ASM59

The conclusion that I draw from the article is that some of the most critical brain development happens during the time that we have an influence on the boys in Boy Scouts. We get them at age 10-11 and the article points out that it is around the time of puberty that "brain sculpting" begins to take place. The article also points out that the way youth (preadolescent and into their teen years) spend their time seems to be crucial. Activities they are involved in help to guide the development and connections in their still developing brains. Those connections that are used and enhanced, will survive into adulthood and those that are not used will "wither and die". So youth should be involved in activities that will benefit them and will lead to a more productive adult life. I have always believed that Scouting provides an avenue to reinforce beneficial behavior that can shape young boys to become a more productive adult. This article just summarizes this and discusses the physiology of it all. As a side note regarding the discussions about the existence of God: I have a friend with a doctorate in adolescent development. His doctoral thesis was on the topic of mentoring youth (he is a youth pastor). Without going into the physiology of it all he has come up with much the same conclusions as are outlined in this article. Rational thinking begins at about the onset of puberty. It is at this time that concepts regarding things like the existence of God or even our own purpose can begin to be grasped. And yes, much of this falls to the teachings that that child has grown up under. ASM59

We normally do have a higher turn out for camp. We have 2 boys whose families are having bad financial problems. When approached to discuss the possibility of getting a "campership", they insist that the financial problems are not the reason that their son is not going to camp. We also had 2 family vacations scheduled on top of our camp week after the week was reserved (one of those families has 2 boys in our troop). And finally, we have two boys who are out of state staying with their father for the bulk of the summer. I just found out that one of our other boys is now going, so we have 13 boys going now. With 13 going to camp, 3 on vacation, 2 with their father and 2 with financial problems; that accounts for all 20 of our normally active scouts. As for the other 4, they are older scouts (15-17 year old) and busy with other things. They show up once every 2 to 3 months or so and parents continue to pay their recharter fee... ASM59

Our Troop has about 24 registered scouts, with 20 of them being regular attenders. We only have 12 attending summer camp this year. 12 to 14 seems to be the number that we normally have attending our regular monthly outings. Planning and preparation for the next outing usually takes place in the meeting prior to the event. Typically there will be 4 to 6 scouts at these meetings that are not going on the outing. We seem to have difficulty finding something to occupy the boys who are not attending the outing. Our PLC has planned to have 2 or 3 meetings to prepare for Summer Camp this year. Our SPL and ASPL have put their hearts into some plans and want to get the others "on board" to make our camp-site look great, make new patrol flags, etc. Since so much time will be spent on these preparations, I am afraid that the boys who are not going to summer camp will feel like it is a waste for them to come to our regular meetings. I am sure this is not unique to our Troop, so I would like to know how your Troops handle this situation. What can we have these boys doing while the rest of the Troop is planning / preparing? ASM59

I was wondering at what time of the year does your Troop begin serious discussion about summer camp attendance. For example, letting the boys know where your troop is going, how much it will cost, picking merit badges, etc. Do you typically have a parent meeting to let them know or do you combine this type of information meeting with a Court of Honor? Thanks for your input... ASM59

We had a boy come into our Troop from the local Pack a little over a year ago. He came with warnings from his Webelos leader that he doesn't listen to leaders, is disrespectful, breaks as many rules as possible, and none of the other boys in the den liked him. We had a total of 7 boys come in from Webelos that year and they were all put together in the same Patrol. After only 3 months we put into place a written disciplinary policy, for the first time in our Troop's history; all because of this one boy. He initially pushed the limit of the disciplinary policy; the next step being a 2 month suspension. Apparently, the fear of that suspension did something to change his attitude. He began working with the other boys, listening to his leadership, and generally becoming a much more likeable young man. Today, he has earned the respect of the other boys around him, even at school. He has earned back the trust of the leaders as well. His negative attitude is all but gone. Could be that he has just matured over the last year, but I really think that seeing that disciplinary policy in writing and seeing that we were serious about enforcing it was what pushed him to change. ASM59

I personally don't have a problem with going to an amusement park. There are those however (like one person on our committee) who may have a problem with such outings. I had no data to back up my suspicion that other Troops do similar outings. My comment about "SM initiated" was a reference back to the same person on our committee. This person means well and is correct that this is supposed to be "Boy lead", but as was suggested by "SR540Beaver"; "the boys ... didn't know it was a possible option". We actually brain stormed this idea on our outing last weekend. I was playing the devil's advocate in this case with our SM, and I told him that I'd see what you all thought about doing this type of outing. Keep your comments coming. I'm interested in how you do this and any advise you might have...

I just want to agree with a couple of comments: Amount of clothing to take (northern Illinois): Wear full scout uniform to camp. Pack: 2 pairs of long pants (jeans), 3 pairs of shorts, 5 t-shirts, sweatshirt and/or a light jacket, a change of underwear & socks for each day, 2 or 3 extra pairs of socks, rain gear, swim shorts, extra pair of shoes, also aqua shoes if allowed for water activities. Don't forget other essentials like flashlights, batteries, two towels & wash cloth, soap, shampoo, and items that may be needed for merit badges (first aid, emergency prep, ...). Again, refer to the Handbook. Garage sale & Thrift Store clothes for summer camp: This is a good idea. Each of the last three years, my son has purchased all his summer camp clothes (except for socks and underwear) at a local thrift store for under $10.00. Most of the clothes came back in good enough condition to be used for the rest of the summer and into the beginning of the school year. Communal Showers: The boys hate them. Our local Jr.Hi.School and High School have private shower stalls, so our boys are not used to this. Most Boy Scout camps tend to have the communal type showers. Regardless, we expect our boys to shower daily, and tell them it is OK to wear their swim shorts into the shower. Our local council has a lake swimming area only and this requires that the boys shower every day. It also helps their swim suits not to get too stinky through the week if they wear them into the shower. Plastic Bags: We advise our boys to pack each day's change of clean t-shirt, underwear, and socks in individual ziplock bags and to pack extra pants & shorts in other separate plastic bags. Keeps them dry if it rains and helps the boys to be organized. ASM59

Another question for you all; Our SM has recently decided to put together an outing to one of the Great America theme park near us. The trip will be at the end of June, sandwiched in between our "normal" June Camping outing and our July summer camp week (Camped on June 3&4, Great America on June 24, and summer camp on the week of July 10). Later in the Summer he wants to take them to a water park. For the time being, perhaps we can ignore the fact that this is SM initiated rather than boy initiated. I was just wondering if any of you take your Troops to places like water parks or amusement parks? If so, are there problems with getting tour permits? If not, do you see a problem with this as a Scout outing? Thanks, ASM59

If you can make it, go to Carter Caves (as was already mentioned by SMT376). There is a wide variety of Caving that you can take part in at this park. 1)-Along some of their hiking trails are caves that you can go through yourself. There is no way to get lost in these caves. They are simple single path caves with only a few short dead-end side passages. They are great fun to go through as a group, but make sure to get your hiking permit from the office first. 2)-There are guided tours of X Cave and Cascade Cave. Each is lighted with finished walkways. 3)-There is a guided tour of Bat Cave as well. This cave has not been modified with walkways and hand rails and has no installed lighting. You go on the tour with your flashlights only. The standard tour is not too difficult and only has a few passages that require squating or crawling as the ceiling gets pretty low. 4)-There is also a guided crawling tour of the Bat Cave. I haven't been on this tour, but I've heard it's great fun. http://parks.ky.gov/resortparks/cc/index.htm ASM59

I was reading another thread, "Youth Protection in Latrines" and was reminded of something that happened two summer's ago. I'd be interested in all your opinions about this situation: At Summer Camp, one of our 2nd Class Scouts was taking the Astronomy MB. This required 3 or 4 night time hikes during the week. The hikes started at about 9:30pm and lasted until about 11:00pm. None of the other boys were interested in walking him down to the hike start point because they'd have to miss out on the evening events in our camp site and later in the week, they were interested in getting to bed before 11:00. Any way, since I am interested in astronomy I volunteered to go on the hikes with him. As it turned out, the MB counselor was there each night as the only adult with about 12 boys including our scout. This is another case where there would have been many boys with one adult if I had not shown up. My question is regarding my having walked up the trail and back each evening with our scout. Is walking alone with a Scout on an open trail in a full campground a violation of the G2SS? In a Youth Protection refresher course that I took last year, I was told that this was a definite violation. The assistant at the training disagreed and said that it was more important that we did not have the Scout walk alone to the hike. In a case like this I do not see the benefit in forcing another Scout to go with the one taking the MB, nor would I have wanted to tell this Scout that he couldn't take this MB. What do you think? ASM59

Here's my 2 cents... What this whole matter comes down to is integrity! The desire to follow the whole law should be at heart. Our society is set up in such a way that if we disagree with a law, there are ways to attempt change. But, adherence to the law is still mandatory, until such time as that law might be changed. Just because you are not caught making the illegal U-turn, or just because the policeman did not stop you for going 5 miles over the speed limit does not mean that you did nothing wrong. You still broke the law. And if you were transporting Scouts (or any children) at the time you have set a bad example. Breaking the law is breaking the law, shoplifting may not be as serious as murder, but it is still wrong! I believe most if not all Scouters out there are great volunteers who have the best interest of the boys and the Scouting program at heart. One possible problem here could be our society and how ethics are taught in our schools and universities. Right and wrong are not always taught as right and wrong. Rather degrees of right and wrong are discussed. And lets not forget gray areas; whats wrong for one person may be not be wrong for another. As pertains to Scouting; rules are rules. Perhaps some of the problem might be ignorance. If we do not seek to find, read, and understand the rules, we cannot apply them. It is our responsibility as leaders to make sure that we have read and understand the rules. If we do not agree with a rule, we should petition to see that rule changed. In the meantime, we must follow that rule if we are to be a good example to our Scouts. Perhaps this is for another thread, but there do seem to be some rules that are somewhat ambiguous and can be interpreted differently by people. As long as someone has sought to understand and is applying that rule to the best of his/her ability then I think they are doing just fine. & btw dont forget; James 2:10 ASM59

We have a new Scout in our troop who joined 2 months ago. I am not sure of all the reasons, but he has not completed the "Protect your Children..." Pamphlet Exercises that are to be done with his parents. His parents have been informed that these must be done. The boy is being honest that his parents have not taken the time to do this with him. He seems so anxious to get this done, but says his parents just haven't given the time to help. All his other "Scout" requirements are done except this one. Have any of you encountered this type of problem? I have had cases where it takes a couple of weeks for them to remember to do it, but never two months... Any hints about how to handle this? ASM59

I guess I need to look more closely into this. Our former SM wouldn't allow any of these to count due to the direct benefit to BSA or due to the service being a part of normal "religious" activity/requirements. As a side question: Do your Troops offer service opportunities to the Scouts? We to have outings each year that focus on doing some service work; Trail creation & trail maintenance at a local Christian retreat center, City Park clean-up, Streets clean-up, and more... ASM59

Thanks for all the input. To answer the question about the type of advancement, they are all activity pins. He apparently worked with Mom at home over the summer to complete a few things from Den meetings that he missed last year. For example, one of the activity pins (Artist??) requires that the boy draw a silhouette. This boy was absent the day that this was done, so he did it at home with Mom. This seems to be one of the requirements finished at home that is not being accepted. In answer to, Is there a reason to be suspicious? I dont know of any, but Im not that close to the situation. For now, I am trying to stay away from the issue unless my son is asked to help. Hopefully that will happen in the context of Den meetings with the Den leader present, so as to avoid any problems. Thanks again for the input. ASM59

Hello, I have a general question about advancement sign-off for Webelos. First, a little background; I am an ASM in our local troop, it has been 4 years since I was a Webelos Den Leader and longer since my last "Cub specific" training. We had the mother of a Webelos Scout from the local Cub Pack come to our last Troop meeting. Her reason for visiting is that she really wants her son to get his Arrow of Light in February. She contends that her sons Den Leader is not accepting her word that some of his advancements were completed at home. These advancement requirements were make-up work that he missed when absent from some meetings. My question: Should a Webelos Den Leader take the word of a parent regarding some of his advancement requirements being made-up at home? Our answer to her was that she should take the matter up with the CubMaster and/or Committee Chair. As my son is the Den Chief for her sons Webelos Patrol, I assured her that we (myself and my son) would do everything in our power to help her son meet his requirements for his Arrow of Light. I told her however, that anything we do must be done with the knowledge and approval of his Den Leader. Any advice??? ASM59

Phillip, In answer to your last question "Would you find a product like this more beneficial than TroopMaster?": I don't think the web-based services are portable. So, you can't use them at a meeting or outing. I find the portability of TroopMaster very handy. Attendance and advancement can be updated at meetings and outings on the spot. To your point that everyone has access over the web... With the "DotNet" add-on for TroopMaster, anyone within the Troop (Scouts, Parents, Committee, Scoutmasters ... ) can run the program and if they have a web connection they can view advancement details. Only those with the correct password can make additions or changes to the data. One downfall with this in TroopMaster is that you are not limited to looking at your own information (hopefully this will change in the future). Because of this we have decided to limit distribution of the program and access to the data to the Committee and Scoutmasters. Monthly, our Advancement Chairperson or Scoutmaster can e-mail advancement progress reports to each Scout or parent from within the TroopMaster program. Those without e-mail get a printout at the next meeting. Overall, I would agree with eagleSM's enthusiasm for TroopMaster. ASM59

Hello, Here are my thoughts for what they are worth... If you have a large unit, software (or a web based service) can be a real time saver when it comes to advancement tracking, recharter, & paperwork. I would think that a web based tracking tool like "ScoutTrack.com" has it's advantage in being on the web and available to all who need access to it. A down side is that it is not portable, you need a web connection to use it. We use TroopMaster software which is about twice the cost of 12 months service from ScoutTrack. For a little more, you can get the add-on feature "DotNet" for Troopmaster. DotNet allows the data file to be stored on an ftp site so anyone who needs access can get to it on the Web. We use this feature so Scoutmasters can enter data as well as Fundraiser and Advancement Chair. Also, the program can be loaded on a laptop for use at meetings or outings. Afterwards, the data on the ftp site is updated and available to all who have access to it. I like the portability of the stand-alone programs, but if your unit doesn't have the cash to purchase the more expensive program, the web based service might be a good start. ASM59

I agree with you Eamonn. All of us have a common love for the program that we are apart of and for the youth that we and that program serve. I respect anyone who is willing to give up a part of their life to serve the youth in these programs. I tend to always think the best of people and their motives. I dont usually take things personally when someone disagrees with me or says something to me about the way I do something. I dont know where I get this from; must be a gift from God. In fact, I think this tendency helps when it comes to working with kids. They can say some mean things but I never take it personally. A good friend who works as a counselor has told me in the past that more people need to be like this. And that if offended, you should go to that person and say, When you said ______ it made me feel ______. Is that how you meant it to come across? In my opinion, using this simple template could help. I would bet that 90% of the time that offence is taken, that the person on the other end really hadnt intended to cause that offence. Even if they did intend it, I think later they wish that they hadnt. As Ive said in these forums before, We should be able to discuss our disagreements openly and honestly without anger. ASM59

Ditto to what Packsaddle had to say. Eye contact is important, especially for those with a severe case of ADD. I had to deal with a boy like this all week at camp one year. After explaining something to the group, I'd usually catch the ADD Scout, make eye contact, and explain things again. If this was not done, you could bet every time he'd not do what he was supposed to do. Be patient, many of these boys will outgrow much of this over time...

I must disagree FScouter, the Troop paid for Dad to go, he should be able to perform a few tasks that the SM or ASM asked him to do. I fully understand that he may not know enough about how a campout runs to pitch in on his own, which is why (I would think) that he was assigned a job to do. Knowing that the Troop paid my way, I would want to help in anyway possible. We have a policy in our Troop that says, "Leaders, Scouts, and Parents must conduct themselves in accordance with the Scout Oath and Scout Law during any Scouting function". This Dad was not setting a good example to his son or the other scouts at summer camp and was not following Scouting principles. I might give him a little slack if he paid his own way, but I would still hope anyone in the campsite would want to help... Just my thoughts...

Our Troop policy on this requirement has always been that the Scout show improvement, not in all areas necessarily, but at least in one or two of the areas. Most Scouts do not show improvement in pull-ups or push-ups, but usually show improvement in two or more of the other exercises (walk/run, sit-ups, & long jump). ASM59

Thanks for all the input. kenk - I think you've missed the only option that works in view of Youth Protection; the boys share a tent and the adult has his own tent or shares a tent with other adults. Based on the reading from the G2SS, "It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent approved adult". Nothing here necessarily indicates that this person be a legal guardian. boleta - Thanks for the information about your Council's policy. Perhaps I will check for a similar policy within our Council. "UNCOMFORTABLE!" I would be too, and in fact this happend once with me on an outing, but I had no idea that the boy slipped in with his father during the night until I woke up the next morning. Anyone else have any information about the Webelos:Adult ratio? Thanks, ASM59

We have had a question come up that none of us with BALOO training are sure about. We (Boy Scout Troop) have invited a Webelos II Patrol on a campout. Unfortunately, adult supervision is a problem. With 8 Webelos in their Patrol, only 3 parents (one of which is the Den Leader) can make the campout. There are many issues in each family which result in the lack of Parental participation, all of which are legitimate and unavoidable (I won't go into all of the reasons but they are real). My question is regarding a statement made by our former Scoutmaster. His understanding from somewhere is that Webelos do not need to have a one to one adult ratio for campouts. He seemed to believe that one adult to two or three Webelos is sufficient. In looking through the G2SS, I found: "A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent approved adult. Joint Webelos dentroop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips." Note, that is is not necessary that they be under the supervision of their parent/guardian, but that they are to be under the supervision of an adult approved of by their parent/guardian. So the question is, "What is the ratio of Webelos Scouts to Adults?" We have a couple of Pack Leaders that can attend and are approved of by the parents who cannot attend, but we don't know what the ratio should be; 1:1, 2:1, 3:1... Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks,

Thanks again for the advice. We just finished an improptu meeting of the Committee and Scoutmasters that was called by our Charter Representative. She, being very wise, sat everyone down and without making accusations, instructed the whole committee regarding their positions and responsibilities. She went on to point out that she has final approval regarding any committee position and must see to it that the committee is functioning properly. She strongly urged structured meetings and that everyone learn to work together. Our Committee Chair seemed to understand and agree that these changes would be good and that he is willing to work toward making the changes. There's hope! Thanks, ASM59

Thanks for all the great advice. BW - I shouldn't have been so cynical of the training tapes. They give all the hows and whys, but all of our trained adults came out with the feeling that they (the tapes) are unrealistic, too perfect. Nevertheless, I do appreciate that all of the fundamentals of putting things together properly are there. I have shared some of these posts with our other adults and the wheels are turning; things are making more sense. Keep the advise coming. ASM59