kraut-60

Some who have weighed in on this matter seem to have no sense of what a uniforms designed purpose is, so I will attempt to illustrate that here. An older,battered copy of the Websters dictionary defines "Uniform" as;1:having always the same form,manner,or degree:not varying or variable 2:of the same form with others:conforming to one rule or mode:consonant 3:presenting an undiversified appearance of surface,pattern or color 4: consistent in conduct or opinion. Uniform n: dress of a distinctive design or fashion worn by members of a particular group and serving as a means of identification. Wow! uniform means all that. I dont personally know any of the folks who have posted on this topic, and I respect everyones opinion regarding this subject. However, I feel the continued resistance to correctly wearing our uniform does nothing to further the scouting movement. As to the individual Venture crews uniform choice(s), I am all for these folks either using the existing uniform or designing their own. I do caution them to not take the idea of casual to an extreme. After all, wearing a polo shirt and shorts to a wedding or any other formal affair is just showing little to no respect for the event or its participants. No harm can come from our setting a proper example for our scouts to emulate, our scouts deserve the respect the uniform will afford them from the public. With all the black-eyes and bruises the BSA has had to endure, we should show our solidarity with all our fellow scouts and scouters by letting the American public know we still stand for whats good and right and by letting them see us, in uniform, in public, proudly wearing the visible proof that WE BELONG! If you cant adjust or handle wearing a uniform,then perhaps you should remain quiet about your misgiving and fears of what wearing a uniform means to you, or if you cant remain quiet and respectful of those supporting the uniform method,...then hopefully you may find what you seek in scouting elsewhere in a less stringent youth movement. Thank you MV for your comments.

MVscouter, you are welcome, my pleasure to support your point of view in regards to correctly wearing a uniform. I intentionally left absent "BSA uniform" from the previous sentence to stress the matter that ANY uniform should be worn only one way(preferably) and that is correctly. Too often in the scouting movement today,the issue of uniforms is relegated to the back burner and mostly forgotten in light of other more pressing matters with regards to scoutings needs. The "its close enough" school of thought is rampant in scouting, especially in Cub Scouts where a Cub in a pair of uniform pants is rarer than an honest politician. Cub Scouts is where the boys should be encouraged and praised for their willingness to wear the uniform, but what usually happens? I think we can all answer that without burning up too many bits of gray matter. The parents are reluctant to purchase more than a shirt and maybe a hat. Why? Because the habit of wearing a complete uniform died out a long time ago,and no one wants to bring it back. How many sports programs will tolerate incomplete or sloppy uniforms? Try none. What marching band program will let a member slide if they show up to a performance with only the headgear and jacket and a pair of non-uniform jeans? Zero point zero. These are all other positive participation youth programs that REQUIRE correct uniforming in order to participate, and most parents have no problem with the issue of uniforms for them. So why is it that the uniforms of the scouting movement get short changed so regularly? I wish I knew, but I suspect it is not the youths refusal to wear the uniform, it is the parents and LEADERS refusal to support the uniform method and the habit of wearing a uniform. How serious would you take a deputy sheriff who was only wearing his uniform shirt, duty belt,hat and a pair of old corduroys? What would be your opinion of a member of our armed forces on their way through an airport wearing the class'A uniform blouse,service cap and some raggy pair of baggy shorts. All these examples would call into question who these people are and what are they doing, bottom line...we do not give them respect but instead doubt them by how they appear to us. Our scouts deserve to ENJOY the respect that comes from a correctly worn uniform. Maybe our society feels it has moved beyond uniformity in its youth scouting movements, what a shame if it has. The scouts can only stand to benefit in the publics and their own eyes from appearing to be with no doubts, members of the BEST youth movement in the world.

Greetings all. The troop I serve in is able to come up with a BoR "on demand" and does pride itself in being able to do so under any circumstance. We have normally taken advantage of using our troop committee members as they tend to hang around during the weekly troop meeting. this works very well and has the beneficial side effect of drawing our committee member/parents into taking an active part in troop function. We have just this month taken in 4 new scouts who crossed over from Webelos, who having earned the Scout rank will be recognized at a CoH at the end of the month. Also, to be recognized are the new scouts parents. We do this by presenting to one (or both) the scouts parents a new troop committee insignia. We then tell them its up to them to get the shirt it goes on and if they get the shirt to please take time and fill out an adult leader application. We waive the adult leader fee for new scout parents. We have had good results from this approach as we are never at a loss for parent support in our troops activities and projects. Our troop committee is also looking forward to taking the troop committee challenge to further their ability to serve our scouts as best as is possible. Just as an example of a BoR on demand, a BoR was assembled in less than 20 minutes at last years scout-o-rama for a star scout candidate. The board was composed of the COR of our troop, the CC of one of our neighboring troops, and the councils district commissioner. The scout passed the board and noted they were very thorough in the material covered. The board members noted that the scout was well prepared and ready to be advanced. we advanced the scout immedietly following the board in an informal troop ceremony. The scout who was advanced as well as the rest of our scouts thought it was "way cool" to get the BoR and advancement done when the opportunity was availible. I'm sure some who post here may find a flaw with what our troop did, but I feel that we do a good job with our scouts and their parents.

Death to the uniform police....death?, isnt this a bit extreme of a perspective directed against those scouts and scouters who take pride in wearing the uniform correctly? "A Scout is Friendly....courteous....kind.." Ok, some scouts and scouters can be seen to be wearing incorrect or misplaced insignia. Some here feel thats no big deal, ok, you are free to have that perspective. But just the same, having a "who cares and what does it matter anyway" attitude towards what some scouts and scouters consider correct(ie, wearing the uniform properly),and then posting under such an un-scoutlike term as "Death To.." What is up with this? I take pride in wearing the scout uniform the way it deserves to be worn, correctly with the insignia I rate worn in the designated places and appearing neat and clean. For those who seem to feel that the uniform is un-important and have the attitude that it doest matter, may be in need of revaluating why the uniform exists in scouting and if their cavalier attitude towards uniforming may adversly affect a scouts attitude toward accomplishing ANY given task or challenge correctly. I've said this before. The uniform method is the EASIEST method to practice of all 8 given methods. Imagine if we applied the "whatever you want as long as it makes you happy" attitude to the other 7 methods. If my rant here qualifies me as part of the uniform police, then so be it. I could think of worse things to be. Uniforms are part of this youth movement. Just wear them....correctly ok?

Yes, I own both the older green tie as well as a rarer tan tie. I normally reserve their wear for more formal events like CoH,B&G and cross-over ceremonies. I only wish that the current uniform shirts had the proper collar for wearing a tie. The older olive green uniform shirts are made for a tie, and look very sharp with it too I might add.

I find it perplexing that the city of SF has the negative feelings its purported to have now, you see, when I visited SF as a crewmember of both the USS Lynde McCormick and the USS New Orleans during the city's annual Fleet Week celebrations in the late 1980's and early 1990's, we were treated well by all we met. The ships crews were required to wear their uniforms while on liberty and there was no adverse feelings or hostility directed at the sailors that I can recall. In fact, the program to invite sailors out on the town or to a private home for dinner were very popular. I had heard that there were more folks signed up as hosts than there were sailors willing to be guests. Keeping to topic,...I cant help but think how a Sea Scout Ships crew could benefit from the presence of an older Naval vessel as a place to meet and learn. By learning, I mean such nautical subjects as small boat handling,marlin-spike seamanship,basic damage-control and firefighting. I imagine a battleship(BB) may be a bit large for a SSS crew, perhaps something like a retired yard oiler(YO),or a Minesweeper(MSO).Just thinking out loud I suppose...but it does pose some positive possibilites. CaptRon;I am glad you are not about to use SF for NGFS practice. I have little sympathy for those as far to the left of left as SF and the aptly named Peoples Republic of Berkley(PRB), just the same they are still citizens of OUR great nation and it would be in bad form to see them come to harm through any terrorist action. We stick together,...or we sink together.

Like many here, I am also convinced that the city of SF has clouded its reasoning with its own special blend of politics along with a touch of 60's liberal ideology. As a retired US Navy boiler technician 1st class(BT1sw), I will atest to the enormous cost and labor intense effort just maintaining ANY decommissioned former Navy ship even in a static (non-functional) disply staus. Just ensuring the watertight integrity of the hull on a day to day basis is going to keep several people fully employed, and these folks will NOT be entry level security guard types. Also manditory will be an operable fresh water and firemain system. Lets also not forget the systems to monitor those spaces not regularly toured by the sounding and security watch, which entails yet more expense to purchase and install remote fire and flooding monitoring/alarm systems. I would'nt want to forget the ships electrical system either, granted it will only be used for interior lighting, but is nonetheless essential and costly to keep up as it is not at all like the electrical system in most homes. Lastly, the upkeep and preservation of ANY ships interior and exterior surfaces is an ongoing job that never goes away or is done. After all, a ship exists in an environment that is not friendly to metal. The cathodic protection sytem HAS to be kept operable or else the rust and rot WILL win. I have not wrote this to discourage or be a wet blanket regarding keeping and displaying worthy examples of our proud US Navys ships. I only hope to inform all reading this to the ultimate reality of what it will take to keep such a vessel in the proper condition as befits it.

Hello all, Great topic. In the troop I serve in as ASM we practice patrol cooking as a standard operating procedure for the troop on all outdoor camping trips, and especially for summer camp. In fact, the troop will only choose a summer camp if it offers the patrol cooking option. As such, we do not attend the same summer camp year after year, instead we cycle between 3-4 out of council camps that offer patrol cooking. The patrol method is reinforced by cooking as a patrol. At last summers camp we had only 8 boys including the SPL and ASPL. The SM,SPL,ASPL,and I sat down and had the the SPL/ASPL write up the duty roster to assign 2 boys per meal to cooking and 2 other boys to clean-up. 1 boy out of both cooking and clean-up teams were additionally tasked with fire and water duties. the SPL/ASPL were not assigned cooking or cleaning duties , but were instead assinged the jobs of PL/APL for all meals and other duties. Basically it was up to them( the SPL/ASPL) to make sure the other duties were carried out by the scout assigned to on the patrol duty roster. How did it work you may be asking?....It worked pretty well, yes there were the usual glitches(late to pick-up food at the commisary,food burned to the bottom of the pot,etc...) but overall the best proof that what our scouts learned and practiced was that the SM and myself did not have to chase around getting scouts to do their assigned duties and on Wed. afternoon for the evening meal, the SM and I had to be woken up to eat with the boys (we had done our mile swim that afternoon and were enjoying a well deserved over forty nap). The SPL/ASPL got a lot of day-in, day-out leadership experience, all the new scouts(3)learned how to share duty and responsibility with other scouts and all ate rather well.

I would suggest the 1949 release "Twelve O'clock High' starring Gregory Peck. This film was used by the United States Navy in it's LMET course. I believe LMET stood for "leadership management education training". This film showed several different and varied styles of leadership as part of it's story line. While attending this course, I viewed the film with others in the course and after seeing it we were broken down into small groups to evaluate the types of leadership skills we had seen in the film, and to discuss each styles pro's and con's. The film was also entertaining and would hold a boys interest by its content and the subject matter. I also endorse the film "Master and Commander, Far side of the World" as a good film for JLT in-troop training. While I greatly enjoyed the film "Saving Private Ryan", I dont believe its content would properly convey a lesson or example in leadership techniques. Its a good film, but its more of a journal of the harsh reality of war.I would also digress from the suggestion of "Crimson Tide", the Gene Hackman-Denzel Washington film about a US Navy SSBN. This is a great movie showing conflict between two senior officers during a crisis involving a potential nuclear war scenario, but its content is way over the top as potential material for an example of leadership training.

A uniform is a uniform. I think this is the point many folk dont get. Any uniform whether,law enforcement,military,EMT,or Boy Scout is designed to be in a style unlike that of current clothing that are NOT designed as uniforms. What a shame that some folks simply dont handle the idea of uniforms very well. I agree with Fscout and BP on this one, and EV too. The uniform has never been or will be a hindrance to this movement, I see the real hindrance to be leaders who cannot or will not put aside vanity or a misplaced sense of fashion.

gsmom; When John Kerry met with represenatives of the North Vietnamese govrnment in 1970, was he then acting as a good and valiant man as you have described him here in this forum? I believe he was still at that time a reserve officer in the USN. My understanding of the Uniform Code of Military Justice would sum this up as a court martial offense, I dont readily recall which article such a crime would fall under, but most veterans who are aware of John Kerrys actions in this matter would likely define it as treason, as I define his despicable act of meeting with the Communist members of a country we(the United States of America)were then in a state of war with. As a citizen of the finest country in the world, you have the right to air your views and your opoinions, as do I. But, you wonder how veterans could not support John Kerry? Have you asked any veterans your question? I am a veteran of 20 years active duty service in the US Navy and am also a combat veteran, and I did not cast my vote for John Kerry based soley on his conduct in 1970. Say what you like, treason is treason.

Rip and Owl, you guys are definitely heading in the right direction with your ideas on an outer-wear system. Rip; I like your idea to use an MA-1 style a lot as I have a very "experienced" MA-1, and in short, its one versatile jacket. The reversible color to international orange would be helpful in situations where visibility would be needed. One other thing an MA-1 style could used for is displaying patches, after all, the flight type outer-wear just seems to look "cool" with a couple extra patches on it, and by using velcro, the Scouts and Scouters could vary the patches they chose to wear. Owl; your outer-wear system would be the answer to a uniform and functional need that a Jac-Shirt and a poncho just dont quite cover effectively. I feel that the Jac-Shirt could be a part of an outer-wear system, and it would be welcomed in a shade of green. I'd personally like to see a sweater similar to the USMC style "wooly-pooly" in a shade exclusive for the BSA, and it could have velcro attachment spots for CSP's and unit numbers. I hope the folks in the supply division read these posts too, lets hope for the best.

Our troop recently attended the 11-16-04 NBA game between the Milwaukee Bucks and the New Orleans Hornets at the Bradley center in Milwaukee WI. This was also Scout night as many other Packs and Troops were in attendance and in uniform, as a courtesy, all attending units had there title and number as well as hometown listed on the jumbotron before the game. I felt it was a great time for the Scouts and the leaders. I suppose though that we could have witnessed an example of poor sportsmanship had it occurred that evening. Although poor sportsmanship seems more common these days among pro sports, I can suggest an alternative, visit your closest speedway or motorsports venue. I know that most NASCAR events are rather expensive, but I don't think you will see much in the way of un-sportsman-like conduct. I know there have been incidents between drivers that were poor sportsmanship, but the governing body has leveed serious fines on those who embarass the sport. Our local track, Jefferson Speedway, has a Scout night once during the racing season. The price of admission is wearing a Scout uniform for youth and adult leaders. In the last 2 years, the Jefferson Speedway management has provided a space for the Council to set up a Pinewood derby track and have let Scouts and Scouters bring their cars in to have a friendly night of Pinewood racing for trophies and bragging rights. This feature has also resulted in more than a few Cub Scouts being recruited when the potential recruits learned that Pinewood racing is part of the Cub Scout program. Hope this helps, Will Kirchmayer, ASM T131

Well, I'm sure if you have read any of my posts and don't agree with them, then perhaps I'd be considered A uniform "nazi". As to your question, why not use velcro for positon patches if you are serving in more than one office. I have seen nothing forbidding such an attachment system for Scout badges in general. And as fond of older uniforms and styles as I am, I would gladly welcome supply division offering velcro of a matching shade for the current issue uniforms. I feel such an attachment method would go far towards getting badges on uniforms and having the ability to correct mistaken placement rather easily as no sewing would be needed.

I don't think there are any Cub packs out there that choose to as a Pack to not be uniform. What I can relate is my own experience as a DL and a WDL. The pack my son joined was no different than any other Cub pack I have seen since or before with regards to wearing the Cub uniform,i.e...if you have your shirt-ok,..neckerchief-good,..hat-wow you are happening,...pants? we dont require the boys to wear scout pants, jeans are just fine...yadda,yadda.... I decided I would wear a full uniform and try to set an example. Alas, my example only garnered the boys in the den I led to normally wear at least the blue Cub uniform shirt,neckerchief,slide and for 5 out of 8, the hat. I was told by other pack leaders that I was a little too hard line since I would wear a complete uniform, and also that my den looked great but they dont have to be in uniform for everything (everything was never defined). I heard this line especially from a den leader who ran a monthly den meeting, never wore a uniform herself as she said the colors are "icky". This same DL also didnt make much use of the program either, most den meetings were handled as birthday parties (they were monthly after all). One of the boys in my den had a brother in this persons den and I found this info from the boys parents who complained first to myself at having to send anywhere from $5 to $15 per den meeting for "prizes". Why is this relevant? Well, none of the boys from the "party" den lasted long enough in Cub Scouts to earn their Arrow of Light. I had all 8 of the Cubs I led cross over to Boy Scouts. That crossover was almost 4 years ago and of the 8 scouts that crossed 5 are still Boy Scouts and out of that 5 most still wear only the shirt,neckerchief,slide and hat. One will wear a full uniform, but one is better than none. I am now an ASM of a Boy Scout troop and I continue to wear a full uniform, because its not up to the Pack,Troop,district,council,region,or national as to how to get the Scouts to wear the uniform, its up to the leaders to set an example for the Scouts to follow. Some Scouts follow the example better than others. Some folks seem to forget that the BSA is a uniformed youth movement. If you cant handle wearing a uniform, then maybe a less stringent group would be to your liking.

1986oschamp, you stated just previously you were taught to wear a FULL unifrom to Scout meetings, functions,etc... So tell me, how does a pair of similar styled but not UNIFORM pants from Wal-Mart qualify as part of a unifrom? Ok, they are similar appearing in style and color, great, whoopee even, but they are not uniform. When we as Scouters show the Scouts we serve that "good enough" or "its close enough" is our standard, then can we be dissappointed when they start doing just "good enough' and/or "enough to get by"? Think about it, the Scout uniform is the easiest standard to achieve, one must buy the uniform and wear it properly. That is whats meant to be uniform. No item of civilian clothing I own can give me a feeling of belonging any better than a Scout uniform. The clothes I get at Wal-mart are affordable yes, but is it so much to shell out the bucks to be what we should be, or just "good enough"? Oh, and while I'm at it here, any denim pants would wear wonderfully, but try wearing them after getting them wet. I've yet to see a pair of jeans get reasonably dry once a kid has got them wet, wether soaking or somewhat wet, the denim seems to stay wet all weekend. BTW IMHO jeans as an alternative(and un-authorized) Cub Scout dress option are one of the many things that seem to be keeping many Cub packs mired in mediocrity with parents and new leaders who continue to feel the need to second guess the ways of the BSA as they are so positive they know better, and whats it harming anyway?

Lets see if I have this right, if a certain uniform item has an unsavory nickname, then we should avoid it? None of the Scouts in the troop I serve in that wear the older overseas caps refer to them by any of the "gender or bodily fluid" nicknames attached to them by the military, in fact all the Scouts have called them is "hat" or "cap". One post says that they have a limited value for wear in the field, ok, I'll go along with that as the cap provides no shade to the eyes, neck or ears. Also it isnt very warm, so any Scout or Scouter who is on the ball would'nt pack one for an outdoor event. Seems like its got a few things going for it, first it can be folded over ones uniform belt when not being worn and in this respect is easier to hang on to. Second, some Scouts and Scouters just like its style, I personally feel this style of cap looks a lot more Scout-like when worn with the current uniform than the present issue ball-cap. I like the patrol cap idea with the integral ear flaps, but this cap would be rather warm in the summer months would'nt it? Still I would have one for the cold weather wear. The idea of a BSA "wooly-pully" would be very welcome with this Scouter(I already am using a UK made dark green,not OD wooly-pully),perhaps if this sweater were to be BSA sanctioned, we could have them made with velcro patch attachment areas to allow Scouts and Scouters to wear their CSP's rank and position patches? Using a sweater along with a Jac-shirt would be a step forward as layering has long been a recognzed and recomended way to protect oneself in the cold months. I think a color other than red for the jac-shirt would be a welcome change, perhaps a dark green. I still feel a parka style outer wear similar to what Columbia and other such outdoor wear makers have currently would be a step into the 21st century, especially if this type of coat/parka could be offered as an all year round protection system. I am not up to speed on the types of fabrics that such a coat system would utilize, but if it will "breath" and not trap perspiration and still present a uniform appearance, but be utilitarian first!

My sons patrol chose the name "Rainbow Trout", great name....but no BSA made patrol emblem. Solution-Blank patrol emblem-1" brass and enamel fishing hat pin of a rainbow trout-super glue on back of pin-center on patch-push pin onto patch-bend pin over- sew to shirt(s). Found pins on eBay. There is a supplier there who sells nothing but these pins in lots of styles. Oh, BTW so far the one on my sons shirt has survived 8 washings, no chips or cracks-recomend zap-a-gap thick super glue. Will Kirchmayer ASM T131

NJcubscouter; The popularity of the flat hat in our troop started with a single Eagle Scout at this years Grant Pilgrimage at Galena,IL. This young man was in full uniform and wearing a mint looking flat hat. My son, a new 2nd class Scout, asked the Eagle Scout about his hat and was told that the hat had belonged to his grandfather. My son told me that he hoped we could find a similar hat as he would prefer the flat hat to the current cap. Long story short-eBay to the rescue! Since my son wanted one, I thought I'll get one for myself too as my original flat hat was given to a neighbor boy who joined Scouts after I joined the USN. Since then, our troops 3 newest Scouts have had me hunt down flat hats for them via e-Bay, and just tonight at our troop meeting, the latest large size flat hat that only came in the mail today went to our former SPL. I keep getting requests to locate these great old hats from the boys, and I'll keep hunting them down. The thing I think is way cool isnt just that the Scouts look sharp in them, but the fact that an Eagle Scouts example has had such a positive effect on uniforming new Scouts. One Scouts good example does have a far reaching impact,..awesome!BPwannabe137; I agree with your post and your views on uniforms, especially that wearring COMPLETE older uniforms correctly is a great way to show some class and let todays Scouts and Scouters how we used to look. Uniform heritage is a great concept, I also have an older uniform that is complete and fits too. I plan to put the correct insignia on it that reflects my current position and wear it to roundtable and a couple of meetings. I'm waiting for a servicable tunic in my size to hit e-Bay, and yes, the leaders tie needs to be availible again-along with the sharp chain style tie retainer. Pie in the sky? Yes, I'll have a slice. Will Kirchmayer ASM T131

I am rather partial to the existing uniforms for the BSA as they are now. But I would like to see the old overseas or flat hat be manufactured again. At our recent yearly fundraiser for our troop (an election night chili dinner), my son's old overseas cap was constantly turning up on his fellow scouts heads. It turned out to not be a game of keep away, but a genuine admiration for the older headgear. Since then I have bid on and won several on e-bay, and am selling them at actual cost to scouts in our troop who want to purchase one. A functional but uniform outdoor parka with hood and rain shell would be a welcome item seeing as most scouts choose to forgo the cost of the Jac-shirt. Such a jacket or parka would need to be affordable yet still seem "cool" enough that scouts would really want to wear it and not just to scout functions. Also, as long as we're dreaming here, I would welcome a return of a scouters dress uniform that isnt a blazer/white shirt and tie with slacks. I would like a light jacket or tunic styled coat that would be "dressy" enough for a COH, but still be functional for a roundtable or most outdoor activity, think bush jacket? Well, you asked, and heres what my $.02 says. Will

I was visiting with my District Exec. just the other day at the coucil office when I noticed that the scout shop section had a supply of a patch that is shown in the uniform and insignia guide as "International Activity patch" the listing noted it can be worn on the right pocket of the uniform shirt by scouts and scouters. The DE and myself made a quick check of the current BSA handbook and the uniform/insignia guide but were unable to define what criteria has to be met to qualify one to wear this patch. Now I'm sure that one or several knowledgable readers/contributers to this forum might know what activity qualifies one for this patch? BTW for those w/o an insignia guide, the patch in question seems to be the standard 3" round shape with a field of purple featuring a white cord with a square knot at the bottom surrounding the BSA tenderfoot FDL that uses white instead of yellowas its base color.

Our troop has some older event patches that have become "suplus" for a variety of reasons, scout left troop, didnt want patch,etc... Our solution to avoiding clutter of old event patches is to divide them up among whichever scout or scouts the troop has going to the next jamboree where said patches become trading material. As for the out of date MB's and rank patches, we hang on to them. So far what we have is basically the older "technicolor" rank and position patches that technically could still be used, in fact earlier this year a new scout was presented with the older scout rank (brown FDL on orange) and he loved it, didnt want to turn it in when a current issue scout rank was obtained for him. In fact some older position patches command a good price among collectors, would it hurt to post such patches on a trading site and put the profits back in the troop treasury?

I am a power plant operator for a state university.I served in the US Navy for 20 years and retired in 1996 as BT1(sw).That is USN for boiler technician first class, surface warfare qualifed-enlisted. I am proud to be a scouter and have only benefitted from being a part of the BSA.

I know kids like the current style knit caps worn pulled down. Perhaps supply division could come up with a scout version. Maybe olive green with a red FDL embroidered on it? Would be handy when the weathers cold and would fit in a pocket or pack easily.

When I became a den leader in the fall of '99, I wore the then current issue cub scout cap. The cap was the blue/gold one with the wolf on dark blue emblem. I wore it until the den graduated to Webelos. While a Webolos den leader, I wore the red/olive BSA ball-cap. I still wear the same cap now as an ASM of my sons troop. I chose not to wear the then current blue/light blue Webelos cap as I simply prefered the BSA style and told the boys in the den that the cap I wore was what they could wear when the joined Boy Scouts. While at the Grant pilgrimage at Galena ,IL this sping, my son who doesnt care for the ball cap, seen an Eagle scout in current full uniform wearing one of the older "flat hats" and immediatly took a shine to that great looking older hat. Needless to say, we got several from eBay and have been wearing them to meetings and all BSA events, all the while getting positive comments on them, as well as the question of where to get one.