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We all should keep them in our thoughts and prayers. Loosing a loved one is tough, loosing one so young in unimaginable.

I knew this would get it's own thread Does our troop have any attendance rules and or expectations? YES (if so what are they) We expect a boy, in order to get the most out of the program, and in order to give leadership via his POR, to attend 7 out of 10 outings and 3 out of 4 meetings. Scouts that cannot manage this level of participation should step down from Positions of Responsibility and consult with the SM regarding their availability. Now this lends itself to advancement, in that a boy must hold a POR for a defined period of time. In our troop, we expect the boy to fulfill his obligation to his position, and if he can't or won't, we ask him to step down. If he doesn't we remove him after a discussion at the PLC. If a scout has not fulfilled the requirements for "be active in your troop and patrol" and "serve actively for xxx months in on of the PORs" then he doesn't earn the rank. The above items, 7 out of 10 outings and 3 out of 4 meetings is described as 80%. This is on a "most recent 6 months" calendar. If a scout has a school obligation that is unavoidable, he is excused, same with illness or family death. If a youth has unexcused absences, non-unit or extra scouting activities can be used as "makeup" attendance. Our high adventure trip during the summer for instance can take up a lot of slack. Attending OA functions, meetings, etc. can take up a whole lot as well. I had one young man that was aging out and had finished his Eagle requirements. His attendance was horrible to non existent, so I made a deal with him.. He needed to give me 6 good months of involvement after his 18th birthday. He agreed and did. He still comes to meetings and he's almost 20. The rule works well to remind the older boys they have a responsibility to the troop, but the SM has discretion in all cases. This rule is rarely an issue, and when it has been, we've worked it out to the benefit of the boy and the troop. I like Acco's reprint of his troops policy. Ours is similar, but takes up a lot more space so I won't waste that bandwidth...yet...

I've had the "frickin", "flippin", faux "F" Word rule for a while in our troop. Using a replacement explitive is still swearing and Swearing is a dirty habbit, like lying, like picking your nose, like other dirty little habbits. It's bad behavior and must not be tollerated or condoned. We, as adult leaders, must set the example. OGE has a pretty good idea. Since we adults must make a conscious effort to promote positive change in our units, it's only right that the boys follow our lead. If you have a language problem, give the boys the same rule OGE did, they may use whatver language a designated member of the adult staff does, or even a young man. I have one boy in my troop who I would recommend to be Pope. He's been one of the most influential members of our unit. Every boy and some adults look up to him. He's simply a very positive, very well mannered, and very popular kid. He sets a high standard, and many try and follow it. I'm very lucky. I make an effort to set a standard as well. Among other things, the language and demenor I bring to the meetings and outings must meet my own expectations of what I expect of the boys, and other adults, too. I give no quarter and if I make a mistake, even if they don't hear it, I appologize in front of them as I would expect them to do.

I think that allowing the PLC to make a recommendation, through the SPL to the Troop Committee is a positive productive thing. The boys should feel empowered to help make decisions alongside adults. That's where they learn to do it after all. Case in point: My family owns a small business. My father, a Scoutmaster by the way, made each one of us (6 sibs) equal partners in the business. By the time he retired, we each had 1/6 ownership in the company. We also each had 1/6 ownership in the decisions and problems too boot. We do business with other family owned operations. In one of them, and I'm talking a huge company, the father would make ALL of the decisions until he died. The next generation quickly drove the business into the ground because they were never allowed to make mistakes. We need to provide for good, healthy youth/adult relationships to foster independent ethical thinking and decision making. We use the Patrol Method to help this out, holding PLC's, empowering our leaders to do their jobs...I think allowing this input from the boys to the committee is a good thing.

When I discuss this with the people in my unit, there's always some confusion, mostly with the adults. Adults want to make conditions on Scout Spirit such as attendance, service project hours, etc. I'm guilty of this as well, at least I have been in the past. Scout Spirit is living the ideals of Scouting in your every day life. We don't ask boys to hold up the Scout Sign when they see a teacher want's a room quiet. We don't ask them to wear thier uniform to show "scout spirit" as as ASM of mine once asked...We determine if they've been displaying Scout Spirit in thier actions and deeds and that's as far as that goes...and that determination is generally left up to the Scoutmaster to deal with during the SM Confrence. That's as good a place to discuss it IMO. The attendence is an issue close to my heart as well. We use the requirement "be active in your troop and patrol for x months" to enforce an 80% policy. The troop committee came up with 80% of all events as a number to strive for when determining if the boy had fulfilled the requirement. There is generally no guidelines given for this, nothing quanitative anyway. 80% attendance is not an absolute, just a guideline in determining if the requirement is met. This is another of those spin off topics I think.

I've had both of these same scenarios in my troop recently. Regarding Scenario #1, we had 3 14yo boys in my troop earn Eagle together, or should I say we had the mothers of 3 14yo boys Earn Eagle one year. The boys did learn and two of the three did contribute (the one that didn't was the son of the CC, she did all the contributing, and she was the biggest pusher for "finishing" scouting). When the 3 received thier Awards at the ECoH, 2 dropped out immediately, and 1 stayed active for another 1 1/2 years. We decided as a group at that time we would discourage any boys from becoming Eagle prior to thier 16th birthday. After what seemed to be a waste of our time and efforts with the two boys that bailed on the troop after receiving thier Eagle, the parents were very disturbed, not to mention the younger scouts. "Why didn't they stick around to help" is still the question I get from my senior scouts. A hard one to answer to be sure. We haven't had that issue since then because we explain to the parents on thier initial visit exactly what you've got going on in this thread and make them understand that they are needed to support and nudge, not pull or shove kicking and screaming. Scenario #2 comes up more often, and I've decided it's my problem, not the parents. Parent's want what's best for thier sons, we all do. I have to make my son go to meetings occasionally, it's just the teenage years creaping in, and it tells me there's something missing for them, the older boys. Younger kids don't usually have this issue, but when they do I make sure to sit down with them and a parent and explain that it's not ok to make the troop or it's meetings a place where a war of wills are to take place. This seems to get people thinking in the right direction.

Any news on this yet, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a good outcome.

I'm also an FOS Presenter, in fact, I've been the FOS Chair for my district for the last 4 years. Don't kill the messenger I like to say... In viewing some of the local 990's, I'd say "you get what you pay for" and believe me I know what I'm talking about. Is $200,000 for a top executive a lot of money? Depends on several factors. How much revenue is coming in to pay that 200 G's. For a council that earns 3.5 - 5.0 Million that seems like an awful lot, but that top executive is on the hook for a lot. Remember as well that it's not BSA that sets the actual compensation, it's the council executive board. They're they employers of the SE and they set the actual amount. That compensation may not always be in the form of a paycheck either, but must me related in dollars just the same. In my previous council, the SE made a bit over 100G. He lost twice that amount in unrecoveralbe revenue losses. In this newer council, our SE makes about 200G's, but we're the 11th largest in the nation and growin like a weed, and not just from gobblin up the neighbors either. His management style has kept our cost per youth served to a very low number, something that's much easier to talk about at an FOS presentation than in years past.

I've been hinting about a crew to them, but they don't want to seriously talk about it up just yet. Most have been together for almost 12 years now, so they're really tightly bonded but ready to move on if you see what I mean. 12 years, 3/4 of thier young lives, have been spend in the same program with virtually the same people. That's a pretty heavy commitment already. I've got 3 part time ASM's or JASM's now(get to see them when college schedules avail). I may be able to keep 2 or 3 at any rate in some form or another. I've got one that is a very accomplished musician, but can't make up his mind at what he wants to study at college. Music? Nah, that's fun stuff, he want's to make lots of money...HA! One kid started his own business making custom pottery. He's very good at it, but hasn't made a dime since he's spending most of his time making "gifts" for others. One want's to be a Veternarian, one an electronics engineer...quite a diverse group. As we spread them to the wind, like so many seeds, I think this is really where being a Scoutmaster will pay off...All those years of "fetilizing and germinating" will produce a great product for society to guage the success of our program. Don't get me wrong, I get "Paid back" every meeting, every outing, every occasion I'm with my kids, but seeing the character of a young man when he's away from the very people that spend years shaping and mentoring, that's the real goal here. Besides, I'm pretty sure I'll be seing these boys on and off for a while. My father was a Scoutmaster in the 50's and 60's. He had some of his scouts still visiting him up until his death some years ago. I'm hoping for that to be the rule rather than the exception, but I'm sure that all depends on their experiences while they were/are in the troop.

We take a multi-tiered approach. We have elections every 6 months and ask that those who have just finished serving take some time off and let others take the reigns. We cycle through the kids on a pretty regular basis. The new leaders are given copies of the PL handbook and SPL handbook. They're given an overview by the ASM Patrol advisors and the SM in the case of the SPL. We hold a JLT once a year for everyone in the troop. Leadership is a cooperative effort and we encourage everyone to demonstrate it and participate in it always. We send all eligable boys to NYLT in our council, which is a week long course. They come back with a ticket and pumped up about finishing it...Sound familiar? We have so many outings and activities that our Senior leadership are not always able to attend, and sometimes don't need to attend. The SM will appoint a boy as acting SPL for the event so that he can show his stuff. This little snippet is quite an insight into the future of younger boy's leadership styles and abilities. You get a real sense of who is ready and who needs some more coaching. We use the skills of every boy who has been through NYLT as a form of Troop Guide or Instructor and give them distinct responsibilities in the Troop. The SPL and the SM define thier areas of responsibility or assign them a patrol to mentor. For example we have one older boy that is responsible for training the boys to make "professional" presentations during troop meetings. He does a great job, too. It's my opinion that boys will learn aobut 50% out of books, or attending a seminar or what ever, but if you give them opportunity to practice leadership and give them ownership in the process, they'll flourish and actually "get it". There's a lot of stuff in the middle too, but these are the big pieces.

I'm having a problem and I don't think I'm alone. I am in denial. The problem is that a good portion of my troop, almost 1/3, will be aging out in the next 18 months. Heck, my son turns 16 in a few weeks... I've only been SM of this troop for 2 years, but this current herd of boys has really gotten under my skin. Before it was one or two here or there that adopted me as their 2nd Dad, but now it's 8 fantastic young men that make me proud each and every day...God I'm gonna miss them. Out of the 8, 2 are 99% complete with Eagle reqs, just some cleanup to go. 3 more are planning Eagle Projects, including my son, and the other 3 arent too far behind. What a crop. I'm goin to have a real issue when it comes time to let them go. I'm probably going to have to seek counselling. It's tough having to forge relationships with a boy of 11 or so and give him many years of mentoring, training, discipline, more mentoring...only to have to turn him loose on the world. At our committee meeting last week, my SPL was reporting the "State of the Troop" address to the adults. He and I work really well as a team. He's more capable than most of them quite frankly. He knows it and they know it. I was sitting in my folding chair (cause I'm just a guest for the meeting) next to this boys mom. I looked at her and told her that I'm in denial about his age. She patted me on the shoulder and said I could come play with him at her house anytime...ha! And the next two groups coming along...They're great kids too..what am I gonna do. What a problem to have.

I think that one of the worst parts of our "job" as leaders is having to dish out discipline. I'm really not worried about correcting a scout for making a mistake, or for simple odd errors in judgement, but what chaps my hide (I've been wanting to use that term for a while) is when I'm dealing with behaviors that start at home. Not the messy slob that won't pick up his dirty crunchy underwear in his tent, but the kid that bullies others and gets kudos from mom and dad for being a tough guy. And so begins my saga... When my son and I joined the troop I'm in now, there were these two brothers. They were much bigger than the other kids, but they were also some of the youngest kids in the troop. They had been having behavior issues for a while before I arrived on the scene, and I was warned about them when I started taking a leadership role. The warnings weren't over the top, just "keep an eye on these two, if you don't mind". One meeting the boys were playing a game during the meeting. These two, plus one other kid, ganged up on a boy and made numerous threats that they were going to kick his butt, and that if he told anyone he was going to get it twice as bad. The stupid thing was that they did this in front of others in the troop and in front of one adult. I was the CC at the time and the Scoutmaster was on vacation. It was left up to me to meter out punishment and deal with the issues. I held a meeting between the kid who was threatened and the boys that did the threatening. Ultimately nothing good came of it since the boy who was threatened and his father both quit the troop that night and left scouting, and the parents of the boys that perpetrated the assault denied all involvement and even tried to place blame on the victim. It was a messy scene and one I'd never want to re-live. When the SM came home, I talked to him and he told me of a previous agreement with the brothers...if they were involved in an incident again involving harming another scout that they would be asked to leave the troop. We had to have another meeting with them and thier parents and explain things again... Fast foward a year. While I'm at the 05 Jamboree, the troop goes to summer camp. The SPL for the trip is a boy that has served as SPL in the troop before and understands his responsibilities. He is a freind to these brothers and is in fact the other boy involved in the previous incidence noted above. During camp he asked one of the brothers to act as his ASPL, the 2nd brother didn't attend. Between the two of them, the SPL and the acting ASPL, they ran the troop like they were wise guys on the streets of flatbush. They broke every rule the troop had regarding bullying and improper interpersonal behavior...it was so bad that by the time they came back from summer camp, 10 of my youngest scouts called me and wanted to quit the troop. When asked why the younger boys didn't complain to the adults, the answer was simple, one of the adults on the trip, and the one who fielded all of the complaints, was the father of the acting ASPL...when they complained, he just blew them off, or worse, told his son who did the complaining. I had to interview all of the kids attending summer camp, and talk to all of the parents. At that point I knew what I had to do with the boy who had agreed to never touch another scout, he was asked to leave the troop. The other boy, the SPL, I asked to take 2 months off from the troop, resign his current position, and not take another leadership POR for 6 months (boys dreamed this one up, not me). I took this to the committee, they approved it. The boy asked to leave did, but his brother and mother remained for a while, causing a lot of heartburn and nausea. The boy asked to take time off also left the troop, along with his 2 brothers and ASM father... This was a heartbreaking time for the troop, but in the end we are a stronger unit with a better culture after the summer of '05. Luckily this doesn't happen very often which is why I'm able to keep my youthful appearance.

Our troop uses tarps or plastic sheeting. The entire patrol can fit under one or two tarp lean-to's. They're open to the world so behavior isn't usually an issue. I can see them wriggling around like worms from my place in the adult area. It's good to be king! We don't use tents for younger scouts because they don't take care of them. They have to earn the right to bring a tent along on a campout and use it, first class is one requirement, demonstrating propper care is another. It's an incentive for younger boys to advance in rank.

I can see it now... Eagle Pete's Wife "Eagle Pete, how did you get banned from Scouter Forums?" Eagle Pete "Well, OGE started talking about OFS, then he tossed an LOL" EPW "Uh Huh, go on" EP "Then of coures Gonzo1 riled me up with OFS, CRS, BTW, LOL, IMO, IMHO, CBS, NBC, PDQ, XYZ, and PX" EPW "Not sure I'm following Eagle Pete, but go on" EP "Then OGE tossed out PL, APL, ASPL, SPL, JASM, SM, ASM, CC, CM, COR, IH, CA, ACA, DE, FD, SE... you see where this is leading" EPW "I wonder if our health insurance covers this exactly" EP "And we can't forget FOS, SME, KISMIF, LSMFT, EVOO, PFD, or OEM" EPW "Get to the point Eagle Pete" EP "Well I got into the moment and typed out...w...t...#, and that's when I got banned" EPW "I'm calling your mother..." Peer pressure EP, it's all about the peer pressure "the other guys were doin it".

Wow this thread really took a weird turn...LOL EVOO = Extra Virgin Olive Oil, as touted by Rachel Ray, the lil sparky 30 minute meal chef. SSDD = Same STUFF Different Day

EVOO Love that one, use it all the time. SOP SOS SSDD (sorry) ROFLM_O WWJD TTFN

Lot's of good stuff in this thread. My troop, for standard operational dollars, asks that each scout bring in 100 aluminum cans per month. This will pay for our standard program of patches and standard expendatures. Years ago the parents decided they "did not want to be a fund raising institution, they wanted to be a scout troop." So we typically don't participate in the Popcorn sale, however each boy is given the opportunity to do that on his own when the time comes. We have in the past done car washes to fund Eagle Projects. We've wrapped gifts outside local retailers. The retailer usually offers the wrapping, boxes, and bags, we get "tipped" for the work. It's actually very lucerative. Big money comes from grants from employers. Some of the adults employers will pay for the hours they serve doing community service. Some will offer a few hundred dollars a year per employee to a charity, one parent's company matched 3 to 1 every dollar the employee donated, up to 10G's...now that's a donation.

Yea, what local1400 says... And it seems the training committee isn't paying much attention to it's own calendar. University of Scouting is a new thing for me, our council recenlty merged with a huge neighbor. I was excited to attend, but let down when I got there for various reasons. that asside, Who's gonna be providing the presentations at the UoS? I would think you'd want your best and brightest working the UoS event and the TDC...someone's got some 'splainin to do. I may have cracked the O.F.S. come to think of it..."Old _art Syndrome"...no disrespect sir, just making the letters work out is all...

FWIW, I'm no expert keep in mind. This is my experience. First off a lot depends on the "culture" of the troop. Cliquish behavior can be ignored or we can give it some reasonable competition. Giving each of the clique members jobs that make them responsible for welcoming the newer boys, perhaps becoming a troop guide for the new scout patrol, or for the patrols they're put in may help. Make them own the program that incorporates new boys. Most older boys will work hard on welcoming new kids faced with the reality that if they don't promote their unit, it will die and nobody wants to see that happen. A scout will want to come back and visit the little scouties and show that at one time he's been there, done that. whenever we have an alumni visit, I put them to work and they Love it. If I have older boys acting like they don't want to socialize with the younger boys (happens all the time) I sit them down and explain how important it is that they give them the time their due, and I ask how they responded to the older boys when they joined and how they were treated. It really makes them think about their actions. I also make a point of talking with each boy every meeting or campout. It may only be a "Hey Johnny, how's the trumpet playing" or "Fred, missed you last week, boy did we have fun". I make an effort to watch a game they're playing in, for some reason most of the boys in my troop into sports are into swimming and water polo. Almost like the soccer illness that's spreading (BG). That way I can see them in another venue and support them that way. They respond to this very well. I am also a very hands on kinda guy. I will give and take hugs from the kids, I offer them a comforting pat on the shoulder, I make a big deal about birthdays, report cards, any other achievements...one year one of my boys was the US Soapbox Derby Champ. #1 in the Nation, that's big stuff. We put up a display of that in the meeting room and he's a celebrity. I try to impress that each boy has something to offer the unit and that they're all very important to the whole.

Sounds like you were in my district in 2003. I had not been too keen on the district since I wasn't terribly involved. I went to WB and needed to give service and such for my ticket items, but when it came to offering that help, there was nobody there. My then DE, like yours, was about as useful as utters on a bull (cleaned that up a bit). I finally ended up calling on the DE for the district my company was in. She had visited me in the past asking how I can give to scouting. When I explained that I was in another district, it didn't phase her, she just said that's great, but how will you give to this district...ha! She got back to me within a couple days with all the info I needed. Somehow, she became the DE of my district. At the time she recruited a new Dist Chair, she had me for FOS, she had another WB'er for Popcorn Kernel, and that was about it. She started building the Dist committee back up and although it took almost 2 years, we had the best Committee in the Council. We're very strong now and getting bigger every month. There's always a new face at our meetings and Roundtables are full, morale is at a high point. I would say if it wasn't for her and our Dist Chair, we'd still be languishing in our own depressed state. Sounds like you need some fresh blood at the helm, but from reading your other threads it doesn't sound like you want to get into the Dist. Operations as deeply as you would have to in order to be successful. You're kind of in a pickle. Good luck

Our Troop is small, we have 25 boys registered, 23 active. We have a well trained adult leadership base and our older scouts attend NYLT and are expected to provide leadership to the troop for years after thier initial training. We currently have 7 boys 16 -17 years old. We attempt to recruit 6 - 8 new boys a year. When I joined the troop, I brought 5. My son is the only survivor of that crossover. The next year we got...Zippo. No new scouts. This is a wonderful troop, but nobody knew who we were and were we met. I started attending Roundtable. I showed up and helped out, but I've never been officially on RT staff. As a ticket item I became the district FOS Chairman, which I still am, and that gave me face time with the different units. I made (still make) presentations to troops and packs all over my district. Another ticket item was to join the district training team. I did and am still a member in good standing. I do TDC, NLE, YPT, SM/ASM Specific, ITOLS. Now I'm going to be on WB Staff. I recruit other members of our adult leadership to do the same as well. The amount of time we personally spent promoting scouting helped us recruit 12 new scouts last year...that may not sound like a lot, but we're considered a high adventure troop. We backpack almost everwhere we go and that is our emphasis. We're one of two in the district that "specialize" in this type of camping. We don't expect to get that many boys, and the other troop will only take a few a year. 12 new boys offered us a challenge to get enough new adults trained to get the job done. What a good problem to have. Because I'm known in the district, and council for that matter, I bring some recognition to my unit. The unit is active in comporee's (honor patrol 2 of last 3 years) and other events as well. We also send out a mailer to CM's, Pack CC's, W1 and W2 leaders to advertise our opportunities for day hikes with our troop. We do a City Day hike ending in a bbq twice a year and a wilderness day hike (ending in a long nap) twice a year. The boys and the parents get an idea of what we're all about. My troop joining experience: When I joined the troop, I didn't know about it, or the scoutmaster at the time. Turned out he's quite a legend in our neck of the woods. Originally I told my W2 parents to look for a boy led troop, little adult interaction at the meeting, the boy should have a good time, the troop should be well organized with good leadership at the top, well trained, WB Trained SM hopefully and have plenty of money...well funded I guess you'd say. We scheduled 3 troops in the area. 1 was huge, over 100 boys. Our parents liked the troop, good adults, but the boys hated the troop. Went to another, and I wanted to run, W3 den all over again. we left early. Went to troop 3 and everything was mediocre, nobody wanted to commit either way. My neighbor, who I'd never really talked to before, heard that I'd been doing visits. He came to my house and did a sales pitch for about an hour on his son's troop and his Scoutmaster, the legend I mentioned above. I told him I'd check it out to shut him up, thinking all along I had no interest since it's a backpacking troop and I'm way out of shape. Long story...long... my boys loved it, wanted to join that night, thought the boys of the other troop were thier newest best friends, and all of my parents were equally impressed. Wow, what a fantastic group. I was still skeptical but since my son said "dad, I want this troop" what could I do. I'm starting my 6th year with them and am looking forward to the next 6. I'm still out of shape, but at least I look good in a back pack... Our formula for recruiting -- Adults and troop active in District giving recognition to the unit in the eyes of the Den and Pack leaders in the area. Provide an outstanding first event for them to attend, even if it's just a Troop Meeting, make it boy run fun all the way. This seems to work well for us.

"Are we safe here"? No would be the true answer, and you know it's true, the other would say yes which would be false. I either got it right or I really blew it... When you ask the question, what if the guard was like the "corsican" on Princess Bride. "If you ask me is it safe, and I answer no, then you'll know I'm lying, however if I answer yes, then you'll think I'm telling the truth, but if I answer maybe..." I love that movie.

You've gotten some really great advice here and I'll admit that IMO every troop has issues similar to this. The Scoutmaster should know what's going on. If the boys feel comfortable talking to you about it, it is your duty to bring it up to the Scoutmaster. Adults do weird things all the time. We make mistakes as often as the boys do, sometimes more often. It is just as important for us to learn the how's and why's as it is for the boys. The CC has been to training? Doesn't sound like she's been paying attention. Perhaps she should attend SM specific trainaing and that would give her some more insight on how to leave the boys alone in getting things done. The Scoutmaster will have to step in soon and basically say that she either stop her counter-productive behavior or stop attending outings. I've had to do it before, and I'll probably have to do it again before I'm done being a SM. Mentoring at the SM level happens with youth and adults, so the SM needs to step up and earn his pay. (HA, pay...that's funny) Maybe earn his patch would be a better term. There of course are diplomatic ways of getting this done. Subtle hints aren't working? Perhaps letting her know how the kids feel about going on any more campouts with her. This is very distructive to the Troop and it needs to be dealt with soon. If she's into scouting like it sounds she is, knowing this may help change her behavior... The more I think about this the more issues I bring up...In my unit, we had a similar issue. We had one mom who refused to take our insistance that her son sleep with his patrol, not with her, he would carry his own stuff (up to his weight limit), that the patrol cook for themselves, etc., she would leave him alone. This would work on Saturday hike in, but come Sunday morning, son would be snuggled next to mom in mom's tent and it was just disgusting and ridiculous. The previous SM and I would take her, her husband and their son out to coffee during the meeting and explain how damaging this was to the rest of the troop. The agreed and said they'd change. They never did. When I finally took over as SM and I finally put my foot down, they stopped attending outings, then meetings...someone had to be the bad guy. I guess I would offer, if training doesn't help, then a SM proclomation may be needed. Good luck, sounds like you may need it.

nlscout, Let's face it, we're all human. We've all made mistakes, some worse than a home run derby with the mail boxes I'll wager (at least I have). In the end the test is whether or not we learn from those mistakes. I have a feeling, based on the last post you made, that this is a lesson learned and a mistake not to be made again. The look on their faces told you their level of remorse, the shock of learning what consequences such a lapse of judgment can yield is a great reminder of why people like you and all the rest of us are doing what we're doing for the boys. Whatever you do, don't let this issue reflect to you the quality of your leadership to those boys. This was thier mistake and they need to own it outright. You're right to feel dissapointment but certainly you don't have mailbox paint on your hands.

In our district we provide the SM/ASM Specific training over 4 week nights (2.5 hrs/night) culminating in a weekend that also includes OLS. We eliminated the NLE on this coarse and made it a pre-requisite. Our are offers it at least once a month for about 4 hours on a Saturday morning. Other Districts in our council do the two Saturday approach. We have a friend on the training team that says "the mind can only absorb what the butt will endure". He's absolutely right about that. A 2.5 hour weeknight meeting a few times seems better on the attention span than the lengthy 8 hour course... Of course when I took it, I got to go to Philmont and it was more like a 6 day vacation...(nothin but smiles and grins from me). I know when we (my district training team) present a SM/ASM specific, we use the patrol method as is done in WB and present all of the materials in rapid fire order with as many different presenters as possible. I think on our last course we had as many as 15 staffers supporting the course. The course participants seem to appreciate that effort. We get a lot of good reviews about our course from the participants. It's good to keep the customers happy at any rate. The materials are usually all the same (they're supposed to be anyway), but the philosophy of the training team charged with presenting the material can absolutely have an enormous impact on the effectivness of the training. There's a lot to be said about the way things "used to be". I realize that we all need to move on and change is good, but I think we change things without thinking them through just for the sake of change. Here's one on the whole other end of the scale. This weekend my troop went rock climbing. We have one climbing instructor in the troop and borrowed 2 others from the local BSA Onbelay group. These guys took the time to get trained. To get to the point of being labeled an instructor, they trained for several years...YEARS. That's amazing given the drive through mentality you noted in your post.