kb6jra

Beavah, you thread spinner you. lol Our troop has the following guidelines. Minor behavior issues. First the youth is talked to by the PL or SPL or both. Youth leaders are to aprise the ASM Patrol Advisor of any "issue" and move on. If it continues, the youth leaders pass it to the ASM, ASM brings it to the SM. A SM confrence occurs immediately, usually with the boy, the SM and the ASM who was originally involved. Physical abuse or bulying. My troop, historically, has a good culture where it relates to bullies. We don't stand for it in any way, shape or form. If we see a potential for bullying, we stop it immediately and take the boy aside and talk. I am very up front with the parents and will discuss the issue with them at the drop of a hat. Consequently the only time we have had an issue, the parents are bullies themselves. If a boy touches another boy in anger, or with an intent to do harm, he is raked over the coals. I have a meeting with the boy, his parents and the CC and discuss the rules for expulsion from the troop and how the behavior harms the unit as well as the boy with the behavior issue. This gets thier attention and shows the SM means business. There is no second meeting, the SM recommends that the Committee expell the youth member, if it is done, the expelled youth is told he may not attend any further or future unit activities of any kind.

On my WB course upcoming, our staff will be wearing our uniforms that denote our current association with Scouting. We're asked to keep our knot collection to 3 rows maximum. Most of the staff are way beyond 9 knots total, but 3 rows seems to be the most popular cutoff point in uniforming. I had two knots when I was a CM, Eagle and the Training Award I was given after I attended a week long Philmont course in the 80's. Cub Scouts always wanted to know about that red, white and blue knot. And I was never afraid to tell them out it. IMHO knots serve several purposes. They're recognition for all of the good works we do as adult Scouters, and they show our level of commitment as a youth, too (Eagle knot, AoL knot, Religious Award). They add credibility to a trainer in short order and they convey a sense of knowledge and competency. They also spark conversation between adults or with youth. Just like all the rest of you, I look for opportunities to discuss, debate, and reminisce my years in Scouting. kahits, fyi you can still apply for the Cub Scouters awards you are entitled to. My Cub Scouter and Cub Master knots help tie me to the Cub Scouting program. When I speak at Cub Pack meetings, it helps with my credibility in that I've been in that position and understand that point of view. I have 7 knots currently, wear 6, and am working on one more, the Scoutmasters Key (my dad earned his, it's my turn).

I would have to say the "culture" of our troop is A#1, top shelf. My boys do very well in the discipline arena. We get complimented a lot on how our boys behave in public situations, it's a good feeling to hear the positive comments from complete strangers. Regarding punishment: (or consequences should we say?) The punishment must fit the crime in any event. We had an SPL who lied to his parents about his grades. On his own volition, he spelled out his punishment. At home he lost his phone, tv, extra fun privledges for a period of time. At the troop level he stepped down as SPL, appologized to the troop for not being trustworthy, and did not hold a POR for 6 months, negating any advancement opportunities. We use this standard to this day for serious offenses, it seems appropriate that it was set by a boy. (we've only had to use it once) We've also had to ask a boy to leave the troop. It goes against my instinct, but at some point as Mr. Spock said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one". For a boy who obviously needs what scouting has to offer to come to the point of being asked to leave the troop is tragic IMO, but sometimes it needs to be done, and the longer you wait to do it, the lower the morale in your unit will be before it happens. When I was a yoot, we had a smart alicky boy on an outing once, the SM got pretty tired of him, so he Punished him by making him clean out the dutch ovens from the nights cobler. If he had been instructed on how to do it right, that would have been an easy task. The SM never told him how to clean a dutch oven. The next morning, the boy came back with the oven, all shiny and sparling clean. He scrubbed so hard that he got the metal to shine like... metal. 10 years of patina down the drain... Boy was the SM upset, but it served him right because he never gave the boy instructions. Needless to say nobody was ever aloud to clean the dutch ovens again. I've not been in favor of assigning routine tasks as punishment, like kybo cleaning or dishes, that sort of thing. I have it in my head that if you negatively stigmatize those tasks, they won't get done unless you are punishing someone, or those assigned feel that they're being punished when it's their turn...that's my theory any way.

Whatever your planning sounds like fun. I hope to be there as well, I'm vying for a leadership posistion with one of our council contingents. If not, I loved being on staff last time, so that's what I'll do. See ya on the hill in 3 years. Oh ya, Bless the court of appeals (this time..ha)

On the IRS front, Boy Scout Troops are considered 501 ©(3) NFP's. Scouting is an educational entity. You can go on the website for the IRS and search for the registered 501's. All Scout Councils are listed, as are many troops. They don't give the TIN but at least they're listed. If your CO will not, can not provide a TIN you should be able to get one from your Council. Our troop has our own TIN for donation purposes. It's not that big of a deal to get it done from what I understand. I didn't have to fill out the paperwork, so my opinion on easy may be a bit skewed...lol.

Oh Wood Badge was a great joy, The teachings I will no doubt employ, I left with a mission, a hope, a new vision Of uplifting the life of a boy

My office is cluttered with Bears The desk, credenza, and chairs Its odd I admit, strange a tid bit, But other critters dont rate my devotion, I fears

Backpacking stove demo is a good idea. I'm working on developing a Megaversity course on making homemade dehydrated meals for backpacking this fall. Our troop does it every month, so for us it's a no brainer, but most other adults I've talked to have never done it and purchase the Mountain House or Richmoore brands of pre packaged food. They're better than they used to be, but for a little time in prep and a fraction of the cost, the homemade version is always better... In our district, recently we had a dutch oven demo and competition. Each troop was asked to compete in the competition, no limits as far as cuisine. Then everyone in attendance, Cub and Scout leaders, were the judges. It was a lot of fun. Open fire, one time at Philmont I took a course...anyway, we halved oranged and removed the fruit without breaking the peel. Ate the fruit and wadded up a bit of Ground beef (or turkey, whatever you want) into a ball and put it in the orange peel. Placed that on the coal directly for a time and voila, it was delicious. Cleaned off a stick from the ground, encased it in ground beef and used it to roast the meat over the fire...yummmm yum. (it's a weird one, I know) I'm sure you need to be careful about what type of wood you pick up off the ground. Used paper dixie cups, filled w/ water and boiled it...filled with Ground Beef and cooked it. Turned out great. placed them directly on the coals just like it works with the water. Again, weird but good.

Wow, you're getting an early start...maybe too early. Seems to me that most National positions were'nt announced until 18 -24 mos in advance for Professionals and 12-18 mos for volunteer chairs. I'd say closer to 12. The Pro and the Chair for my area were the same for the last two, and they mentioned before we left the hill that they'd be back in 2010. So far they seem to be still involved. Can you contact your 2005 people? They may have your answers...worth a try at any rate.

My Troop's Policy and Procedures Manual is 96 pages long...(I'll wait for the murmur to die down)... Most of it is a reprint of the BS Handbook, Fieldbook, PL/SPL handbooks, SM Handbook(s), (all proper credit given where due) cooking recipies, suggested equipment list, How-to's like; buying a sleeping bag, tent, back pack, prepare for a long hike (Philmont style trek), etc., job descriptions for youth and adult positions, minimum requirements for those positions (rank, training, previous POR tenure). Some of it, probably 8 - 10 pages worth, are further clarifications of the above refrences, as well as troop interpretation (not the best word to use, but you get the idea) of BSA policy and guildelines. Each unit, Pack, Troop, Team, and Crew have thier own culture and needs. Usually the only people that need reminding of what the rules are and what they exactly mean are the parents. If you don't spell it out for them, they will subvert your program, so it's always a good idea to get it into a written form and give them a copy when they join, encourage them to read it and ask questions. A typical parent will never check out the troops SM handbook, SPL handbook, or even the BS Handbook and read a single page. But they will question you on every decision you make while keeping in mind what those handbooks say. It's a fact of life, and human nature, unfortunately. Bit of a background for me. When I joined Cubs with my son (actually my wife volunteered me, so it's all her fault actually) they current CM and WDL handed me a 5 page document and made me sign a contract before reading it saying that I'd agree to "it". Well, "it" was "--it" all right. The Thou Shalt Not's of the pack. I hated it, and so did every one else. The second year I was asked to take over as CM. My first ceremony was to tear up the document and toss it in the trash. I got a standing ovation from the parents. When I joined this Scout Troop, I was handed this 96 page monster, and thought to my self "what did I get myself into". I fretted about it for weeks before actually opening it up and reading it. It's a how to, not a manifesto. The council uses it in trainings and demonstrations of what to do in a unit...

Well, the 18 yo and 16 yo driver thing is actually news to me, I'd be interested in knowing when it changed from 21 yo, or if it ever was only 21 yo...seems when I was a yout (Cousin Vinny speak) a few years back, we were told that you had to 21 to drive on an outing/event. Maybe our SM's were smart and just made that up to keep us from all driving our cars to a campout. Good for them, it would have been a mess. I too have a herd of drivers, my son is soon to join the ranks of the road warrior, I've had them leave early, but they usually tell me they're doing so when they arrive at the meeting. Just like employees, if they give me some fore knowledge of an event, I'll excuse them no problem, but sometimes a boy has left early, 30 - 45 minutes, and you don't know he's gone until it's closing time. That's when his patrol mates say "Johnny, he's been gone since 8:00". That'll steam your turnips. I'm keeping the driving age a secret as long as possible, like an ace in the hole.

SR540Beaver and AntelopDud, My prayers and best wishes for the both of you as well. This has been a tragedy to this poor boy and his family...and his extended Scout family, of which you two are a large part. I cannot attempt to relate to the pain this is causing you, but putting it in terms of what it would do to me makes my heart heavy. I've only got 25 boys in my troop, but they're all my sons from the day they join. I'm not unique in this and know that you two have deep rooted feelings for those in your care as well. Stay strong through this greiving process for your boys, for your adults, your families and the family of the lost scout. Bless you both in the days ahead, it may not seem like it, but they will be better.

Whose life's purpose young men would be(This message has been edited by kb6jra)

Wow, I thought this was about my son when I first saw the header...lol Some of my kids have some pretty expensive toys. PSP's are $300, IPODs are $150 and up and up, and the list goes on. One thing thats way too easy to hid is a cell phone. They are the bane of my existence at troop meetings, even among the young kids. Almost all of my boys have them and at one time or another they bring them to the meeting and I find them using them in lieu of watches, as timers, playing games on them... We went back packing a few weeks ago. We got the boys down to the parking lot after the hike and before we got the cars open, 1/2 of them were on the phone...this means they took thier phones with them...AARRGGHHH!!! I refuse to do a shakedown, I will however use my best guilt trip on them and make them understand that if they have to bring a phone on a campout, it's in the care till we get close to home and then they can call mom to come pick them up.

GWD, I wouldn't count those kids as gone yet. If the program is Webelos III like you say, they you might be seeing those kids again soon. Your best bet is to just have a solid program and tout your troop without mentioning any others. Let them sink thier own ship. When I was CM and my son was getting ready to cross over to Scouts, I sat my parents down and explained what we needed to look for. Boy Run, good finaces, experienced trained leadership, Patrol method, etc. We checked out 3 troops minimum. 1 was a Webelos III, we left as soon as we could without making a scene (very tactfully I thought), I was way toooo big (100 + boys and the sm trying to recruit me to be the next SM = scary) and the one we liked, 24+ boys, boy run, all the things that we wanted, and our kids really liked the troop, which was the biggest selling point. Ultimately the decision was the boys to make, but we knew what to look out for. Now when a Webelos den visits, we introduce the Webelos to the SPL and they're off doing thier thing with the troop. The parents get an aims and methods presentation and a troop how to, what do we do orientation. I love that part, at first the parents are weirded out that they're not in full view of thier sons. It takes them ten times longer to relax than it does the boys. God I love my 1 hour...

SR540, I will absolutely pray for this young soul and for your troop. When I was a scout, our troop had our SM and two ASM's. One of the ASM's committed suicide. It was a terrible experience to go through as a young man. His two sons were part of our troop and didn't stay around long after. I think what struck me the most was the lack of solid communication within the troop and how that generated lots of rumors among us kids. I'm sure there's no real answer to this problem, but be as open with your scouts as possible and in my opinion, it will help them get through this a bit easier. God bless your young scout and his family. kb6jra

My current troop config is 25 boys in 3 patrols (New Scouts, Regular Scouts, Venture Patrol) and an SPL and ASPL (other troop jobs are double duty for some boys) I'm Scoutmaster and have 11 ASM's SM - WB trained, overall responsibility for Program, activities and youth trainings. ASM Activities - WB Trained, 2nd to SM, assists with program and activities, assures troop attends all council / district events, oversees community service. ASM Physical Arrangements - WB Trained, 3rd to SM, Responsible for all physical arrangements in troop. Oversees all equipment needs, works with Troop Committee Outdoor chairperson & QM advisor ASM Patrol Advisors (2 per patrol)trained- advise PL and APL with the help of a TG to facilitate all patrol activities and needs. ASM trained - assists ASM Activities and Physcial Arrangements as needed. I have a troop committee of 14 active and 12 semi members. They meet monthly. My ultimate troop would be 36 youth (4 patrols of 8 and 4 leadership corps (spl, aspl, scribe, quartermaster). I've got plenty of adults, and usually they all do thier jobs. At any given meeting we have at least one adult for each youth present, sometimes more. We have the adults meet in a separate room (those not directly involved with the meetings) so they don't disrupt the kids.(This message has been edited by kb6jra)

gwd-scouter- I would submit that Scoutmasters shouldn't attend every outing. I do believe it's good for the boys, and the adults, to be experiencing other styles of management and leadership. I cannot always attend our outings because of some scheduling issues, work, anniversaries, etc. and when I joined our troop is was typical if the SM attended only a few outings a year. When I was CM years ago I was dubbed the Iron Man because I made it to every single outing, meeting, committee function, etc. It made me realize that I need to let others step up and be counted on. Use your resources and let those other adults pitch in. I also think it's great that you and your spouse tag team on this. I guess neither one of you will be complaining of becoming a scouting widow or widower, eh? Now if I could only get my wife to take an interest... Good luck

I think you pretty much have it posted. I would add, as my preferences are, that a staff diverse enough to allow that the same people aren't making presentations each month, maybe on an every three schedule. Fresh faces make more interesting evenings. One more idea that I thought was a good one, have a Q & A session at the end that has no scope, save scouting in general. This was brought up by a scoutmaster of another troop one night because he had some issues he wanted to sound off of others in the group. They incorporated that in the next RT and it's been a hit since. It's like a live BBS or forum. Nice blog by the way.

I think we're all guilty of this one thing: If at all possible we take it upon ourselves to deliver Scouting to as many youth as we can. We especially see a need to give scouting to those who in our estimation, need it the most, like your young man. I remember being the SPL of my troop as a kid. I took the job again after the troop had some issues in staying afloat. I was 17 and it was my last summer as a youth. Earlier that summer we had two new boys join the troop. One young boy (11 ish) and his older brother (14). The 14 yo was developmentally disabled and very aggressive. I was a big kid, 6'4" and about 220. This kid was 5'10" and 250 and loved to play tackle football. Capture the flag turned into tackle football. Steal the bacon turned into tackle football...you get the picture. We went to summer camp, back then it was acceptable for one adult to accompany the troop to camp. My Scoutmaster took us, but he had heart troubles that week and stayed in his cot almost the entire week. I got stuck with managing the troop. It would have been ok, except we had Mr. Tackle Football with us. He nearly ruined camp for me any everyone else because of his aggressive behavior. I finally went to my SM and demanded that he deal with the kid. He did, had a quick talk with him and explained the situation. The boy was reasonably quiet the rest of the week. We didn't see him after summer camp either. To this day I'm not sure what was said between the two, but I can only imagine... This kid needed what scouting had to offer, I think all boys do. But he was not a willing participant and shoving it down his throat wasn't the obvious answer. The troop would have imploded had he not left, I know I would have had a difficult time sticking with the last 6 months of my youth experience had he stayed. Unfortunately Spock was right "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one". Besides, if this kid is "cup checking" this little bit of sport can be construed in some circles as sexual abuse. It's happened before. Good luck

I'm glad he's alright and I'm glad he put some of his training to good use. I'd like to chime in on the buddy system issue and the YPT issue as well. Buddy system. Where was this boys buddy. In camp, out of camp, taking a leak on a bush...you need a buddy. This would have possibly been avoided if the "buddy" was with this kid reminding him that he's getting too far away from camp. Youth Protection. This is way out of line. a boy want's to sleep in, so 1 adult stays behind with him and the whole rest of the troop takes a hike? Then the boy strays away from camp afterwards, seems a bit fishy to me. NEVER put yourself in that position. This has lawsuit written all over it. Regardless if the facts are that the adult was not abusive of the child, there was nothing but opportunity, and that's a huge mistake. It's a mistake on the part of the adult that stayed behind solo, and it's a mistake for those other adults that let him. I don't care if this adult is the equivalen to Mother Theresa, We Never put ourselves in this position. This really frustrated me when I read it. I hope for the sake of this unit and these people it's just a case of ommitted facts in the papers.

OGE brought up an interesting point about Gerald Ford and Bill Bradley. And my answer was iterated by Venividi, boys that are focused and determined will ultimately make time for and exert an effort in the activities they're involved in. I was a High School football player while I earned my Eagle. I was a busy busy person. I attended almost every troop meeting, I missed a couple during the holidays because my family had a seasonal business and I was expected to participate. I attended all but 2 of my troop outings typically in a year. I attended Summer camp each and every year. I was class president and on the speach and debate team. I was many things, but I understood early on that whatever I was involved with I must give it my attention in order to be successful. I earned Eagle because I wanted to and did what it took to get it done. I made arrangements with my football coach to miss some practices in order to serve my troop. He understood that and respected my request. I still gave 100% for the team and 100% for the troop. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here but just saying that when we lay out expectations ahead of time, the youth generally do rise to the occasion. In my unit we've had a couple last minute kids that couldn't seem to give enough time to the unit. Those kids got a good lecture on commitment and involvement and how they had to give back. Then they were given the expectation that they were to provide some service to the unit post 18 years. For the most part the youth in our unit take thier involvement seriously. I'm with 2Eagle as well. I'm selfish. I want to say "If you don't come to the meetings, you don't go on the outings, if you don't go on the outings, you don't earn the rank" but I can't. It's not possible or probable. I understand about there being other activities, I just wish that the Band teacher and the Swimming Coach understood that very same thing sometimes.

I was a last minute Eagle. "Deathbed" isn't an endearing term, but I don't find it terribly offensive honestly. I should have gotten off my kiester much earlier in the game to be sure. The procrastination was all my doing and I'm worthy of any blame there. I don't hold to the notion that since a kids got way too many irons in the fire that they are not accountable to follow the rules. If a young man has way too much going on to be active in the unit, he's not active in the unit. Period. Mitigating Circumstances? Sure, there are always reasons, usually good ones. Actual appropriate reasons for not attending meetings or outings? I'd say there are very few. From my experience, and I've had a bit of it recently, denying a boy the opportunity to become an Eagle based on his most recent 6 months of attendance is a tough call. I certainly couldn't make it. A boy in my troop earned his Eagle finally. He screwed around with his project so badly that he was on his third pick of projects before one stuck. The first two took so long for him to plan and put into words on the workbook, that the organizations who were to benefit just did them for themselves because they got tired of waiting. He took an entire year to figure out his project. That's all he did, figured it out, then it took another 6 months to finish it. That wore me out. He finished his requirements and turned in his application 3 weeks before his 18th birthday. He wasn't terribly active before this, showing up intermittently to get help on the project. I make him promise me to give the troop 6 good months after he turned 18. He did and he's still attending, when a college course doesn't get in the way. "Its my understanding that no one is allowed to add or take away from the requirements listed in the Handbook. It does not matter if we do not like the current requirements; its a matter of principle. Becoming an eagle in one unit should not be any harder or easier than becoming one in another unit. Can this troop continue doing this or does your District just ignore them?" The troop cannot add more requirements, like OGE stated correctly. It does look however to be an interpretation of the requirement for being active in your troop or patrol for 6 months after the last rank.

IMHO YPT should be re-taken every two or three years. My current council requires it be taken once and only once. My previous council gave it 3 years. I nag my parents into letting me offer it every two to the boys and adults. I do the adult training first then the boys, so when the boys have questions at home, mom and or dad know the rules and have some idea of the content. The training listed on the Tour Permit shows your due dillegence in getting trained before taking young kids out camping, it also proves the due dillegence of the council by requireing that training before setting you loose on the big 'ol world. However, if someone lists a member of the pack as the trip leader and as having completed Baloo... and they haven't, the owness is on you. I believe ScoutNut is correct, once it's issued, it's issued unless the council specifically revokes it PRIOR to the event. Doing so afterwards would have no effect. The BSA insurace is secondary to personal health insurance at any rate and usually doesn't get hit, only in extreme situations.

Talk to the ADC for her, or the DC...let them know that you do not wan't this person as your UC. They must respect this request. You do not have to get into specifics, and you probably shouldn't just to protect yourself. A simple request that she not be your UC should be sufficient. There is a strong possibility that this woman actually requested your unit to serve. That is not uncommon. The ADC and DC should know that she was at one time involved with your unit and that you don't see eye to eye and she shouldn't be allowed back to the scene of the crime. ) UC's should be 3rd party observers. I read on this forum somewhere that in thier council, it's not uncommon for UC's to be recruited out of district to further remove them from the units leadership.