ASM59

Eagle, Yes, as hot_foot has pointed out, the spelunking adventures are simply overnight campouts with what sounds like professionally led tours/exploration. So, with this clarification, I agree that this activity is OK and sounds like the young ones would enjoy it. With regard to the backpacking I pointed out that the difficulty of the trip needs to be considered. I agree whole-heartedly with your position on backpacking and didn't mean to sound so one-sided. It is important that younger Scouts are exposed to backpacking on an age-appropriate level. I had much more information, conditions, and disclaimers in my original post and deleted them to keep the post under 2 pages. Two of the things that I deleted that perhaps should have stayed in: - I wanted to suggest that hot_foot speak to the adults of Troop#1 as well to clarify their position on everything from the bullying to what seems like "adult-led" style. - I wanted to explain that all of my conclusions are based on the limited information given in the original post. BTW, I also agree very much with your observation that our own personal history/background colors our interpretation of terms and circumstances. For example, I was on a trail where a Troop was somewhere in the middle of a 25 mile hike with full packs in 95 degree heat. The adults on hand were 21 and 18 year old ASM's, pushing the boys to go on even though some said they were getting sick. They had 15 Scouts 2 of whom were 11 year olds and 3 of whom were 12 year olds. Two of these young Scouts were severely dehydrated when my wife and I happend on them. As my wife, a nurse, was checking out one of the 11 year olds, the other sick Scout collapsed in my arms - out cold - and it scared me to death. An ambulance ride and short hospital stay later, this Scout was fine, but this is probably why I had such a one-sided initial conclusion regarding the backpacking. Does this new information change which Troop I'd rather see my son in? I don't think so, but it would really depend on my personal interview with the Troop leaders of both Troops and who's willing to make some practical changes. Thanks for your observations, ASM59

Hot_foot, I'm leaning toward going with Troop#2, but only after clarifying a few things with adult leaders. I would ask them if they know that paint ball is not an approved of activity withing the Boy Scout program. It could be lack of training as pointed out. You did say that there is a broad range of ages and that they seem to be more boy led, so that's why I'd favor this Troop. By the way, the only thing that you mention that is an inappropriate activity is the paintball outings. As for Troop #1, I'd have a hard time accepting hazing especially hazing described as bullying. Even more disturbing is that the adult leadership is most likely trained and should know better. From your description, it seems that the activities that they are doing are more geared towards those older Scouts, and I'd be concerned about the younger Scouts dropping out because either the activities are too difficult, or they are excluded from participation. For example, when you mention spelunking, I think of wild cave exploration (not your standard cement pathway guided tours). A wild cave being a cave that has not had its passages modified. Tours/exploration of these types of caves are only for Scouts 14 years old or older (G2SS). Also, backpacking can be for older Scouts depending on the difficulty of the trek, but even shorter trips can be difficult for the younger boys. Don't let their "well funded" status effect your decision... Troop 1 - 3 strikes - hazing, adults led, program geared toward older Scouts Troop 2 - 1 strike, bases loaded, Webelos up to bat - paintball outing (training may just solve the problem) ASM59

Wow, I'm suprised that you had so much trouble with transfering to another Council. We had a boy join our Troop that had moved from Wichita, KS. I contacted his old Council and they faxed a copy of his Advancement Report to me and mailed a disk with his ScoutNet data to our local Council. Our Council accepted that information as valid and accurate. 16 months later this boy sat at his Eagle BOR and had absolutely no problem getting his Eagle. ASM59

One more thought, I think that there must always be a Blue Card or some other paperwork to verify that a MB was earned. I know that when we turn in advancement paperwork with MB's on it, that a copy of either the Council's portion of the Blue Card or a copy of the paperwork showing that the MB was earned is always attached and I believe that it must be attached inorder for the Council to enter it as completed. Every MB that we have had completed at either a MB University or at a Summer Camp always either has a Blue Card or a print out with a MB Counselor's signature or Council Summer Camp stamp. If there is not a Blue Card for the Scout to keep with his records, then a copy of the print out is made for him to keep in his records. ASM59

Joe, Never had it happen specifically, but I believe this is one of those areas that varies dependant on the Council/District rules. I just finished talking to our District Advancement Chair person, with regard to a Scout that is very close to Eagle. He has lost a few "Blue Cards" and one Rank Card for Star. She said that as long as it is recorded on the official advancement record of the Council that he obtained these MB's and Rank, then there would be no problem and no discussion regarding it. We have just reorganized from 3 districts to 2 districts and have a different Advancement Chair now. I had this same discussion with the Advancement Chair from the previous District earlier in the year and the opinion was different. He said that we would need to go back and recreate all the advancement cards and blue cards with the original SM signatures and MB Counselor signatures. The hope would have been that we could find the origninal MB Counselors to do this, but at least two of the MB's were earned at an out of Council Summer Camp in a neighboring State. It was expained that if the Scout took the MB again, then the dates would not line up with when Star and Life ranks were obtained and would call into question the validity of those ranks being awarded when they were. You see, there was a difference in opinion within the same Council in this case with regard to whether the Blue Card is even needed. At least in the opinion of our new District Advancement Chair, your argument would hold up... ASM59

Raisin..., I know homeschoolers and I know their dedication to their children and to "raisinemright". I'm assuming that most or all of the boys in your son's patrol are home schooled with dedicated parents. If the parents have their boys in Scouts, they they must really "buy-into" the program, and it doesn't suprise me that they are active/involved parents. The involvement of the parents is key to their boy's attendance and success. Keep up the good work. ASM59

I don't know how this applies, but the last 4 years of summer camps that I attended (two different Council camps) required that all leaders held a current YPT card. Current was defined as within the last 12 months. The on-line YPT is great. I can whip through the training in just a few minutes and do so once per year. ASM59

Welcome, I look forward to your input. ASM59

Lisa, The most important thing that I think most Webelos parents are not prepared for is exactly what the Boy Scout Program is and how it operates; you know aims and methods kind of thing. If I could do my Webelos 2 den transition again, I'd take the parents out to our Council campground without their kids, form a patrol and go through a typical campout weekend with them - almost like Scoutmaster Outdoor Training. Now to do this I would have had to borrow the Troop trailer and maybe the Scoutmaster for the weekend, but I think we could have accomplished a lot toward teaching them just what the Boy Scout program is and how it can benefit their sons. Realistically, I don't know if we could have pulled something like this off, but I can dream, right? But really, maybe we can brainstorm here about how to help parents of Webelos to understand and "buy into" the whole program. I think that is key. Most boys who quit Scouts in the first year have parent who really don't care about whether they are in Scouts or not. I think the hard sell needs to be to the parents. From the boys perspective if you can keep them in for the first 12-18 months, they'll be around for a while longer. Especially if they make First Class by then. I'm not one to necessarily push advancement, but the boys that are advancing tend to want to advance more and stay around. Again, most of this depends on parents being "on-board" with the program. Another thing that I think is very important is Summer Camp. If a boy transistions in February (or later in the Spring) to a Boy Scout Troop and does not go to Summer Camp, it is my experence that most if not all will not stay. Getting them to Summer Camp their first year seems to help them acclimate to the troop and feel connected to their Patrol / Troop. This is another sell for the parents. They must be convinced that their "baby boy" will be OK for a week away from home and that the $200 or so is money well spent. This hard sell could start in Webelos and continue after they join the Troop. Well, those are my thoughts for now... Anyone else want to take some Webelos parents camping??? ASM59

True service is not given with a price tag or expecting something back. Several years ago, my son was Den Chief for a Den of Webelos 1 Scouts and their Den Leader (mom of one of the Scouts). We worked very closely with them for two years and even hauled our Troop trailer to two of their Den campouts so they'd have cooking gear and such. My son and one or two other Boy Scouts stayed out there with them and taught their naturalist & forester activity pins. The Troop also invited them to 4 outdoor events and several meetings. In the end, the whole den went to a neighboring town's Troop. I have the best relationship now with that group, and it was my son that reminded me when I was upset, that it wasn't about getting them in our Troop as much as just helping them to understand what Boy Scouts is all about and helping them to want to go forward in Scouting. They are happy there and progressing in their advancements. It was worth the effort if it kept them interested in Scouting. I'm not perfect, sometimes I need a reminder, like my son gave me. But I'm trying to do this better by intentionally teaching other how to serve. I'm teaching my Scouts and others how to serve willingly, gladly, and without expecting anything in exchange. Felling used because of things like my story above causes resentment, anger, and ill-will. True service changes lives and attitudes. ASM59

Hello, I like what Barry had to say. There is a reciprocal benefit to the Troop for the services of the Den Chief; leadership development of the Den Chief. But even if that were not the case, are we doing a disservice by pushing the concept of "service" within Scouting and then turning around and saying that we should be getting something out of this? Would it not be better to teach that being a Den Chief is an opportunity to serve the Scouts of the Pack, rather than to give the impression that if we go over there and do a good enough job, we might get something out of it (Webelos crossovers)? This also goes for providing opportunities for Webelos to join your Troop at meetings and outings - look at it as service. OK, I know it is easy to feel like you've been "used" when you've poured your efforts into a den and all the boys go to another Troop; been there done that. But I always try to remember that true service is with no strings attached. Just my thoughts on this... ASM59

Good Day, I've seen my fair share of advancements that were pushed through; either due to lack of training by those who sat on the BOR or the SM or in some cases I'm convinced it was outrite deceit. In either case, you really cannot go back and undo the advancement or awarded MB. I understand that the paperwork has not been done, but I'd either get the old SM to sign the advancement form and get it turned in to Council or do it myself if I couldn't get him to do it. If there was no Scoutmaster conference for these two boys'and you're the new SM, you can always call them over one at a time for a SM Conference now. You may have already told the boys and parents how things are going to work from now on, but perhaps it will help prepare them for future SM Conferences; after all they are not used to them. In fact, it might be a good idea to pull all the boys aside to give them a SM Conference. Conferences do not have to be used exclusively at an advancement. You can use a Conference anytime that you feel you need to talk to a Scout. Since most or all of the boys have no idea what it is like to sit in a BOR either you could take some time to explain to them at some point what a BOR is like. Just a few thoughts for what their worth... ASM59

Thanks for the feedback, everyone... I am curious, I see that allangr... and Mrw1 are working withing Scouting even after their sons have "aged out". Are there others out there that are still working after their sons are gone? In what capacity? Why are you still working, even though your son is gone? I'm with acco40; I really enjoy working with the 10-13 year olds, especially the first year Scouts - they are so excited and energetic. Thanks, ASM59

Venividi, I'm just to the south of Three Fires Council in Rainbow Council. I have purchased several Boy Scout shirts at a local thrift store in Joliet that have Three Fires Council patches on them... Thanks for the feedback! Any more feedback from anyone? Thanks, ASM59

acco40, Excellent point. I have seen positive peer pressure work with several of the Scouts that I have served in the past; by sticking together and encouraging each other when receiving negative peer pressure at school. I remember one of my Scouts, Timmy, telling a fellow Scout, "Their just jealous that we get to do all this fun stuff in Scouts" and then turning to the negative offender and inviting him to come to a Scout meeting. This group of boys (4 boys in the same patrol) are very good friends and really looked out for each other all the time. I think it was the support that they gave to each other that kept these 4 boys in Scouts through their High School days. Now, I know that there is other Patrol peer pressure at work too. This peer pressure is great when it is working correctly. It helps to keep things in balance within the patrol. ASM59

Good Day, So my son turned 17 this year; only 8 months and 2 weeks till his 18th birthday. He has been Life rank for years. Football, chorus, plays, musicals, homework, job and girlfriend(s) have all been competing for his time and have many times won-out over time for Scout meetings and outings. I absolutely refuse to force him to get his Eagle. I do however gently encourage him, as much as seems fit. Anyway, this post is not about him, but about me. Regardless of whether he gets his Eagle or not, he will age out next May. What do I do next? I could stay and continue serving the Scouts of our Troop as an ASM, or I could become a Committee Member. I could also look at serving at the District level, perhaps I could become a UC. After all, I have been pretty critical of our UC in the past and would like to see the job done right; no pressure Or, I could simply fall off the Scouting radar all together. After nearly 12 years of doing Scout stuff, I just cannot imagine not being involved somewhere. Any advise / stories / personal experience ??? Thanks, ASM59

In my experience, most of the negative peer pressure toward scouting occurs in middle school years; usually 7th - 8th grade and even into 9th grade. The past two years, however I have seen several 6th graders affected by negative peer pressure as well (not something I've seen before the past two years). By the time boys get to High School (especially 10th - 12th grade), much of the negative peer pressure seems to stop; or at least it doesn't seem to bother them so much. But there are other things that are in conflict with their time for Scouting as they get to their later H.S. years; jobs, cars, girlfriends, sports, band... But that's another subject. ASM59

"Have any of you dealt with a situation like this?" Yes, last night at our Troop meeting Billy came to the meeting to tell the adult leaders that he was quitting. He was a AOL cross-over last February and has just started the Sixth Grade. His mother told him that if he was not going to the meeting and he wanted to quit, that he owed an explanation to the leaders and that she was not going to be the one to tell us. One of our other leaders, who went through Cubs with Billy since Tiger, went out to talk to him. Billy's reason; Scouts is boring and just not fun any more. Billy has been on every single outing since joining last February, and has had a blast at each outing. The adult leader talking to him began going over each outing and eventually got Billy to acknowledge that he did have fun in Scouting. He challenged Billy about not being truthful when he said that it was not fun anymore. Eventually, through tears, Billy admitted that the real reason was that his friends at School said, "Scouts is gay". So, it appears that peer pressure is the real reason that Billy wants to quit. Our leader challenged Billy to think about it for the next week or two before making a final decision. Billy was given a lot to think about over the next two weeks, including asking his friends to come to see how much fun Scouting can be. Billy has not been one who acts like he doesnt want to be in Scouts, until School started up two weeks ago. Peer pressure seems to be one of the primary reasons for boys not wanting to continue in Scouts; IMHO ASM59

Former Troop: Constant complaining and infighting among the Committee Members; especially between the Committee Chair and Treasurer - each have controlling personalities and who seemed to think that there is some power to be had as adult members of the committee (self-serving rather than serving the Scouts). In the end, this in-fighting had driven off most of the other Committee Members and ASM's. All this power struggle resulted in closed meetings, sometimes not even all the Committee members were invited. Present Troop: Committee will do just about anything to support the program that the boys want and the SM has approved - up to and including helping to provide transportation. Most (perhaps all of them - I don't know everyone very well yet) are very willing to serve when it comes to Troop operation. Meetings are open to all parents and SM and ASM's. Most don't bother to come, unless they are on the Committee, as they trust the Committee to do an upstanding job. ASM59