KC9DDI

Let's pretend that you should actually "report" this to the police and the professional staff... What kind of response would you expect to get from them? What kind of action would you expect the police to take? How about your DE? Who would benefit from this report - and how would that individual benefit? It's OK to think beyond the "black and white" guidelines published by a private corporation when deciding whether to call in re-enforcements to deal with the relatively common occurance of a teenage boy looking at porn...

To paraphrase Beavah: ya, hmmmm... I think we all occasionally need to step back and remember that Scouting is not a religion, and the Eagle award is not some kind of sacred relic or holy grail that teenagers need to spend years spiritually preparing themselves for. So this hypothetical kid honestly shares with you his goal and his motivation for his participation in Scouting. The fact that his goals and motivations don't fit into some overly romanticized version of a Norman Rockwell Scout aren't particularly relevant to whether or not he's qualified to advance. How does the Scout actually behave within the troop? Does he continually grumble and complain about having to participate? Or does he cheerfully try to make the best of it? Part of becoming a responsible adult is sometimes having to do things that you'd rather not do. Be honest: have you ever done something only because your parents, your spouse or your children have asked you to? I'll bet you have. And while you were doing whatever that thing was to the best of your ability, would you have appreciated a person in a position of authority criticizing you based on your motivations? Now, if the Scout starts to develop behavior or participation problems, or fails to uphold the Oath and Law, then maybe you'd have grounds for delaying advancement. But so far it doesn't seem like that's an issue.

I should add that tent camping is only $0.50/person/night - maybe not the absolute cheapest around, but still very reasonable. Building rental is obviously more - depending on the building, could be anywhere from $50 to $300 for a weekend. Couldn't imagine paying $150 for two nights of tent camping, unless other facilities or program is included in that figure.

My council has three properties with a variety of facilities, and all are used fairly heavily year round. Camp #1 is located within the council boundaries, in what is now a fairly suburban area that's an easy drive for the majority of the council. It also has several heated buildings with nice cooking facilities, a fire bowl, facilities for archery and BB guns, and tent camping areas. It's used very heavily for training programs, Cub camp programs, camporees, and other district and council events, as well units camping. The buildings mean that it's used year round, and it's usually booked pretty solid up to a year or more in advance. Camp #2 is located outside the council boundaries, probably a 1-2 hour drive from most of the council. Facilities are more primitive (but there's plans for some improvements), but there's a lot of acreage. It's probably less popular than Camp #1, but still fairly heavily used for camporees, training and unit camping. Camp #3 is the council's full-service summer camp. It's located well outside the council boundaries (3-4 hour drive), so it's not heavily used for weekend camping in the off season. It is, however, located within a short drive of several skiing/snowboarding facilities - so during the winter, it's used as a "base" for troops doing skiing/snowboarding. So it's packed pretty solid during the winter, but probably less so during the spring and fall. I don't think any of our camps are very heavily used by non-Scouting groups, though I know some do make use of some of the properties - mostly during the week, to keep them open for Scout camping on the weekends.

Hmmm... Maybe we could try this: We take references to God out of the Oath and the Pledge. But then, if you want to, you could quietly, respectfully say those parts anyway? Forcing everyone who is already in the program to change, because the new comers are going to demand everyone adapt to their way of doing things, will not happen.. This irrational fear sounds frighteningly similar to other historic "arguments" against allowing "newcomers" into our neighborhoods, churches, beaches, business establishments and schools. The fear that the atheist if given an inch will demand and lobby and fight in court for the BSA to change everything to remove God in everything to accomidate them, is the fear that will keep them out of being accepted in the BSA way longer then the Gays will be kept out. So basically it's just a slippery slope argument? We're not going to rationally look at a reasonable idea since someone else might come along later with an unreasonable idea? I do not understand, why you can not see forcing everyone who currently is in scouting to change deep seeded beliefs is not a slap in the face for them And I still don't see who is asking (sorry, forcing) you to change your beliefs. Is your faith really so weak that it would be damaged if the BSA became a truly secular organization? Surely it's based on something more than 3 letters in the Scout Oath, right? If you don't think those beliefs are just as strong with people in scouting, you are blind. I see that there's strong beliefs. I just don't believe that there's a legitimate reason for the BSA to use these beliefs as a basis for it's program. And that's really what I'm getting at. It's really not enough to "welcome" atheists as long as they know when to sit down, shut up, and not "disrespect" good Christians like ourselves. If we truly want to welcome atheists into our program, as I feel we should, then we can't use our Scout Oath, a central component of our program, as a source of division. The Scout Oath should apply equally strongly to ALL Scouts who we welcome into our program - without needing to individually add or remove phrases. I don't know - my faith in God is strong enough that I don't feel I need to mention it at the weekly meetings of an outdoors-oriented youth group. And I don't feel threatened by those who haven't come to the same religious or philosophical conclusions that I have. I don't see how Scouting would be a weaker program by secularizing.

moose - Those are valid points. Though I have to wonder if there's a better solution for the minority of COs you're referring to. Your solution is that people can basically say whatever they want and call it the Scout Oath, which I think creates a source of division in what should be an Oath common to all American Boy Scouts. Maybe something like this: The Boy Scout Oath (and it's counterparts in Cub Scouts and Venturing), remain "generic" and applicable to all who are qualified to be members of the organization. And, in this hypothetical world, that would involve removing the words "to God." Churches or other faith-based COs who wish to use Scouting as a vehicle to deliver their religious education programs can then optionally include their own religious declarations or rituals in their local Scouting program. So a Catholic troop might recite the Apostles' Creed along with the Oath and Law, if the CO decides that it would be a useful part of their Scouting program. To me that seems like the best of both worlds - the Scout Oath can be a common promise that unites all American Boy Scouts, while units with a strong religious background can incorporate other traditions and rituals into their own program. You seem to be worried that someone's going to "disrespect" you (and I still don't claim to know exactly what we mean by "respect" in this context) if the Scout Oath suddenly becomes applicable to all Scouts. As a Christian myself, I don't see it as disrespectful if an atheist doesn't want to participate in my religious traditions and beliefs just to have the privilege of participating in my (non-religious) unit. But, I can not see, forcing every BSA unit to give up anything pertaining to religion in order to welcome in the Atheists.. That is being disrespectful of the beliefs of alot of our current units. I still don't know where you're getting this idea of "anything pertaining to religion" being taken away BY FORCE.... But regarding people's beliefs: You're not going to find two people with the same set of beliefs (the pastor of my childhood parish liked to joke "You can't get two Catholics to agree on the time for the church picnic, much less on any matter of theology!") The question is how much should various "beliefs" affect a program of a generic youth group with a focus on the outdoors and (sorry Kudu) leadership development? Personally, I don't see why my belief in God needs to be part of the BSA's program. Now, if a religious group wants to use the BSA's program as a component of their religious programs, then Godspeed (no pun intended). But why does this "belief" need to apply to everyone? I don't care about my grocer, barber, mechanic or boss's belief (or lack thereof) in God. That doesn't affect whether I'll buy my groceries, cut my hair, fix my car, or post on Scouter.com instead of doing work. Same deal with the BSA - Religion isn't really on the list of factors that I use to evaluate my fellow Scouters.

if all those who believe in the line "do my duty to God", are forced to change what they believe in to accomidate the atheists. Moose - How would removing two words from the Oath "force" you to change what you believe? You're saying that you'd no longer be able to believe in God unless He's mentioned in the man-made Oath of an American youth group? Maybe we differ on what we perceive the purpose of the Scout Oath to be? I don't feel that the Scout Oath should be a declaration or enumeration of the "beliefs" of anyone. There's all kinds of things I believe in - religious and otherwise - that aren't mentioned in the Scout Oath. But, the line should stay in for those who still wish to say it and believe in it... I happen to believe that A-frame tents are far superior to the domed variety. Is it OK if I include that somewhere when I recite the Scout Oath - after all, I wish to say it, and I believe in it. Maybe Kudu would like to toss in some beliefs about 300 feet and/or leadership skills? :-) I guess there's nothing stopping me from saying that, but that would be kind of silly, wouldn't it? Look at just the first nine words of the Scout Oath: "On my honor, I will do my best to..." We're not talking about what we believe in - we're talking about what Scouts are pledging to do. To be more clear, we're talking about what all American Boy Scouts are pledging to do. So, hypothetically, if the powers that be decide that our atheist friends are in fact capable of being good Scouts and Leaders - how can we possibly ask them to pledge to do something that they cannot do? It's not a matter of accommodating anyone or anything, or forcing people to believe one thing or another - it's a question of what we actions should be asking members of our organization to promise to carry out. (This message has been edited by KC9DDI)

Sure.

I think you're taking some liberties with the definitions of well-established words, jrush. Atheism is the belief that their is no God or other supreme being or beings (according to my dictionary). That doesn't preclude an atheist from "respecting" your belief in anything you want - just like a Christian isn't automatically unable to "respect" the beliefs of Jews or Muslims or atheists. In fact, many organized religions (definitely not atheists) don't necessarily "respect" the beliefs of others. (I'm putting "respect" in quotes as I'm not entirely sure what it's supposed to mean in this context.) For example, certain Christian denominations feel that their brand of Christianity is the only valid one, and that other's beliefs aren't "valid." This kind of ties in to one of my "issues" with the BSA's current policy on the matter: we work hard to come up with work-arounds to the problem: "Well, Duty To God doesn't actually mean Duty To God, it just means 'respecting' others." Or, "well, I know you're an atheist, but maybe if you just say that you think the Earth is a 'higher power', then that'll be good enough for our purposes." I'd rather just welcome our atheist friends into the program, rather than asking them to re-define their philosophy to fit into some loop hole or work-around that we've tried to devise.

Awesome, thanks for the quick replies. I thought it was a Rockwell, but I wasn't sure. It seems like one of his less well-known works then (apparently he has another entitled "A Scout is Loyal" featuring Abe Lincoln and George Washington.) Also it looks like eBay has a few available. Thanks again!

Hello All - Several years ago I noticed a particular Scouting-themed painting that I rather liked. I have no idea who the artist is, what it's called, or where/if I could find a print to purchase. I managed to find the image on a troop's website: http://bcn.boulder.co.us/community/scouts/troop61/t6197octthe.htm Does anyone happen to have any information on this particular piece of art? I'd like to potentially acquire a print, but don't know where to start looking...

I would like to know where I can find the official written policy. If your council has a written policy on the matter, it would be available through your council's professional staff. More likely, it's just a target, or a goal, that some councils or some districts have. Personally, I'm happy with the philosophy of one of our professional advisers: charge as reasonable a rate as possible, as that will increase attendance. Factor in a small amount of "cushion" in the price, to account for any unexpected expenses that may arise. Yes, council keeps to keep whatever's left over, but it's pretty much a win-win-win: participants are charged a fair, reasonable fee; volunteers running the event aren't forced to cut out program if expenses prove to be more than expected; and the council gets some financial support. Yes, I'm sure that there's some districts and councils who have less reasonable guidelines, but fortunately I don't have to deal with them :-)

Units would want to purchase AOL for scouts not having Webelos recorded, ranks but no Bobcat, etc. The store staff really didn't have time to check everyone's record. So, why is this a problem? How is the Scout negatively affected if the council doesn't have a record of his Bobcat badge?

What would you do, publicly smack him down for disrespecting the esteemed committee members? Give me a break. Nope, but I would probably privately remind him that it's impolite and inappropriate to address people in that tone. I have heard far worse and insulting comments from uniformed Scouters during committee meetings We all have. It's inappropriate for adults to act that way. But that doesn't excuse Scouts from acting that way, either.

shortridge - Lets substitute just a few words in what he reportedly said: "If it takes a 12-year-old kid to come up here and tell you we don't need a new jail troop trailer and we need better education tents, then that's pretty sad. Here I am, an A, B student in my school, and I have to come up to," he said, pausing to count aloud, "nine people just to say we don't need this new jail trailer. Bye." How would you respond to a Scout that used that tone and those words towards your troop committee?