kraut-60

Hi Greywolf, I was a scout in 1972 when berets were brand new and I was horrified by the first photos I seen of scouts wearing them. Keeping in mind that the year was 1972 most teenage boys as well as most scouts sported longer hair, the berets looked down right goofy to me as they appeared to be flying saucer shaped and the black ribbons at the back just seemed out of place. I wore the older overseas or "flat-hat" cap and didnt even consider getting a beret based solely on its rather peculiar appearance. I did get the first widely issued billed cap which was olive all over with a gold yellow FDL on the front, and it was NOT made as the baseball caps are today. I have in my posession a copy of the official uniform inspection sheet dating from thr early 80's that shows and describes the official headgear as a choice of 1) Red beret 2) Ball cap 3) Overseas cap and, 4) Campaign hat. This same Insp. Rep. showed the uniform to be the "Oscar" style which we still have with us to this day. Even though this is not about berets, I would like to let all know that the overseas/flat-hats that have a solid gold/yellow FDL were made during the late 70's-early 80's and some even featured a red diamond instead of the more common olive-tan diamond. Even though I am not a beret wearer, I support all scouts and scouters who choose to wear one. Heck, I'm just happy to see a scout in uniform...wearing the official hat..alright!...wearing an older official hat?...WAY COOL!! Oh, before I forget...in 1972 I still had to wear my hair rather short at my Dads "suggestion" so I probably would have looked better than the "hippies" wearing a beret....I remember as a prank we sent several berets up the flagpole at summer camp using the black ribbons on the back as ties...looked funny, but not as funny as the pair of LARGE tighty-whiteys someone else sent up on the last friday of camp.

I was in the Sinnissippi council and purchased and wore a very handsome Jamboree fund raiser CSP for most of 2005 and only (reluctantly) took it off to replace it with the CSP of the new Glaciers Edge council I now serve in. The CSP was a green background with a red chevy suburban in red with a yellow FDL on the front dooor and it read "Home of the Suburban", along with a bright red border....one sharp CSP! My council seems to tolerate the wearing of FOS,JSP and other commemorative CSP's and I'm glad we do as I enjoy seeing other sharp CSP's that are issued in our council....diversity rocks! I have even designed a CSP commemorating the old council and plan to have it produced and sell as a fund-raiser,.. and yes, I'll probably wear one also as I am using the older olive/khaki green color as a background color and lettering and numbers executed in bright red with a traditional first class emblem in traditional colors as the center of the CSP. By desinging it thusly, I feel it could be worn on the older uniforms as the city-state strips (as CSP's were once known by) were the same colors I described from 1945-1955. I like the retro look and have heard positive feedback from those who have seen my design. I think the benefit of interest generated through diverse CSP use is positive and and could be used to promote uniforming as a whole. One flavor is never a big seller at the trading post,...but offer some flavors scouts want and they'll buy them, and wear them for pride of ownership or just to be different,..Hey as long as they're wearing the uniform its all good! I guess I would say wearing any CSP that meets standards for CSP design should be good to go,and provided it is issued/authorized by the issueing council.

Thanks Beav!, I'm so broke I cant pay attention so I'll have to see what I can do to satisfy the dues requirement. Oh, I'll pass on the chips and dip thanks, I've got to shed a few pounds for the trek at Philmont in August,..how about some carrot sticks and celery? I would let you know if the "barn door" was open in a polite and discreet way. you are right, the limited choices regarding uniform parts makes it so simple to be in uniform, so why does seem so hard for so few to do it?

I wouldnt go so far as re-tailoring a uniform shirt by removing the collar, but thats just me. I would like a collar that can handle wearing a tie and not look sloppy. The neckerchief would be better served if it were to be again a square of 32" and less decorative and more functional. The neckerchiefs now are too small to look right on an adult of even a small stature. I have found the MIL spec triangular bandage makes a dandy "field expedient" neckerchief that is large enough to be functional and practical. One has only to serge or hem the edges and voila',.. a necker like the old days, and you can make a proper sling out of it too!

Well, here we are again, debating the way to approach an individual in an incorrect uniform, and as I would expect...all the usual suspects are defending the "right" of a scout or scouter to walk around looking like a bag of rags. I see that those posting on the side of "anything goes" or "close enough for scouts" are still willing to pick the fly specks out of the pepper! The opinion of all posting on this are valid and deserve the respect of those responding, but the pontification of several respondents are getting rather old and tired, yes we know you want to do the best for your scouts, bit please lighten up on the measures you threaten to carry out IF the UC/DC/SE/etc,etc..."corrects" a scout. Have you ever considered that the scout MAY NOT have known that his uniform wasnt right and no one in his patrol or troop had yet pointed the error out to him? Drop the high and mighty and my scouts--my way--buzz off attitude....its way old. As for the scouters who are incorrect, well....they are adults right? If they want to walk around looking wrong they should be discreetly told in a polite and non-confrontational way, as after all the scouters are supposed to set the example, lets take care of our own and knock off all the anti-uniform police BS.

Eamon, I am retired navy and served with the funeral detail and honor guards in Long Beach CA. Your Sea Scouts who perform flag ceremonies may consider wearing the dress blue uniform with the addition of white leggings and a white guard belt. If they do wear the white belt, be sure to tuck the jumper top into the trousers and use the belt to cover the tuck-in, it will look very sharp! My son is joining our local SSS and I am sure i will help out as an adult advisor.

I see gaming as little more than an electronic drug addiction. I really believe that the manufacturers are engineering these games to lead people to play them for hours on end and have seen recently where speculation suggested that the levels of dopamine in the brain are higher due to the stimulation these games cause their players to experience. I feel the gaming craze is also taking its toll on Scouts as I have seen the effects of game-withdrawl on scouts out at a camp-out, ie; they talk of games and not about the present activity. These damn games are truly an electronic cancer for the youth and weak-minded adults who indulge in playing them, I wish they had never been brought into existance( the games and game sysytems, not the people who are addicted to them). I am sure I'll hear some flak from some who support this foolishness, flame away....

We had scout who prefered the heavy metal/gothic look and was kind of from the wrong side of the tracks so I can see what you meant in your post OGE, I just hope that a scout wouldnt "need" a smoke (or anything else like drink or...?). Ma Scout; this boys appearance may well be deceiving as to his age, but I'd be willing to bet money he is no older than 14-15. An item the host council had clearly stated in the paperwork at the registration area was that any smoking by scouts and especially scouters (in uniform) was strongly discouraged and would be reprimanded. I suppose the reprimand if any would come about through the hosting council (Blackhawk Council), and I felt though I could have done something, I do see that it was not my place to take it upon myself as the scout was not a member of the troop I serve in. Thanks for your feedback, it is appreciated.

The troop I serve in had adopted the old flat hat or overseas cap as it was called several years ago after my son (then a new 2nd class scout) had seen an Eagle scout at the 50th Grant pilgrimage wearing his grandfathers old scout flat hat. Long story short; my son got a flat hat and soon other scouts in our troop also wanted them, so began the search and buying of them. Our scouts wear these caps usually for meetings and parades but have been known to wear them anywhere. My son brought his best one (he had 2, one mint,one a bit worn) to wear in the parade at the pilgrimage as the boys wanted to wear the hats as they arent very common any more and they like how they look. As it rained just before the parade lined up, my son had put his cap over and around the uniform belt he was wearing while he wore a scout boonie hat to stay a bit drier. As the boys got ready while waiting to step off, my son discovered his cap was missing from his belt. Disappointed? Very, but to his credit he had a good attitude about his loss and even refused the offer of my own cap and wore his boonie while carrying the troop flag. We had 5 of the 7 scouts I took to Galena wearing the same head gear and received several positve comments to which I would like to say thanks, and if anyone possibly picked up a size large older flat hat with no name(but probably damp), I know a scout who would appreciate hearing from you.

I was at the Grant pilgrimage last weekend in Galena IL. where I witnessed a serious breach of scout etiquette on the part of a scout and a scouter. The scouts of the troop I serve were moving to the staging area for the parade when I saw a boy smoking a cigarette. The boy had on a jacket but could be seen to be wearing a tan shirt with a neckerchief visible at the neck of the jacket. What really nags at me know was that an adult wearing a scout uniform was standing right next to this boy and clearly looked at him and did nothing, in fact I frowned at the boy and shook my head (which was noticed by both the scout and scouter) for which I got a dirty look and a wave of the scouters hand in my direction as if to say "MYOB". The so-called scouter was also wearing a jacket that covered any identifying CSP and troop numbers. I mentioned this to the SPL and several of our scouts just to see their reactions. All agreed it was wrong but one scout offered that perhaps what the scout was "smoking" was a fake cigarette sold in the local novelty store. I'm positive it was a real cigarette as the fake ones don't burn down to a shorter length while being puffed on, and I am a former smoker and know what a real "smoke" looks and smells like. I feel something should have been said to the scout but I felt that doing so would be confrontational and possibly would have been taken the wrong way so I said nothing and instead hurried the scouts of our troop along for the parade. While seeing a boy using tobacco is something I can get over, seeing an adult letting the boy do it strikes me as just wrong and does bother me. What do you think should have been done?

Instead of adding yet another insignia that is adult only, why not dig up one of the older SM patches from pre-1969. The SM patch I'm talking about was a green twill 3" circle with a first class emblem outline done in silver thread. 2 borders outlined the 1st class and between the borders the words "Boy Scouts of America was embroidered, all in silver thread. You want a patch for "retired" SM's? Well, use a retired design that is still valid to use. The patch design I'm talking about here was in constant use from 1938-1969, and its a way sharp design.

I think this idea could go over ok depending on what ones profession is. I am a powerplant operator and I dont think my uniform would come out looking too good at the end of my shift. Perhaps a different tack might work. What about wearing the uniform while traveling? You see more than a few of our young men and women serving in the armed forces of our nation in uniform in nearly any major airport daily, would'nt it show solidarity with them if we also wore our uniform while going from point A to B? I can only shake my head in agreement regarding teenagers and uniform wear, man am I glad I'm no longer young enough to be cool. Cant help but think that many of the same teens will find themselves wearing the uniform of their chosen service and will have no choice but to wear it. Nice thing about wearing the BSA uniform in public is that people seem to be nicer to you and generally give you positive feedback for it. Maybe more scouts will wear the uniform willingly if more scouters wear it...correctly.

CajunCody, I am sorry that you were the victim of a "hover mother". I was a DL and WDL while my son was in Cubs and I ran the packs PWD. I heard no end of complaints from the hover mothers as well as the fortress fathers about how their son had been "wronged" during the derby or how come it takes so long, blah, blah, blah..... Cub Scout leaders who follow the program, get trained, wear the uniform and truly lead the pack are never far out the sights of the parents who never step up and get registered, trained or suited up. Such parents forever seem to second guess the program, actively short change it by selectively deleting or adding what they think should be in the Cub Scout progarm, in short they constitute what can be best refered to as a "Hazard to navigation". Keep on doing what you're doing, the light at the end of the CS tunnel is Boy Scouting and while it is not a rose garden, it does seem to have better parents involved with it. Please dont interpret my remarks here as anti-CS, I just feel that I have seen more whacko parents during my tenure as a CS leader than as a Boy Scout leader. Cubbing ran well with positive parental support and involvement is a rare treasure,..too bad what we see more is Cub Scouts who can be more mature than their parents are capable of being.

Well, I suppose another patch for recognition of a leaders commitment to scouting isnt a bad thing, but I cant help thinking that there are several existing awards that have insignia that are worn on the uniform and do we as scouters really need yet another? If my service to scouting were to be recognized and rewarded by the troop I serve in, I would be thrilled to no end by having all the scouts in the troop in full uniform as my reward. I hope to earn the SM knot and the Scouters Training key someday, but I am not presently wearing the CS knot I was awarded as a DL. I received plenty of ribbons in the military that were pretty much "been there, done that" medals. The only military award I really care about still is the USN/USMC Combat action ribbon I was awarded,and it does not have a medal, just a ribbon. What I'm saying is that dont go over the top in getting too much on a uniform, a little goes a long ways. The green square knot and the green and white square knot are my only present goals.

Welcome jmenand, I would not tell you not to wear an older CSP (the council shoulder patch), but if the patch you want is the older red-white strips(RWS), I would put the rws only on an older khaki-green uniform. I am also a fan of the retro look and have designed a commemoritive CSP for our old council that has yet to be made but hopefully will. As for the OA flap, I would refer you to your lodge leadership to answer that one. The only folks who will get their undies in a bundle over what you proposed are the dreaded UP's (uniform police).

I may be able to suggest a flag fold and presentation that would reflect the dignity and somberness that are essential to a loved ones family and friends. I was assigned to the US Navy funeral and honors detail at the former US Naval station Long Beach CA. for almost 3 years, and have served at over 300 funerals during my tenure. I would suggest having 2 scouts fold and present the flag to the girls family. This will require having the US flag draped over the casket. Please ensure that the blue field with the stars is over the right hand side of the head of the casket. This is done so as to ensure that the flags blue field and stars cover the heart of the deceased. Both scouts performing this duty should follow this procedure; one scout should be at the head of the casket while the other scout stands at the foot of the casket. One other scout should face the side of the casket that faces the family, this scout will give the order to fold the flag as well as assist in its folding. The flag should be folded when the minister finishes their eulogy.The scout facing the side of the casket should then cleary give the order " Prepare to fold the flag" at this point the 2 scouts at the foot and head of the will bend slighty at the knees while taking the corners of the flag in each hand. Both should look at each other and nod when they have ahold of the corners and are ready to proceed with the next step. The scout in charge will then order "Fold the flag", the 2 scouts at the foot and head then lift the flag together and stretch the flag over the casket taughtly. They then side-step to the side of the casket facing the family and proceed directly with folding the flag in the normal manner as taught to scouts. The scout in charge will place both palms up and support the flag while it is being folded. The scout who folds the flag should render the scout salute to the scout holding the flag after he finishes his folding. The scout in charge should then briefly check the flag to ensure its correctness and that no red or white is showing, then he recieves the flag from the scout who was folding and that scout should then render his salute. The scout in charge should have the flag in his hands palms up with fingers lightly curled over the edges of the flag. The scout now holding the flag may present the flag to the designated next of kin by bending at the waist and extending the flag. He should also render a scout salute but it should be done slowly and with dignity. When we presented a flag we were required to say "On behalf of the President of the United States, the Secretary of Defense and the Chief of Naval operations, I present you with this flag for the faithful and honorable service of( deceaseds name)". Please accept my condolences and respect for young lady who has left this life way too early, I hope what I have put down here may be of help to you. Also, its very important that all 3 scouts are in FULL and complete uniform. They should also practice this honor duty before attemtping it for real.

At the COH our troop had last month, my son who earned his Star rank on 1-2-06 and had the patch the same night was in the gym of the church shooting baskets while the rank recognition part of the COH was going on. He had been sent there to re-direct folks who went there as the COH was held in a different room and he "forgot" that he had to come back by 7pm. I posed the topic question to a scout yesterday and in the scouts opinion receiving your rank badge as soon as they earn it is important to them,they know the card and pin will be at COH. I was told they like getting the patch first so it can be sewed on before COH.

My truck....my tunes...the blues cant lose! I generally listen to classic rock stations,but when the reception goes south so does the music, I will put in some real blues like Muddy Waters,Howling Wolf,John Lee Hooker or just a blues greatest hits that will cover all the greats. So far the scouts dont seem to mind and most of the blues discs I've heard dont need an "Explict Lyrics" warning on them. We have even ad-libbed some blues that reflected on the week-end we were coming back from. I tried the "punishment" music thing once, didnt work well..I had heard enough loud debate so I popped in a tape I made from an old album of my dads...German Army Band Vol 1 (recorded in 1961 and had NO nazi marches-only traditional soldiers sing while you march tunes). Both my son and the other scout thought the tape was kinda cool. I guess I'll try a bit of some Scottish bag-pipe band music on them next time!

There are two sizes availible at our council store,the normally seen "mothers" pin and a larger pin varying in size from about 3/4" in diameter to over 1" for the 1st class pin. I dont see very many full size rank pins being worn by boys. The pin can be seen in the current leaders catalog on a scout wearing the expedition hat, dont recall the page offhand though.

Oops, sorry Dug, I meant to pose the question to Vigil Hiker. Did think it would be great to take a uniformed troop to Gettysburg though, just wish the PLc would want to do it.

You are right about the neckers Dug,the issue one is all but worthless for most uses. The PLC in our troop has proposed getting full square 32" neckers made for the troop. I have found the old OD MIL.type triangular bandage hard to beat as an all round good emergency sling or ankle wrap, and it makes a dandy "drive-on" rag too as well as being able to roll and wear as a traditional necker(while not being so small as to appear ridiculous). As a Philmont vet Dug, what would your opinion be on taking a long sleeve uniform shirt along on the trail? I'm considering this for the trek I'll be on later this summer.

This scout was unjustly judged and wrongly forced out of what may be the best place for him to be, a scout patrol/troop environment. Is the scouting experience only for the goody two shoes and those with unblemished "permanent records". What really stinks here is that a "Hover-mother" and/or a "Fortress-father", took their suspicions along with a heaping dose of hear-say and came up with what amounts to a steaming pile of innuendo. If a scout gets into trouble with drugs, we should do ALL WE CAN to retain and guide them back to the trail thats straighter and narrower. I can understand removing a scout from a camp or event if he brought and used drugs, but it would demand an immediate SM Conf. as well as a review by the troop comittee and COR. The only expelling should be for leaders who would bring and use drugs to a scouting event, and I especially mean the legal drug...alcohol. I have heard all too often of the so-called leaders that broke out the "secret" cooler after the scouts were bedded down so they could enjoy an "adult" beverage. Any scouter who cant go without a beer for a weekend may need to talk with this fellow named Bill W.or his pal Dr. Bob

I really have to agree with Anarchist here. Being able to immediately hand a scout his newly earned rank patch is very good for a scouts morale when he has completed a BoR successfully, as well as showing the rest of the scouts that progress is recognized ASAP. I believe we should be able to mantain an on hand stock of no more than 2 of ranks Scout through Life. This would ensure the ability to award when completed as well as allow scouts who own both long and short sleeve shirts to keep their uniforms current with their earned rank. Our troop practices immediate recognition while still getting the Advancement report in to council within 48-72 hours. Yes, we have been able to maintain a stock of rank emblems, but we have them under lock and key. Not to be a UP, but the large 1st class pin is as stated for youth wear on the campaign or expedition hats, but only by youth who are 1st class rank. I believe the program was/is called "First class emphasis" that laid down the requirement. I think it gives the scouts a visible goal to shoot for, and though its just MHO,the First class emblem has always been the insignia I most associate as representing scouting,..I remember fondly when the 1st class emblem was the center of all the leaders patches with only changes of background color and color of the outline/eagle and-or wreath surround/lack of wreath surround identifying ones position without needing an embroidered title on the patch.

As most other troops do, so do we travel in field uniform (1/4 to full, depends on which scout or scouter). Seems that most of our scouts remain in at least 1/4 field or 1/2 activity uniform for the rest of the weekend/event. We do request field uniform for morning and evening colors as well as the evening meal. Most scouts comply with only a few having to be reminded. Our troop generally tries to inspect the packs of its newer scouts prior to their first overnighter and summer camp. This is conducted by the PL and SPL/ASPL. We try to discourage the wearing of jeans as once they are wet they seem to stay that way all weekend or 3 days(whichever comes first). In lieu of jeans we prefer the uniform pants or pants of a similar color that are quick drying and zip-off if possible. Dont discount the uniform pants for camping, they will dry a lot faster than jeans and from personal observation of my sons wearing a pair throughout last years summr camp, thay did not not shred, disinegrate or fall apart from normal scout wear/use. That is to mean crawling/rolling/falling/running/walking on the normal terrain of a summer camp here in WI. I myself pack/wear only uniform items for all our camps/events. Might as well wear them and get some use from them, Right? I've had one pair I bought new in 1999 that have yet to rip or implode due to normal to heavy wear, but they are a bit faded and rather comfortable. As for the {GASP} uniform police....I can only hope some imaginative scouter with a gift for ad-libbing will take Cheap Tricks "The Dream Police" and come up with some more...shall we say..ah, fitting lyrics. hmmm???

I will state here that I would NOT approach ANY scout or scouter and attempt to point an error or errors in their uniform. I am in agreement that to do so is wrong and not scout-like. Now, without trying to patronize or sow the seeds of resentment, I will go on record to state that my personal point of perspective, is that more than a few scouters and scouts do not care to wear the uniform correctly and in fact seem to enjoy doing so as it flies in the face of the rules and to allow them to visibly flaunt their individuality. I have worn a uniform from the first time I joined Cubs, through Boy Scouts and while serving our country for 20 years in the US Navy, I will continue to wear the BSA uniform and I pity those who will wear it any way but correctly. I prefer to believe that most of todays scouters realize what a uniform means, and I will continue to believe the best about others until I am shown I am wrong. I continue to feel that the uniform is relegated to the back-burner when the matter of its meaning and importance is brought up in these forums. While the BSA does not require a uniform of any of its memebers, I believe a uniform should be required. To me, its a visible commitment to live up to the points of the Scout law and oath. As far as resentments go, I have several myself but none are directed at any one person. But I do resent the over-stated point of the BSA is not the military. Is something wrong with the military? Why does this point come up when adherance to rules or regulations are in question? I feel our country is a better place to live(freely) thanks to our military, and I am proud to see when our former scouts choose the military over a 4 year extension of adolescence at some college or university when they age out of Scouts. I firmly believe that a 4 year hitch in the service will do more for ANY 18 year old in becoming a responsible citizen and productive member of our society.