ASM59

Maybe it was the way I was brought up, or maybe it is my personal commitment not to do it, but I don't use any language that could be misconstrued as "cursing"; except possibly where a direct quote was necessary. Now I am a well respected individual in the circles that I run, and the boys of the Troop almost always come to me first when they need adult intervention or help; so I know there is respect there as well. Ive found that having both the respect of the youth that I am working with and having a clean track record is the best deterrent to hearing them use it. I can confidently stand in front of them and ask them if theyve ever heard that kind of language come out of my mouth. Yes, they will tend to use it when there are no adults around, but when in our presence, they seem to be able to control the tongue. So, I can challenge them to tame the tongue even when they are not around the adults. I think there is a cultural thing going on that seems to say, no one will take you seriously if you dont use expletives. I can point to many times where I have resolved problems without the use of a single curse word. In one case, I was dealing with a medical insurance claim and was getting no help from the person on the phone. That persons manager called me back (at my request) and said that he did not appreciate me cussing-out his employee. I challenged him and told him that I would not stand for having a false accusation used against me. I told him to go back and play back the recording of my phone call with his rep. He did so, and called again later with an apology. He said he could hear how passionate that I was regarding the matter, but that I did not use any inappropriate language. He spoke to his rep to correct the misperception, and did look into my complaint and ended up resolving it in my favor. My point here is that you can get peoples attention without cussing; it just takes more reasoning and thought. People who cuss to get their point across usually do not have a good argument and fall back on intimidation to get that point accepted. Thats what I tell the youth that I work with ASM59

I don't know ?!?!?! Would have been better without the 4-letter colloquial metaphors. Not very Scout like IMHO.

Hello, I currently counsel all of the MB's that you mention, except the Composite Materials MB. I am qualified to counsel that MB, and may actually sign up for that MB as I work in an industry that works with Composites. I am in Illinois, where are you located? ASM59

Welcome from a fellow Illinoian... ASM59

Well, I'm not a Doctor or a Lawyer, nor have I ever played one on TV. My wife however is a nurse and we've had many discussions regarding this topic. My wife can dispense medication, but only under the direction of a Doctor. In other words, if she is working at a nursing home or hospital or even school, she can dispense meds according to the orders for an individual patient. We have both worked many childrens and youth camps. When she works (volunteers is more accurate) she is camp nurse and is responsible for holding all medication. The camp's policy is that all medication is to be held by the nurse in a locked (or otherwise controlled) container. As she does not specifically have a doctor's written order for dispensing medication, she reads the container, and discusses with the camper what they are supposed to take. She then hands the container to the camper, who opens the container and takes out the pill(s) and takes their own medication while she watches. Now, as for Scout Camp... First, let's discuss this year's summer camp at our local council. All medications had to be stored and dispensed by the medical staff member who was a paramedic. Adult members of the individual units were prohibited from keeping or dispensing medication; including their own. The previous year we went to a neighboring council's camp. Their policy is that all medication is kept in the unit campsite and it was the unit leader's responsibilty to give the medication to the Scouts. In our unit, the medication was kept locked in the adult leader's cabinet in the trailer. When the Scout(s) needed to take their medication, it was made available to them so that they could take it. I don't know for sure all the legalities, but my wife is convinced that there is a difference between giving a pill from the container to a person and letting them take the pill out of the container themselves. She has been told that the person opening and taking the pill from the container is considered the person dispensing the medication. If that person is the person on the container, then all is OK. Just my two cents... ASM59

SSScout, The short answer is "yes". As stated, I turned in my application to my DC, and yes there was money involved although I cannot remember how much. That doesn't really matter because I have talked to the Council Registrar who acknowleges the fact that my application was received and that my money was received. The phone calls that I followed up with were not only to the DC, but to some of the others that I mentioned before. And for sure I have talked to different people at Summer Camp and District events. Promises to get back to me never happen. I really think that its because I'm not a part of the "good old boys' club". Quite frankly, it's as Scoutldr said, "It's always better to be wanted than to be qualified." If I'm not wanted (as evidenced by their actions) then I'm through trying; and I did try. I'll be happy to keep working at the unit level as long as I can. ASM59

I just have to add that yes, I am know at Council by the paid staff and by many of the volunteers on the various committees and some who are serving as Commissioners. I seem to have a good reputation. I have also volunteered at many events, from camporees to Cub Day camps. I even took two weeks of vacation time to help staff at the Provisional Camp-site one year because they were in a pinch. By the way, I used the word staff, but it was really volunteered. So yes, I am known and have helped out successfully in the past. ASM59

I've spoken with many, many, many people. Let's start with our UC. What UC? Our Unit does not have a UC assigned. I've spoken directly with our District Commish to verify that it's not just my suspicion. He doesn't think we need one, because our program is running fine. Not that he knows that first hand (he's never been to our unit meeting), but he has heard that it's running fine. Speaking of our DC, I've known him and his wife for 12 years. We've been out for breakfast and sat together over coffee many times. I personally handed him an application and he said he'd submit it and get back to me. He is one of the people that promised phone calls back. Did I mention that I followed up with several phone calls after handing in the application? He never returned one of the phone calls. In addition to the above, I have also spoken with or sent e-mails to: the District Advancement Chairperson and a couple of people on the Advancement Committee, the District Training Chairperson and at least one person on the Training Committee, a District Commish from another district (to make sure I was speaking to the right people), and our District Executive. The DE promised to look into why I never got a call back, but he never called me back. The next time I saw him was at the annual Council Dinner and he did not remember our conversation. These contacts were spread out over about a year-and-a-half... We all get busy and I'm not angry or even upset; just disappointed. It's like I said before, "I shouldn't have to beg them to let me get involved". ASM59

Wow, don't mean to give the impression that there's a waiting list, they're always complaining that there are not enough volunteers. I guess it's a matter of not being invited by the "good old boys club". I was trying to step into the club instead of being invited or perhaps "groomed" for the job. They really don't want anyone who might do things differently than "we've always done it". There really is only one way to do it in Scouting and that's according to the book. But the reality is that we don't always do it by the book and we wouldn't want anyone to call us on it. ASM59

After posting in the thread that I spun this from (almost 2 years ago), I decided that if I could be critical of my UC and DC for not doing their job, then it's time to step up to the plate and show them how it's done. Well, I did approach a miriad of people at our Council; both at the offices and at Round Table meetings. When I approached them, I didn't come at them with the attitude that I was going to solve all the World's Scouting problems, but I did explain that I had gained a lot of experience and that I was ready to give back by helping other units. Everyone that I talked to acted like they would be happing to have my involvement. I was advised to take Commissioner Training which I did. I assumed after the training that I'd get a call, but never did. I spoke with many of the people that seemed most interested and while they did still seem interested, never invited me to get involved and promised phone calls never happened. Finally, I gave up trying to get involved in our Council. I've adopted the attitude that it's about the boys and working at the Unit level with the boys is what's most rewarding; so that's where I am now. Afterall, I shouldn't have to beg them to let me get involved. ;-) ASM59

Nick, Interesting thoughts, but I believe that swimming is a very important skill to master. It is true that not everyone has the same aptitude, but that just means that some will need to try harder. Youre living proof that it can be done with a little work. For those who have very real physical or other handicaps that prevent them from completing the requirement, there are ways to petition for an alternative or exception. I could make the same argument about any other requirement in the handbook. For example, I have a hard time remembering knots, so there should be an alternative. Stretching yourself builds character. You can feel very good about yourself for having overcome what was difficult and conquering it. Good Job ! ASM59 As a side note: Ive found that most who say they cannot swim have parents that cannot swim. The parents taught extreme fear of the water to their kids and thats why they will not swim (not cant swim). In most cases these kids can be taught confidence by showing them that they will not sink like a rock.(This message has been edited by ASM59)

Our Troop is going... More flatlanders

Hal, I agree in principle with your thoughts and I am more than willing to help. However, we will have a hard time getting our Scouts to go to camp next year if we go back to the local camp. I know all the arguments and our Council does try to blame their own Troops for not attending as a reason that they cannot make improvements. But remember, just 5 & 6 years ago the camp was still running decent numbers, but even then they had similar types of problems. Concerns from Troops like ours are dismissed as simple complaining. If you are not in the "inner circle" your thoughts and suggestions for improvement are not take seriously. Believe me, I have tried to get involved to help our local camp, but was basically run off by those in charge. They don't like outsiders to get involved and want to run things the way they want. Unfortunately this is the attitude in our Council. I can only hope that things will change. For now, I'm in this for the boys and want to insulate them from the problems within our Council, so they won't feel bad about Scouting. I really think the program offers something they can benefit from and don't want to lose them due to these types of problems. ASM59

John, The visitation team was there on Tuesday. They gave the camp a 100% rating (or however it's graded). The announcement was made that evening at Dinner. The Staff was on their highest guard to make sure that everything was right where ever the team was. It was actually so obviously deceitful. When the visitation team was at the waterfront there were extra staff there and buddy check calls went out every 10 minutes. As soon as the team was gone, some of the staff moved on to other things and the buddy check calls stopped. ASM59

With regard to where we are located, I hate to finger our camp by name, so I will just say be wary of a Camp in northern Illinois that is only running 3 weeks of camp with the third week having only 3 Troops on camp. Other neighboring camps are running 4 to 5 weeks and their weeks are mostly full. I already have a list of all the camps within a 4 hour drive, along with a summary of what each camp offers and their 2009 camp prices. We'll be sharing that list with the PLC, but more than likely we'll be back at the same camp we went to the last 2 years. Thanks again for your comments, ASM59 (This message has been edited by ASM59)

Regarding the reporting of these issues; we (adult members of our Troop) definitely made our voices heard during the camp week. All of the problems that I listed in my original post have been taken to the Program Director and Camp Director. It is well known that the Camp Director plans not to be back next year. The Program Director was hired from out of our Council last year and is back this year. In a candid moment with him, he shared that he is frustrated because the Council will not give him what he needs to run a better program. He apparently has ideas, but no backing from the Council. He said that because of this, he would not be back next year. Three years ago we went to this, our local Council camp, and had many problems; although not as bad as this year. As a result of the problems, the adults and Scouts made the decision to go out of Council. We did that for the last two years. We had a great time and did not see any of these types of problems at the out of Council camp. About mid-week this year, the boys started asking if we could go back to the out of Council camp next year. Even our first year boys who had only heard stories about that camp were asking to go there next year. I think the PLC and the Adults have already decided that it will be an out of Council camp again next year. With regard to helping out: When I told the lifeguard that I was a Swimming MB counselor and that I could help, I basically became a member of the waterfront staff from Monday to Wednesday, helping with Swimming MB and instructional swim. When I learned of the lifeguard going home, I called her mother and found out it was blood poisoning due to getting her foot cut at the waterfront and the deep mud (18 inches deep in places) that must have been teaming with bacteria. Since I had cuts on my feet, I decided to stay out of the mud on Thursday & Friday to let them heal. Thursday & Friday I helped with knots instruction and flag etiquette in the first year program area. One of our other adults, helped out with the Canoe MB. Like was said, hopefully there were others helping out around camp. Well, it seems the consensus is that this is too much to just overlook. I think Ill mention the option to contact the SE and/or the Camping Committee regarding the problems that we experienced. Thanks for your thoughts, ASM59

BrentAllen, That was it. I had an apostrophe and a dash in my subject line. I took them out and everything is OK. I was able to post a new topic. That never occurred to me as a potential problem. Thanks... ASM59

Hello, We just finished up at our local council camp. It was one of the worst camps from an organizational stand-point that I've ever been a part of. For example: - At check in, they were making all boys and adults take their temperature. They were not using probe covers on the thermometers that they used. They were wiping with an alcohol pad and rinsing with water. When it was my turn, I confronted them and was told that BSA National was mandating that temps be taken if youd had flu symptoms in the last 2 weeks. Other Troop leaders were very angry as they had been told they must take a temp or be sent home. - There was only one lifeguard at the water front to teach Swimming Merit Badge. She ended up with 15 boys in the first year program (about equally split in three different swim ability groups) and 3 other scouts that signed up for Swimming MB. She was expected to instruct the Non-swimmers and Beginners in instructional swim and teach the Swimming MB to this group of 18 boys in a one hour period. All of the other lifeguards (except the one in the tower) had been given other duties or MB's to teach and could not help. It was a disaster for the boys taking the MB and very stressful on Staff. - This lifeguard ended up going home on Wednesday evening with blood poisoning (from a cut on the foot and mud at the waterfront). The first year Scouts ended up with all their Swimming MB requirements signed off on Thursday, by the Staff that took over. My Scouts that were in that program tell me that they only did about 1/3 of the remaining requirements, not all the ones that were signed off on their blue cards. - On Friday, the first year Scouts did their 5 mile hike (this is why all their Swim requirements had to be finished Thursday, no one informed the Swim MB counselor that these scouts would miss swimming on Friday). On the hike 8 boys and 2 staff got lost. The main group returned to the first year program area, but the lost ones did not. Staff sat for an hour and did not notify anyone. There was no trek plan filed. When the lost ones found their way back, they did not go to the program area as they were supposed to, so a count of Scouts and Adults was never taken. There could have been missing Scouts and we wouldn't have known till a Scoutmaster missed one at dinner 3 hours later. Fortunately, all Scouts did come back. - On Friday, the camp ran out of ammunition for the rifle range. Boys taking the rifle MB were unable to finish qualifying. - On Family night two of our families were told they couldn't purchase meal tickets because all available meals had been sold. These were families with small children who had come out to visit their son and who had pre-registered so meals would be available. Apparently there was nothing in place to track who was pre-registered and who was not. So, many families were turned away that night and either had to go without dinner, or had to go off-site for their dinner. After the fact, we found out that 50 meals went un-sold, even though families were turned away. - We spoke to several staff members who were worried about getting fired as a result of not getting their paperwork (MB cards and such) done on time. They worked on the paperwork during meals as they had no down time otherwise. There was no time to interact with campers and get to know them. The staff seemed to be quite stressed. I could go on, but these are some of the major problems. It was like the Program Director and Camp Director had never put together a week of camp before. I know this is not the case as both are returning this year. I cannot explain why there was one problem right after another. I guess my question is; can all of this be chalked up to it being the first week of camp? Should we give them some slack? How much slack do you give? Thanks, ASM59

I just tried to spin-off a new message, and yes I did select a forum for the spin-off from the drop-down box. I received this message: Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e10' [Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver]COUNT field incorrect or syntax error /forums/post_library.asp, line 91 I have now tried posting a new topic from 3 different computers in different locations. I always get this message when posting a new topic or when trying to spin-off a new topic. When posting a new topic, I do not get a drop-down box to select a forum. When spinning-off a new topic, I do get the drop-down box, but I still get the above message. Apparently, I can still reply to topics that have already been started. Any help is appreciated... ASM59

Sorry, but this is when I try to post a "new topic" using the "new topic" button. I do not want to "spin-off" of another topic, but I want to create a new topic. As I stated: When I select the "new topic" button, it automatically says which category it will be posted to based on which category I was in. For example, if I am in the category "Camping & High Adventure" and I select the "new topic" button, the page that comes up says that I am posting a new topic to "Camping & High Adventure" I do not see a drop down to select any other category. Again, any ideas??? Thanks, ASM59

My last attempt asking for help. Anyone have any ideas to help me? see last 4 posts here Thanks, ASM59

Does anyone have any ideas??? see my last post. Thanks, ASM59

Maybe someone can help me, but I cannot see the pull-down menu that you refer to???? Where is it (or where should it be)? When I select the "new topic" button, it automatically says which category it will be posted to based on which category I was in. For example, if I am in the category "Camping & High Adventure" and I select the "new topic" button, the page that comes up says that I am posting a new topic to "Camping & High Adventure" I do not see a drop down to select any other category. Any ideas??? Thanks, ASM59

OK, I've been trying to post a message all week, but keep getting the message: Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e10' [Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver]COUNT field incorrect or syntax error /Forums/post_library.asp, line 91 Others have received this in the past. How did you overcome it? Please help. Apparently I can respond to a post, but cannot create a new thread... Please help! ASM59

Hello all, I am looking for someone in the Auroa, IL area (or any part of the old Two Rivers Council area) who may be interested in some old patches. Preferably this would be someone who would be connnected with Three Fires Council who would be able to dislay them somewhere for others to see. I would even be open to someone with a unit who is interested in Scouting history and who would display them in your meeting place for others to see. I was given a box of old Scout stuff that contains patches and slides from Two Rivers Council: "Two Rivers Council" shoulder patches "1971 Fall Out Camp In" patches "Two Rivers Council Camps" patches "Two Rivers Council - Chin-Be-Gota Chief Shabbona" patches "Kishagamie 106" lodge flap "1971 Klondike Derby" patch "1981 Spring Camporee" patches "1974 Spring Camporee" patches There are also some "Two Rivers Council - Chin-Be-Gota Chief Shabbona" coffee cups and some misc. slides. If anyone is interested, please let me know and I'll get the items to you. ASM59