ASM59

I mentioned contradictions... Well, last night I was at one of our Scout's Eagle BOR (He made it). Our District Advancement Chair said that she disagrees with the Council Advancement Chair. She said that Scoutmasters should be able to make the determination whether or not a scout has shown "Scout Spirit" based on participation in Troop meetings and outings, as well as attitude while at meetings and outings. We, the adults of our Troop, are really struggling with this issue. We all believe in the Scouting Program, and want the rank of Eagle to really mean something. We have several Star & Life Scouts who will soon be considering completing their Eagle requirements. We also have a few Life Scouts that have been inactive for a long time and are making noises like they want to finish their Eagle requirements. In fairness to all Scouts, we would like to come up with some type of standard so they know where the limit is, but I understand we cannot do that. We cannot quantify what is required to be active, so some feel that it's OK to use a more subjective approach and say a Scout is not showing Scout Spirit based on his participation. But there again, we are forbidden to define what enough participation is, leaving it up to a subjective interpretation by whoever happens to be the Scoutmaster at the time. So, here we are again with contradictions. This time the contradictions are not in the published material, but in the interpretations of the printed material by our District and Council Advancement Chair Persons. ASM59

Thanks for the feedback again. CNY... The Council Advancement Chair has stated that the following is true according to National: "Active mean registered. For a leadership position, it mean assigned to that position, period." He sites the following from National in the way of documentation: "Please see #33088F, The Eagle Application, 2006 Requirements, and the Scout Handbook. In that order of precedence, as they do contradict each other." So, the short answer is that he says these statements are written in BSA policy. Venividi... I would tend to agree, but we have no adults in our Troop who have helped to take a Scout from Life rank to Eagle. I have been reading, asking questions and perusing the internet for information so I can run an informational seminar for the Boys and parents and Troop Leadership regarding this subject. I asked our District Advancement Chair to sit in on my seminar, and shared my PowerPoint slides with her. She shared it at the Council Level and I have been informed of errors; "we cannot consider any boy that is chartered to be inactive, nor can we not approve his requirement for POR if he was not removed for lack of fulfilling his duty". So, here we are, only trying to do what is right by National, Council, District, Troop, and the Scouts (contradictions all the way - Oh What Fun). Our adult leadership feels that if we have no more control over it than this, that Eagle rank no longer has any validity and has lost its significance. ASM59

In re-reading my last post, I should have said: We can set requirements regarding a particular POR. If the Scout is not performing his job, he can be removed from his POR. If however, the Scout is not removed from his POR and he holds the position for the required time, he is considered to have fulfilled the requirement. ASM59

Beaver, Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right from the standpoint of holding a POR, but if you mean active in the Troop/Patrol that's a horse of a different color. I have been told that any Scout on the charter is to be considered active (even if he has not been there for 2 or 3 years). We can however, set requirement for what is considered active when a Scout is holding a POR; if I understand correctly... ASM59

Thanks for the responses. Beaver, you stated: "If they came back a month later, they can re-register and pick up where they left off. That being said, they will have to be "active" if they want to advance or be considered for leadership positions. They can't be gone for nine months and show up for elections and throw their name in the hat or ask for a BOR for advancement." According to our Council Advancement Chair, providing that a Life Scout fulfilled his 6 months of active participation and held a position for that time, then you would have to give him a BOR if he came back to re-join. For example; I have a Life Scout who is 17 years old, has not been to a meeting or outing since he was 13, before he stopped attending he was PL for 6 months, his mother has paid his dues and recharter every year that he has been inactive. Even if we did not notify Mom last year about recharter or if we called Council to have him dropped, he could rejoin at any time, finish his Eagle Service Project and get his BOR. Same thing holds true for one of our Star Scouts that has not been in a meeting or on an outing for just over two years and was dropped from the charter this year. As long as he held a POR long enough to meet the requirement, he could re-join tomorrow and expect a Scoutmaster Conference and a BOR next week. At least this is how our Council Advancement Chair explains it... ASM59

Hello, I am going to open this discussion again regarding what does active in the Troop mean, as I think this has a new twist: I was talking a few days ago to our Council Advancement Chair about setting standards with in a Troop for what Active means. His response was that "active" means "chartered". So, as has been stated here many times, as long as a Scout is chartered, he is to be considered active. He did add one more thing, "It is the Scoutmaster's responsibility to remove any Scout from the Troop if he is not active, or not to allow them to recharter if they are not active." He based these statements on what he learned at a BSA National Advancement (Eagle) Training Seminar that he attended. So, my question is about Scouts who have parents that pay to recharter each year, but have not participated in any meetings or outings (zero) for two or more years. Is it really the Scoutmaster's responsibility to have him removed from the charter, or not allow him to recharter? ASM59

Hello, Our Troop has always tried to keep costs as low as we possibly can. A typical two night camp out will cost the boys about $7, depending on where we are camping. In January, we use the facilities at a Christian Retreat Center for free; the boys are only charged for food (we have a relationship with this facility; we have created and maintain a nature trail and do other projects for them and they let us use the facility). There are additional savings in that our CO pays for each member's recharter and Boys Life subscription every year. We have always felt that based on the above that the purchase of a Scout Uniform Shirt (all our Troop requires to be in uniform) is not much to ask. This year is different than any before. We have 4 or possibly 5 boys whose parent (single moms) can barely afford the outing costs. Two of those Scouts have had to have Troop assistance to attend several of our recent outings. We do not live in a "rich" area, nor would I consider it an impoverished area, but these Moms are doing their best and struggling. I have managed to uniform these boys for now by visiting thrift stores and EBay and having the Troop purchase patches. One of the shirts is quite small and I need to locate an adult small or medium for one of these Scouts, but for now all are uniformed. I have a new sense of empathy for those who have made the case for the expense of uniforms, but I think in most cases there are ways to get everyone uniformed. ASM59

Hello, Swimming at our camp is in a lake. Since most, if not all, of the Scouts are in the lake during the day, we feel it is important that they wash regularly with clean water (and soap). We have also had complaints in the past about stinky tents and boys. So we have adopted the following rules (suggested by our PLC a few years ago) for Summer Camp Hygiene: -SPL or his designee will take a group to the showers every morning - gives scouts the opportunity to shower if they want to. -All Scouts will shower at least every other day - On Wednesdays, if you did not shower Tuesday evening or Wednesday morning or look dirty, you will shower prior to families arriving for Family Night. Note; showers at camp are communal (not private shower stalls) if you are uncomfortable with this you can wear your swim suit in the shower. -You should bring a toothbrush & toothpaste and plan to use them. If you forget to bring them, you can purchase a toothbrush & toothpaste from the troop for $1.00. -You should bring and use deoderant. -Do not wear wet clothing. Plan to change out of wet clothing immediately after swimming or showering. Wearing wet clothing for an extended period of time can cause chafing. -If you do not bring your own powder, powder is available from the Troop for use in helping to prevent or sooth chafing. -Dirty clothes should be put in a plastic bag and not left lying in your tent (it makes your tent stink). If dirty clothes are wet, you should hang them up to dry before bagging them. ASM59

The King and the Wall A long time ago, a mighty king decreed that a very high, impenetrable wall be built around his most prized castle. The workmen began immediately. Several weeks into the project, as the king was preparing to leave on a trip, he noticed that the work had stopped. The King called the head workman over to him and asked why the work had stopped. The workman replied, Sire, our desire is to serve and to do what you want, but we have no more stones to use to build the wall. We have looked all over the region and cannot find any more stones. Now the king was normally very kind and reasonable, but he was stressed out over his journey, which would be quite long. The king replied, I want this wall finished when I get back, and I dont care where you get the stones to finish it! Several months later, the king returned from his trip. As he rounded the hill in front of his castle, he saw the highest wall he had ever seen. As he approached, he noticed how strong and richly ornamented the gate was. When he arrived at the gate, it was announced that he had returned. The gate began to slowly open. As it opened, the King noticed that something was wrong. His castle, which should be in the middle of the wall, was gone because the workmen had used the stones from the castle to finish the wall. Leadership is not just about making demands, but about helping to enable those you lead to do what needs to get done. And sometimes to roll up your sleeves and help get it done.

By the way, I agree with both ..Beaver and Backwoods on their comments. The only reason I am using the term "too aggressive", is because I am not convinced that this boy realizes how he comes accross to the others when he acts that way; but I'm still not convinced that the opposite is true either. No matter if he realizes it or not, it does not lessen the severity of the offense and the fact that others are feeling threatened. We have already decided that we need to shadow him on any activities that he may be doing. But how to do so effectively is a question. It could be that during "free time" with the boys in sight of the campsite you still may not catch everything that happens. ASM59

Evmori, Exactly what he is doing is not 100% clear. He seems to just be playing around like the others, but goes too far. For example, The Troll Bridge Incident: We built a nature trail and bridges over some ravines for a Christian retreat center in our area. We were back to do some trail maintenance in November. The boys were out playing at a bridge that has been named the "Troll Bridge". One of our Scouts came back to the campfire area and reported that HE was pushing him around. Several minutes later, another Scout came back and said HE was picking on him. I sent the SPL to the woods where the bridge was and asked that all the boys to come back. I talked to several of the boys who were there, none were really aware of the problem except for one who said that HE was getting a bit rough. I found that they were using the Troll Bridge as a fort and had built another fort further down in the ravine. They were basically sending "spies" from one fort to the other and attempting to steal building supplies from each other to reinforce their own fort. This led to some tug-of-wars over materials and I'm sure this is where the boy in question got too aggressive. After talking to all the boys in general about "nice play" and getting along, I talked to this boy. When I told him that we've been getting reports that he is getting too rough, he teared up and claimed he was not. I've worked with kids for over 20 years now and can usually tell genuine tears from forced/faked tears. He was either genuinely hurt by the accusations or had me totally fooled. So, this is our delima... ASM59

Fling... Thanks for your comments, I understand (only because of my involvement in these forums) that it is normal and healthy for Webelos to be allowed to explore their options. I was extremely disappointed by our committee on this matter. I really believe they see things differently now. Our core adult leadership are friends outside of Scouting and involved in the same Church (not our CO). I really believed that if I stood my ground that they would come around and they did. Now that I think about it, it is more important to me that these adults have changed their way of thinking than it is that the boys decided to join our Troop. Having both is a great bonus! ASM59

Good Day, We have a situation within our Troop in which one boy is constantly being accused of bullying. Our boy leaders are not seeing it, our adult leaders are not seeing it. But, on every outing we seem to have an incident with this one boy, and not always with the same other boy. The incidents seem to me to be just overly aggressive "play". When this boy is confronted by the leadership (boy or adult) with the accusations, he tears up and acts genuinely hurt. I think he is used to getting his way no matter what, and that leads to an aggressive nature when he is out with the other boys. Without seeing what is happening, it is hard to deal with the situation(s). I am thinking about a Scoutmaster conference with him at our next meeting, but am not sure what I'll say to him. Any experiences or thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, ASM59

Eamonn, sorry for sealing part of you title, but it sparked a question in my mind; How do other Troops deal with the integration of brothers in the Troop. Two of our seven new cross-over Scouts are brothers of existing Scouts in the troop. Big brothers have expressed their concern that "little brother" not be put in their patrol. In the past I have had brothers beg to be in the same patrol. Obviously, there are different dynamics when it comes to sibling relationships. We plan to put all seven in a NSP, but had there been 4 or fewer new Scouts, they would have had to be integrated into existing patrols. So, the question is, how do other Troops handle the integration of Brothers in patrols? Do you let the brothers decide? Do you always put them in separtate patrols? Just curious... ASM59

Yes, nice post and good thoughts. OJ's experience must be somewhat unique since he was so involved in Council/District activities as a Cub/Webelos. I find it very impressive that he was willing to go somewhere other than where his friends were going. He must have been very confident and out-going. We have 7 new cross-over Scouts (6 from our local Pack, one from a neighboring town). Since we have 7, I think we will create a NSP. These Webelos have been on several outings with us over the past two years, but still don't know the older boys very well and are pretty close to each other (6 of them have been together since Tigers). If they start out as a NSP, should they stay together? Or should they be integrated into the existing patrols at some point? ASM59

SWScouter, I think you are absolutely correct. The younger Webelos look up to the Boy Scouts. I always encourage our boys to pay attention to the Webelos on our outings and make them feel welcome. When doing Activity Pins for the Webelos, our SPL has in the past assigned a Boy Scout to each Webelos to help make them feel welcome and to build a relationship. After all, I believe it is all about relationships. Even if a Troop gets a boy from a Pack, he'll never stay without building relationships and feeling like he belongs. Thanks for your perspective. ASM59

Lisabob, I did want to thank you for your comments. As you can see in my last post; I believe that we (the Troop) have tried to foster good relationships with the local Pack, by providing Den Chiefs, providing service to them in the form of helping with events and campouts, and inviting them on at least two joint outings with the Troop each year. I think the shocker for our Committee is simply the fact that no one in the past had ever considered driving to another town to take their son to another Troop. After much time our Committee now understands that this is more normal than we are used to in small town America. Thanks for your comments regarding the things that Troops and Packs can do to help. It would help if we all (Packs & Troops) could follow what you suggest more consistantly. ASM59

An interesting perspective GWD... Also, sad that you cannot have involvement, yet the Troop offering no help is getting the boys from the Pack. It doesn't seem to be normal in our area for Packs and Troops to be chartered with the same CO. But, I guess a similar thing holds true; if you are a Webelos II Scout in town A, you will be going to the Troop in Town A. This is just the way it has always been. Keep the comments coming, I'd like more perspectives on this... Thanks, ASM59

For some reason, I cannot "spin-off" a new topic. This topic is supposed to be a spin-off from another: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=124180 I wanted to take the discussion in another direction. Background: We live in a smaller town (pop.4000). There are towns of similar or slightly larger size 4-5 miles away in several directions. Our Troop has always received Boys from the Pack in our town every year. The truth of the matter is that most parents will not drive 5 miles (10 minutes or more) each way to deliver their son to a Troop meeting, so we had never experienced the local Pack looking at other Troops as a possibility for their "graduating" Webelos Two Scouts. In the last year or so, we have had the situation where they have looked at a Troop in a neighboring town. Our Troop Committee felt some offense at their doing this, but now understand that this is more normal than we have experienced in the past. I wanted to ask how many of you are in the same situation as we are in our town. For example, there really isn't much of a possibility that Webelos would look at another Troop as a possibility. Some of you are in larger towns where there may be more than one Troop and/or more than one Pack. In that case, what is the relationship like with the Pack(s)? Is there "competition" between the Troops to get the Webelos from the Pack(s)? What is the relationship (if any) between Troops that are in the same town? Your thoughts on this are appreciated... ASM59

---------- Dan, Harsh words, my friend... Unfortunately you don't know the situation and it turns out that it really does stem from a disgruntled former Scout's mother and what I call "adult politics", but the truth is the truth even if you are too disconnected from the situation to see it. By the way, my use of the term "feeder pack" may be mistaken. I have seen the term used in other threads and thought it was a generic term for the Pack with whom your Troop works and where new scouts, who had been Webelos, come from. So, my appologies if I have misused the term in any way or have offended you with my misuse of it. ---------- We are constantly at work with the boys to deliver a quality program in our Troop. We have outings every month, PLC meetings every month, weekly meetings, and organized service work for our CO and a local Christian ministry organization. The Troop has been steadily growing over the last 3 years, due in part to several Scouts that have joined without having ever been in Cub Scouting. Our Troop of about 16 active boys (now 22) provides 4 actively participating Den Chiefs to the Pack in our town. We help the Pack with their annual Pine Wood Derby and have always participated in their Blue & Gold Banquet. We have also gone as a "support team" on some of the Packs family campouts; providing our Troop trailer, equipment and some of our Boy Scouts to help with meal preparation. So yes, we have always tried to maintain good Troop relations with the Pack and provide as much help as we can, and for the right reason. Which goes to my point that I made with our Committee; we need to serve (without promise of the reward of new Scouts), we need to follow the Scout Law (be loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind...), stay on the high road... When I say they have seen the light, what I mean is that some of my good friends that opposed me over inviting the Pack on outings have appologized to me and said they were wrong, and acknowledged that they were wrong to feel that way. They did this before the boys decided to join our Troop, so it wasn't that they saw the light only because we receive something in exchange for our offers of service. I have great hope for our committee. I think they have come a long way over the last year in seeing what needs to be done and in the right spirit; the spirit of Love, Service, and Scouting... Thanks again for all your comments... ASM59

I think our Troop Committee has "seen the light" now. And I think we understand why this all happened in the first place. It was like I said, "adult politics". Mom and Dad of one of our former Scouts didn't care for the fact that we had to get on to him for his behavior and language at every outing. They also were upset when they were asked to pay 3 months back dues. They pulled him out of our Troop and he joined the Troop in question and the next month, he was the new SPL. I now know that the Troop was falling apart and his mother joined the Troop committee and Dad joined as SM (Mom is also on the Cub Pack committee from our town). She has friends on the Pack committee including the last two year's Webelos Two Den Leaders. Last year's Webelos Two leader is also working with the Troop in the other town. It seems that the Troop in the neighboring Town is now made up of a few adults and 4 or 5 boys from our town - no boys from the town where it is chartered. The SPL from the other Troop who used to be in our Troop, has dropped out of Scouting now, so I don't know the status of the Troop. The Webelos Two leader this year gave up on pushing the boys in her Den to the other Troop when her son decided that he didn't want to join Boy Scouts. Wow, I hope that all makes sense; if not I'm sure it'll air on a Soap Opera some day... ASM59

Thank you all for your posts, you didn't let me down. I purposely left off the ending of the story just to get all of your opinions on how this situation should be handled. And now for the rest of the story... I let you know that in the spring we had an outing with the Webelos and I was informed that there was an effort to persuade the families to have their boys join the other Troop. This past December, our Troop Committee called me into a meeting specifically to ask me if I planned to have the Webelos at our "traditional" Webelos/Troop outing in January. I was told that they had a problem with my allowing them to be there. I let them know that this program is all about the boys, and NOT about adult politics. I informed them that we are supposed to be here in a "service roll"; serving the boys. I further advised that the boys on the PLC decided unanimously that the Webelos should be invited, and that I intended to help them run the best program for the Webelos that we ever have. I was asked again, "Why?" I said that we need to always take the high road and put our best foot forward. We did have the January outing and it was a blast. All of the boys had fun and learned a lot. I had the privilege of giving Scoutmaster Conferences to all of the Webelos present (part of AOL requirements now). Each boy expressed his desire to join Boy Scouts, but I didn't want to put any pressure on them with regard to which Troop, as I didn't know what their parents plans were for them. I found out from the Webelos Den Leader two days before Blue & Gold that her son decided not to join Boy Scouts and that all of her other Webelos would be joining our Troop. Last weekend our Scouts and I received 6 new Scouts from the Pack. Thanks for indulging me, feel free to make more comments... ASM59

Hello, Our Scoutmaster bought some Badge Magic last year before Summer Camp. He used it to apply some patches to his Son's new uniform shirt. As far as I am concerned, he ruined the shirt. Where the Badge Magic spread out beyond the edge of the patch, there is a permanent stain (it looks like the fabric of the shirt is wet). The patches seem to be adhered pretty good, but if you ever need to remove the patch, I'm not sure how you would do it. I really think the patches should be sewn. I can sew a council patch, numbers, and a position patch on the arm of a shirt in one evening while watching television. I have taught boys in our Troop how to do it and they do just fine. If Boy Scouts can learn, I would assume that Cub Scout parents could also learn. It really doesn't take that much time and can be done while sitting in front of the TV. Just my thoughts, ASM59

I wanted to get your impression/comments on the following: We live in a smaller community (pop.4000). There are towns of similar or slightly larger size 4-5 miles away in several directions. Our Troop has always received Boys from the Pack in our town every year. Some years 2 new boys cross over, other years there may be 7 or 8 that cross over. We have always included the Pack on at lease 2 joint Webelos/Boy Scout outings per year. The "big event" is held in a "retreat center" in January; with competitions, skills development, and shameless plugs to try to convince the Webelos to join Boy Scouts. We have had as many as 50 Scouts, leaders, and Webelo parents attend this outing. Last year (Jan 2005) we did such a good job of convincing the Webelos that they should join Boy Scouts that all 5 second year Webelos decided they wanted to join. In February, we went to the Blue & Gold Banquet to receive the new Scouts. After the ceremony, I went around to the tables to talk to the boys and their parents only to find out that the Webelos Two Den Leader and some other Pack Committee members had convinced all of the boys' parents that they should join another Troop in a neighboring town. Our Committee was devistated. Our CC called the CC of the Pack to ask if we'd done something wrong that caused them to alow this to happen. We received no appologies, only comments that the boys decided where they wanted to join. Last Spring (our other traditional joint Webelos/Boy Scout campout), I was the lone wolf among the adults saying that we still need to invite the Webelos. Our committee and some of the boys wanted nothing to do with the Pack. They thought that we should not help them at all anymore. I kept asking what part of the Scout Law that supports, and eventually they gave in and we had the outing. On the second night of the outing, just before bed, I was talking to one of the Webelos Parents. He said that there was a deliberate effort on the part of the Webelos Den Leader to convince the parents that they should have their boys join that same Troop in the neighboring town. I asked the Den Leader about this the next morning, and she said that she just wants the boys to know all of their options. I would like some comments regarding this. Like, How would you react to having helped this Pack over and over and have them deliberately send their boys to another Troop. There's more to the story, and an ending I'll share later... ASM59

Great, thanks for the story! Last weekend we had 5 boys crossover at the local Pack's Blue & Gold. Next week, we have been invited to another Blue & Gold by another Pack to receive two boys who are crossing over to our Troop. All 7 very enthusiastic and full of energy, lots of energy!!! ASM59