ASM59

Beavah, In re-reading things, you are correct in your point that the critisism here, if there is any, should be directed at whoever gave the DE permission to sleep in the same cabin with his fianc. Also, my point in my last post is only that Christians are called to a certain lifestyle which includes what many here view as an old fashioned view of marriage and living together (sex before marriage). If BSA is adopting these same values, and has rules to follow in line with these values, people who are a part of the organization should comply with those rules. If people want to see the rules changed, then try to change them. But until changed we should abide by them. There are some rules that I would hate to see people want to change that are in place for youth protection. ASM59

Beavah, I'm shocked. I cannot believe that you'd dare say that expecting people to follow the rules is being judgemental and unchristian. I'd also suggest that if you quote scripture to make your point that you look at it in context. The rest of the scripture that you quote says that if the person will not listen to you, then take another person or two to confront him. If he still will not listen, take him in front of the whole church. If he still doesn't listen, treat him like he's a heathen and publican; in other words treat him as though he is no longer a part of the church. Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Since you bring the Bible into it, we as Christians are called to live righteous lives (not for our salvation, but because of it). If you doubt this, well it's all over scripture, but one place to look is at the qualifications for Elders & Deacons (leaders of the Church) who are called to be "above reproach"; Titus 1 and 1Timothy 3. Above reproach meaning that they conduct themselves in such a way that they cannot be accused (rightly or falsely) of wrong doing. In truth all Christians are called to this, but it is an absolute for leaders of the Church. And indeed we are called to let our brothers know when they are out of line as per Matthew 18 that you pointed out. The Scout rule that man & woman are not to share sleeping quarters unless they are married is a rule that if followed is a protection against even the appearance of impropriety. Certainly we don't have to worry if any Cub Scouts know if the couple is married or not if they obey the rule, do we? ASM59

I would tend to agree with Buffalo. In my opinion, the hours put in for fundraising should be included; it's a part of the project. As he points out, in your case, the ultimate deciding factor is what your local Council or District Advancement Committee thinks. I have seen many different opinions of how to interpret these things depending on which Council you may be speaking to. So, I'd speak to your Advancement Chair person and see what his/her opinion is. ASM59

While what Bob White says is true, there are legitimate things that go on within a Unit that could be documented as a help for future volunteers. You should be careful to document them in such a way that lets the future leaders know that things could changed based on necessity or creativity. Just because we've always done it this way doesn't mean it couldn't be done better. Here are a few things that I was thinking about (starting with Calico's list): Banking information Pinewood Derby set-up/tear-down and storeage location Where your local Scout shops are Local Council office and who does what at the office Information regarding your meeting facility; who to contact for different things, location of tables and chairs Unit storeage location if one exists & who has keys Where do we order the arrows for the AOL awards? Who in the community volunteered in the past to make the AOL awards? Any fundraiser information if you have any outside of popcorn. Charter Organization & Representative information Web-site information; fees, server, passwords Depending on your Unit, there could be more, but as for the program, you should stress training and the standard documentation as BW points out. Enjoy... ASM59

1) *Engaged Party shares a Cabin 2) *Scouts most likely don't know their martial status. The two previous events have no impact on the scouts, or the program. Ah, but you miss some possible outcomes: 3) Other leaders see that the DE has a disregard for the rules or at least the one that he doesnt want to follow and decide that they too can pick and choose the rules they want to follow. Next month outings occur with total disregard to the G2SS Negatively impacting the program -or- 3) Parents see that the DE is violating Scouting rules that they believe in and 12 families leave Scouting forever Negatively impacting the program Remember, as was pointed out, this is not a volunteer Scouter, he is a paid professional. When he took this job, he should have known the program and I am sure that he said he would support the programs offered by the BSA, which means supporting the rules as well. Just as boys have to learn the ways of Scouting, so do our young DE's. That's where those of us volunteers who do "get it" can help them. Don't run to his boss complaining. Buy him a cup of coffee and sit down with the Scout Handbook and explain things. If he's smart and the right guy for your District, he'll thank you. If not, he'll hopefully be moving on soon enough. This is wrong, well maybe not totally wrong. As pointed out, this professional should have been informed and agree to the type of rules, regulations, and programs offered by the BSA. If he did not agree, then he should not have been given the job. Now the part of this that I do agree with is that it is always best to confront the person directly, instead of going over his head. If Id have known this was going on at one of our Council events, I would have pulled him aside and explained that he is in direct violation of the rules. Hopefully, then he would comply after simply being confronted. If not, then more persuasive arguments could have been given up to and including informing his boss. If there were any CORs present at the event, that would have been a good person to confront him as well if he wouldnt listen to reason. This is not a politically correct statement these days, but it is one that I try to teach and live by: Right is Right even if no one wants to do it and Wrong is Wrong even if everyone is doing it. ASM59

"The training in this case does not benefit the District and Council. It benefits YOUTH!!! Everything that the District and Council does benefits youth directly or indirectly. If an activity does not, in some way, benefit youth, why are we doing it? Your being a trainer helps youth and helps the adults who are serving youth." Yes, ultimately the purpose of training is to benefit the youth involved in Scouting. I will not dispute this fact. However, the training that I am talking about does indeed benefit the District. They have goals for training, therefore, they must offer X number of training opportunities and in order to do this, they must have trainers. One cannot be a trainer until they partake of this Trainer Development Conference. I plan to talk to our District Training Chair about this to get a local take on the whole thing. It is clear from the posts here that charging a fee for this type of training is not passed on to the participants in all councils. I have also received some private messages from people backing my take that there shouldn't be a fee to the participant. Money is not the problem here. I give hundreds of dollars out of my pocket to support Scouting each year. The problem is that many local people that I know are looking at this like our Council or District really doesn't care about getting more Trainers or there wouldn't be a charge. So, there is another side to this. I am not saying that I will never consider doing the training if there is a fee, but I do want to make sure that the people in charge, locally, do not have an issue if someone cannot pay. It could be that that's why they say it's a donation, and this is why I want to talk to our District Training Chair. ASM59

ScoutNut says, "Consider that, as a District Trainer, you will be asked to donate much more than $5. You will be asked to donate your effort, your enthusisim, your time, and your families time. No one is forcing you. If it is to much of a commitment, then simply do not take the course." I am well aware of the fact that it will take time to be a trainer as well as enthusiasm. I am also aware that no one is forcing me to do it. I am willing to make the commitment, but I do not agree that it is correct to have to pay cash out of my pocket in addition. I am passionate about the Scouting program and only considered being a trainer because my son has aged out and I wanted to be able to help other units understand how the program should be run. I have so much experience and could teach from that experience. Many seem to miss my point in my original post. I am not talking about position specific training. I am talking about training that directly benefits the District & Council. The District & Council should pay. The view that not paying the fee means someone doesnt have enough commitment, just goes to prove my point that even though the fee is called a donation, it is really expected. It also means that most other people would never say that they could not afford it or that they dont agree with paying the fee. If this is the prevailing view, that I dont have enough commitment to hold the position just because I prefer not to pay the fee, then the decision is that I will simply stay out of District level or Council level positions. Thanks for all your posts, ASM59

OK, I understand Troop level training having a charge. Our Troop will even pay the charge for the training because it benefits the Troop. Sometimes I actually let them pay. Typically, the person who benefits from the training will pay. It's like when my employer pays for training that helps me to do my job better. I can even understand paying in part or in full for the CPR and First Aid training as that can be of benefit outside of Scouting. But to charge fees to volunteers who are getting trained to be District Trainers, seems backwards. Yes, $5.00 doesn't seem like that much, and they said it is a donation; however, when it is put the way it was in the e-mail, it is really expected. I really don't think anyone will ask if they can go without paying the fee. However, it makes me wonder why I should go, and I know others who feel that way too. I think that the District asking volunteers to pay (or donate) so they can be trained for the benefit of the District is not the smartest move. I bet it keeps people who were considering a move to help at the district level from making that move. ASM59(This message has been edited by ASM59)

Hello, Today, my daughter (registered as an ASM) and I received an e-mail from our District Training Chair. Here is a quote from the e-mail: "I have you down as a possible attendee for the Trainer Development Conference. ... We are sorely in need of trainers. Being a Scout trainer is a perfect way to help without a large time committment; a one day four hr training conference and 2 hours every 3-4 months. The conference is Sunday, Oct 5th, 1-5 @ Council. A $5 supply donation is being requested to cover the cost of copies for handouts. ... Please respond asap to let me know if you can make it. If you can, please register with me and send your $5 to Council" So my question about this as I think about getting involved at the District/Council level: Is it normal to ask volunteers, who are getting trained for a District Training position, to pay for the training materials? To expect someone who is volunteering for a job to pay for materials seems a bit strange to me. It would be like me asking you to come to my house to help me cut down a tree, but before we start we have to go over safety. By the way, there will be a $5.00 charge for the safety training. Ill have ice tea available also while we are working for $1.00 per glass. What do you all think? Is this normal? Thanks, ASM59

DYB..., So what made it OK for your wife to help the lad with his belt and not you in the eyes of the Chairperson? Is it because your wife isn't registered? Or because she's a Mom? Just curious... ASM59

Barry implies in a recent post that it may not be appropriate to touch a Scout or to give a "shoulder hug" to a Scout who just got hurt to comfort him. Nevertheless he says that he does it anyway always in site of others. Now, I have been told many times in the past that it is NEVER appropriate to touch a Scout for any reason. My training in Youth Ministry says that a touch is very effective and seems to contradict the admonition to not touch a Scout. Now certainly there are inappropriate touches and thats not what were talking about here. What I want to know is, Is it written anywhere that a leader is never allowed to touch a Scout for any reason? I always assumed it was, but imagine my surprise when I went to re-take my Scoutmaster Fundamentals training two weeks ago and I saw the Scoutmaster in the video put his hand on the shoulder of the Scout he was talking to and even pat a Scout on the back as he told him he did a good job. So perhaps it really is OK to give a Scout a pat on the back or put your hand on his shoulder when youre speaking to him ASM59

Even if the units were right next to each other, CNYScouter would have to agree to be the second leader for BOTH units. If in name (or on paperwork) only, then it's really not two deep leadership. He would really have to somehow split his time between the two units. I don't see this as being fair to him or to the new unit that he agreed to go with. I think that joining the two units for this outing (such that they are registering to attend together) would be the only way to make this happen. But as CNYScouter says, "its up to them to contact the other Crew going to work this out". CNYScouter, go and have a great time! The Ship made up its collective mind which is what has driven you to step-down as Skipper and has driven your son to seek a new unit. I've been in this position, it's hard to know the former unit is suffering because you are not there, but it's not your fault or your doing. Go have a great time with your son and his potential new unit. ASM59(This message has been edited by ASM59)

OK, I was brought up with the notion that kids dont always know what is best for them, hence many nights sitting at the kitchen table for hours after having been told Eat all your broccoli or else! Well I surely did not want to eat the broccoli, but I knew better than to challenge my parents on this. The same applied to going to Church, getting homework done, obeying teachers (or any adult for that matter), and much more. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I still believe that this old notion is true; up to a certain age. Lisabob makes the choice that her son must be involved in something. Scouting works for them, as it did for my son and me. My son never wanted to quit in Cubs or Webelos, but he started making noises about quitting once getting to Boy Scouts. I told him that he was more than welcome to quit, after he got his First Class rank. He was the second Scout to earn his First Class rank out of the boys that he crossed over with. By that time, he was having too much fun to quit. I enjoyed 8 years of Scouting with my son, and now that he is off to college, he is missed. But, I intend to continue helping to provide a Scouting program to the boys of our area for as long as I can. I have a question about this. Did anyone else out there make it a requirement for their son to be in Scouts? (some of the best Scouts and worst Scouts Ive know were required to be there by parents) ASM59

Adults who leave Scouting when their sons leave had only one reason to be there. In my experience, those who stick around have caught a vision of how Scouting can help to mold a young life and they want to help. They have a true Scout Spirit within them that drives them to stay involved. I know that there are those, like Lisa, talked about who are real sticks in the mud, but in my experience most are really trying to do a good job. As has been pointed out, there are those with boys in the program who can be real pains also. So I think it is fairer to say that it comes down to a matter of an individuals personality, not whether they have a boy in the program or not. It is about having a servant attitude; giving without expecting anything in return. If we could all have that attitude, wed be trying to out give each other. With that happening I believe wed see all the adult politics and bickering within a Troop come to an end. If we could only live in a perfect world, or find that perfect Troop in the BSA training films Just another 2 cents ASM59

Hello, As an ASM and Father, I always let the other adults in the unit deal with my son if it was necessary. Likewise, if my son had an issue, I instructed him to talk to his SPL or when he was SPL, to talk to one of the other adult leaders. I did this to stay objective and let my son have the same experience in Scouts as the other boys even though Dad was there. Did I have a "vested interest"? Yes, because my son was there. At least in the beginning that was the primary reason but as time has gone on, my interest is in seeing the Troop run properly and helping to provide a program where boys can learn and grow in their leadership skills. I think I'll take exception foto's comment that "as the years go on most people lose contact with the current crop of young people"; since my son has aged out and I am now entering the realm of an older adult. I think you paint with too broad of a brush when you paint all with the same color base on your experience with your local leaders. I think that most who stay around will take care to try to keep up with the boys' culture. And as has been stated, YPT must be done at least every other year (around here every year if you go to summer camp). Anyway, my experience is that adults in the program after their kids have gone on, is good, and they try really hard to stay in touch with the program and the youth culture. Just my 2 cents... ASM59

Traditions and preconceived notions are difficult to overcome. I have seen Eagle Projects approved in other Councils that would never get by in our Council because projects of this type have always been rejected. This is regardless of how the project was written. In fact, I know of cases where projects were not even read because someone told the Advancement Committee that its just a food drive. Perhaps the project still would have been turned down, but it made it all the way to the District Advancement Committee, so it should be given serious consideration. Likewise, I have heard similar stories from people in other Councils. My point is that we all have our biases, and it is very difficult to get past those with some people. By the way, I do agree that it would typically be difficult to show adequate leadership by running/hostin a Blood Drive. But, if it makes it to the District/Council Advancement Committee, it deserves their serious scrutiny. ASM59(This message has been edited by ASM59)

BW, To clarify, we typically sign off on the Scout Spirit requirement during the SM Conference. When I have the opportunity to conduct the SM Conference, I spend quite a bit of time discussing the Scout Law, Oath and Scout Spirit with the Scout. I do lead the discussion to try to get an honest answer from the Scout as to how he feels he is doing with fulfilling this requirement. So, yes, I typically let the Scout tell me if he is demonstrating Scout Spirit. Only once has the discussion revealed, and the Scout admitted, that he was not properly demonstrating Scout Spirit. So in that instance it was not signed off until we met again a couple of months later (his choice to wait that long). Most of the other times we discuss that the Scout finds it difficult to always live the Scout Law and Oath at home with siblings and parents or at School with certain people. In those cases we will talk about how to improve and to keep trying to improve. Not everyone can say they meet this requirement 100% of the time, and I don't expect the Scouts too either, but I do expect that they should try and if they fall, to get back up and keep on trying... ASM59

OGE, Based on what you've posted, the Scout should be signing off the requirement to show Scout Spirit. I guess this could take the form of the SM sitting down during the SM Conference and discussing the matter with the Scout and the two of them coming to an agreement that he has been living it. ASM59(This message has been edited by ASM59)

OK, BW... good point. Thanks, ASM59

OK, I'm confused on a point that BW just mentioned. If the Adult male is responsible for and must be housed with the male youth participants and the adult female is likewise to be housed with and responsible for the female youth members; does that mean that there is not an expectation for "two-deep" during the night? Maybe I misunderstand, but "housed with" to me means in the same facility; such as guys cabin and gals cabin or something similar... Of course it could also mean my adult tent is pitched on the same side of the campground as the male youth tents... ASM59(This message has been edited by ASM59)

In this case, our SM's wife is also on the Troop committee, so both are not only registered, but fully trained. SMs son has aged-out, but is a registered ASM. He is in college & working so cannot attend this outing either. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I don't remember any stipulation regarding the relationship of the two adults, except as to if they can share a tent or not. In my previous Troop my wife (who wasnt registered) accompanied me on a couple of outings because there were no other adults available to go. I never heard any complaints or comments from District or Council level personnel when the Tour Permit came back approved with only the two of us on it. Please continue letting us know your opinion/experience on this Thanks, ASM59

Good Day, I was informed today that our Troop is canceling this weekend's outing because of lack of leadership. It was explained that only the SM and his wife are available and this does not qualify as two deep leadership for an outing. Unfortunately no other adults are available this weekend, and because of that the outing is canceled. I don't ever remember this question coming up before and I haven't researched it yet, but was wondering if this is someone's interpretation of the rule, or is it really a violation to have a husband and wife as the only adult leaders of an outing? Thanks, ASM59

Hello, I think it is just about impossible to give a good answer to your question without having a good feeling for the event, number of people attending, and their likelihood of purchasing stuff. When I was treasurer of our local Pack and my wife was fundraiser chairperson, we had pop & water sales at our local summer festival in town every year for 5 years. Our first year, we profited nearly $900.00. I cant remember the total number of pop cans and water bottles sold, but I know that the very next year at the same event we only sold half the amount of pop and water. Again, the third year the profits were back up to around $800.00. The way we did this was to work out an arrangement with the local grocery store. They simply kept some pop and water in the cooler for us and we picked them up (and ice) as we needed it. A tally was kept and when the fundraiser was over, we paid the balance. It was great, we didnt have to have any money up front and the store was very gracious in the way they dealt with us. I am not so sure about the advice about the price??? Our experience is that by keeping the price reasonable, we got more business and became well know for not being like the other booths that were gouging on their prices ASM59

highcountry, I understand your frustration, hopefully in your case others will realize that they need to step up and do their jobs. If not, hopefully there is another Troop in your area for you (and your son, I assume) to go to. It's interesting to hear of others who have had to do the same thing to try to keep a unit going. I wonder if there is anything that the local Council or BSA national could come up with to help? Like a video that could be shared with parents that would perhaps help to motivate them to help, or at the very least accurately describes the time that the volunteers put in to make a functioning Troop work; and none of that 1 hour per week business. :-) ASM59

Yes, I understand that in the previous post there was not only an expectation that the incorrect person would handle the paperwork, but also a failure by that person to come through. In this thread, I wanted to ask the question that I did in general to get an idea of how others view doing things that are "not my job". Looking at my example above, at the time, I was doing my best to keep the Troop alive (for the Scouts). However, the more I did, the less likely I was ever going to get someone else to do what I was doing. It became expected that I'd do it, so nobody else felt the responsibility to do it. It became a snowball rolling down a long hill and the responsibilities kept piling on until I reached a breaking point. Like I said, at the time I felt like I was doing what I needed to be doing for the boys and for the Troop. In retrospect, I was only enabling people to not do their job. Helping someone out once or twice is OK, but when doing it for them becomes routine there's a problem. Kbandit, It sounds like your unit may want to switch some roles. If your CC likes to work with the boys and comes to meetings and outings, it sounds more like an ASM role. If you dont mind taking care of the paperwork and such, perhaps you could take on the CC position. Just a thought But of course this is the kind of information I was looking for... ASM59