asm 411

Hello Jeff, Scouting is only what the Scouters mold it into being. If Scouting if failing where you are then you need to bring more to it. I believe that I have a lot to give to the Scouts and do. Our troop is in transition from being a troop divided up into patrols and troop made up of patrols. This one perspective has made a world of change in our Scouts. There are policies and guidelines that we have to follow now. The rank requirements are different from when I earned my Eagle in 1980 but advancement is only one eighth of what we do. I have 10 weekends, a week of summer camp and about 40 hour long meetings to make an impact on the Scouts in my troop every year. I try to make the most of it, one Scout at a time. Scouting in many ways is not what it was when I as boy. The core of Scouting is very much the same as it was. One mission, 3 aims and 8 methods. How we as Scouters work toward the mission and the aims using the methods is what makes the difference. Lincoln

When I was awarded my Eagle an older gentleman, an Eagle himself, told me that Eagle Scouts are the biggest failures. The reason is to achieve something so demanding a Scout has to fail many times and learns from each of the failures to ultimately achieve success. He said it is not the successes that build us up but recovering from the failures. I have never forgot that. Eagle Scout - 1980

The reason it is so important the Scouts pick the activity is because no matter how cool an adult thinks something is we can not really know. We don't really have their perspective. For instance I really want to go to Philmont. The Scouts in out troop want to go to Sea Base. If I were to do all the up front work for Philmont I could probably get a bunch of them to go but maybe not enough to fill a crew. Perhaps after they go to Sea Base they will want to give Philmont a try. Don't know. For that matter in two years when the ones who are currently too young to go are old enough the preference may be the other way around. Won't know until we ask again next year. Sadly I have have no desire to go to Sea Base but luckily the Scoutmaster would really like to do both.

"While tying the correct knot may be preferable, the real issue is that he was able and willing to act to rectify the situation, and that he had the ability to get support of his patrol. That is the ideal of being a leader, and what we hope may happen with our own charges at some point. What makes this movie so appealing to many of us is that it does an exceptional job of showing both the dedication of concerned adults, and the ability of a "fun" program to develop young minds and character." And this from someone named "skeptic". Many are quick to point out the short comings in this movie I am personally amazed at how true to life many of the situations are. In the great balance of all that is Scouting every troop has its strong and weak points, things that go right and things that need work, good Scouts and Scouts that need more encouragement and training...(This message has been edited by asm 411)

I don't remember where I read it but it may have been in "Two Lives of a Hero" B-P said something about never expecting a Scout to have to find his way in an emergency using orienteering. The purpose of that particular game was to teach Scouts the importance of using tools correctly and precisely. I believe that learning how to tie knots and lashings, swimming, cooking, first aid...has nothing to do with the actual skill itself. Several are definitely good skills to have no doubt. I think it has to do with opening a boys mind to the things that can happen. When a patrol creates a pioneering tower that they can stand on and look out from has nothing to do with earning pioneering MB or a life skill in itself. I would not expect a Scout to go about lashing things together in his daily life. It has to do with having fun, building confidence and learning the possibilities of what can be done with minimal resources and tools. Take those same boys and set them loose in their occupation of choice and they will not be limited to the latest technologies to get the job done. They will have their minds open to not only use the past and present but be looking for new ways. Why do Scouts learn the skills they do? To have fun and prepare them for any old thing.(This message has been edited by asm 411)

I think merit badges and ranks patches are great. Hey I am all for giving out patches for special campouts and lots of other Scout oriented activities. A small item the represents something done. A keepsake. What bugs me is when I hear about a Scout not being able to do something like activity night at school until they finish a merit badge or not being able to get their driver's license until they have finished their Eagle. What kind of lesson does that teach?

In the previous thread there were comments about bribes and recognition given for completing merit badges. I never like this. Here is some information that I put together to help parents get their Scouts moving if need be. Some just use it from the start. www.sharonScouts.org/usefulInformation/sixEasyStepsToHelpYourScoutSucceed.html I have seen these techniques work well on the 17 year old life Scout to get moving on completing Eagle and 10 year old AOL crossovers to get started on the foundation ranks. If anyone else has any suggestions similar to these I would love to add them to the six easy steps.

My wife and I were in Amish Country in Ohio and went to Lehman's hardware. Basically this is a department store for the Amish. My wife said she would really like a Dutch Oven. I was a bit puzzled but told her I thought it would be great to have one too. So I picked out a nice Lodge, it even had the BSA logo on the lid for no extra cost. Paid for it and put it in the van. When we got home she was quite shocked because she had wanted one to use inside the house. All I had to say was "They make them to use inside?"

"After 2.5 years as an ASM I'd never noticed that the wording had changed since I was a Scout in the 70's. Sheesh. It was "physically fit" in the 70's, wasn't it? Or is old age setting in all too fast?? " I had the same thing happen to me when my son crossed over about two years ago. I had another ASM, who never left the program, tell me it was never physically fit. Weird.

I was at a camporee a couple weeks ago and I ran in to a gentleman in his 70's with an Indiana Jones (BSA Stampede I think) type hat. On the front was sewn an Eagle rank patch. Being an engineer type it went against my grain. My mind spun about how to let this very nice old Scouter who is still volunteering into 70's know he was not being a good example. I simply let it go because you he was proud to be an Eagle Scout. I think it was better for him to show the Scouts that he was proud of his 60 year old accomplishment than to hid the fact under his coat on a uniform shirt. Do I think anyone should wear the Eagle rank patch after he has turned 18 years old. No. Should an Eagle Scout where his rank patch anywhere but on his left shirt pocket. No. Should there be a way for a proud Eagle to display it. I certainly think so. I would love to see an oval patch like the one on my red jack-shirt that was for Eagle Scouts to use to replace the BSA one that is on the left pocket. An oval patch that was similar enough to the rank patch that could be worn on other apparel that was identifiable to all from a distance that the wearer is an Eagle Scout. 1) Nay 2) Eagle Scout 1980

Within the boundaries of the Oath and Law using the Methods of Scouting to reach for the Aims of Scouting the ideal troop is like a river. It changes every day as need be based on who and what is in and around it.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for but perhaps it will help. www.sharonsscouts.org/genericPackingList.html Good luck.

How do you present a rank patch immediately following a BOR? The process here is that you have to file the paper work with council before you can get a rank patch for a Scout. Does an Eagle Scout have to wait until the paperwork comes back from National before he gets his rank patch if the troop is of the sort that awards the rank patches as soon as possible, the next meeting or campout... ? Thanks

John, I agree with you wrote but I think I was not clear. 1) We are committed to going to Tinnerman Canoe Base. 2) We have 6 Scout positions in our crew. 3) The restriction of rank and age are the Canoe Base's not our Troop's. 4) I am reasonable sure, at least for 2009, that I will not be able to get enough parental support to have two crews. What I am trying to figure out is since we have the restrictions I stated above how does the troop select who will be going if we have more than six Scouts that would like to go? Lincoln

FScouter, I would love to have more qualified adults to go. Out troop is in a transition period and with that we are trying to recruit more ASMs. We have a hard time getting parents to camp with us for the weekend never mind take a week off of work. To give credit to our SM and CC they have done great things in the last 6 months in getting more parents involved. Lots more work needs to be done before we would be able to support two high adventure crew outings and summer camp in the same year. But I do like your suggestion, thank you very much. Beavah, To clear a few things up. Last year when we had to cancel the trip because of lack of adult leaders. The Cleveland Council was nice enough to only keep a portion of our deposit to cover the food they purchased for the trip. The balance of our deposit they applied to the 2009 outing. By the letter of the law they could have kept it all. So we can not really change things up at this point. I was not involved in the planning last year but it was done a bit backwards from my point of view. Trip scheduled, scouts asked who wants to go then adults secured. No deposits were taken from the Scouts last year. The last step is where things went wrong. The proper order, it seems to me, is ask the Scouts where they want to go, get the adults lined up, secure the deposits from the Scouts then schedule the trip. Thank you very much for your input it is much appreciated.

We have a reservation at Tinnerman, a canoe base owned/run by the Cleveland Council. Background: Last year we had to cancel our trip to Tinnerman because we did not have 2 adults for the crew. Poor late planning was the biggest culprit. The crew size is 8. We must have at least two adults but we can have up to three. We had seven Scouts signed up for six spots. One was the reserve in case someone bailed. This year I have taken on the responsibility of the primary adult leader going on the trip. Myself, the SM and the CC have been discussing which Scouts should go. The idea of the first six qualified (age 13 by January 1 and at least First Class) Scouts to turn in their deposits get to go. We have also discussed that perhaps there should be some other criteria involved. Like was the Scout on the list last year? Do older Scouts who are possibly going to age out have precedence over younger Scouts? We can have up to three adults so do we open the one floating adult spot up to the two Scouts who will be 18 before the trip but were signed up last year? Should troop outings and meeting attendance be factored in? Note: We have not yet announced the trip to the Scouts and won't until I have secured the second adult. My question is how do your troops decide who is going on High Adventure when more than the crew size want to go? (This message has been edited by asm 411)

I was quite taken back by the creepy comment. Like several other people I have seen plenty of great Scouters without Scouts in the program. I think that the more involved a Scouter gets in the program the more they see the benefits. I think the comment was short sighted and perhaps she will reconsider over time. I think that having a Scoutmaster that has no Scouts in the troop is a benefit because his perspective of treating all Scouts equally is easier to obtain. There is no Scout in the troop that has an easier or harder path. Do others find Scoutless Scouters creepy? I don't thinks so because this is the first time I have heard the question even raised.(This message has been edited by asm 411)

I see cycling merit badge as an opportunity for Scouts to widen their world. By riding on the road they learn and practice the techniques that can be used to get from one place to another efficiently before they get their driver's license without relying on Mom and Dad. By encouraging the Scouts to ride on bike paths and not letting them the difference between roads that are too dangerous, roads that should be avoided if possible and where and how to ride safely I feel they are missing out. The bicycle is a great machine for going from place to place. Saying that all roads are too dangerous is akin to saying that we will buy cut and split wood for campouts because bow saws and axes are too dangerous. To use them safely is a matter of training. The same is true about riding a bicycle on the roads. There are certainly places where it is inappropriate to ride. There may be places where cycling should not be done at all especially by youths. Moving out from those densely populated areas, usually within a short drive, there are places with far less traffic. Places where even though the roads are narrow the traffic density is so light bikes and cars can easily share the road.

Before I became a Scouter about 6 years ago I was weighing in at about 180 lbs. Now I am at about 220 but I am trying to go back. I do still pass Lem's criteria but not by much. I think I took my exercise time and condensed it down to my one hour a week of Scouting instead. LOL On a more serious note I would like to say that I am not as fervent about Scouters being in shape as Lem but I do believe he is right. We should be trying to set a good example about physical fitness and by being overweight we are not being a good example.

In the previous thread a member made a statement about Scouts having to plan the routes for cycling merit badge. I wanted to point out that only requirement 9 requires this. "8. Avoiding main highways, take two rides of 10 miles each, two rides of 15 miles each, and two rides of 25 miles each. You must make a report of the rides taken. List dates, routes traveled, and interesting things seen.* 9. After fulfilling requirement 8, lay out on a road map a 50-mile trip. Stay away from main highways. Using your map, make this ride in eight hours." The routes for requirement 8 doesn't have to be planned by an individual Scout they just need to report what routes were taken. I think local cycling club rides work well for this activity because it opens the Scouts eyes to what kinds of options there are to not taking main roads. Cycling clubs are very good at finding routes parallel to major roads. For requirement 9 I see nothing wrong with two Scouts working together to plan the road route as long as each has his own map. Also a resourceful Scout will ask an experienced rider to look over the map and ask for opinions. I am surprised requirement 9 does not say "With your parent's and MBC's approval...". I think it is odd that taking a 50 mile bike trip does not require approval but watching a movie for Citizenship in the Community does. In my opinion the Cycling Merit Badge is intended for road riding. Here in Ohio we have a lot of bike paths that stretch great distances so it easy to requirement 8 without every seeing a stop light of 4 way intersection. Trying to stay clear of the "adding/changing requirements" scenario does anyone else see an inconsistancy here. What about what if a Scout were to take a road map in requirement 9 and draw the bike path on it to show where he rode? Yes I am a cycling MBC and I so far I have only had two Scouts to work on the badge with me. One Scout did all roads with his dad and one did mostly hike/bike trails with his troop. Has anyone else worked with scenario two and what did you do? In truth I counted the second Scout's work because when I road tested him for requirement 6 he was right on top of what to do and when to do it.

Our Troop does a Webelos Campout every year. For Webelos I dens each patrol works with them on pin requirements. Not the whole pin but requirements that work well for the Den leaders and the patrols. Knots, firestarting, leave no trace, parts of the Scout Badge... For Webelos II dens, who will be Boy Scouts in about 4 months, they get an introduction to Boy Scouts. They learn how to set up the troop tents, learn about cook boxes, help cook lunch( a couple Webelos II with each patrol), learn about duty rosters and menus... We usually have a pioneering project (tower, trebuchet...) going on in which the Webelos II help with and all Webelos get to enjoy. During the campfire program all the Dens and Patrols have skits/songs/run ons... to do. We take the Webelos Parents ( a captured audience as it were ) and go over how Boy Scouts is different than Cub Scouts and what the troop expectations are of parents. We go over the merit badge process, summer camp, troop philosophies... Hope this helps.

Hello Bob White, You wrote - "Since when is it the unit leaders role to deliver what the kids "expect" rather than deliver the scouting program? If they expect to be able to play dodge ball for 90 minutes a week is that what you are going to do? Adult leadership does not mean the abdication of leadership to the will of the youth members." Looking back at my posting I see why you may have read it this way. It was not my intent to say in any way that we should not be delivering the program as designed. Far from it, I am a firm belieiver that using the methods of Scouting to achieve the Aims of Scouting is what we should all be doing all the time. That being said my intention was that during the joining process we should be asking the incoming Scout what their expectations of Scouting are. Once we know then we can either verify his expectations or explain where his expectations are not in line with what we do. If we listen to those expectations and find that a large number of incoming Scouts would like to do something we don't currently do like canoeing then as Scouters we bring that up with SPL or the PLC. I never imagined anything like 90 minutes of dodgeball would be a boys expectation of Scouting. Just the same we could then enlighten this boy that is not what Scouting is about. Explain what Scouting is about and then he can decide if he is still interested. Perhaps even mention that we do play dodgeball occasionally if that is the case. I think knowing the expections of the incoming Scouts will help us improve the program and raise retention. It seems to me that most 10 and 11 years olds are not going to stand up and say "When are we going canoeing?" They will come to the meetings for a couple months not see what he is looking for and lose interest. A short conversation at the get go I think would go a long way to aligning the promise with the incoming Scout's expectation. It may even let him know that the Canoe trip is schedule for September and in the mean time we are doing these other "cool" things. Lincoln

I remember well doing three merit badges as classes when I was a Scout. They were the three Citizenships. It took about 3 months each. There were about 6 Scouts in the class. We met with one of the troop ASMs twice a month I think. We had discussions during the meetings and had to do the requirements as homework. If I remember correctly we even decided which requirements we, the Scouts, would be prepared to discuss at the next meeting. To me this is was what a merit badge class is and should be. Someone to provide an opportunity to get off our butts and to guide us. The good is that I think I learned a lot from the discussions in those meetings. From my perspective I don't think I was short changed because I did not have to be self-motivated to get started. FWIW in total I earned 39 merit badges in all. This obviously is much different from a one day class or working on merit badges during troop meetings. Just wanted to drop my two cents in on how having a merit badge class does not have to be an experience where Scouts get off easy.

Stosh, I think the number one reason is not delivering the ... expectation. I almost said "promise". What do boys "think" they are going to do in Scouting at all levels? Not what we tell them they are going to do in the first couple pages of the handbook. But what do they expect? Camping, Hiking, Canoeing??? Do we even bother to ask when they join? (Mental note, ask new Scouts from now on) Perhaps that is a great first SMC question. Parental expectations? How many parents, without an older boy having already been in cubs, show up to the Tiger Cub round up knowing their participation is going to be required for the next 10 months. Then in the next two subsequent years be responsible for their child's advancement. It is not until Webelos that we start to lift that burden from them. And we wonder why we have snowplow and helicopter parents show up at the Troop door. My opinion is that one way to slow Cub Scout attrition is to have the Webelos Den leader, Wolf may be better, run the Tiger Den for the first 3 meetings. Then step into the background for a few meetings but still be there to offer advice. Then be available as a mentor to the new Den leader. This way the Tigers don't start off with a half baked program. I wonder how many Tigers we lose in the first 30 days. I remember when I first started I had nothing to go. I got a hearty hand shake and welcome aboard speech which included "If you have any questions feel free to ask." I did not even know what questions to ask. The thing is I showed up wanting to be the Den Leader and I was a bit overwhelmed. What about the reluctant volunteers? In Boy Scouts the only way to deliver the expectation is to let the Scouts pick the activities and plan the events. Most everyone here knows this. How we go about doing it is often on a Troop by Troop basis. I feel an new topic about to be posted. ... Lincoln P.S. Stosh thanks for getting the gears spinning.

Stosh, In your calculations I think you forgot to take into account the number of Scouts that join along the way. For instance while working with the pack in town I saw one den cycle through about 30 boys in 5 years. The den size was never over 8. The number joining was great. The attrition rate was horrible. Along those same lines I have been wondering lately about the whole 2-5% statistics. A couple years ago I found solid numbers that since inception the BSA has had about 2% of the Scouts involved earn Eagle and in 2005 in particular 5% of the Scouts involved earned Eagle. Does this mean it is easier, the leaders are better trained or more focused on advancemet, or something else. I started to wonder if percentages are a good measure. For instance would it be better to look at the number of Eagle Scouts each year to see if there are more or less. Simple because 5% of 100 is 5 and 2% of 250 is 5. If we have more Scouts involved that don't make Eagle but become good, healthy, productive citizens isn't that better. Another random thought along the lines of how statistic will hurt you is the whole first class first year thing. "If a Scout earns first class in the first year he is more likely to stay in Scouting." Therefore let's focus on getting them to first class in the first year. Perhaps the reason is that because the Scouts that earn First Class, without being pushed, in the first year like Scouting more.