ASM59

Hello, In the thread Very Frustrated (http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=200534) there seemed to be much criticism of the paperwork not being properly handled. The CC was not doing their job either due to neglect or lack of training according to some. While this may be true, the question is, If the CC is not doing the job and the Cub Master is willing, why not let the Cub Master take the paperwork to council? I had a similar case in the Troop a couple of years back where I, as an ASM, was doing committee jobs such as fundraiser organization and outings organization. I was also doing the job of the Scoutmaster who was absent from every meeting and outing. I was trying my best to keep the Troop alive until someone was available to step up to the plate to help. Unfortunately, it did become too much and the inevitable happened; I moved to another Troop and the old Troop died. So, the question on the table is: Is it OK for the CM (or in my case the ASM) to take on some responsibilities in the event that there is no one else able or willing to do it? Or, is this only enabling the dysfunction to continue? ASM59

Good Day, We just returned yesterday from our week of summer camp at Camp Lowden. Just as predicted, Bruce and his fine staff pulled it off. Everything was in order as far as staff and they did an excellent job! Another great week at Camp Lowden. We have attended Camp Lowden two summers in a row, and the staff at Camp Lowden exudes Scout Spirit like no other staff from any other camp that Ive attended. When you ask the staff about it, theyll only say that its because of Bruce. Its the way Bruce lives his life with integrity and in a Scout-like manner that makes us want to be like him, said one of the staff members to me on the last day of camp. What an influence Bruce has had on the lives of staff members at this Camp. Thanks Bruce!

Gcan, I think you'll see that there can be a significant difference between your boys at 10 and when they are 12. They'll get along fine. I've taken our Troop, with the whole age range of Scouts, to many large Scout gatherings and have alway been impressed with the younger Scouts' ability to get along. Using the Buddy system gives them confidence that they can find their way around and back to camp. But in my experience, even if separated from their buddy, they always do well by finding an adult from the Troop or a staff member. By the way, I say this even though I have had the "poster child" for ADD in my Troop. This boy would wander off and be distracted by almost anything. He learned and with careful warning and instruction, even he did fine. ASM59

Since we are bound for Camp Lowden on June 22nd (first week), I can't help but wonder how this will affect the program this year. Oh what am I saying? Even though a staffing shortfall is no Small matter, I'm sure Bruce will pull off a great program again this year! ASM59

It really depends on what you are intending to do with this instruction. Do you intend to have the Scouts and adults come out of the session as "certified"? Or, do you simply want to fulfill the requirement for the First Aid MB (Identify the conditions that must exist before performing CPR on a person. Then demonstrate proper technique in performing CPR using a training device approved by your counselor)? If you only intend to fulfill MB requirement #3b, then you should be OK. If you intend to come out of the class certified in CPR, then at least one of your CPR instructors needs to have a current certification as a CPR instructor. As far as having a non-certified assistant, hopefully the main instructor knows that this is OK or he/she would make an effort to find a certified assistant. You could always ask the other instructor... ASM59

Good Day, I've had a couple of PM's wondering where in Missouri my son will be going to college: he'll be going to Central Christian College in Moberly. Thanks for the contacts... ASM59

Like SR540... said, not many Venture Crews around (closest is about 17 miles away) and my son is taking off at the end of July for Missouri to get College life started. He wants to join a local Troop (as an ASM) near his college and wants to be the BSA Poster Child for "Don't wait till the last minute". My Daughter is staying at home and will be attending a local Junior College for the next 2 years. She is very excited to help with the Troop as she plans to be a teacher. She works very well with kids and already knows half of the boys in the Troop. She completed all of the online training in the first week after she turned in her application to be a leader. ASM59

Hello, My son turns 18 in two days and will do so as a Life Scout. He did try to get his Eagle, but the ever dreaded Service Project stood in his way. He tried twice in the past to get projects approved, but there always seemed to be confusion regarding the approval process in our old district. Now that we are in a new Troop and new District, he did try again, but only 2 months before his 18th birthday. He submitted his write-up to the District Advancement Chair Person only to have his submission rejected (not the project, but the write-up). At that point, he decided it wasnt worth the stress of a re-write, especially in light of a new job and getting ready for Graduation. He accepts full responsibility for his procrastination. Now my step-daughter, who is 3 weeks older than my son, has always been jealous of the time that I have spent in Boy Scouts with him. I mentioned to her just before her birthday that at 18 she could officially join the Troop as an adult leader. Her face lit up and one week after her birthday, she turned in her application to the Troop Committee Chair. The committee, the SM and ASMs have welcomed her gladly. As my wife said, I guess you have an excuse to keep working with the Troop now ASM59

Anonymous, Welcome to the forums and sorry to hear of the difficulties. You've received lots of good advise so far, but my question is where is the Charter Organization (CO) and their representative (COR) on this whole matter? I'd be tempted to take the COR out for a cup of coffee and find out where they stand on this. Could it be that they don't even know what's going on? They might be shocked and totally back you up. If that's the case, there will be much hard work to recover from where the Troop finds itself now. However, if the CO/COR approves of what's happening, then like stated earlier, it's time to walk. I don't know about an organized exodus, but there's nothing wrong with your son talking to his buddies and if they and their parents decide to move too, so be it. Keep us updated... ASM59

"If you are absolutely sure that 100% of the families are Judeo-Christian, then some selections of readings from the Old Testament might be appropriate," First, I am a Christian and I don't necessarily like "interfaith" messages. Some of them that I've been to were... well, korny. I would prefer to go to listen to a message where I can hear and respond as I'd like. However, as quoted, if all are Jewish & Christian, you could take a look at the life of Joseph and talk about his integrity and faith and how he was rewarded for staying true. You could even work that into the points of the Scout Law. I'd be totally OK with a message like that. ASM59

OGE, No, and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was saying that Eagles from families who have parents) active and involved are any lesser Eagles. I guess that I have a sour taste left over from watching two boys get Eagle that I know didn't deserve it. Unfortunately, the only Eagles that I saw in a 7 year period (in our former Troop) were these two. In our present Troop, I witnessed a boy get his Eagle whose father is serving in Iraq and whose mother has no interest in Scouts and works two jobs. All I meant by my statement was that I know this boy did all the work himself, he had no one to help him at home. I'm sure that most of the boys getting Eagles do deserve it. My own experience must be fairly unique. ASM59

OK, it seems that there is a mix of opinions on this. It still seems that the BSA program is set-up to utilize adults in certain roles. To expect the boys to take on those roles seems to me to be diverting from the program as set-up by the BSA. I understand that there are different circumstances in different Troops and different maturity levels in different Troops. I am all in favor of using such a method if it works for a given Troop and it's what it takes to keep the Troop alive. As far as the Eagle issue and involved parents... I've seen Scouts get Eagle who have no active involvement from parents and you really know that they earned it and deserve it. I've also seen Scouts that "earned" their Eagle who didn't actually deserve it because Dad pushed and actually put together the service project for them; Dad being SM or ASM. So yes I've seen a trend of more boys earning Eagle if parents are involved in the Troop, but the boys who earn it without an active parent I really applaud... ASM59

I decided to spin this off, because it seemed that the thread was beginning to take a new direction. To clarify, I have said that the Boy Scout program is designed to use certain Adults to support the program that the boys want. I have stated that in an ideal world, I'd be OK with very little or no adult involvement, but that's not the way the BSA program is set up, nor would the world around us view this as acceptable. It seems that there are some who advocate little or no Adult involvement. So my question to those advocating little to no involvement by adults: Where do you draw the line with adult involvement? How many are too many? Do you really believe that all postions that BSA literature assigns to adults can or should be filled by the boys? ASM59

Beavah, Yes, I was coming from the perspective of mostly a younger Troop; mostly Jr. High aged boys with a couple of younger High School aged boys. Still, I've seen many cases where a credit card was required for reservations, and if you don't have a driver's license and need to get an adult; well there you go, you've got an adult volunteer... :-) Fundraisers; In our community, you need permits for almost anything and the city offices will not accept forms from a minor. Not to mention, that most adults don't have enough trust in youth operating without adult supervision. And advancements; I mention only that you should have an adult overseeing sign-offs and you definiately need to have certain "Adult" signatures on the forms to make them legit. In a more perfect world, I'd agree totally with you and would prefer to see all Troop acting more like you say. The truth is that the world around us expects adult supervision and oversight and in fact the BSA program is set up to run with that adult support. ASM59

Don't forget that you also need at least two adults at each meeting. You also need more than two adults for outings if you count the number of adults needed to drive. Most vehicles hold 5 or 6, so if you have 35 boys going on an outing, you need at least 6 vehicles and drivers. Also, you cannot turn over all adult functions to the boys. For example, you'll not be able to have a boy make reservations at campgrounds or set-up fundraisers. You may even be able to make a case that your youth QM may have a difficult time doing the job by himself without the help of an adult. Unless your QM has a drivers license, he will not be able to get to the store to purchase replacement items and do things like renew the tags on the trailer. Just keeping up with advancements and sign-offs with 45 active boys would be too much for one adult. Again, this is another function that needs to at least have adult supervision for the sign-offs and needs an adult to complete the paperwork and get it to council. I don't think it is realistic to think that you don't need adults; even in a truely boy led Troop. The program is supposed to be "boy led", but is supported by adults. It is hard to turn a Troop that is not boy led into one that is and I give much credit to RMcCown for having worked to do so. Yes it should be boy led because that's how the program is supposed to be. It is also supposed to have adults in certain roles to support the boys, just look at the BSA literature. ASM59

Hello, Like FScouter and Venividi pointed out; as long as you are doing it, you're not likely to get someone to do it if you are doing it yourself. This is very hard, because I'm sure you care about the boys and helping to deliver the program that they have put together to them. I was in a similar situation a couple of years back. I was having to do just about everything, up to and including having my wife come with us on campouts when we didn't have adequate leadership (wife was not a registered leader). I was an ASM with an inactive SM and only two part-time ASM's helping. I finally gave 5 months notice that after summer camp I was going to take a step back from all that I had been doing. I asked that the Troop find someone else to do all that I'd been doing. I said that I would be there to help and advise, but I would not do it all any more. Well, by November, my Son and I had moved to a neighboring Troop because the adults of the old Troop didn't step-up or find someone to step-up. Our July, August, and September outings were cancelled due to lack of Adult's to drive and stay at the campouts. The PLC gave up and didn't even plan October or November outings. I was blamed for killing the Troop by Adults on the committee! We had 20 boys in the Troop and a total of 7 moved to the neighboring Troop with us, where I am working as an ASM still and enjoying myself. Now, I'm not telling you to quit your existing Troop, but you really must find a way to make the other Adults (including registered leaders and parents who are not registered) understand that it is not healthy for the Troop, for you, or your family for you to bear all the responsibility yourself. Seek help from beyond immediate family. For example; maybe one of your Scouts has an Uncle, Aunt, or Grandparents who could get involved. I know of a Troop that has two Grandfathers involved in the Troop. One or both attend most every outing and there is hardly a Troop meeting that you'll not find both of them there. ASM59

OGE, One other thing to consider in how fast a boy could earn First Class, is the requirement for 10 Patrol/Troop activities & campouts. It might be difficult to participate in 10 activities very quickly. In our Troop, there is usually one Troop outing per month (sometimes two). So I'd be inclined to say that it is possible to earn First Class in 8 to 10 months. This would still allow Eagle in about 2 years. So unless the lad is over 16 years old, it would still be possible as you noted. One side note; the Baptist church that I grew up in had a "Royal Ambasador" program. As a part of that program was "Campcraft". Campcraft basically covered the same types of reqirements as Tenderfoot through First Class. I knew a boy who joined a Boy Scout Troop at 14 years old after having been involved in Royal Ambasadors. He basically flew through all of the requirements and only had to wait on getting the ten activities/campouts. By the time he was 17 years old, he had earned his Eagle. I think in cases like this, he must complete the BSA requirements. ASM59

I gave out a "Mr. Somebody" award in the past to a Scout that always got up when a leader would say, "Somebody needs to pick up the Garbage" or "Somebody needs to tidy up under the dining fly" or Somebody needs to ... " This Scout always, without fail would get up and do what needed to get done. So, he became "Mr. Somebody" He was honored with a special award at a COH. Other Scouts began jumping up to try to be the new "Mr. Somebody" after that award, and we had several "Mr. Somebody's" in the following years. ASM59

I think it depends on the individual. For me there is a clear winner: "A Scout is reverent". At least for me all the other points of the law can be thought of as resting on this one. If I am living my life with reverence, the rest of the 11 points will come naturally. During Scoutmaster conferences, I like to ask Scouts what part of the Scout Law they think is most important. I also like to ask which part is hardest for them to live and what part has been easy to live lately. These questions can really spark some interesting conversation and give some real insight into how a Scout is doing. ASM59

I heard that e-bay didn't allow the sale of the corn flake because it was a violation of policy --- no food sales on E-bay. So, even though the individual's auction did get up there, the sale was not allowed. So don't try the Cherios idea. :-) ASM59

Welcome to the forums... Do you hang your hat in one place most of the time? Or are you on the road all the time? I know many a Scout Troop that would love to have you on their committee or even as an Assistant Scoutmaster. What do you think? You wouldn't have to just remember the good old times, you could re-live them. ASM59

Good Day, HotDesk - I like your break down of the POR's. It really does show that if properly assigned and overseen, these positions, as Bob White points out, do not overlap and each boy can have an important part of helping to run the Troop. Of course, if you do not have a Troop trailer or equipment, it would not make sense to have a QM, but you could have a Librarian to begin compiling a list of MB books needed for Summer Camp even if you don't have any books currently. And so on for the other positions. I have worked with Troop size from 10 Scouts to 27 Scouts. We have always had as many POR's as make sense, and have never gone without a dedicated SPL and ASPL. Depending on the Scout filling these top positions, the SM or ASM's may need to do a lot of follow-up to make sure they are doing OK in their position. For example, are they delegating the jobs to whom they should, are they having problems getting those Scouts to actually do what needs to be done, and so forth. I never saw the need for a Troop Historian, but I had a Scout ask for the position and I reluctantly let him do it. He collected pictures from anyone who took a camera on outings, scanned them into his computer, and generated CD's for each outing that was turned into the adults. He also made collages of each outing on posterboard to be displayed at our Red & Green and other COH's. He really poured himself into the job and we were all very pleased that he took on the responsibility (by the way he was 12 years old). Properly overseen by the SPL, ASPL, adult leaders, these POR's can work even in smaller Troop sizes. I've never had a problem with "too many chiefs"... ASM59

OneHour, My son and I moved to another Troop about one and a half year ago. I went through a lot of the same feelings when I quit our old Troop. Quiting the old Troop was something that was not something that I wanted to do, but felt pressed back into a corner. As a result of being let down by many adults, my passion for being involved and active in Scouting was nearly lost. I only joined the new Troop as a leader, so I could be active with my son in his last year of Scouting. I had no intention of staying involved and I sure didn't intend to do anything if my son wasn't going to be there. Well, I went to Summer Camp again last year (didn't want to miss my son's last year at camp as a Scout). My son was off doing high adventure stuff, so I followed the first year Scouts off to their First Class Express program to make sure they found their way. I found that the two Camp staffers in charge of the program were overwhelmed with the number of boys, so I volunteered to help them. So, I went with our first year Scouts every day to their program. I found a niche working with those first year Scouts. I am constantly reminded by those Scouts about how much fun we had at camp. They have begged me to go to camp again, and Ive committed to going again this year even though my son will be aging out in May. I plan to do the same thing this year and see about helping with the First Class Express program. Well see how it works. My passion for doing this Scouting stuff? Its coming back. I see a few boys that just joined that really need the program, and I mean the program the way its supposed to be delivered. I see boys who were brand new Scouts last year that are developing into great leaders. They are beginning to shine in ways that they couldnt without the program. I want to be there to see it, to be a part, to help them develop into the best young men that they possibly can. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=128091#id_128196 ASM59

dScouter, Well put, well thought out response. I'm just enjoying reading all the responses regarding movies and how they can be applied. Keep the responses coming... ASM59

Bob, To answer your questions: Since the Troop in question liked the boys to use Troop Tents he would share a tent with another Scout or two due to a lack of tents. As we were given a hard time about this, he began sleeping under the stars when possible or bringing his own tent. The dining fly is a big job to put up and take down and they could have used my height and my son's height to help with this task. Taking it down the night before was not an option for the rest of the leaders. So the bottom line is that when applicable he does take down his own tent. He cleans up and takes home any of his own dishes/mess kit. He is even known for starting what had become tradition in the Troop of a "night before tear-down" policing of the area for litter. He saw this as a way of doing his part. He would pick up litter that was in the site and even garbage that others left under the dining fly. Patrol cooking gear is typically put away each day, but the actuall patrol box was left out for breakfast in the morning. ASM59