KoreaScouter

I have both a Boy Scout and a Junior Girl Scout. I don't necessarily agree that girls Junior-age and up reject uniforms out of hand. If the troop leaders wear uniforms, and if they encourage uniforming, then the girls will be more likely to follow suit. I've also seen more uniforming in troops where the girls have a significant share of the leadership role. I'm not sure why. KS

We've been patients in the health care systems in both the Netherlands and S. Korea. For a variety of complicated reasons, the military health care system can't accomodate everybody's needs in-house, and they contract a lot of treatment out to hospitals on the economy in overseas areas. I'd rather be in an American hospital, no matter how I was paying for it. Last time I checked, people around the world want to go to the U.S. for medical treatment. It may be a crazy, patchwork system, but you can't beat the care you get. I've never been in a British or Canadian hospital, but I suspect the standards and quality of care would be indistinguishable from an American hospital. KS

Unit leaders have to be approved by the Chartered Organization. Your council can't jam one down the CO's throat. You operate the Crew as a youth program for your CO, not for the council. If your council insists on registering this person as a volunteer leader, let them register him in a council position. I'm not interested in what he was convicted of. It may have been as minor as jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk, but his behavior in doing an end run around the unit leadership and CO to hide his background indicates character problems that, by itself, sets off alarm bells. Have you met with your COR or IH about this yet? KS

TwoCub: That's exactly what we do. New Class 1's every year at recharter time, in the flourescent 3-ring binder, in the clear sleeve for that member, along with his Class 2 or 3 if he went or is going to summer camp, on a 50-miler, or over to Maui for something or other. I keep the book, it goes on all outings, the leaders always know where it is, and nobody messes with it. When I took the SM gig here, I reviewed all the forms, learned where my issues were, and am in the book only when I need to be. Frankly, BW's method wouldn't work for us here -- one-on-one interviews with 45 parents is a non-starter for reasons I won't bore you with. Plus, from a time management standpoint, I have just the same 24 in a day that you do -- full time job that turns into overtime every time some nut sets off a bomb. And, I gotta be a husband to the long-suffering but supremely understanding Mrs. KS, a daddy to my 10-year old GS daughter (here's a picture, ain't she adorable?), a dad to my teenage Scout son, and an Alpha male to Maxwell the wonder dog. With the few hours left over for Scouting, I prefer to spend them in direct contact with my Scouts, rather than interviewing their parents for information that's already on the forms they filled out. Call me selfish. We must be blessed with wonderfully understanding parents, too, because none have raised an issue with what we ask for, how we store/handle it, or who has access to it. If you've got those parental issues in your unit, you may need to deal with them through different info management methods -- you gotta be responsive to the situation in front of you. KS

Bob; Time for a reality check. Your personal knowledge of your friend's situation is probably not a representative example of what unit leaders have to contend with. I don't have one "friend" -- I have 45. And, many have allergies, medications, or some other health issue that we need to know immediately if something comes up. Not when somebody else remembers where the sealed envelope is. Or worse, when you open the envelope and see that the parent forgot to sign it, in effect not authorizing treatment. Everything you argue for, that is, parents divulging health information a leader needs to know, insisting parents keep you informed on activities their sons shouldn't participate in, are all listed in one place -- the Health History form. I destroy a number of applications when I rip the Class I off the back for parents to re-accomplish when health history changes or the Class I's over a year old. Having the families seal the forms in envelopes is a technique. It's not a technique we use. Our Health History forms are stored in a flourescent-colored 3-ring binder, inside clear sleeves, filed alphabetically. The leaders at an outing are always aware of the location of the book -- also contains our insurance policy. Guide to Safe Scouting, Section XI, Medical Information, Class 1. (Bold type, denoting BSA policy): "Den leaders, Scoutmasters, team coaches, and crew Advisors should review these and become knowledgeable about the medical needs of the youth members in their unit. Forms must be updated annually. They are filled out by participants and kept on file for easy reference." Owl62; if you don't have a copy of the latest GTSS (orange cover), recommend you get one. Section XI starts on page 48. KS

SR540Beaver: I'm still scratching my head over whether or not that was appropriate as a fund raiser. I'd be reluctant to apply my values or what type of activity would be well-received as a fund-raiser here with the values of N. Georgia. I gotta give the organizers credit, though, for even putting together such a high-profile event. Hindsight's 20/20 of course, but if it were me, I would have gone after a former Marine who's a much better role model and example for young people. His name is Clebe McClary, and he lives in South Carolina. He's now a motivational speaker, but was severely wounded and close to death in Vietnam. He's lost sight in one eye, a leg, and most of an arm. But, to hear him speak about his service, his faith, his country, and his family, it'll move you like nobody else I've heard. KS

I think the point is that this debate is not over whether international terrorism poses the gravest long-term threat to our country that we've ever seen -- that's not debatable if you clearly understand the threat (I work in this business every day, so I may have an unfair advantage). Rather, the debate is purely political. But, at the same time, our politcal memory is getting more short-term all the time. Peel away the election-year rhetoric and the partisan bickering, go back a few years, and you'll see leaders across the political spectrum speaking with one voice. KS

I think you can consider BSA a right-wing political organization only if you also consider the Atlanta Journal-Constitution a left-wing political organization. Jay Bookman is well-known as being quite left of center (anti-school vouchers, anti-Bush, anti-WOT, anti-conservative, etc). So obviously, he doesn't like Ann Coulter, and would trash any organization that would have her as a speaker, even if it was the blue-haired old maids of the Daughters of the American Revolution (on reflection, certainly if it were the DAR). Coincidentally, or maybe not, most of the liberal media are also anti-BSA, because the organization represents the values they would like to see "go away". Did you notice his put-down of Scouting as a "small town America" thing, as if us rubes with our outdoor plumbing and bib overalls could never be as smart or sophisticated as his urbane, cosmopolitan self -- typical liberal condescension. Now, I too have difficulty looking at Ollie North now, as a quasi-hero and media darling, without seeing the person who did such damage to the Reagan presidency and the credibility of the White House. I'm not a fan of his and wouldn't cross the street for a free ticket to hear him speak. But, to be fair, Coulter and North are national public figures, and everyone knows their motives and where they stand politically. However, Bookman's not a household name outside Atlanta. You either have to be familiar with him, or do a little digging to know where he sits on the political fence. Once you do, his motives become more clear, and one can better understand the context of his comments. Don't take my word for it; do a Yahoo or Google search on Bookman and the AJC, and see for yourself. As a parallel issue, I'd be interested in whether or not any Forum members were actually at this "rally" and can corroborate Bookman's description? Personally, something seems unusual here. Can any of your councils afford the appearance fees of an Ann Coulter and an Ollie North? A fund-raiser? With that kind of overhead? Or, if Fox arranged for them to do it gratis, then I want Bill O'Reilly and Terry Bradshaw at our next Roundtable. KS

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998 "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998 "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 "There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001 "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 "He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002 "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

There are a whole category of jokes that poke fun at a recognizable group -- helps make sure your audience "gets it". Some can be benign (sports team affiliation, for example), and some are not (racial, ethnic, sexual). Regardless of the group, condoning this kind of humor is a tacit endorsement of stereotyping. Especially with adolescents, this isn't something we should be trying to develop. KS

I forgot my 23-year old Florsheim black wing tips. Resoled twice, and more sets of laces than I can count, but what quality! Rooster, I'm with you 100% on Dodge. Also used to be a Chevy guy until I drove my mom's last car, a 1989 Celebrity -- 20,000 parts moving down the highway in loose formation! Now, it's a Grand Caravan for Mrs. KS, and a Dakota for me. KS

Sharp carousel microwave oven. First kitchen appliance my wife and I bought more than 15 years ago, and still going strong. KS

After a trip to the council service center yesterday, I was going to start a new thread along these lines, but I'll just jump in on this one. As I was waiting for the registrar to process some business I brought in, I made a beeline for the Scout Store. In there, I saw a book called "The Scoutmaster's Other Handbook". Don't know if any of you have seen it; it has a photo of the campaign hat on the cover. As I flipped through it, I noticed that most of the information seemed to be exact repeats or paraphrases of what's in other BSA pubs. But, I did see something that forced me to thinking, and I want to get some other opinions. That something was about the whole concept of "boy-led". I've never met a SM who didn't say he had a boy-led unit, although the definition of that can apparently be anywhere on a very long continuum. The author of this book gave a nod to the concept, then went on to say that boy-led shouldn't be allowed to become "boy-led-into-the-ground". In other words, the degree of boy leadership can and should vary in direct proportion to the collective experience, maturity level, skills, motivation, etc., of the Scouts involved. If the youth leaders are new in their positions, undertrained, very young, etc., more adult hands-on will be required. Does this diminish their leadership in an immediate sense? Perhaps. But, as the author goes on to say, leadership development is not included in the mission statement of the BSA, and isn't one of the aims, either. It is one of the methods, but only one of eight. And, as BSA says, they're of equal importance. So, the question might be, are we holding leadership development as a method above the other 7? To ensure they get the experience and (sometimes) the scar tissue of leadership experience, are we doing it at the cost of advancement, the outdoor program, or other equally important methods? I know myself that the degree to which I can watch from the sidelines varies depending on a number of factors, and I have to be prepared to provide more help if they're struggling. No big revelation there; it was covered at WB, and it's just common sense. To what degree do you allow "controlled failure" to take place? Do you let them figure out the school solution themselves, or show them "what right looks like", more than once if necessary? If the SPL or a PL is struggling, do you let the Scouts live with it to teach them a democracy lesson next Troop elections, or take actions to improve or replace that leader? In a nutshell, how do you balance all 8 methods so that emphasizing one doesn't detract from the others? KS

Extensions beyond the 18th birthday for any of the Eagle requirements cannot be assumed; you must request any extension or waiver as far ahead of time as possible, and receive something definitive (preferably in writing) through your District Advancement Committee before you consider it a "done deal". I'm going to make an assumption, that you're active in a Troop. I recommend you talk to your Scoutmaster as soon as possible. He (or if he's designated one, an ASM who "shepherds" the Life-to-Eagle Scouts in your Troop) will be your conduit to the District Advancement Committee. I've seen Districts allow the BOR past the 18th birthday if all other requirements were complete beforehand, but no other requirements -- that's just my experience. Expect and be prepared for a pushback. After all, the requirements and their timing are not a secret. Assuming (again) that you joined at 11, you had the same seven years everyone else did to get there. Hopefully, you had extenuating circumstances other than setting different priorities for yourself. If not, I suggest steeling yourself for very little spare time until your birthday... Good luck; KS

Any military concerns with zip-off pant legs have more to do with safety in a field or industrial environment, and compatibility with other gear we carry when wearing them, than with day to day wear or fabric durability (BDUs have been notorious for premature wear/fading for years -- most troops' main complaint concerning them). When working around explosives, fuels, engines, or in a potential mine or sensor environment, metal zippers are not a good thing -- that's why BDUs have buttons. Zip off legs on our BDUs would have required one of two things from a practical standpoint. First, raising the height of the cargo pockets to the point where they would have been placed above the bottom of the shirts, and would interfere with equipment mounted on web belts, such as pistol holsters, gas masks, and other regalia. Second, lowering the placement of the zippers to clear the cargo pockets, but now placing them over the knee reinforcements and ensuring that every time a troop "took a knee" (very often), they were grinding the zipper area into the dirt. Either way, not good. But also, should also be irrelevant as far as BSA is concerned. To determine suitability of outerwear, we should probably be using REI, Columbia, and North Face as models, rather than DoD. Our requirements for clothing performance probably match the former more closely than the latter. The argument about the pants and legs fading at different rates, as an argument not to have them from an appearance standpoint, is not an issue in my opinion. First, BDU pants and shirts can be mixed and matched, as long as you don't mix the temperate and hot-weather fabrics. So, it's not uncommon to have a shirt a little more faded than the pants, or vice-versa. Also, let's put this in perspective. BSA doesn't even require a member to have a uniform at all. That said, if a Scout has the full uniform (assuming zip-off pants were official), and the pants had been washed a few more times than the legs, I think my time is better spent encouraging full uniforming for the entire troop, than hammering the full-uniformed Scout because he didn't wash his pants and legs together. Moreover, this wouldn't be an issue if the pants were made of a wicking, durable, quick-drying synthetic like my commercial zip-offs are. Ultimately, why not have the option from a "freedom of choice" standpoint? If you don't like zip-offs, or they chafe your legs, or you think they look bad, don't buy or wear them. To me, it's the same thing as the long sleeve/short sleeve shirts. Both are official, both offered for sale, you wear the one you like. KS

It's not always the unit and the OA Chapter that aren't coordinated. My son's a Den Chief, and an OA member. The next ordeal, which he'd like to help with, is the same weekend as his District Den Chief training, which will only be offered once. He's going to the training, after making a tough decision. Tour permits are more than a CYA. They help a leader plan, since you have to fill in driver info, itinerary, Safe Swim info, contact info, and so on. OA may not be a unit-level activity, but it is a BSA activity. Why would GTSS policies that apply to a Scout at a Troop outing not apply to him at an OA activity? Why wouldn't a council require a Tour Permit or similar documentation to ensure the activity leaders planned it properly and are following BSA policy? Whenever I see a subgroup of people, regardless of the setting, operating under an assumption that they aren't subject to the same rules everyone else is, alarm bells start going off. As a Scoutmaster, I encourage all my Scouts to participate in every element of the program and all District/Council activities, wherever they take place, in whatever setting. I do this because I know that there's one set of rules, and that everybody is supposed to be following them. The unexpected will happen, and in that case, I continue to depend on adult leaders to make adult decisions and judgments. This doesn't negate the maturity or responsibility levels of the Scouts involved. Our credibility is our stock in trade; parents loan us their sons to go out into the wilderness because, in part, we're following a set of rules that we told them we're following when they registered their boys and we handed back the Information for Parents part of the application. Those parents will make no distinction between a Troop, District, Council, or OA Chapter activity. You either did what you said you were going to do, or you didn't. If any Scouter told me that there was GTSS language that didn't apply to his unit or activity, I'd pull out my copy and ask him specificially which sections and paragraphs he was referring to. KS

Even if there wasn't a United Way jeopardy issue, there is a Scout Spirit issue. Remember, all the Scouts in a District are selling at the same time. If one unit jumps the gun, its Scouts carve out an unfair advantage, because they have no competition and are picking all the low-hanging fruit, so to speak. It's as if one of a group of runners started a race from a point 100 feet ahead of the rest of the group. KS

Has anyone else seen this; a Kentucky Fried Chicken commercial with a middle aged man wearing what is obviously an altered official BSA shirt, peddling KFC chicken of all things! It fooled my son for a few seconds, then he looked more closely, saw it had been altered, and pronounced it "lame". KS

How could they do it in the first place? You don't get order forms with product offerings until District kickoff. Were they taking orders based on last year's lineup & prices on notebook paper or something? KS

I'm not FOG, but I've got a 9th and 10th Edition Handbook on my bookshelf. They're better all around, in my opinion. Better illustrated (Rockwell pics throughout), for example: - star charts - wildlife - excellent illustrated uniform layout pics - types of backpacks - fuzz sticks - how to hold a hand axe - knot pages - Morse Code (used as a patrol comp event at a District Camporee a while back, and I had to get out my 20 year old Handbook to get the Morse Code) - types of fire lays I could go on all night, and all are in full color. I've taken my old handbooks on campouts, and Scouts will actually pick up and read an old handbook with interest. I still use the illustrations to reinforce Scout Skills. The cooking sections have real menus. Much more and better SCOUTING info in the old books. There's more junk in the new book that is exact duplicates of what they already have in school textbooks, but where are you going to get the Philmont Grace, Norman Rockwell, stars, snakes, plants, knots, all the state flags, a reproduction of Francis Scott Key's "Star Spangled Banner", the sign language manual alphabet, family tips for saving energy depicted as a cutaway house filling two pages, insects, and all in full color, and all in one book? If you have the 11th Edition, you have to either have old Handbooks, or go buy an out-of-date Fieldbook for $20 (I did) for Scout Skills and fieldcraft. Thumb index on back cover (9th Edition), with quick reference table of contents, too. No memorizing colors (lessee, is red second class or first class?). The 10th edition was starting to slide in content compared to the 9th, but either one is better than the 11th. If anyone out there is working on the layout for the 12th, or knows someone who is (Bob White, are you listening?), please read the 9th Edition first, or better yet, give ten Scouts at random, a copy of the 9th and the 11th, have them skim through it, and ask them which one they'd rather have. Don't be surprised when they all want the old one. If you can, get an old Handbook. Suggestion: visit your local library. They may have an old Handbook in the reference section or in the Youth section. Offer to replace it with a current hardbound one if they'll give you the old one. KS

Packsaddle; I think I get your point, but since we moved here in June, I've learned the weather is a mixed blessing. When it's great for camping, it's also great for surfing, snorkeling, sports, family picnics, and other activities that pull Scouts away from Troop activities. Much different in Korea, where Troop outings were often the only options our Scouts had. I'm a little slow on the uptake; are your Camping MB counselors requiring more than 20 nights for the MB requirement, or does your Troop camp 40-60 nights in a typical 2-year period, or did you mean something else? KS

I know this wasn't your central point, but if a MB's requirements change, a Scout has the option of completing the new requirements, or the old ones, provided he had a signed blue card while the old requirements were still in effect. So, in your scenario, if he had a partial with one requirement left, and BSA dropped that requirement, he just finished the badge, opting to use the new requirements... KS

While the requirements may not specifically require Troop/patrol camping, it's clear to me that the intent here is for the camping nights to be part of the Troop program, supplemented by patrol campouts as appropriate. Here's some things to consider: 1). Go a couple pages before the requirements in the MB pamphlet. In the "Note to the Counselor", it says that camping "...helps the BSA deliver the promise of outdoor adventure to Boy Scouts." It goes on to reference the GTSS and various portions of it that relate directly to camping safety and the "qualified supervision" that's required to keep it safe, and other pubs that trained leaders are familiar with. So, what were the authors envisioning, family camping or Troop/patrol camping with 2-deep registered leaders to meet the requirement? 2). The 20-night requirement can include 6 nights at a long-term camp; that's almost a third of the total. Camp just seven nights a year other than summer camp (District camporees can provide as many as six if yours is as active as mine have been), and you have your 20 nights. It took my son a few months short of two years to get his 20 nights, that met all the qualifications. We did outings where we stayed in cabins -- don't count. Neither did long-term camps after the first one. It all seemed reasonable to me, and while he could have sliced that time in half if we counted family camps, I wouldn't have done it. 3). Monthly themes include feature activities, which can be campouts. The feature activity is where all the skill instruction that month comes together, not to mention the setting where leadership lessons are really learned regardless of the theme. I know, I know, the wordsmiths/lawyers will remind me that despite this, the requirements don't mandate Troop/patrol camping, and there are probably a fair number of Scouts whose parents are licensed outfitters and more than qualified to teach them how to camp. But, I think that's largely beside the point. The skills here go way beyond pitching a tent properly, or hanging a bear bag. It's as much about leadership, menu planning, duty rosters, dealing with homesickness, and other intangibles that simply aren't present when mom and dad are ten feet away. Without intending to be a wise guy, I'd say if it takes a Troop's Scouts too long (more than 3 years) to get their 20 nights, camp more often. Surely there are other Camping MB counselors in your council; have you checked the roster and called any of them to see what they think? KS

Thanks for the info; I hadn't considered actual "title", insurance, etc. Better make a beeline for our COR if we want to do this. Would any of you consider approaching a U-haul or other rental outfit for an old trailer, or are those things completely blown out by the time they retire them? KS

I need some advice. Our Troop rents storage space for our equipment, to the tune of $140 a month. It's a pain in the neck(access, loading/unloading), in addition to being expensive. I've seen other Troops that have equipment trailers, and it seems to work for them. Do you use a trailer? If so, what kind? Any advice? thanks, KS