ASM59

Eamonn, I've found it more difficult as time goes on too. Sometimes motivation is lacking, and I really have a hard time tolerating some adults in recent years. Just the time that I'm ready to give it all up and walk away from Scouting, I get just the motivation that I need to keep going. It always comes from the boys. I travel in my job and sometimes miss a couple of weeks in a row. Lately, when this happens and I show up for the next Troop meeting I will be approached by one, two, or more boys to ask where I've been and to ask if I'll be at the next outing or next meeting. That pumps me up and helps keep me going. I have kind of fallen into the niche of ASM working with new Scouts. New Scouts and their enthusiasm and the way they look up to the older boys with awe really helps to motivate me to stick around to help them. So as mentioned, perhaps the key for Eamonn would be to hook up at the unit level for a while and work more directly with the youth... just my 2 cents. ASM59

I hear you Doc... I have also made the decision to ignore the Scouter Forums for a while; old habits die hard, so here I am. I am not as frequent of a poster as others here, but have had some extra time lately and have been able to do more posting than usual. I have been met with what I consider un-Scout-like responses too. I have received scathing personal messages for trying to defend myself. I feel like I am supposed to bow to the superior wisdom of others and never counter them with what I believe or what Ive read or what I know from experience. Like you said, I feel like I accidentally walked into the middle of a fight and someone thinks that I want to take sides. When I started posting recently, I did not realize the problems that had developed between certain members on the Forums. I dont understand why adults have to come to the place of behaving like this. So, as was pointed out to me, I dont have to stay, I dont have to read, and I dont have to reply. So thats where I am. At the very least, Ill be taking a break from posting on the Forums for a while. ASM59

boysmom..., Ditto what Beavah and OneHour said... I was an ASM who felt compelled to leave the Troop I was serving in. In my case, I left because of lack of support from my SM other ASM's and my Committee. Everything, became my responsibility and I simply did not have time to continue because of my job requirements. I made sure to have a discusion with each boy and his parent(s) before actually leaving. I would never have left without some kind of explaination to them and asking parents for help in the hopes that I would not need to leave. I tell you this, because I would hope that any leaders that have left would be sensitive to your son's feelings. Perhaps just knowing how much one Scout misses them and appreciated them would be enough motivation for them to give it another try. So do mention it to any adults who have left that your son liked. At the very least invite them to talk to your son about it. You mention "one bad apple"; who is that bad apple? Would the Troop be better off with this bad apple gone and those who left back? ASM59

Beavah, I brought up the situation with our Adult Member (who yes did have a son in the Troop) and the death of his Father to simply point out to GW that there may be circumstances where you do need to go back on your promise (your word). I did not bring it up to say that someone should chastise the poor fellow for making a decision one way or the other. In fact, I think it would be cruel and heartless to do so. I don't know anyone who would think any less of someone in this situation for making the choice that he did. He, in fact, made the only choice he could; it was not his fault. Youve taken this situation and twisted it to a new level to make your point, but BW is right, your arguments make no sense and border on, if not descend right smack in the middle of ridiculous. ASM59

GW, I really hope it is as David said, that you're "just yanking our chains". Like I said, there are circumstances that would allow you to change your mind and back out of a commitment (go back on your word). To say, "can not going change anything?" simply seems to me to be insensitive to your other responsibilities. Yes, not going can change things or at least help. No, it cannot bring the deceased one back, but you could be available to Mom and the rest of the family. In the case I spoke of, the adult was the only Son in town available to help his mother make visitation and funeral arrangements. There were legal matters that needed to be taken care of, and the list goes on. I really hope you're kidding because I think in this case your obligations to family would trump your word, and nobody would think less of you for backing out under such circumstances. ASM59

GW, What about if you give your word and then circumstances change? Is that acceptable? I'm only asking because I too find your position somewhat severe. I try to be a person of integrity, and if I give my word I typically follow through. There have been times however when I have had to change my position because of new information or because of a change of circumstance. An example (in this case not me) was one of our adult leaders promised to go to Summer Camp and then backed out when his father got very sick and actually passed away just the day before we were supposed to leave for camp. Does a change of circumstance allow one to go back on his/her word? ASM59

Baden..., Thanks for clarifying. I understand you point about how some are reacting. You also pointed out that, "The fact is that scouting has survived a hundred years not because of a myriad of rules but because the program is FUN, the kids feel challenged, experience leadership, and develop a sense of who they are and what they are capable of achieving, period. What kind of boys a unit puts out is far more more important than how the leader interprets the patrol method or who can sit on a BOR." I can agree with your thoughts on this as long as people can also understand that Scouting may have survived for so long and the program may be FUN because of the way the program is run. How it's run is defined by the rules. That's how I look at it and if it looks like someone is not familiar with the rules, under the right circumstances, I may feel like sharing the rules with that person. This is to be helpful, not to judge, as I've been accused. I am always careful in sharing my thoughts/advice so as not to sound judgemental or harsh. And as pointed out, I will do so in private and let the person decide to accept or apply the advice. I've been attacked because of my views on the rules, and I'll admit that I was brought up in a family and I dare say a culture that looks at things as Black and White with very little Gray area. So, I tend to be a stickler for following the rules. But as has been pointed out, I do try to focus on the major things (such things that could be dangerous or damaging). So, no I would never walk up to another Scouter and say, "Hey, did you know that your Scout over there has his Shirt untucked?" But, if I saw the same Scout throwing his open knife at a tree while others were standing near or behind the tree, you better believe I'd say something. I would not lecture the leader about his undisciplined Scout or how he should hand out any discipline (trust me I know leaders that would lecture). I'd simply leave it up to the Scout's leader(s) to handle the situation. ASM59

I've resisted posting on this one since I saw that Beavah started it. But I just can't resist any more. I really have found parts of this humorous, while other parts I find confusing if not troubling. Baden says, "Anyone who volunteers their time to be a scout leader and works hard to create the right environment for our youth to excel in life should be commended and not denigrated by those whose own overinflated egos and self importance overides everything else in their lives." Please help me understand what you are saying. If I pull you aside at summer camp or a camporee to let you know that I think you or someone in your Troop is not following the rules, then I am denigrating you and/or your other adult volunteer. Is that what you are saying? ASM59

"Do yeh have a moral obligation to at least raise the question to those who are responsible? Quite possibly." Beavah? Is that you? Moral obligation? ASM59

I like the prospect of the on-line social networking presence. Even though Im old now, I have kept up on what the youth are doing. I have been to yearly Youth Ministry conventions that highlight changes in youth culture and the simple fact is that on-line is where most of them are for their social networking. Even the 20-somethings are on-line. It is absolutely amazing to hear about the dollars that organizations like M-TV are spending to research our youth culture in this country and around the world so they can understand their culture. Their budget for this is nearly unimaginable. I think as far as connecting with the youth and giving the BSA some legitimacy for some youth this is great. The move in this direction could be positive. I must be handled properly though and must happen in such a way that we dont ruin the positives that the program has going for it now. ASM59

Beavah, Lets see, Ive posted about 280 times since November of 2003 and youve posted 2820 times since June of 2005. So who spends the time on forums? Most of my time is spent at meetings and in the field with the Troop. As I said in the other thread, I'm OK with disagreeing on something like this. But I am a firm believer in being able to disagree and have a respectful dialogue about the reasons that we disagree. It doesnt mean that I think youre horrible so please dont think I am saying that. But you have to understand that there are probably just as many who agree with my side of this. All I want to do is calmly and gently inform people who might be breaking a rule that they are in fact breaking that rule. I recognize that I dont have any authority to do anything about it if they dont agree or understand. Based on my experience, a gentle reminder is all that is necessary and there is compliance with the rule. There is no resentment, no hurt feelings, no anger. I have the experience in the field to say that this approach works. You are welcome to think that I am wrong, but I have the backing of many more on this one Its is better to quietly and gently explain a rules violation to someone rather than to allow the boys to see that adults dont have to follow the rules, or rather than allowing a rules violation that could cause a dangerous or compromising situation. ASM59

Beavah, I'm OK with disagreeing on something like this. But I am a firm believer in being able to disagree and have a respectful dialogue about the reasons that we disagree. It doesnt mean that I think youre horrible so please dont think I am saying that. But you have to understand that there are probably just as many who agree with my side or somewhere in between our seemingly diametrically opposed positions. You say, So yeh see, for all you know, both da SE and the DE are followin' the law/rules. Well it occurs to me that based on how you say this that you dont know that they arent breaking the rules. So, it would be great if we could clarify this fact or even answer the ever pending question regarding if a DE would typically have a Morality clause in his contract. You seem to indicate that it might be OK to let the adult know that he is violating the rules under certain circumstances. Im OK with that and yes we should let the proper people handle the situation if they are there. But as you seem to indicate, it may be totally appropriate to let Dad know that the Beer should wait, again under the right set of circumstances. I am going to stick to my feeling on this one that it is better to quietly and gently explain a rules violation to someone rather than allowing the boys to see that adults dont have to follow the rules, or rather than allowing a rules violation that could cause a dangerous or compromising situation. ASM59

Neil..., I like vanilla ice cream; yeah I know it's kind of plain, but that's what I like. I really don't think we are that far apart. By calling someone on a violation, I simply mean speaking to them about it; not trying to get them in trouble, but simply giving information. This is in fact close to the first option that you mentioned. I simply want to make sure that the other person is aware that they are indeed violating the rules. In my experience simply pointing out the fact that the violation has been noticed is enough, or sometimes the person really didn't know that it was a violation. ASM59

Stosh, I think Lisa...'s point is that she would have to know the person driving her son. She may be perfectly OK with my daugter driving her son, and I'm sure she would be if she knew her :-), but she may know something about another 18 year old that would make her nervous about that person driving her son. If I had this situation in our Troop, I think I'd make every effort to accomodate the wishes of that parent and let their son ride with someone else. Now, if all the parents said this and having the 18 yr old drive is the only way for the outing to happen, then yes, I'd make an issue of another parent stepping up to the plate or the steering wheel. ASM59

Eamonn says, "I know that at the end of the day the only person who can make any real changes to me is myself. Others can make me aware of things that I'm not doing right or point me in the direction to where the information I might need is. They can offer me advise. If I'm doing something wrong, they can report my wrong doings to the DE or the District Chairman. The District Chairman was the person who asked me to take on what I'm now doing. He can ask me to step down. The DE could report to the SE who can revoke my membership in the BSA." Eamonn implies that someone could report his wrong doings to the DE or District Chairman who recruited him to the position he is in. But who does the reporting? The person doing the reporting is who Id look at as the police. Then the DE or District Chairman acts as judge & jury as to the consequences of the behavior. But lets talk closer to home for most of us. I really want to know who is responsible for pointing out to someone that they are not following the rules, for example on a weekend campout. We may be on Council property or at a State Park. If I see some adult Scouter violating the rules (smoking, drinking, drugs, sleeping with girlfriend, sleeping in same shelter with Scout who is not his son, ) is it my place to say something to this adult about the rules and the fact that he is not following them? Or do I wait till I get home and call the DE? Or do I simply say nothing at all to anyone??? I think Ive read all three of these options in all of your answers in this thread. In my book it is better to simply have a man to man conversation and explain the rules and why they are there. Eamonn also hints at this approach in his answer. I'd even go further that I expect that the rules will be followed on an outing that Im a part of. Is this an unreasonable approach??? Certainly I have no authority to force change and I dont want that authority. But if we simply overlook rules violations, what good are the rules? Yes, hopefully the others who have volunteered will abide by the rules of their own accord, but who will be there to point out the rules to the new members if they havent had training? If we all adopt the attitude that we cannot say anything to other adults about rules infractions, then they will never learn the rules that they may be OK with following. To answer a couple of your questions, this is what I mean by "police". People who will make sure that the rules are being followed, by simply coming along side of someone and explaining the rules. Not to force our own morality, but to make sure that the program is delivered as intended and safely. And as I mentioned to simply let others know what the rules are who may not already know. I think this is totally within the bounds of the Scout Law. ASM59

Neil..., So, are you saying it IS our (the vounteer at the unit level) place to call someone on a rules infraction? The disagreement on this thread regarding if it is our place to do that or not is the reason that I spun the other thread about the BSA Rules Police. I understand that in this case you are advocating going to the DE's superior to address this, but in order to understand where he received his permission, you would have had to have had a talk with the DE about the matter. I'm really trying to understand our (my) responsibility in matters such as this... ASM59

Lisa..., Excellent point and no offense taken. Even though it's OK by the book, I would make sure that it was OK with parents before letting their boys ride with someone that young. I think your comments make perfect sense. ASM59

nld... Good point! I just looked and not only could she have youth passengers, but even 16 yr old youth drivers can have youth passengers under the conditions outlined. I really thought this was not allowed (especially the 16 & 17 yr old drivers). Anyway, my point still stands, as the practice in our unit is that two adults from the same family do not constitute adequate 2-deep leadership... ASM59

BW, You posted, "People who do not understand the relationship between operating within the rules of scouting and setting an example of good citizenship should be doing something other than scouting." What you say is true, and I can agree that the person to tell these people that they do not belong in Scouting is most likely the COR if the person is in a Unit position. Or if the person you talk about is at the Council/District level I suppose the responsibility of getting the person out of Scouting is one of the Executives or the Board. What about the case where you're on an outing and you see a total disregard for the rules? Do you have the right or responsibility to step in to say something? Based on what I've read here from many posters, the answer is no, you do not have the right or responsibility to step in to make sure that rules are followed. So for those who believe this to be the case, do you simply allow people to disregard rules on an outing? Or does it matter which rule has been violated? If you see an adult tenting with his girlfriend, would you say something? What about if little 11 year old Johnny is homesick and one of the adults (not a parent) invites Johnny to sleep in his tent? Maybe this is different??? Would you say something then? ASM59

Neil..., Thanks for your explaination, very well thought out... Adams... Welcome to the forum and thanks for the added insight. Hope to see you posting more. ASM59

So Beavah seems to indicate that pointing out the fact that someone is breaking the rules is to be judgmental, at least in the case of the thread this is spun from. Eamonn says that he does not want to be judge & jury in cases like this, his duty is to follow the rules himself and hopes that others will do likewise. But where do we draw the line? On the one hand some want to accuse people of being judgmental for simply pointing out the rules and expecting others to follow them. On the other hand Im sure that there are some rules that if violated everyone on this board would stand up to chastise the offender. So again I ask, What good are rules if there are no checks to see that the rules are being followed? And if we are a part of this organization, what right do we have to pick and choose which rules we follow and/or enforce? In society, we have the police to enforce laws, but even the police rely on citizens to call in reports of suspicious activity. With out help they couldnt do as good of a job. If we all adopt the attitude that we dont want to be judge and jury, then there will be no one to make sure the rules are being followed. So if it is not my place or anyone elses place to point out that someone is breaking the rules, whose place is it? Who is there to be the BSA rule breaker police? ASM59

Beavah, Once again you miss the rest of the story... After telling her that he did not condemn her, he told her to "go and sin no more". In that simple compassionate response He was acknowledging that what she had done was wrong and He was telling her not to break the rules anymore. No one is advocating stoning this DE for what he did, but I guess its too judgmental to simply point out that the rules are not being followed. What good are rules if there are no checks to see that the rules are being followed? ASM59

First, in our Troop the adults act as a Patrol of their own, so the adults do cook and are set up away from but within sight of the boys. The boys are left to cook in their Patrols on their own. If an adult is not registered but wants to go on a campout with his/her son, then the first time, they are a guest. They are informed that for the most part, it's hands off; no helping son set up tent, no cooking for son, no agonizing over son dying from eating what's prepared, etc. Most importantly, observe from a distance. The second time, they are invited to help the adults with the adult meal preparation and keeping the coffee going and such. If they don't respond to an invitation to help, they are given a task to do, like, "Please go get some water and make some coffee." The third time that parent comes, they are encouraged to help out the adult "patrol" even more. Also, by the end of the outing, filling out an Adult application is discussed with them. Usually, the parent is only curious about what goes on at a campout. Most do no visit a second time, but if they do they have to know that we believe in everyone helping out. If they come back again, it's our feeling that they must have more than just a casual interest and are ready to join as a registered adult. This past weekend our Troop went to the Illini Jamboree. If one of the parents had not been going, we could not have gone. My ASM daughter and I were the only adults going. Since she is 18, she cannot drive youth, so we simply did not have room enough for all the boys to go. This Father was very good about letting the boys do their thing and not interfering. It was a great weekend. ASM59

Neil..., I am curious about your saying that the BSA is a Consensus Organization and exactly what you mean by that. from Webster's Dictionary: Consensus 1 a: general agreement : unanimity b: the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned 2: group solidarity in sentiment and belief My first reaction to the term Consensus Organization is an organization that takes a vote on everything. Meaning that if there was a disagreement over the DE sleeping with the fianc, then we should assemble and vote on whether to allow it or not. If thats the case then I would not agree. However, if by a Consensus Organization you mean that there are certain standards (rules) that the BSA has adopted and that those joining the organization must be in agreement or they wouldnt have joined, then Id agree. ASM59

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