asm 411

Ask the Scout what he thinks is the right one to wear at this time. Or ... sew a tan velcro circle (loop side) on the sleeve where the patch goes. Sew the patches to the hook side and switch when needed. Suggest he keeps the other patch in his shirt pocket.

What makes an Eagle project more worthy?

Da Bears, Da Bears, Da Bears... You get the point. Lincoln C-32-05

Cheffy, Hold on a moment. I think that the choices presented to you are just that choices. You can choose to pursue the course of action in a court room but what are the consequences of such a choice? It may take months or longer to get it resolved. Is it worth delaying the project over some idiot? The cost involved making it a legal matter may vary well out strip the benefit. Is your son going to log the hours and cost associated with this in his Eagle project. Where will he get the money to pay the lawyer? Or he could just note that the first approach did not work out and he weighed the options. Even if you win the case do you think this guy is going to deliver a top quality product in a timely maner? Litigation over $225 difference does not seem like a good economic solution. I don't think Scouters generally think in terms of litigation. I think most Scouters find legal matters anti-thrify (not really a word but you get the point). Perhaps sitting down and making a list of pros and cons with your son and the deciding if litigation makes sense would be the best choice. If this was a project I was working on I certainly would do that. The choice is your son's to make. Guide him the best way you see fit. Lincoln

"What are the legal ramifications when little Johnny breaks an ankle tripping over a tree stump on a hike and the litigious parents find out there was no adults present." I would assume that if the protocol for a patrol outing, which is allowed according to the BSA documention including overnight camping, is followed including a plan approved by the Scoutmaster then the BSA insurance should cover the outing. As for me I believe that an "adult free" patrol outing needs to be well published and have signed permission slips so all concerned know that the Scouts will be working in an adult free environment. Since I have been with our troop only one such event happened with older Scouts in a Scouts backyard. His parents were in the house and available if need be. Not much in the way of "adult free" if you ask me.

I was a Den Leader Tiger -> Webelos II. When they crossed over my Scouts wanted to do something for me. So they asked my wife and son. They both said the same thing. Get him an official BSA campaign hat. They knew I had always wanted one. I wear the hat to almost every meeting and campout. When someone asks me where I got it I tell them "The best Scouts in the world gave it to me." My advice is to ask those close to him what he would really like and go from there. FWIW - I also got a plaque which I occasionally look at.

"... I recruited the adults to run the stations but the Scouts in my unit are the ones who planned each station." We just had a local camporee which was much the same as you described. Scouts planned stations run by adults. I had suggested that the boys run the stations but those involved in the planning chose to have the adults run the stations. I thought the Scouts could rotate between running their station and attending others. We had 3 troops with seven patrols. Out of curiousity why not have the Scouts run the stations?

In the previous thread a mention was made of more Eagle Mills in recent years. I was at an Eagle Court of Honor a few months ago and the father of the Eagle Scout made mention that the other troop in town was an Eagle Mill because they camped twice a month and focused on advancement. If our troop had the adults to support camping twice a month our Scouts would advance faster as well too. My gosh I am always amazed at how much advancement is done on a campouts as it is. For instance we had a mini-camporee this weekend (three troops from the same school district). The moment the competition was over I had our new Scout patrol leader ask me if it would be okay if he took out the staves and twine so he and his patrol could work on the lashings they needed to complete the requirement that were not done during the competition. I directed him to the Troop Guide. They finished up the lashings and then worked on several other requirements. My point is when does a troop become an "Eagle Mill" and is it a bad thing? When they produce a lot of Eagle Scouts by using the Methods of Scouting to achieve the Aims of Scouting? My gut feeling is that every Scout can be an Eagle Scout if given the proper encouragement and opportunities. Our troop plans a lot of our activities around new Scout Skills. Pioneering, Cooking, Backpacking,... themed outings. Older Scouts teaching younger Scouts how to do the job right. Our older Scouts are working on merit badges at their own pace. We don't have merit badges classes as such but we do regularly work requirements from merit badges into our program. For instance when we have a campfire we make mention that being the MC is a requirement for Communications merit badge or when we make a pioneering tower on an out we point out that it completes a requirement if anyone is interested in pursuing a pioneering merit badge. A few take note, get the blue card and get started. Most don't. Right now out of 24 Scouts we have 4 lined up for Eagle. These Scouts are 16 or 17 year olds. About two years ago we changed to a lot less adult control. This has been difficult at times but we are working through it. So far it has been well worth the effort. Now here is the more interesting part. We have several Scouts that are moving far more quickly than their predecessors. We are headed toward having several 13 year old Life Scouts and one 12 year old Life Scout. Some are likely to become very young Eagles compared previous years. It is taking about a year for our Scouts to reach First Class if they are reasonable active (assume playing one interfering sport a year). Less active takes longer. A very active Scout First Class takes about 8 months (near 100% attendance). We have about 1 of those a year. This is a different from past years when some Scouts were still Tenderfoot after 3 years. We don't run merit badge classes. We do have lots of informal Scoutmaster conferences. Probably once every other month or so we ask each Scout what he has to do next to get to his next rank and how he plans to do it. We ask the patrol leaders to find ways to be good servant leaders and help remove road blocks from those Scouts that are not advancing. Are we turning into an Eagle Mill? I hope so because as far as I am concerned there are not enough Eagle Scouts out there yet. If there were the world would be a much better place. Are we doing it in a way that keeps quality in the program? I hope so. Are we balancing the methods of Scout to meet the Aims of Scouting? I believe we are. So what makes an Eagle Mill a bad thing?

Oddly enough I have been thinking about this a lot lately. When I look over the requirements and think about if Scout John knows how to do a head bandage and the answer comes up no it is time to find an opportunity. It is up to me to be sure that Scout gets the opportunity fisrt to assist teaching that skill with a skilled Scout to a new Scout or Webelos. Then to follow that up with having Scout John to teach that skill to a scout by himself. I believe that very few Scouts actually retain a skill when they "learn" it. I believe they don't really learn it until they have to teach it. It is good thing that there is a constant stream of Webelos and New Scouts in which the older Scouts can learn ... err teach ... these skills to. I have no problem asking any Scout First Class and above to teach a younger Scout a skill in the foundation ranks. When the Scout says "I don't remember how to do that." I say "Since you knew how to do it once a review of the Handbook is all it should take."

You may want to take a look at www.roadid.com. These are Dog tags for cyclist. I got my there a number of years ago and if I remember correctly they have a good number of choices. I think there was a blank that you could have engraved locally with your own image. So they may not be the exact ones you saw you may be able to get close. I have worn mine for over 5 years and in which I rode well over 10,000 hot and sweaty miles and it is still in great shape.

I am new to being a Cit in Comm MBC and I had a troop in our area ask for a list of movies I would approve. I replied that each patrol in the troop should recommend two movies which they thought would be good to fulfill the requirement and I would approve one. I have not heard back yet but I think it will be interesting to see what the Scouts think are good. Then again I may end up having to watch 6 movies to figure it out.

Just before I recieved my beads so one made mention to me in an email about the much coveted Wood Badge beads. This was my response a couple years ago and it still holds true for me today. "I never expected that Wood Badge was about wearing any symbol, square knot device, thong and beads, neckerchief or woggle. I considered the training about personal growth, the promotion of and dedication to the scouting movement. I am about to cross over six Webelos Scouts to Boy Scouts in about week. As I told them, their Arrow of Light award can be destroyed and the council building can burn to the ground with all the records of their accomplishments within it. Removing all physical proof of what they have done and it does not matter. What does matter is that they have worked hard and earned the highest award in Cub Scouting, The Arrow of Light. That they have learned the ways of Boy Scouting in the process. No one can ever take away what they have learned and accomplished. No one can take away the pride and integrity that comes with this accomplishment. Scouting is not just about the symbols we wear on the outside but about the changes that are made on the inside. Wearing the symbols of our accomplishments communicates to others how to interact with us. To what level we have been trained and to what level we can be expected to perform. We should wear these symbols with pride and live up to all that they represent. I explained that it is important to realize that even when we are not wearing these symbols the expectations we place on ourselves should be the same. I feel this way about the Wood Badge training. I certainly will wear my Beads with pride because of all they symbolize. You may have noticed that I am not in a hurry to receive my Beads. Others may covet them, they are a significant symbol but the beads themselves do not change me as a Scouter. They reflect who I am. I believe my day to day, week to week, year to year actions in scouting are a far better a representation of what I learned and achieved at Wood Badge training than the symbol of the leather thong and beads. Those who see me wear them, and know what they are, will recognize that I have a special commitment to scouting and that it took hard work and dedication for me to earn them. The things I do in scouting that others can make use of also reflect my dedication and commitment to scouting as well. What those who see the beads will never understand, even if they take the course and get their own beads, is how I have been transformed for the better. They may mesh with their patrol the way Da' Bears have, which seems uncommon. They may fully grasp all five sides of the Wood Badge Pentagram. Will they come to have their understanding of the Scouting program confirmed and enhanced the way I have? I am not sure. I have talked to several of my fellow C-32-05 troop members from other patrols that got a lot from the training but did not get the boost I got. To me Wood Badge was never about finishing the tickets to get the beads. I finished my tickets because it was a validation of what I learned during the training. To me the Wood Badge experience was a way of coming home, a way to learn how to better give back to the program that formed my core values and beliefs. Wood Badge is about becoming part of a brotherhood of dedicated Scouters who can deliver the scouting program better than anyone else. How I apply my training from here is what is important. If I have the opportunity to be a Wood Badge troop guide or even a Wood Badge course directory someday it will never be about the beads for me. It will be because it is the best way I can promote scouting."

Last march, still snow on the ground, our troop got to a campsite late. The SPL had a really hard time locating the campsite the camp Ranger directed us to. The next month we were to do our first backpacking trip in many years. He did not want to look disorganized for a second time so he requested the PLC hike the trail we were going to backpack the week before. It worked out great. The PLC really shined because during the hike they made plans how to traverse certain areas when we had all four patrols along. Great team building experience and lots of fun.

In our Troop the rule is you don't work with your own son during Scouts unless it is group setting. If my son gets out of hand, the Scoutmaster or another ASM speaks to him about it. If it needs to be elevated to a parent the SM tells my wife and we discuss it as a family. This way my son can grow in Scouting like any other Scout. Also there is no questions of favoritism. I am an ASM, in particular the ASM that works with the New Scouts. Last February we had an interesting turn of events. The SM's son was elected SPL and my son was assigned Troop Guide. From February to September I did all the things the SM normally does with the SPL and the SM worked with my son to coach him as Troop Guide. Overall it worked out well for all involved. The only thing that we forgot to do was tell the SPL what was going. After about six weeks he asked his Dad, the SM, if I was taking over as SM. Ooops.

Young Eagle Scouts... Cookie monster your son sounds like a Scout in my troop. He crossed over after earning the Super Achiever award as a Webelos last february. This young man is a great Scout. He has acquired the nickname Doc because since he earned First Aid merit badge last April he has been their as soon as anyone gets hurt. He has all the merit badges for Star and I think 1 or to 2 for Life. With just one requirement left for First Class. Are his parents pushing him. Nope. His older brother has been in our troop for 3 years and just made Star. Are the parents supportive of their sons, you betcha. If they want to work on Scouting Mom and Dad are right there to bring them places or help them figure out how to get to the next step. The younger Scout asks questions like "How do I go about doing the orienteering requirement for first class? Is there a course set up somewhere? Can my buddy and I go there this weekend?" Will he be an Eagle at 13 or 14? I would say yes. Will he stay on with Scouting after that? Again I say yes. As long as a troop is very open that Eagle Scout is a step in the Scouting adventure then it is not looked on as a race with Eagle Scout at the end. It is looked on a challenge to meet along with others like being SPL or a member of the OA or earning all the merit badges. Eagle Scout is well defined challenge along with many others. Another Scout in our troop is moving at a fast pace as well, come to think of it he is a Super Achiever recipient as well, he will be 13 two days after he has his BOR for Life. His goal has always been to be Eagle by age 15. One of his goals is to earn all 15 the Eagle required merit badges to use in his 21 for Eagle. Another challange set up by the Scout himself. My opinion is never discourage a Scout. Sometimes redirection is necessary at times but if they are focused on scouting all the better. Fuel the fire and keep him going. I don't know what advice to give you about changing the culture in your troop. Sorry. I think it is a shame that your son could miss out on earning some or all of his palms because of this misplaced set of ideals. Lincoln Eagle Scout 1980 WB C-32-05 : a good old Bear

Vicki, "My socks! I can't move my socks!" That brought back a lot of memories. Thanks. I don't think I would want to share many those with my younger Scouts or older ones for that matter. Lincoln

If a MCB is a council level position what color shoulder loops does a MBC wear when acting as a MBC. Just curious.

Thanks to everyone for the clarification. I appreciate it and will have the right answer when he asks.

nolesrule: I agree that is reasonable and more than likely what will happen but that is not stated by the requirement. So that makes me think about why it is not clearly stated. Could it be that once a Scout completes the Merit Badges and community service it may be time to create a new plan instead of waiting for the click to finish ticking. jtswestark: What are the requirements for being eligle? The requirements simple state: "Take part in a Scoutmaster conference" and "Complete your board of review." His enthusiasm is what drives the question. Should we be helping him plan while the iron is hot?

I have a Scout that has two easy requirements left to complete his last merit badge for his Life rank. He already has in more than enough community service hours. He has been doing a good job in his leadership position and I don't expect any changes there. He has great attendance at meetings, outings, community service... and no problems with Scout spirit. He will have completed his participation and POR requirement on Nov 26th, about 6 weeks from now. I know once he completes the merit badge requirements he is going to ask when he can have his SMC and BOR. What I was wondering is what is the answer? After the 26th? Within a week of the 26th? Any time after he asks? There is no rush, the Scout will turn 13 at the end of next month so he is not on the 17 year old fast track to Eagle or anything, he is just enthusiastic. I am also sure that he will accept any reasonable answer to the question. I just would like to be prepared with the right answer. If this is documented somewhere, Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook, Advancement Guide... please let me know because I could not find it. Thanks for your time, Lincoln ASM Troop 411

FWIW we have found the following works as a guide line for communicating with the Scouts. 1) If it is urgent the calling tree is the most dependable but we send an email anyway. 2) For none urgent information like campout announcements, community service, we do the following: a) We have an online calendar that has every event on it we know as soon as we know about it. Most are added after our yearly planning meeting. b) We hand out fliers at the troop meetings c) Announcements are made at the Troop meetings by the SPL d) We email the fliers out to Scout and parents. e) The patrols do their meal planning 10 days before the campout. Any Scout that is not at the meeting gets a phone call and is asked if they will be coming by their patrol leader. f) We post the flier on the web site. Even with that we will have Scouts who say "I didn't know about that." Granted those comments are way down from what they used to be when we only used one or two of the methods above. We typically only send one email per event( unless something changes) so that each message we send is thought of as important. Lincoln ASM 411

The troop I serve took a bit of a different direction as of late. The last PLC came up with the following scheme. 1) We have an SPL election twice a year. This was decided for similar reason as stated above that has to do with sports and band commitments. No term limits. 2) We have a pre-SPL election the week before the SPL election. Like the OA election any Scout who recieves votes from 50% of those in attendance is then eligable. The Scouts can vote for anyone in the Troop even if they are not at the pre-election meeting. Each Scout votes for everyone he thinks is qualified. Any Scout that gets 50% of the vote can give a speech the next week as to why he would be a good SPL, those not in attendance are notified by the current SPL. Like the OA if no one gets at least 50% the Scouts vote again. There are no qualification criteria for the SPL in terms of rank or age. 3) SPL election week - Each Scout in attendance casts one vote, the Scout with the most votes win. If there is a tie then they vote again. Votes are counted independently by the outgoing SPL and quartermaster and reported to the scribe who double checks the count. Note the SPL, quartermaster and or the scribe may be in the running for the position and that is okay because a Scout is Trustworthy right. 4) ASPL is chosen by the SPL 5) The Patrols have the option, may have to because old PL may be SPL or ASPL, to elect a new leader if they want to. Actually the patrols can elect a new leader anytime they see fit with the approval of the PLC (mostly to prevent PL of the month). This covers all unfortunate instances like sports or moving away or quitting... 6) All other PORs are up for grabs with the new SPL. We put out sign up sheets at the pre-election and the night of the election. The SPL and ASPL decide who will fill their PORs based on those who signed up. (The Scouters have been known to recommend to Scouts that they might be good in a POR but that is as far as the adult intervention goes) The POR are shown to the SM for approval, mostly a formality but as always the SM has veto power which is rarely used. 7) Leadership projects are always available to Scouts. This helps with the too busy with sports for meeting night and campouts. The project gives them a way to be involved in Scouting and contribute the troop when they have to take a several weeks off for other activities. It also takes care of things that need taken care of like reorganizing the troop gear. 8) We have our election when school starts in the fall and right after the cross over in February. Lincoln

Fair enough Eagledad, I agree. I still think he needs to pitch the idea to the PLC before implementation.

Have your QM present this idea to the PLC and see where it goes. If a QM approached me with this idea I think I would guide him in the direction of something more patrol oriented like others said above. Something where the Patrols select there gear before the campout and put it in their section of the trailer. Then the QM and AQM don't have to hang around the trailer waiting for some Scout to come and check out some piece of equipment instead of having fun with the rest of the troop.

It seems to me that every troop changes every day. The dynamics are incredible. Think about it. With adult leaders changing every so often and bringing a different vision for the delivery of the program. The youth change much quicker, the Scout who was enthusiastic before summer camp is now going into football so his interest has dropped for the time being. He may not return at all, you just never know. The troop I am in is going through some growing pains as well. Advancement and skills are all over the map. Seems to me that there is not a Scout in the troop that can light a fire. Perhaps that don't really want to. I don't know, I have seen them do it before. Need less to say no campfires that last two campouts. So what are you to do? My opinion is that as leaders we deliver the program "Doing our best" as mentioned above. Try to get smarter about delivering the program by asking question on forums such as this, at round table and other Scouters you know. Read old forum posting from ages ago. Read old handbooks, they are cheap enough at amazon and ebay. Realize not everything is going go fit but take the parts that you feel good about. Distribute responsibilities. Encourage Scouts to be responsible. Some will and some won't. The most important thing I think I have discovered is that as adults we let the Scout make the decisions and then we train them one on one or two Scouts to one adult at most. Talking to the masses seems to always fail. I find myself trying to make sure everyone is paying attention. If I train the SPL or a PL and then they train 5 to 8 other Scouts... then the message gets through. There is a bit of message loss but a lot less than when one adult address 20 or more Scouts. You know why there is a Scoutmaster's Minute? That is the attention span of most teenage boys in a crowd. So take the time to train yourself and then train your older Scouts as instructors. Treat them as equals and have them pass on the knowledge. Are you going to get them all to take part, maybe, maybe not. The teenage boy is a fickle beast the best we can do is to be understanding and work with them whenever they are ready. You know if you count a campout as 24 hours (40 - 16 for sleeping) + four 1 hour meetings a month + 1 hour for a PLC we get about 21 hours of opportunity a month to teach them. That leaves less than one hour per Scout per month on average. None the less turning you troop program around is going to take time. Have a vision and then work on implementation through the Scouts who are most interested. Plant seeds in the minds of Scouts. They will grow. Some times I plant the same seed with several Scouts and watch. With any luck as you deliver the BSA program as designed through the more interesed the less interested will join in the fun. Lincoln