Kahuna

Latest update: The eBook is now available from lulu.com. It will be on Amazon in a week or so, but Lulu is charging the same price, $8.99.

Latest update on the ebook from Lulu is that it will probably be available by early July. They're moving fast. Don't know the price yet.

There are valid reasons, pro and con, why gay marriage is or is not good for society. However, what we are obviously seeing is a very rapid change in public opinion in favor of allowing gays the same privileges in society as others.

Last Jamboree there were lots of Scouters in Fredericksburg motels and at the trading site a hotel there. This time, there's a trade-o-ree set in Mt Hope, but no lodgings there. I assume anyone not staying at the Jamboree will be in Charleston. So, anybody plan to make the trip who is not going to be on staff or troop staff? Where are you going to be? I'm considering whether to include it in my vacation plans.

Yes, I'm working with Lulu on it now. They are just moving slowly.

At the risk of shameless self-promotion, those interested in Scouting history might want to check out http://www.facebook.com/menofschiff and http://www.menofschiff.org. Both center on the book, Men of Schiff, A History of the Professional Scouters Who Built the Boy Scouts of America.

Scouting, along with everything else related to kids, has gotten bogged down in procedure, rules and political correctness (not referring to the sex orientation or religious issue here). B-P and Hillcourt emphasized that Scouting is a program intended to build character, citizenship and enable boys to grow into men who could care for themselves. The best way then and now is through a robust outdoor program and strong male leadership. Uniforms, badges and other things are merely methods of helping them to attain those goals. They are unimportant in themselves. So, is it prissy? Definitely. Is it overly bureaucratic? Absolutely. It will still succeed only where there are troops that understand those principles. Scouting is not for every boy and every parent. We'll never be able to make it so.

I certainly would not bring his religious beliefs into question. That would be a big turn-off for a religious 17 year old. Personally, I agree with TJ in thinking that most anti-gay people are that way for reasons that have nothing to do with religion and use it as a justification, but that doesn't necessarily apply to a young guy like that. Talking about the fact that he will pretty much have to associate with people who have different beliefs of all kinds in his life would be a better approach. Certainly associating with people who are openly gay is going to be a bigger issue as time goes on, so preparing kids for that is not a bad objective in Scouting. I just read a local article about Gay Days at Disney World. The article points out how much more accepted they are now than back when they started Gay Days. Disney takes no stand on Gay Days, but they sell a lot of red and rainbow merchandise during this time of the year. It was mentioned that a straight parent was quoted as saying they purposely brought their kids during this time of the year just to expose them to the idea of tolerance. Who'd have thunk? Along the lines of this issue, I keep hearing about the lack of anti-gay policies "back in the day,"

I thought this was an especially thoughtful piece. It would be good reading for anyone with doubts about the issue, but for the more conservative Christian elements, it's something they really should consider before deciding the BSA no longer has any redeeming value.

It should be pointed out that Wayne Perry is a volunteer, just like most of us. We don't pay him anything. I'm fairly confident that he has sampled the vote enough to believe that the outcome will be to pass the resolution as it is.

I just learned that my old Scoutmaster, W. Warren Murray of Holbrook, MA, passed away last week at the age of 86. He was only my SM for one year, because of all our military moves, but it was the year I made Eagle, was elected to the OA and became an ASM. He made a point of keeping in touch with me throughout his life. We lost connections once, years ago, and he wrote to National Council. National wouldn't give out addresses, but forwarded his letter and we reestablished contact. Warren stayed in Scouting to the very end of his life. He had earned the Silver Beaver and was serving on the commissioner staff when his health failed. He was a Navy veteran of WWII. He was a tough Scoutmaster, but he knew how to run an outdoor program and insisted that his troop go to camp for two weeks each summer at Camp Massasoit, on the Cape. BTW, he still had his old 1950s era wool leader uniform and could still wear it! Feeling a touch of sadness and a little old today.

I just learned that my old Scoutmaster, W. Warren Murray of Holbrook, MA, passed away last week at the age of 86. He was only my SM for one year, because of all our military moves, but it was the year I made Eagle, was elected to the OA and became an ASM. He made a point of keeping in touch with me throughout his life. We lost connections once, years ago, and he wrote to National Council. National wouldn't give out addresses, but forwarded his letter and we reestablished contact. Warren stayed in Scouting to the very end of his life. He had earned the Silver Beaver and was serving on the commissioner staff when his health failed. He was a Navy veteran of WWII. He was a tough Scoutmaster, but he knew how to run an outdoor program and insisted that his troop go to camp for two weeks each summer at Camp Massasoit, on the Cape. BTW, he still had his old 1950s era wool leader uniform and could still wear it! Feeling a touch of sadness and a little old today.

I just learned that my old Scoutmaster, W. Warren Murray of Holbrook, MA, passed away last week at the age of 86. He was only my SM for one year, because of all our military moves, but it was the year I made Eagle, was elected to the OA and became an ASM. He made a point of keeping in touch with me throughout his life. We lost connections once, years ago, and he wrote to National Council. National wouldn't give out addresses, but forwarded his letter and we reestablished contact. Warren stayed in Scouting to the very end of his life. He had earned the Silver Beaver and was serving on the commissioner staff when his health failed. He was a Navy veteran of WWII. He was a tough Scoutmaster, but he knew how to run an outdoor program and insisted that his troop go to camp for two weeks each summer at Camp Massasoit, on the Cape. BTW, he still had his old 1950s era wool leader uniform and could still wear it! Feeling a touch of sadness and a little old today.

And it's a meaningful surprise that the Missouri Synod would take this stance?

Sorry, I stand corrected. No, I would feel differently about 2 known gay leaders taking a troop of kids out. Again, I would want to know them as well as I would know any Scout leader who takes kids out, regardless of any background checks. To some degree, I treat any men (or women) who want to take boys out camping with extreme suspicion unless I know them or have at least spent time watching their interaction with kids.

Well said.

I don't know if Wayne has grandkids that age or not. I don't, but if I did, yes, I would be okay with that. Kids or grandkids. Assuming I knew the guys in question. That goes for letting kids go into the woods with any 2 guys who have passed the BSA background check. Why would you assume the gay guys would be any more likely to molest them than any other 2 men in Scouting? But, in fact, you are posing a strawman kind of argument, because normally 2 boys and 2 men would not be going on a Scout outing.

I say again, there are no valid reasons, other than religious, for the exclusion of gays at any level of Scouting. If the BSA is truly nonsectarian, then there is no reason to ban them. For the benefit of those concerned about gay leaders taking boys into the woods, Wayne Brock stated that we have the best youth protection program of any youth organization. So, either the BSA is a religious organization with a particular religious bias, or it isn't.

Regardless of what happened recently, the IRS is a political tool that is used by politicians of all stripes to modify social or business behavior. The only solution is to repeal the 16th Amendment and institute a flat tax, fair tax, 9/9 tax or something else. The tax code was ridiculous 30 years ago when i studied it in law school and it has grown exponentially since.

All of which is why I will likely stay on Scouting, although my feelings about my fellow Scouters will not be quite the same as they were. Of course, they really haven't been the same for a while now, because the people in Scouting are not the same. I shouldn't be surprised, since society has changed so much, that people in Scouting change too. What it really comes down to for me is, how can I help boys (nothing against girls, they just aren't what this program is about) to become better men and better citizens.

I didn't get the email and no one I know did either. I'm happy about that, but very disappointed in the fact that such an overwhelming majority of leaders and parents are in favor of keeping the ban. The ones I work with directly seem to be pretty much on the side of letting gays in at all levels. Now, I don't see that happening in the near future. I fear the vote will be in favor of keeping the status quo. I guess I could live with that, but knowing all these other Scouters feel the way they do makes me uncomfortable. I will probably continue as a Scouter, but will never feel quite the same about Scouting again.

Yeah, well mission statements are mission statements. As far as I'm concerned, we are chartered by Congress to do these things for BOYS. "The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

As I read the posts here, it seems to me one thing is missing. WHY would the BSA even want to consider this? Never mind the obstacles, boys will be boys, tears, sex, whatever. The purpose of Boy Scouting is to put boys in an outdoor environment and offer them fun activities that will lead to their becoming capable adults. Leadership, ability to care for yourself in the outdoors and elsewhere, patriotism and encourage (not teach) spirituality. How exactly would inclusion of girls promote any of these goals?

ROFL! I think you nailed it, TJ.

So: What if this? What if that? What if space aliens wanted to join your troop? There is a lot of arguing going on here that has nothing to do with the principal point of all this. Everything turns on what the Scout Oath means when it says "morally straight," doesn't it? Belief in God or the Twelfth Scout Law don't come into it, if different religions have different takes. Ergo, it is purely a matter of your religious belief. Nothing else. Youth safety? We have the best in the world. Adult role models? Psychologists and behavioral scientists tell us that youth sexuality is not determined in the long run by role models. Boys emulate a lot of behavior from adults they admire, but not their sexual leanings. Boys seducing other boys? See above. Besides, boys DO seduce each other all the time in Scouting and out. It's part of growing up and has nothing to do with their adult sexual orientation. The BSA has always been tolerant of differing religious beliefs. We accommodate Jewish boys who are Kosher. We accommodate Hindus who don't like to see meat being eaten. We accommodate Muslims who don't want to cook bacon for their patrol. We accommodate Unitarians who believe who knows what at a given moment. Even the religions who teach that homosexuality is wrong generally (Muslims don't and probably others) subscribe to something like "hate the sin but not the sinner." I'm a Buddhist. HH The Dalai Lama says the Buddhist teachings are that homosexual behavior is wrong, but that it is also wrong to chastise, hate or refuse to associate with those who practice it. So, if this is an organization that holds that a belief in Supreme Being is necessary, but other than that we can practice our religion any way we choose so long as legal and not harmful to others, how can we not make allowance for those who don't believe that homosexuality is wrong? Why should some people leave the program because of a principle that has been there all along? Would you leave because you have boys and leaders who must pray five times daily facing Mecca? It's simple, really! BTW, although I agree with Beavah on most things (excepting that Obama governs from the center ), I strongly disagree with his statement on homophobia. I think there are many out there who do hate and fear gays. A psychologist can explain this to you, but I won't. In my heart, I believe this is the main issue and that the other stuff is just self-justification. Incidentally this Sunday the anti-gays in Scouting coalition OnMyHonor.net is planning a big national simulcast. At least one of the speakers will say that the gay agenda is Satanic and that the object is to tear down the image of Jesus. That, my friends, is pure religion and I doubt that other speakers will say anything that will address the meaning of this as it relates to religious discrimination in Scouting. I mean by this discrimination among religions, not against or for religion, which is a topic for another time.