Kamelian

I have no interest in being involved in pack activities, except to ensure that (a) the program is being run effectively, fairly, and with the boys' future best interests at heart, and (b) the Cub Scouts and their families know they are able to go out and select a troop that best fits each boy and makes him feel most comfortable and accepted. It rubs me the wrong way when I hear about kids who are being TOLD to go to THAT TROOP, who are discouraged from visiting or joining other troops because their DL has other plans for them, and who are treated like some kind of unwanted rubbish by one or two DLs for the sin of wanting to be in a unit where they aren't just another face in the crowd. The "Pet Troop" in this instance is known as an Eagle factory, and has established a recognized long-term reputation for telling its members that if they don't make Eagle by age 14, they'll be kicked out of the troop. It's the most unfair, undemocratic, completely juvenile attitude I've ever heard of amongst adults, and I don't believe our IH would stand for what's going on if she knew all the details and particulars of what's involved in the whole picture. For those who think I'm in this situation for control and glory - you're dead wrong. I couldn't care less about the control issue, and glory is the last thing I'm looking for. I did the pack routine from 1992 until 1997 with my son, and I did it for my son's sake, NOT because I derived much personal satisfaction from it. I was under a lot of pressure in my personal life. Doing scouting with my son was (at first) a big chore, until I learned to appreciate the finer aspects of camping, associating with people of similar interests, and started to relax enough to get a kick out of watching the kids do their thing. I was a single parent, and my ex was under serious scrutiny for having molested my daughter - he was not permitted to have unsupervised visitation with either of the kids for over 10 years following the divorce. My mother passed away at the end of 1991, shortly before my divorce was final, but I still had my dad to contend with. He was in a nursing home, so I had to take on the management of all of his farming and business affairs. I had a substitute teaching certificate that I hated using because I got brain-freeze every time I had to be around large numbers of small children, but I enjoyed helping in the grade-school library and watching tables during the book fairs. Planning and paperwork for the pack was a cinch, but the worry over having to be at the weekly hour-long den and pack meetings were enough to give me migraines and cause me to lose sleep. It was a major thing for me to be able to go to the meetings every week and help the adults help their kids make their way through the various advancement activities so they could have fun & get their pins & patches. The first two packs my son and I were with folded. Pack #1 folded 5 or 6 months after we joined, and we didn't find out about its failure until I tried to find out the following spring where to pay our annual dues for the current year. I was so new to scouting that I was completely unaware that there should have been monthly pack meetings and weekly den meetings - and there was none of that going on. That was the year my son was a Tiger cub. We didn't even get our membership cards from the pack after we paid our dues when we signed up, and my son never got his Tiger certificate. Pack #2 was the pack we joined in the town where we lived at that time - I didn't know about its existence until after Pack #1 folded because my kids had been in school in the other little town where my dad was living in the nursing home, not in the town where we lived. Pack #2 was also in a different council. Pack #2 had been limping along for about 3 or 4 years by the time we joined, trying to gather steam and attract new members, and we all hoped it would take hold and get more kids, but it didn't. It wasn't for a lack of trying to make it work. My son also wasn't keeping up with the Wolf program material as well as I thought he should, and since he was the only Wolf cub that year, I held him over in Wolf for a total of about 16 months until his maturity level caught up with his ability to do the handbook activities. About the time we started my son in Bear Cubs, it came time to re-charter. There were just 3 kids and 3 adults left, including the CM, and the CM was having serious health problems and had to quit, so Pack #2 folded. We didn't have enough youth OR adult bodies to warrant rechartering. My son & I then went to Pack #3. It was in the same BS council as Pack #2, but located in another town. My son excelled as a Bear cub and we fully expected to stay with that pack and then proceed on into its brother troop - but the council executive approached me in late summer 1995, personally, and asked me to help the Methodist pastor in the town where Pack #2 had been located, because the pastor wanted to charter a new pack. There would be 12 to 15 new boys, and meanwhile, I was asking 'where the heck were they when we needed them a year ago?' My name was needed on the new charter as COR, DL, & WL in order to have enough adult spots filled on the roster to get the thing off the ground, so we consented to help form Pack #4. My son did well in Pack #4 Webelos, made AOL, and then in Fall 1997 I was again approached by the IH and the CE about setting up a new charter... this time for a troop, same CO. Again, my son and I were on the original charter - I was still listed as COR. By the time we graduated from Pack #4 about Sept 1997, our CM had taken a night job and quit his pack position almost 22 months earlier. I filled in for him while helping the IH find someone else... which never happened... and I wound up as acting CM for almost 2 years. We also lost the CC when he took a third job a year earlier, and by the time the troop was started, the pack had only 4 adult pack members trying to run the whole show. Fortunately the pack survived - new families came in and filled the necessary empty spots - but after all the pack failures I had experienced, I was left with a very bad feeling about dysfunctional units. Moving on... Although I had been exposed to troop activity when my adopted brother was in scouting, my first actual hands-on experience with Boy Scouts was in what I'll call Troop-A. I was still listed as COR for the CO that had Pack #4, and was also carried as an ASM and did newsletters each month to keep the CO and everyone's families informed. We lasted in that troop for about 7 or 8 months, before I finally got fed up with bull-pucky and witnessing the SM and his ASM buddies acting like backwoods hicks. They refused to get leader training, habitually brought beer, wine coolers, & cigars to campouts, drank & smoked in front of the kids, and generally acted like the Rules of Scouting didn't apply to them. The SM's son was kicked out of summer camp on the first day, in June 1998, for having no Class B physical signed by a physician - despite my telling the entire troop from October through May, weekly, and making it a headline on the front of all the monthly newsletters, that the physical was required for camp. The kid's doc wouldn't give him an emergency sign-off because the doc hadn't even seen the kid in over 5 years and refused to take responsibility in case the kid had some serious problem come up. For me, that was the last straw. I was preparing to move anyway, from a rental property that needed to be condemned because the foundation was caving in, to a house I was buying in the next town, so we joined the troop we had spent summer camp with. And that brings us to what I'll call Troop-B. I joined Troop-B with my son shortly after summer camp ended in 1998. I had been through all the cub level training that had been offered in our area between Summer 1993 and early Winter 1997. By the time I gave Troop-B my application in late August 1998, I had done local training for Intro to District Commissioner Service, BS Fast Start (4 times), BS Leader Specific (twice), BS leader outdoor training (once) in a local classroom setting, a 1998 Bachelors course in College of Commissioner Science in HOAC, and went to Philmont for BS Basic Camping Skills. In 1999, I took the Masters' course in College of Commissioner Science in Quivira, Scoutmastership Fundamentals, SM Specific again, a week-long Woodbadge course in Osage Trails, and went back to Philmont for BS Advancements. I also provided transportation & leadership for troop outings. In 2000 I took the 1st-year Doctorate preparedness class for College of Commissioner Service in Quivira, returned to Philmont for BS Roundtables, and went on all the troop outings to provide transportation & give back-up leadership presence. I also remarried. In 2001, I assumed the position of committee member in the troop and tried to assist wherever I could in the positive functions of the troop. In 2002, I took the Doctorate of College of Commissioner Science in HOAC. In 2003 I received a Boy Scout Leader's Training award, the first I had attained since I was awarded Cub Scouter, Den Leader, Webelos Leader & Cubmaster awards. I became the committee's Advancement Chair and held the position for over 2 years. In 2004, my husband, son & I had to prepare to move from my husband's family farm to another location when the State of Kansas took our farm from us through imminent domain for a highway project. That wasn't completed until late 2005. In 2005 I returned to HOAC for Continuing Education in College of Commissioner Science. At the end of 2006, I went on hiatus until November 2010 when I was asked to return to the troop. From 1998 through 2006 I attended PowWows, University of Scouting events, and almost every training session I could afford the time to go to, and went on practically every campout and summer camp and other activity the troop went on from summer 1998 through the end of 2006. I was also a commissioner for summer camp, a commissioner for the 1998 and the 2003 Quivira Council Encampments, a merit badge counselor, and filled other functions as requested by the troop and the council. Frankly, guys - I don't need any glory, and I certainly don't want control. I want to see the doggoned pack work the way it's supposed to, and if that means hanging some pompous, self-centered idiot out to dry for using our CO's pack as his personal chick incubator for a particular troop's henhouse, then so be it. I have checked with a number of people who've been in scouting much longer than I have, whose opinions I trust, and not one of them believes I have any ulterior motives in this. It ticks me off no end when someone comes along and makes comments that start with "OH MY YOU CAN'T DO THAT" and end up with "I'LL BET YOU WANT TO CONTROL EVERYTHING." I don't want to stir the pot any more than is absolutely necessary... I just want to see the stupid pack operate the way it's supposed to, without the idiot factor involved with DLs who think the troop they are promoting is the only one worth anyone's consideration. "IF" I am asked to become COR, and "IF" our DE says it's not a conflict of interest or an assumption of too much control (for a CC to take on the additional role), then I'll say yes, and set about helping my friend, in her function as IH, to find someone who has scouting knowledge and a sense of personal commitment to the program to take my place in that function at some future date. And, if stirring the pack's pot becomes necessary, in order to stir the bad influences into a place where they are less damaging, then I guess I'll have to do that, too. I just wanted to know if there is any hard-and-fast rule in BSA policy against someone taking both titles of responsibility.

We aren't so unrealistic that we expect all the CO's pack members to join us automatically. That doesn't happen except on rare occasions, unless there's only one troop in town. We aren't demanding to have all the cubbies join us from that pack... we simply expect the simple courtesy to be extended of having the pack leaders promote ALL THE TROOPS in town equally, without showing favoritism. We also expect to NOT BE IGNORED, and to have the opportunity, when we send out an invitation for them to join us, to see the cubbies from time to time at our activities. It doesn't matter a whit to us which troop THE BOYS and their respective families elect to join ultimately, so long as it's truly THEIR choice, but we do have a problem when we begin to hear that the boys are being told to join one particular troop by the leaders, and also hear that the boys who choose other troops are being neglected or rejected in terms of quality pack attention. Every kid has the right to shop around and find the troop he feels most comfortable with, where he believes he'll fit in the best. This pack's WLs are subverting that right. I liked the proposal (from a few suggestions back) for the IH to consider installing a couple of the troop's ASMs on the pack committee, and possibly also replacing the pack CC and one or more of the Webelos den leaders with other people. From what I have heard this week of the pack, many of the committee members have no clue about how the pack should be run - and they have acknowledged they are being run over and intimidated by the DLs & WLs who are so intent on railroading the boys into their pet troop. I've also recently heard that the whole focus on pushing "The Chosen Troop" over all the other troops in town is the work of just 1 or 2 very influential individuals who have assumed the attitude that it's either their way or the highway. These guys apparently intimidate or badger everybody associated with the pack - the adult leaders, cubbies, and the family members. SM and I have decided to approach the IH sometime over the next few days. I've known the IH personally for about 15 years. We need to let her know about the pack problems we perceive, to see what her opinions are, and to see what she's willing to do about it. She also needs to know in detail about the problems we have run into with getting the COR to meet with us when he's needed for paperwork and so on. I suggested to SM that we ask her if she knows anyone who has a good handle on scouting programs through past experience, who would be a better alternative for the position than the current guy has been. I have one other question... if the IH suggests it as a possible solution over the short term, to resolve a COR problem, can a CC also be appointed to double as COR in a troop where there are presently low adult numbers on the roster?

John/KC: Yes, I'm CC. 2-cub-dad: we are ih process of evaluating our BS program to see what its past flaw are, trying to rectify them, but having such hostility and disinterest from the people in the CS pack who are under the same CO has been a little hard to deal with. A major boost in the right direction was the elimination of 2 adults and 2 kids who attended so infrequently that no-one amongst the active members knew who they were. One of those 2 adults was a trouble-maker in the unit, so getting him gone will be a big plus. Eagle92: All we expect, and all we ask for, is the opportunity to meet these kids & their parents and for the boys in that pack to be given the encouragement to go visit other troops (and for the particular pack leaders to keep their traps shut about pushing the kids en-masse toward one specific unit). Invitations we've sent them have been ignored and/or we've gotten no response. Virtually all the other troops in town have said pretty much the same thing: they get Cubby kids visiting their troops from all the packs in town - except from the one charted through our CO - and everybody keeps hearing about how all the kids from this pack (that's the brother unit under our CO) are being told to go to the Chosen Troop.

CO is a church... The pack doesn't attend meetings in the CO church building, doesn't attend CO church services, and doesn't involve themselves in the church or troop activities in anything else. There have been problems in the past with getting the CO to put troop info in the church newsletters or on the Sunday bulletins - and pack info never appears anywhere. Information we've put on the church's bulletin boards in the past has disappeared. The pack meets at a school across the street, allegedly because they have a larger gymnasium and closer proximity to the playground (50 yards from the church). The pack and troop (I'm told) have always chartered separately, and the pack leaders take care of their part without bothering to find out whether the troop is still active. When I first joined the troop around 1997 or 1998, I was unaware the CO maintained a charter for a pack until sometime after 2001. In the fall of 2002, we actually did get 1 or 2 boys to come visit us from the pack, but we never saw any of the cubs until then. Their parents told our leaders they had already decided which troop they were going to go to - they didn't want to alienate the pack leaders over it - and said they were only visiting our troop because we had something planned that looked a lot more interesting than the other troop. The school seems to be contributing to part of the problem, too. Because of legal problems over various issues, the local school district began a policy - city wide, not just this one school - a few years back: They don't permit people to enter on their property unless they have prior approval from the school board. This includes efforts by the council and local troops, for troop or pack recruitment purposes, and for attending the meetings of any group already permitted to meet on school property if the visitor isn't an actual registered member of the group. So as registered members on the charter, the COR could attend, or the IH, but nobody in the troop is permitted.

Old COR was worse than worthless - but he's been gone 2 or 3 years, thank Goodness. The present COR is the type who is never around - he won't return phone messages or make himself available to sign forms when needed. We spent over 3 weeks trying to track him down to sign the recharter papers, and some new member applications. We've been having to go to the IH for signatures, and she or her assistant have been very good about helping - but the IH is out on surgical leave at the moment. I forgot to say earlier that certain pack leaders under our CO have been responsible for passing propaganda to the effect that "no other troop in town is as good as" the Chosen Troop. The boys & their families are apparently being informed by these leaders that the Chosen Troop is a major stepping stone to the boys' future success in the world, and the other troops in town are nothing but poor imitators. One pack leader with a lot of local political clout has apparently been very vocal about this, and has been a major force in the push to send Cubs to this other unit. By "further attention" I mean that we (in the troop) have been given the distinct impressiion, by some of the Cub boys and their families, that the Cubs who do not show an excited interest in going to the Chosen Troop pre-selected by the pack leaders, they do get their awards & such that they've earned, but they don't get praised for them or fawned over or receive the kind of overt attention the other boys receive who have indicated their willingness to go to the Chosen Troop. In some cases, they are treated as if they are materially and personally less important than those who go along with selecting the Chosen Troop. Our troop has sent out invitations to this pack for camping outings, lock-ins for movies & games, afternoons at the bowling alley or skating rink, and other stuff, and it's been sent to the leaders of this pack, but parents we've talked to say they never heard anything about it. The information apparently isn't getting to the boys and their parents. We've also had difficulty getting information about their meetings and special activities, or responses with regard to assigning Den Chief scouts.

What does one do when the CO's Pack leaders won't encourage or permit the boys in the Pack to visit or camp with the boys in the CO's Troop, and also actively discourage them from considering any other troop in town? The CO's pack leaders are Troop Snobs who have spent the last 5 ot 6 years actively discouraging the Webelos from considering any troop in town other than the troop the leaders want the kids to go to. Part of the problem is that many of the leaders involved this pack are graduates of the troop which they have already pre-selected for the boys to move into, and this happens to be the troop generally recognized by everyone in town to be an 'eagle factory' which pushes the boys to make Eagle by the time they turn 14 (or else they face the real possibility of being dropped from the unit). I've found that boys who are pushed to make Eagle by 14 have both an advantage and a disadvantage. The advantage is that, yeah, they get it done before they get distracted by girls & cars. The disadvantage is that they don't fully absorb the value and meaning of the program, the Oath, and the Law in the process of being hustled through at top speed, unless they are the ones who are doing the hustling of their own accord. Our troop leaders have been informed in the past, by some concerned parents, that boys who have had the nerve to indicate they wish to go elsewhere, into a different troop, are treated as if they're idiots, and therefore are unworthy of any further attention in the pack. Apparently, the only acceptable alternative in these leaders' eyes is for the boy to quit scouting altogether.

I, too, would like to see a return to the smaller size handbooks. I also very much like the abbreviated merit badge information that was included in the back pages for handy reference (eliminating the need for carrying around 10 extra m.b. booklets), and the small book ads describing related BSA publications that indicated additional available information was available in the scout shops. I'm speaking of handbooks like the 4th & 5th editions that came out for use in the 30's through early 50's. They would take up a lot less space and be much easier for the boys to handle and stash in a pocket or backpack. The newer water resistant materials that now being used in bindings and covers would make this size format absolutely ideal for the kids. If BSA went back to that size, a larger format version could also be produced and made available for the leader contingent that would be more of a table model - a bit more older-adult-user friendly, and produced for some of the gray foxes who might need a book with slightly larger print. Frankly, I must also admit that I have always enjoyed looking at the advertising that was interspersed through the index pages for things that would appeal to boys of scout age. The ads were similar to wish-book ads in the old Sears catalogs, showing the item and pricing, but without the hard sell associtiated with today's advertising trends. I have always preferred looking at the older handbooks, even after the newer ones without advertising came out. The ads were for useful items related to scout activities, like first aid kits, dress & outdoor footwear & outer wear, skis, fishing gear, bicycles & tires, camp axes & knives, B-B guns, small inexpensive boat motors, brass band instruments, food mixes, and other such items. If the older customized style of line-drawn, monochromiatic (or even full color) advertising were still authorized and included today in the handbooks, it would help immensely in lowering the cost of BSA scout uniform articles, handbooks, and other items used in the scouting program. The BSA must have made a veritable fortune from US Rubber Co. for giving them the exclusive rights to have advertising space on the back covers of all the handbooks. The elimination of the advertising and the merit badge requirements from the handbooks seems to have occurred about the time the 6th edition handbooks came out. It definately coincides with the period when BSA started increasing their pricing of scouting-related merchandise. Hey, don'tcha know, advertising companies that sell bicycles, single-shot .22 rifles, archery gear, camp knives, and first aid kits, and stores such as Bass Pro, Cabella, and REI where one can see a variety of brands & styles of camping & fishing gear, outdoor wear, and related items, could show what they have that is appropriate to the 12 to 18 age range and might appeal to young Boy Scout campers and hikers. It would be good competition for the Scout Stuff catalog camping gear. The Scout Stuff catalog could then be downsized to show just the BSA-logo merchandise such as uniforms & insignia, the Eagle gift set items, the Pinewood Derby & other things specific to the operation of the scouting programs. The income from such advertising would be staggering in today's markets, providing BSA with much-needed operating money for their programs and publishing costs. If ads were once again allowed or included in the handbook publications, that might lead to a really significant reduction in the sales prices of uniform items and handbooks, which would serve to attract the interest and attention of lower-income families who just don't do scouting with their boys because it costs too darn much to buy the uniforms so they can participate in the programs. And, while we're on the subject of returning to the older, possibly better, books of a smaller size format, I wish we could all put the full-court press on BSA and insist upon a return to the policy of selling only American-made products for the American Boy Scouts, such as uniform items, insignia, handbooks, etc. I would rather pay a little more at the scout shop for an American-made shirt or pair of trousers or other item with a BSA logo on it, and know that the job of a fellow American citizen was secure, than to own anything that was made overseas priced at the same or less sales value while knowing that some American's job was sacrificed by sending his work overseas.

heh heh... (blushes deep red & shuffles a toe around in the dust)... Well... ahem... It appears that, among my books on scouting, I have copies of the many of the BSA editions on my office shelf. I'm still on the lookout for the 7th edition handbook, and the notorious much-panned 8th edition handbook, which I would happily adopt as my own if I could find them lurking about somewhere, and I'd also like to find a copy of the book for the extinct Poultry Merit Badge (coz I like chickens). In the early to mid 1990's when my son became involved in the BSA program, I started buying Scout-related items here and there, for reference use, when I saw them offered for sale. I also have a copy of a large "Camping & Wilderness Survival" manual, that was sold in our local scout shop about a decade ago, a couple of the original 1912 Maitland books, and a few Girl Scout handbooks (most of which date from 1986 through 1995). However, I found a very old GSA 1930 edition handbook that I purchased at an auction about 12 years back. Aside from the section instructing girls on how to set a table properly, some other stuff on housekeeping skills, and with differences in the merit badges offered, it turned out to be closer to the Boy Scouting program of the 1950's and 1960's than anything that's being portrayed in the more modern BSA handbooks today. And, of course, the Girl Scout program of today is so watered down from what it used to be that I am continue to be amazed they're still able to attract girls with any degree of intelligence at all. Juliet Low would roll over in her coffin if she had any idea what her programs have become. Around here, GSA books apparently aren't nearly as popular or sought after as BSA books tend to be. I'm still looking for the 7th & 8th edition handbooks, and a merit badge book on raising poultry to go with the one I found a few years ago on raising rabbits. I love putting information together into a useable researchable format. Along with genealogy, it's probably one of the things I seem able to do best. I've typed event format for two camporee brochures, complete with the equipment lists, the reference resources, the cold-weather camping tips, and the signup sheets to go along with each one. Here's the thing --- When I worked in the Scout Shop of our local council, there used to be pocket-sized cards available for individual boys or their parents (who were interested in tracking the progress through the ranks) that could be tucked into the pocket of a backpack and carried along to outside activities. I think they cost 50 cents to a dollar apiece - priced at a kid's allowance level. Some of them folded out to show about 4 sections printed front & back. Whatever happened to those? I wish BSA - or some person or group sanctioned by BSA - would come along and produce the "Explanatory Explanation Material" that encompasses the historic information from the handbooks and related publications through the years, bringing forward the small details which all leaders everywhere would apparently die & go to heaven for if they knew it actually existed. DKurtenbach has the right idea. I'm not certain such a thing would work real well for PDA & IPod applications, since not all of us are techno-literate the way Speedy's DAD appears to be, but this is definately an idea that needs more work to make it a reality - at least on the district or council levels.

Yeh - I agree maybe it should have been under the issues & politics, but I didn't realize there was such a forum. Sorry. Overseas manufacturing isn't a problem in and of itself - it's the lack of any tariffs on incoming merchandise from other countries that creates a major problem for American workers. If the incoming merchandise was taxed the way it ought to be, with a tariff on all foreign-made stuff, there wouldn't be so many American companies taking their jobs overseas. Tariffs wree supposed to protect American jobs by causing foreign-made items from undercutting the price of products made in the US. I have no idea when we quit putting tariffs on foreign-made things, but it seems like it began when the Japanese cars and electronics started coming into broader demand. On a slightly different subject, I believe the credit scoring system is a way for banking-type companies to browbeat and intimidate the general public, and to punish them economically in some way. My husband agrees, and is of the opinion that the credit score system is the principal cuplrit behind the breaking of the American financial status of the normal citizen. Again, it comes down to the banks & banking executives (and Wall Street) trying to figure out novel ways to run up account expenses so they can increase their consumer fraud and theft to include things like late fees, overlimit fees, pay-by-phone fees, etc. Husband refers to these guys as the men who sit around swimming pools by their big fancy mansions sucking on their big brown... er... cigar/s (husband has a different word, starts with "d" & ends with "k"). When I was a kid, as the nationalized credit cards started appearing in mailboxes during the 1960's, my dad said virtually the same thing. He wasn't what one would call a well-educated man, but he was pretty savvy. He'd be 100 years old if he were still with us. Dad believed in local credit lines carried with home-town stores, but he claimed the kinds of plastic credit cards that were being made available after about 1964, to anyone who wanted to sign up, would bring about the collapse of the US economy at some future point, probably in about 40 to 50 years he said. He told me not to ever use them unless I absolutely had to, and then no more than absolutely necessary, claiming that "most people", especially those who don't understand the basics of economics and the repercussions of over-spending, would over-use such cards and run themselves into bankruptcy very quickly. Dad also said he felt the unions were the worst thing going for the US economy (and the biggest mistake the US Gov't. ever allowed) because unions tend to keep incompetent workers employed at exorbitant rates of income & benefit packages (through tenure and seniority) while keeping qualified workers out of the work place because they don't happen to be union members and because there isn't any place for them while the incompetents are there. I know of at least two teachers who should have gotten their walking papers years ago, because they're an embarassment to the schools and a liability in the classroom, and they're still teaching because the NEA won't let the school board get rid of them. So, we believe the credit score system may be the underlying cause of much of the banking & mortgage fiasco nonsense going on today (and we think the unions are nearly as bad). The entire country would be better off if credit scores were banned entirely and banks & loan companies had to return to the practice of judging people by a thorough review of their income and asset structure and their spending habits before granting them loans, the way it was before 1970. And on yet another topic, I heard a suggestion from a comic the other night that sounds almost plausible - turn the immigration issue into a reality show. Vote IN the people who work hard and want to stay here (even though they may be here illegally), and vote OUT folks who contribute nothing to the system (like the Octo-Mom, the gal who had 6 kids she couldn't support and then had octuplets and thought she was special). Thanks to everyone - this thread has been as entertaining as it's been informative. Later guys/gals.

I was EXTREMELY disappointed when I recently went to the council Scout Shop. I found that none of the clothing items in the Scout Shop were being Made In America. The shirt I wound up with was some shoddy garment that was produced in China according to the tag. After the first laundering, I had to take apart some bad seams and re-sew an entire section on the stupid thing. That entailed finding thread the right color and matching up the stitch length so the repair would look the same as the rest of the garment. Because I had already sewn all my insignia to it by hand before it was laundered the first time, I wasn't about to return the stupid thing to the scout shop - which, incidentally, is 50+ miles from where I live - since I knew I would probably get the run-around from someone wanting to defend the idea that it's OK to sell substandard merchandise that was made outside the USA. Now that the shirt has been laundered again, and I've worn it a couple of times, I now find the quality of the fabric is also going to be a problem. It's scratchy & uncomfortable to wear without a shirt underneath it, so now I am thoroughly steamed. Where are all our good old USA-made all-cotton products? People, I listen nearly every day to the unemployment numbers and the news, so even if nobody will admit it I know how bad our economic situation is in the US. I have friends who are unemployed or under-employed and cannot find sufficient work to support their basic needs and feed & clothe their children properly. One friend has a daughter who recently graduated from college with a good degree and fabulous grades - and when she went to apply for a job in her chosen field, she found over 900 other applicants applying for the same job opening. In our town, we have a new industry where big generators are to be built. When the opportunity came up to have Siemens locate here, the city operated on the belief that it would offer our local residents a new source for employment opportunity, but when the plant finally opened, nearly all the new hires were people from a town about 50 miles away, and most of them commute. It did almost nothing for the our local jobs market. One of our rental tenants has been unemployed for more than a year and her unemployment compensation insurance has run out. Unless things change so that she's successful in filing a claim and getting paid, her out-of-work status probably won't be included in the national or state unemployment numbers. She still sends in her weekly unemployment claim forms, religiously, but hasn't received a check in nearly a year. Her residential companion was unemployed for several months. After being re-hired, by the same company he worked for when laid off, he was brought back as part-time rather than the full-time status he had before. He's been under-employed for nearly a year since then, and has lost all his benefits. These two people have a lot of trouble meeting their basic expenses. Our national debt is up to around $49,000 for every American citizen, regardless of age or ability to work. The strange thing is, only $900 billion of the nearly $14 trillion national debt the government claims we "owe" is related to an actual debt to some other country - China - and the rest of it is pure Blue Sky related to the irresponsible and ill-advised printing by the Fed of a lot of value-less money that was used for the bail-out TARP plans (AIG, GM, etc.) and all the other foolishness the current administration has supported. Then, after a few years of upstart & predatory companies offering mortgage loans based on stated income, with no proof of that income or property or other assets to back up the claim of stated income, and on the basis of unsupported over-inflated appraisals, now the mortgage market is a shambles and ready to collapse. Given these problems, how in the world can BSA justify offering through its shops and catalogs the poorly made clothing and other shoddy merchandise I've seen, nearly all of which appears to have been made outside the USA? In this bad economy, with so many Americans out of work, why are we NOT finding ways to conserve American jobs IN THE USA and help keep our American companies from going out of business. To do otherwise is, at the very least - dare I say it??? - thoroughly UNAMERICAN. I think the BSA - being an organization which says it promotes American values - has a responsibility to its American membership to offer American-made products. Because of this responsibility, BSA ought to be doing its fair share toward helping to preserve the jobs & companies IN AMERICA where Americans can be gainfully employed, so that when our youth members grow up and try to have a productive future, they can count on having a future that doesn't involve being dependent on other countries for shoddy poorly-made goods and inadequate services. I want to be able to buy uniform items, insignia, and other BSA products that are Made In America. I'm fairly certain - in fact I'm almost positive - that I'm not the only one in this country who's interested in seeing American vendors & merchants go back to selling American-made products. I hereby refuse to purchase any more "Made in Asia" or "Made in Mexico" Boy Scout camping, uniform items, or literature. I want to BUY AMERICAN. If I have to resort to buying some off-brand of clothing that's American made, in the correct color, and use it to take the place of a BSA brand that's not American made, I'll do it. What is BSA going to do to satisfy the demand for American-made products? OK everyone - I'm done venting. Many thanks to all for allowing me blow off steam.

From Brent - I did catch the ornamental reindeer on the front lawn in a very compromising position. Get a room! Hey - that's nothing - we catch the real deer on the front lawn in very compromising positions. Happy Solstice & happy new year to everyone.

Don't forget about the Alaskan Gold Rush and how it played a major part in getting the state explored & settled. Wyatt Earp and his later wife, Josie, were known to have been involved with mining and gold speculation in that area for quite a few years after the Tombstone AZ incidents, before they retired to California. We have a Klondike style winter camporee activity in our local district, but we don't always have snow on the weekend when it's usually held - some years it gets colder than a well-digger's toes, but we don't get snow most of the time We have a rotating schedule of about 15 to 20 event activities, choosing about 10 to 12 each year and using a few of them every single year. We select stuff for the younger boys & girls (Webelos, Scouts & Girl Scouts from 9 through 15), and stuff for the older kids who've been at more than 2 or 3 of the events. Kids of any age, and particularly the younger ones, always enjoy a zip line, monkey bridge, on-the-spot fire building to either make a signal fire (to burn through a string so many inches above the wood) or to cook a simple food item (egg, pancake, etc.). We've had hatchet throwing, black powder (older kids), target shooting with arrows (older kids). The older kids who've been in more than 3 or 4 events & have many of their outdoor skills badges might show their first aid & rescue skills for such outdoor accidents as axe injuries, bear attacks, ravine rescues --- and even tracking. The guys who've been there & done it all (like, over 16 & attended more than 5 events) can help with managing the locations where the activities take place. Once in a while we have a "ravine" (an area marked "RAVINE" that's about 8 or 10 feet wide & about 20 feet long, cordoned off with yellow tape). There's a rope strung about 6 or 7 feet off the ground between two sturdy trees on either side of the "ravine", and the patrol has to figure out how to get all their guys and all their equipment across from one side of the marked area to the other side without touching the ground inside the taped-off area, or dropping anything or anybody into it. Sometimes the camp committee does a "sled dog pull" (patrol leader is on the sled, patrol members are the "dogs"), and if there's no snow, we change it up a little. Sometimes we have a blindfold operation where the "dogs" are blindfolded & holding the sled ropes, and the PL on the sled has to talk everyone through a maze using verbal instructions & directions. Each activity is judged with points (up to 5), and the points for this activity are based on enthusiasm & scout spirit, leadership & quality of instructions, ability of the patrol to pay attention & successfully follow the instructions with the least amount of trouble, lowest number of mistakes or tip-overs, and speed getting through the course. After stopping for activities in about 12 or so areas, once every one of the patrol teams has completed the course, the team with the most points at the end of the day wins. Prizes for the camporee can be any kind of replica gold rush tool with a custom logo or painted event information on it. Date & camporee name, 1st, 2nd, 3rd place, plus any special prizes.

Found this on one of the web sites related to the Alumni knots. These knots below represent a plaque or medal awarded to youth or adults for completing required training for leadership, service, or support. Knots are worn over the left pocket of the Scouting uniform.

BEAVAH - hey, try these on... Both are examples of what we had on our troop. An adult male, formerly with the troop, refused to allow his highly intelligent 15-yr-old son to go without him on campouts with the unit, because allegedly the boy has "anxiety problems", was "afraid of the dark", and "might cry" at night if he's there without dear old Dad, but the only time the boy ever appeared to be "anxious" was when his dad was around. The one or two times he went camping without his dad, he had fun with the guys, then crawled into his tent, conked right out and slept like a rock. Adult male & female, parents of a boy formerly with the troop, habitually stood 10 feet away from the boy while he was SPL, to make sure the boy told the other troop members exactly what dear old Dad expected him to say. Every time the boy opened his mouth and made a statement, whether it was about telling the others to be sure and pack rain gear for the weekend activity, or whether it was about when the next outdoor event would be held, he'd stop and look over at his dad for approval before going on to his next thought. When dear old Dad wasn't around, the kid was practically catatonic & sat in a chair refusing to get up and participate, or was so incapable of thinking for himself & doing anything without his dad that someone virtually had to hold his hand and tell him what to do and how to do the activity.

The kid says - I'm just getting started on this, considering options. I was going to think about the choices and write down ideas while I'm away at summer camp next week so I can get some help on how to present it. My first appointment with the zoo director was last night. It was the first time I heard what she wanted done. Those were the two ideas she had. Mom took a few notes for me while we went on a tour of the place. I sorta want to get it done before school starts so I can give it time without too many other things going on. We didn't have any idea how to do the periscope thing, which is what I'd really like to do. Mom suggested last night that I could do the beaver-chewed tree area for my Project, to get the service project done and get help from the guys in the troop, and then after the pressure to do the Eagle project is over, maybe I could do the periscope later for the fun of figuring it out and seeing how it works. The tree idea was for a tiny area, and it isn't in a location where the patrons can go right up to it and get a close look. She showed us a spot about 3 by 5 feet, about 5 to 10 feet from the tracks of the mini-train, and about 30 or 40 yards away from the zoo's fenced enclosure. It's a drive-by kind of thing, not hands-on or close-up. It also didn't seem like it was big enough to have a bunch of guys helping. I guess I could make it a little bigger to create more work and make it more visible from the train. My stepdad says he'll give me construction help, show me how to do stuff for either project, like how to mix concrete, how to set posts and brackets. He can help me figure out how deep to dig for the trees down by the river so we can get them cut off with enough tree left to set in concrete at the other location. He'll also run power equipment for me if I need it.