KoreaScouter

Twocubdad; I fell into this thread a little late; please excuse my late weigh-in. You said that you don't think the average 19 year-old military recruit cares about the morals of the person working next to him (or words to that effect). I couldn't disagree more. While the typical 19-year old working at a fast food restaurant or hanging out at home may not care about the morals of the person next to him on the fry line or across the street, the typical 19-year old military recruit is different. He does care about the morals of the people he works with, and things foreign to many teenagers, like duty, honor, loyalty, and right/wrong, are tremendously important to him -- it's a main reason he joined in the first place. That's why acts such as adultery, which has lost most if not all its stigma in society, is a punishable offense in the military, as is faking sick to avoid work, disrespecting a superior, and other offenses that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in a civilian environment. Please don't assume the 19-year old who just made your sub sandwich is wired the same as the 19-year old who's NEO-ing Americans out of Liberia -- they ain't. BTW, the pilots do give a hoot who works on their planes, and not just whether or not they can turn a wrench... KS

Using the car analogy, a better point is that Spork's troop is trying to drive a car with a manual transmission as if it had an automatic transmission. Can you do it? I suppose so, but it puts a lot more wear and tear on the transmission. Can you operate a Troop with more than one Guide? I suppose so, but it too puts strain on a structure not designed for it. Ditto to all BW said about the Troop Guide. Without knowing Spork's troop or their culture, it appears by electrons that what they really have is one Troop Guide, and a lot of Instructors who wear Troop Guide patches on their sleeves. What they might consider is designating just the Guide to the NSP as the Guide, and the others as instructors. That's perfectly permissible, clarifies the role of the Guide, doesn't diminish the Green Bars' positions, and renders moot the question "What do we do with all these Guides?". Just my opinion, I could be wrong... KS

It's actually a patch, worn on the adult or youth uniform on the right pocket, where temporary patches go. In my last council, we had to attend a district or higher event with Scouts from another country. Easy to do in Korea, and most of our adults/youth earned the patch several times over. KS

With all the other experienced, qualified leaders, they asked you...there must be a reason. I believe it was Gen Patton who said "...never take counsel of your fears...". If you know the areas in which your experience, talent, or training is a little thin, find and work with people who can fill the gaps. You're surrounded by them -- we all are, but the best leaders spot them and use their abilities. The Scouts are incredibly resilient; they will be as patient with you as you are with them. Don't scream unless it's a bona fide emergency. The investment you make in training the SPL, PLs, and their assistants will pay off a hundred-fold as you see meetings and events run well, and as you watch the Scouts grow in confidence and ability. Good luck. KS

I won't presume to list the attributes of great Scouting leaders, 'cuz I'll likely leave at least one out. I think that an important one, though, is flexibility -- particularly if you have a volunteer leader who's "growing up" in the program along with his/her child. The amount of adult decision-making and parent interaction at the Daisy/Tiger, Brownie/Cub, Junior/Webelos, and Cadet-Senior/Boy Scout levels are radically different. Or, at least they should be. I've seen growing pains involving Cub leaders who move to Boy Scouting with their son, yet still want to operate as if they're in Cub Scouting -- incompatible. If you can get the leaders to shift their paradigms as they move through the program levels, that's a significant accomplishment. KS

"Lost in America" starring Albert Brooks "The In-Laws" (the 1979 version with Peter Falk and Alan Arkin, not that poor remake that came out this year) "...Serpentine, Shel, serpentine!) "Mr. Mom" starring Michael Keaton and Teri Garr. "...220, 221, whatever it takes."

Several posts late in this thread ask if we're overly focusing on earning Eagle as the primary purpose of the movement. When I hold conferencs with Scouts and ask them their goals in Scouting, most tell me it's to earn their Eagle (I suspect some say that simply because it's what they think I expect to hear). I counter that by suggesting that Eagle should be an intermediate goal, then discuss the palms, OA Service Corps, Philmont Staff, and adult leadership opportunities. I think the risk we take when we declare earning Eagle as the culmination of one's Scouting experience is that after one earns it, there's nowhere else to go from the summit except down -- many quit. I'm not trying to diminish the personal accomplishment of earning Eagle, and we should rightly make a fuss over a lad when he earns it. But, rather than setting him up for a letdown afterward, how about portraying this as a lifelong thing, beginning with the new Scout conference? KS

Look in Troop Program Features, Volume III, in the back. If you use the Troop Meeting Plans from Troop Program Features, the recommended games for pre-meeting and interpatrol activity periods are all described in the back, with materials if any are required. KS

And, another perspective. While I certainly don't begrudge the Scout who earns his Eagle right before his 18th birthday, and I heartily congratulate him, I still consider it somewhat a shame that the lad didn't get to enjoy his exalted status as a youth for a while in a Troop; serving on camp staff as an Eagle, performing as a JASM as an Eagle, etc., etc. KS

I agree that it's the exceptional 13, or even 14 year old Scout who's truly Eagle material. Most I've seen that young, however, are not exceptional in my mind -- the maturity and leadership just isn't there. But, with subjective requirements, it's subject to interpretation by volunteer leaders who in many cases aren't sufficiently trained or experienced, and whose interpretation can be anywhere on a very wide continuum. Ditto for the "deathbed Eagles" (hadn't heard that term before). I see a fairly universal "we gotta help this Scout" mindset among the adults, who seem to forget that the Scout is up against the clock becuase of choices/decisions he made. The example of the lumber delivery is perfect. Nobody forced that Scout to begin his project three days before his birthday...he decided that himself. I saw a perfect example of that in a former Troop. Huge parental pressure with the 18th birthday around the corner, and the Troop leadership caved on a marginal project and questionable participation/leadership. My own son just turned 13 and has completed all requirements for Life except Scout Spirit, SM Conference, and BOR -- very active, went to everything, buddied up on MBs, and so on. He could have done it all for Life by now, but since we were moving and he was still 12 I asked that we wait until his new troop leadership gets a chance to know him, he gets settled in, he gets a little older, and can better handle the pressure and expectations of a Life-to-Eagle situation. Great kid, love him to pieces, but he's got plenty of time, and needs to get more leadership experience and maturity. This should be a marathon, not a sprint. KS

Our last troop's CO was a VFW post, so we did a fair amount of ceremonial/patriotic event participation with them. We didn't practice close order drill, and didn't carry rifles, but were there, in some semblance of order, in as complete uniforms as our lads could muster, and as most of our Scouts came from military families, didn't have to be told to stand still, be quiet, etc. That's okay, and in this case, if the troop isn't replacing Scoutcraft with rifle drills, that's okay too I think. If a prospective member is attracted to the Troop from seeing the color guard, he'll know in a second that it isn't JROTC... KS

It isn't an online source, but Backpacker magazine publishes a softcover book on LNT, which is available from them or you can order from the BSA catalog. KS

Every SM I've met claimed to have a boy-led troop. And, all of them were right, to one degree or another. In my mind, the extent to which a troop is or can be boy-led is situational. With mature, experienced, dedicated youth leaders, you can get a lot closer to a fully boy-led troop than you can with young, inexperienced, distracted or aloof youth leaders. It's important, in my opinion, for the SM to read his situation accurately, then act appropriately. There have been times, for example, when I had to take a more active role in a PLC than should have been necessary -- new SPL, etc. However, my goal in those situations is to work my way out a job. And, I do that by consistently sticking to the program, and using the tools available to develop those youth leaders. Some catch on fast, others never do, and most are in between somewhere. But, I don't measure the success of the program in the short term. I've seen adult leaders make what I think is the mistake of watching youth leaders err repeatedly at the same things, and not model, demonstrate, or train them in better and more effective methods. I don't know if it's laziness or what. KS

In my last troop, we had worn out the TJLT material; that is, most of our experienced Scouts had been through it 3, 4, or even 5 times. We used the recently published SPL and PL Handbooks to create a supplemental training course. It lasts no longer than TJLT does, uses the two handbooks as course handouts (all attendees get their own copy of whichever handbook is appropriate to their position), they're encouraged to write in them (there are fill-in-the-blank pages in them anyway), and we included games and role-playing activities tied to the various chapters. I look forward to seeing the revisions to TJLT... KS

Not knowing this person, I can only presume she fits the "pushy parent" profile. In my experience, reason and explanation of the aims/methods doesn't work on these people...you might as well be speaking Sanskrit. They already know the system, becuase they're skilled at circumventing it by finding the weak link in the chain (youth leader who's easily intimidated, overworked camp counselors who are too busy to notice, non-confrontational registered leader who needs more backbone, etc.) What does work, in my experience, is ensuring that all registered Scouts/Scouters who are associated with advancement are all on the same page, and adhering to common standards. Nobody should think they're going it alone. And, attempts to corrupt the system by anyone (pushy parent, pushy scout, corner-cutting counselor, whomever), should be rapidly shared with other registered Scouts/Scouters who are responsible for advancement. You can bet your bottom dollar that the pushy mom who doesn't get what she wants from one person, will quickly seek out another target -- forewarned is forearmed. Good luck -- got a cranky old unit commissioner you can call in just to have a direct talk with this person? KS

In my opinion, both demonstrate the ability of a young person to set goals and see them through to completion, which requires a focus, dedication, and commitment that is all too rare. I agree with those who say that trying to compare the relative difficulty of the two is pointless. As a side note, my 10-year old Junior Girl Scout daughter earned her GS Bronze Award in June. I can tell you from firsthand experience with both programs, the planning, effort, and communtiy service she had to put in for that Bronze Award, as a ten-year-old, far exceed what we ask of our 2nd Year Webelos Scouts to earn their AOL...my observation. KS

My son will be 13 next month. He too, crossed over from his Cub pack at 10 with his AOL. As is the case with many of you who are Scouters, my involvement and commitment was infectuous, he was very involved with his Troop, and is now three requirements shy of Life (Scout Spirit, SM Conference, BOR). Our last SM offered to do the SM conference before we moved, which would have left just the BOR, but I declined. First, I didn't want to show up at a new Troop and have him hand his new SM who didn't know him, his handbook and ask to be scheduled for the next BOR. Second, and just as important, he's only 12 -- he's got plenty of time and I see no good reason to rush things. KS

Sorry, got into this one a little late. What's the difference between boys-being-boys and hazing? To answer, I'm reminded of the Supreme Court Justice who, referring to pornography, said he couldn't define it, but he knows it when he sees it. I'd argue the same for hazing. So situational, there's no pat answer... KS

I'll concede that MBs aren't the primary purpose of summer camp. But, for those of your trying to ensure they fill slack time with wholesome endeavors, I recommend you encourage your Scouts to get into at least one crafts-related MB (leather/metal/wood). The project work will keep them busy. Especially for the first-year campers, ensure that somebody is providing them topcover so they understand their schedules, are getting where they need to be, and getting done what they need to. Good opportunities for leadership lessons for PLs/SPLs, too -- attention to detail, delegating, multi-tasking. Good luck. KS

On powerpoint slides: - Look at your slides and listen to the audio from the worst/furthest seat in the room and adjust accordingly. - The Times New Roman font looks great on a computer monitor, but often gets illegible on a TV with a VGA converter or a projector. I've found that Arial Bold is much more readable regardless of medium. I love podiums, and we got in the habit of using a portable battery-powered one for ceremonies, COHs, etc. The SPLs really appreciated it; added a touch of professionalism and helped their confidence, too. KS

That's the subjective part. Through 1st Class, it's all about skills and fun (you can tie the knot or you can't, you cooked the meals or you didn't). After that, those Scouts remaining are serious and in it for the long haul (mostly). And, the requirements are replaced with more subjective measurements, such as active membership, and serving in a POR. What do you consider active membership? Does serving in a POR equate to successfully performing in a POR? Again, subjective questions, for which there is no cookie-cutter answer. Every Scout, and every Troop, is different. That said, I think it's important that there are no misunderstandings between adult leaders, youth leaders, Scouts, and Scouts' families over requirements and whether or not they were met. Many troops deal with this by defining "active", and other things, too. The key, though, is not just having a definition, but in communicating it clearly to the Scout and his family, especially if he's in a Life-to-Eagle situation and facing timing pressures. I'm not an advocate of gulag-style applications of this, that allow no flexibility for school, sports, family activities, or other conflicts. I always try to make sure Scouts understand that as in most endeavors, you get out of this what you put into it. And, if a Scout wants to take a sabbatical for baseball season, I tell him I hope he has a great season, and make sure he understands and accepts any potential Scouting tradeoffs as a result of his choice and the Scouting activities he'll miss out on. I had a SPL who did just that a couple years ago, and it pushed his Eagle project, and therefore his BOR and COH, out six months longer than it would have taken him otherwise. He understood it, accepted it, and dealt with it in a mature fashion. KS

A Scout has until his 18th birthday to complete any MB. There are many myths and rumors floating around that you have a year, but that's just not true. There's also no one-year minimum, although several badges (Personal Fitness, Family Life, Camping, Backpacking, Hiking, and others) have individual requirements that can take as long as three months to complete. KS

All my literature is still packed up and unavailable, but aren't the patrol types referred to as NSP, VP, and "experienced"? If my recollection's correct and that's the term, then moving Venture-age Scouts to a VP shouldn't create the dilemma of leaving these Scouts in the experienced patrols, or moving them and robbing these patrols of experience. By definition, the experienced patrol members should have about a year's experience and be at or close to First Class, right? Frankly, I don't see anything inherent in a PL, APL, or appointed patrol POR that requires the skill of a Venture-age Scout to carry out. Fear of failure shouldn't stymie our efforts to develop the lads. KS

I think Venture patrols recognize the human dynamics inherent in teenage vs preteen boys -- others have mentioned. Most of these lads enjoy Scouting and want to stay active, but don't want to be full-time "babysitters" in a regular patrol (their sentiments, not mine). Done properly, a Venture patrol will meet their needs, and the needs of the troop, too. Venture patrols have PLs and APLs, and with their age, experience, and (hopefully) maturity, every other Scout in the VP should have a significant Troop POR, too. The lads don't mind helping the FY Scouts or anyone else for that matter, as the Troop Guide or an Instructor. That worked well for us in my last troop, at both meetings and outings. Our VP got some additional privileges and considerations, based on their age, experience, level of responsibility, and maturity (for example, later lights-out times). Another thing, too. If you insist on leaving Venture-age Scouts in regular patrols, a very awkward thing happens when a younger and/or lower-ranking Scout is elected PL. He's now in the uncomfortable position of having to direct the activities of an older/higher-ranking Scout. Can they do it? Sure. Will the older Scout submit to his authority? Yeah. But, it's not a natural thing for those boys, at school, in their families, in their neighborhoods. It almost always creates tension, and although it's almost certainly not the intent of Venture patrols to eliminate that tension, it's one of the side benefits. I'd recommend a VP, with strict adherence to the program, full involvement, and a very frank understanding up front that formation of a VP will mean more work and responsibility for them versus less. Also, if you have the resources, I'd hang an ASM on them, similar to the NSP ASM concept. Ideally a younger guy, closer to their ages, who can relate better and has the physical attributes to do the activities they plan. KS

I've gotten the same question from MB counselors, camping in particular. I've always given the same advice -- if it was troop or patrol camping nights, they can go retroactive. Now, I encourage all Scouts to begin working on Camping MB early in their "careers". The pamphlet information goes into more detail than the handbook does -- helps set them up for success. KS