Kahuna

I started a new troop about 20 years ago for reasons like yours. Our SM was a control freak and was taking the troop in a direction no one wanted to go. So I lined up one ASM, we got together some dissatisfied parents and created our own sponsor. In the beginning, we met in the social hall of a friendly church and then moved to another. Eventually, we found a sponsor genuinely interested in doing all the things a chartered partner should and moved there. Obviously, that's not the best way to do it. In hindsight, it was exactly the right thing to do. For 15 years, it was one one of the best troops anywhere around. We took overseas trips, went to out of state council camps and graduated 26 Eagles. A strong caution: it was a LOT of work to do it and part of the reason we survived in the early days was that we attracted a number of boys from other troops (not by recruiting them) who had some scouting experience, along with parents who knew the ropes. The other thing was, that as an ex-professional, woodbadge trained scouter, I knew how to work the system. I also worked for myself and could arrange my schedule to go out to schools and other places to do recruiting. In our case, the impact on the community was great, but it was a large residential community with affluent families (never hurts to have money when you need it). It's not a decision to be made lightly, but the rewards if you succeed are fantastic.

Gladly. Maybe sell you a signed copy? :-) It will be a while before it's ready, though. I am just beginning the interview process.

Aloha, As some of you know, I am gathering material for a book on the history of professional scouting, with the emphasis on stories of individual men (and women, except I am more interested in the early days of the BSA, when there were no women execs). My question to members of the forum is: do you know any older retired professionals who would be willing to let me interview them or do you know any stories about professional scouters that would be noteworthy and which you would feel comfortable sharing with me, either publicly or privately? You can contact me privately if you wish. By way of disclaimer, my book is intended to be a for profit enterprise, but I am not doing it for money, as it obviously will not be a New York Times bestseller. Secondly, it is intended to be a positive book about the profession, not an expose`. Finally, I will be happy to share my bona fides with you or any retired professional who would be interested in being included. Thanks in advance for any information provided. Win Davis

I would have to come down as a C, with a proviso. I do not think viewing pornography is anymore violative of the Scout Oath and Law than is having fantasies along the same lines. I suspect most men, women and boys in scouting have had such fantasies. Eh? My proviso is that for example drinking alcohol while not involved in scouting activities is not, per se, a violation of the Oath or Law. However, abuse of alcohol would probably constitute a violation of both. I would think of pornography the same way. Assuming you are an adult, viewing legal porn, you aren't violating your Oath or Law. If you become addicted to porn, it's a different story. Another proviso would be that if viewing porn violates your religious convictions, then you would be violating the morality/religious portions of the Oath and the Law. Is that convoluted enough for you? :-)

If I were in National Supply, I would consider designing an earring with the Universal Scout insignia on it in silver and gold. That would solve all the earring issues, I think.

Try joining Sea Scouts. :-) Get one the white uniforms with epaulets on and wear white shoes. Even old fat guys like myself get complements on it. I don't know that this works as well for women as guys. The white uniform also works for boys. Last year at the Council banquet, I happened to meet and congratulate the newly installed Council President. He said, "The Scout Executive told me I can wear the uniform of any program in Scouting. I think I want that one." I told him where to get one. (Unabashed plug for Sea Scouting!)

Hi Eamonn, Guess the moral to that story is to always check your url before you post it. It does take you a lot of places. What I was referring to is: 2-Selecting leadership. The head of the chartered organization appoints a chartered organization representative to provide leadership in the selection of a committee of adults that will provide overall supervision for the unit's program. The committee selects the adult unit leaders who will work with the youth. The chartered organization representative is also a voting member of the local council and may serve as a member of the district committee. Which is under Fact Sheets: community organizations and scouting. This has always been the way it is in scouting, since I've been in it. When I went to Schiff NEI in 1970 they were teaching it that way to new professionals. However, in the first Handbook for Scoutmasters in 1913, it says part of the Scoutmaster's responsibility, once he obtains his "commission" is to organize a troop committee. So in the "good old days" the SM picked his own committee.

I don't know what happened, but I was somewhat amazed to see that, throughout this discussion (and I didn't read every word of every post) everyone is saying that the committee doesn't have the power to fire the SM. According to BSA, the CO, through it's rep, appoints the committee. The committee selects and appoints the adult leaders. The leaders all serve at the pleasure of the committee. http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ba

I just have to comment that some of the "critiques" on this and other topics in these forums sort of remind me those we used to get in the military, usually standing at attention while someone was right in your face. Does it occur to anyone that slamming like that is not conducive to encouraging posting?

It's always a good idea to have plenty of liability coverage included in your homeowners insurance. The amount depends on the amount of assets you have. If you are dirt poor and don't own anything significant, you are what's called "judgment proof." However, the tricky part of all the other coverage, BSA or Volunteer Act, is always going to be legal representation. You should assume that you will have to hire your own lawyer, at least in the beginning, if you get threatened with a lawsuit. Your homeowners may or may not pay for that. The BSA will give you a lawyer if you qualify under their guidlines and your insurance company will give you one if you qualify under their guidlines. The Volunteer Act has loopholes and will not get you off the hook for legal fees in your defense. This is not meant to be either legal advice or to scare anybody out of being a volunteer. In practice, unless you are doing something really, really stupid (and I'm sure none of us would be doing anything like that), the likelihood of legal action against you is remote. The BSA policies are just intended to be good CYA stuff for all of us. Use good sense and you'll be okay most of the time. For the rest of the time, check your homeowners liability coverage.

16 out of 17. I don't know beans about Cubbing! :-)

I've often wondered why it is that people are so willing to assume that heroes are without flaw and to dump them when they find out they are not. I think it's only normal that an organization like the BSA tries to cull it's history and remember the heroic and forget the petty squabbling and personal animosities. We all wish it could be different in any organization, but we are all human and we all have our reasons for doing what we do. The magic of scouting is, I think, in the fact that it started itself, as B-P said "unseen." It has continued to attract volunteers and boys in members that are wonderous. It also attracts people like many of us, who have stayed active long after their kids were grown up. Most of the bickering and squabbling and infighting of the early days of scouting has no real relevance to the basic history, but I see no reason that kids shouldn't be allowed to understand that not everything is perfect and that we have to look at the world with that understanding.

Aloha JD, isn't their beef with the govt.? They can't change BSA, they can only impact how the govt. acts toward us If I lived across the street from you and was trying to get the government to tear down your house because I thought it was architecturally offensive, would you say my beef was with the government? What if I was a lawyer and had enough money to keep taking you to court until you finally run out of cash? in relation to how the govt. acts toward other private clubs Would it matter if I thought the other people in the neighborhood had nice houses that should stay? They are clearly trying to change the BSA by dragging the organization repeatedly through the courts. They believe (and to some extent rightly) that these actions will cause the organization to behave according to their notions of right and wrong. I don't think BSA is as important to the ACLU as we sometimes think For one thing, it doesn't matter whether we are or we aren't, the result of their actions is detrimental to the BSA and to it's public image. I doubt they sit up at night thinking about the BSA, but if you watch the pattern of the ACLU's lawsuits, you will see they regard it as a danger to the youth of the nation. I doubt that many ACLU lawyers have kids in Boy Scouts. BTW, wouldn't ACLU lawyers argue that they're just freedom fighters standing up for the disenfranchised and those whom are discriminated against? Of course they would. And wouldn't Osama Bin Laden and his ilk argue (and doubtless believe in their heart of hearts that they are) exactly that? This post sounds a bit hostile and I don't mean it that way (at least not to you). I just think we need to recognize the ACLU for what it is: a left-wing, anti-Constitution, anti-religious bunch of people whose actions are antithetic to the good of the country. I doesn't matter what they call themselves or how they view themselves. Al Queda believes it is doing the work of God. ACLU sees itself in much the same way. I see them both as an evil they world would be better off without.

ACLU does not receive government funding. I believe it is a 501 ©(3) not-for-profit, just like BSA, so contributions to it are tax deductible. Their funding comes mainly from liberal groups and individuals like George Soros and Moveon.org. When you consider how much they spent in the effort to elect John Kerry, you can see how much is available. They have "sway" with courts because they are ubiquitous. They have resources that far outweigh those of the average lawyer. In many parts of the country the judges are in sympathy with ACLU views anyway, so it isn't hard to convince them. The only reason they haven't succeeded in eliminating or changing the BSA in drastic ways is that majority of Americans are sympathetic to the Scouts and want their kids in an organization with pretty much mainstream values. Of course, I think they are an unsconscionable group. I feel that lawyers have to use their own morality in deciding what cases to prosecute and I don't see how they can justify to themselves what they do.

Bob White, I stand corrected. I don't have a current manuel, mine is the previous version, which doesn't discuss that. There was a recent flurry of messages on the Sea Scout listserve, which I reviewed and you are correct about six knots. I still don't see why they care. I certainly feel that the white or blue Sea Scout uniform looks better with less on it than more, but I didn't feel they needed to institutionalize it. I think the Wood Badge bead thing is due to a conscious effort to separate "sea" Scouts and "dirt" Scouts. I doubt that it will change. Sea Scouting, of course, has it's own version, Seabadge, and Sea Scouters can wear the Powderhorn insignia as Venture leaders. There's a guy in Florida who has been a Skipper forever and runs a Sea Scout Regatta every year who wears his beads on a white lanyard, which I think is pretty funny. Not legal, of course, but funny.

The problem is that coaches will never compromise with Scouting. I would be surprised if a coach lets a kid go 15 minutes early to go to a Scout meeting. IMHO, the solution is for parents to go after them like Jesus in the Temple and explain it's just a game. Unfortunately, most parents would defer to baseball or football and ignore Scouting. It is certainly true that they will get more out of Scouting in 30 minutes or even ten than none and SMs should be flexible. But why do WE have to be the ones to compromise when they never do. Further rant will be mumbled to myself.

I, too, would like to read more about Bill Hillcourt. Although I knew him, I don't know much more about his history than what Terry has written on this site. I certainly know he had more energy at 87 than most people do when they're fifty! I have a picture of him snorkeling at a spring in Central Florida in the late 1980's after I took him on a canoe trip up the Wekiva River. I have video of him talking with a group of Scouts and leaders at a friends home in Florida, talking about why scouting was such a great program and expressing his loathing for skill awards. He always said (ca. 1987) that we should gather up all the skill awards, put them in boxcars and store them at some remote desert site. Then we would wait 20 years and offer them for sale (Ebay would have been perfect!) to collectors, thereby enriching the BSA. On the same video is a clip of Bill teaching a song to a bunch of Scouts at a meeting. Bill was born in 1900, which he recognized was the last year of the 19th Century. He wondered if he might live long enough to make the 21st and be able to live in 3 centuries. I was betting he would, but he didn't quite get there. He was a great man and only wish I could have had the experience with him that Terry did.

As a fellow certified scouting history nut, there are many topics of scouting history that interest me a lot. Baden-Powell has always been a hero figure to me. I realize that he was, like all the rest of us, flawed in some ways, but a hero nonetheless. There's plenty of material out there about his history and I'm not sure we really need any more, but we do need to get some of the stories out to to our Scouts. Years ago, I did an impersonation of B-P, using a combination of material from actual speeches that he made. I had a B-P uniform made up and learned to do basic stage makeup a British accent. I found that the presentation resonated with boys as if they had met the Founder. Adults as well. I also made it a point to tell boys around the campfire the story of Mafeking and some of the other episodes from his life. I would really like to see more of his life related to boys in the form of stories. I also enjoyed the Scouting Magazine series "The Way It Was," that told some stories of the early days of scouting in an interesting way. As you know, I'm working on a book about (primarily) the early professionals. Some of their stories show an amazing dedication to a brand new movement. They worked incredibly long hours, seven days a week, spent all summer at camp and some had part-time jobs to earn enough money to support their families. During the Great Depression, funding dropped enormously from sources like the Community Chest and yet they soldiered on. I also like to see displays of old Scout uniforms and insignia and find that to be interesting to kids and adults.

They've had that program for a very long time. I think they wanted something to bridge the gap between cubbing and scouting. Maybe somebody from LDS scouting will know more about it than I.

I'm betting there will come a time when a POTUS will not endorse (or even denounce) the BSA. Clinton got very close by snubbing a jamboree that was practically in his back yard. Many liberal politicians believe they're better off with the support of the same groups that oppose the BSA. However, every sitting president so far, as far as I know, has received the annual report of the BSA from it's uniformed youth members.

This is a fascinating discussion. I've never been one to worry too much about what BSA requires or doesn't require or what the uniform or insignia guidlines are. F'rinstance, whereas unit scouters in all programs can wear all the square knots to which they are entitled (and you see some scouters whose shoulder tabs have to be moved to their back in order to accomodate them all), the Sea Scout Manual says members of that program can only wear three of their choice. Why is that? Who knows? Most Sea Scouters wear as many as they want. I never wear more than three anyway. However, in all humility, I would like to point out there is a uniform for each program and there is a reason for it. As a SM, I never required to boys to own uniforms, but I always managed to have 100% uniformed troops. I also managed to have them wear the uniform properly, except under very unusual circumstances. I do recall one troop meeting in which a Scout's younger brother showed up because he had to have the shoes the older one was wearing for an athletic event. He didn't bring another pair of shoes, so the Scout finished the rest of the meeting in his socks (scout socks, btw). There were also times when boys came to meetings directly from football practice in football uniforms and very dirty and were not hassled due to circumstance. They would have never come to a BOR or COH like that. The way we did that was very simple: leadership. It takes a little time, a lot of effort and the adults absolutely must be willing to set the example by wearing only the official uniform. After a while, it becomes part of the esprit of the unit. It's a matter of pride for a boy not to "let down the side" by wearing something improper. I'm an old military guy and would rather see Scouts wear civies than a uniform shirt with blue jeans or full uniform with shorts and white socks. I've seen other unit leaders do the same. At the same time, I'm a great believer that the most important part of scouting is the program. If a troop doesn't support wearing proper uniform, but otherwise gives the kids the scouting program, I would not be inclined to criticize them, although if I were the unit commissioner, I might encourage them in that direction. As to wearing the uniform at the Jamboree, there is an entirely different principle at stake. Jamborees are the most public events at which Scouts normally appear. There is nothing hypocritical about making that a requirement to participate. I don't believe council camps can require uniforms in order to attend. I have never been to one that did, but it's been a while since I went to a council camp, so I may be out of date. Just my two cents.

I know a couple of dozen old Scout songs (being an old Scout myself), but couldn't tell you how old they are or give you the music. I do have a couple of suggestions. Check Ebay and other places for an old Boy Scout Songbook. They were in print until the 1970's, if I'm not mistaken (and I am often mistaken). There also was a 33 1/3 vinyl record by Burl Ives that came out in the 1960's with a lot of old songs on it. You might try Ebay or old record sales swap meets for that.

I can't believe how much I'm learning about the origins of the BSA. I've read Hillcourt's and Jeal's books, the 1914 Handbook for Scoutmasters (which has a lot of organization info, such as how to form a Council and suggested Constitution for the same), and lots of others. Much of what you are discussing here was not, for more or less obvious reasons, included in the official BSA material and probably beyond the scope of Hillcourt and Jeal. Fascinating stuff, guys! I am really impressed with the knowledge and amount of research I'm finding here. Win

That one stopped me for a minute. I had forgotten the Kurt Russel played Whitey in that movie. BTW, the movie was based on MacKinlay Kantor's book God And My Country. The book is even better than the movie is, believe it or not.

From what reading I have done on Baden-Powell and from conversations with Bill Hillcourt, I do not believe he was a devout (born again type) Christian. He was, I believe, what many British are today, a nominal church goer. He did feel, though, that religious belief gave some foundation to anyone, particularly when it came to obligations and duty. Britain, of course, does not have separate church and state as we do. The head of state is also head of the Church of England. In that era, it was assumed that everybody belonged to a church, probably a Christian one.