kahits

Thanks, LB. To answer your question, my son and I came to this troop to keep it from folding. We have seen a large group of boys age out, some with their Eagle rank, and some without it, in the past 27 months. We have recruited boys with limited success and are currently rebuilding everything. 2, W2's have already joined the troop from that pack, in the past few months, which is making this crossover much easier for the W1's, or so I am being told. Our group of older boys is small, including my son. The new members will be going to Brownsea this summer, and my son will attend NYLT. The other two, older boys are sporadic in their troop attendance, and I don't think they will make it thru recharter, unless they get serious about their Eagle work. So, this is more an opportunity for 5th grade aged scouts, then for anybody else, at the moment. I wish there was more to offer these Webelos, but their parents are relieved that their boys are not going to have to run any gauntlets to get comfortable after they crossover. My son continues to pursue his ranks, possibly earning Life after summer camp, and enjoying dancing and drumming in the Lodge, with brotherhood coming next month. He has a spot for Philmont on the Council contingent, next summer, and has scheduled his Eagle project to put up a portable powwow arbor for his charter school, with hopefully a lot of scouts from the OA chapter and the troop, the week before he leaves for his trek. How he kept his focus on pursing the program when the unit seemed to be dissolving all around him, is amazing.

Thanks, very much.... all of them will be 10, by the time we have their ceremony. I had always heard 10 1/2 years old, but that seems to have been changed. I did talk with my DE and he said they can over ride the registration software, if they feel it is justified, and he was willing to do that to support the troop recruitment, but I don't think that will be necessary, now. Thanks, again.

Having been toiling for the past 28 months, to recruit the future of my son's troop, and finally have a good group of W2's committed to crossing over this fall, I have a question. They all have their AOL's or will by the end of their W1 year (don't ask me how). The quesion is how closely to follow the AOL and 10 1/2 age requirement, since some of these boys will qualify but others will have to wait until next spring? I will be losing most of my parents and older scouts, this year, and I strongly urged them to consider a Fall 08 crossover, if there was going to be any chance of a smooth transition. Obviously, some of these boys will be at least 10 y's.o., but won't meet the letter of what BSA requires. The CM spoke with our new DE, and he didn't say anything one way or another, but to do what you have to do. Since they are all registered with the pack, the DOB's are recorded. The last time we waited for boys who were ready months earlier (parents drug their feet on crossover), they never made it, and dropped out of CS's before we could set up the ceremony. I know I am only going to get one shot at this, with this group, and with my son working towards finishing his Eagle, next year (and going to PSR on a contingent), one way or another, I'm stepping down as SM at the end of 09. Is this going to be a problem for this group of boys and dads?

Starting my third year with my son's troop, I have seen a trend with our district that is becoming too familiar. The DE I had for all 5 years with my son's pack, involved a very capable volunteer who ran our district FOS program, which resulted in his award of the Silver beaver and subsequent departure from the district and scouting, as I was coming into the troop. Since that time, the next, new DE (a 9 year professional) was given the task of running the FOS campaign, which he was quite good at. Unfortunately, there were other circumstances that resulted in him taking a promotion out of state. Enter a brand new DE candidate, with no prior experience other then his Eagle youth as a scout. With 4 months under his belt, and a new born daughter, he has confided in me that he may not make it past his 1st year, primarily because he can't deal with the weight of FOS, on top of everything else that he is required to do. My question... how does your district run their FOS campaign and how many put this burden squarely on the shoulders of the DE? This was not the way it used to be, and we don't need an endless string of DE's coming and going, because their responsibilities are beyond their ability to complete.

Does anyone know where I can find an OA flag? I would like a 3x5 version, but can not find a source.

I have heard this tale told so many times, and thought I would just ask here. The felt Philmont bull patch that you seen on many a red scout shirt/jacket, and whether the tail is over the shoulder or not. Is there a PSR police force out there with the official regulation?

Thanks Oak, I can't believe how much camping I did that first year, with me having to step up quickly to take my son's group camping in a troop that was in the process of aging out. Why the older boys no longer went camping was a mystery to me, but once I saw the rank requirements past First class, I could see where they may have not been encouraged to continue to camp. That is the legacy I inherited, and it's been pretty inert since then, but this year the troop is moving in the right direction.. finally. Now I have a fresh group of new scouts to take camping, and try to keep my son camping as well, as he completes his Life rank requirements.

Actually, I checked. I had 13 nights in with the troop and 4 with the Venture crew, I started for my daughter. I don't think crew camping would count, since my daughter will never be eligible. Bottom line, I decided to wait and go in with my son, the next year, and it's been great.

Apparently, he was referring to a district nomination, which can waive the camping requirement, but he spoke in the context of my being nominated thru my troop committee, which I would have been ineligible for, having been in the troop only 6 months. I'm going to NLATS, this weekend, and will no doubt learn more about a great many things. Thank you, SN.

Just a quick question. I was told by me DE, back in 06, that the camping requirement had been removed for adult OA membership. Now it seems that requirement never was removed? Was he mistaken, when he told me that?

Thank you, Mike.. that is some great, experienced advice. My nephew has still not responded back to my offer, which may mean he isn't going to take it, but I am still hopeful. As to your questions, he is 14, but is almost 6 foot tall. The other boys who are going are 2-3 more 14 year olds and the rest are 15 to 16, and one who is 17. As for their physical abiliies, I would say they are all in about the same boat. Nobody over weight, but other then playing sports (my nephew plays soccer and basketball), they will need to train to properly prepare for the trek. They are just now starting their first backpack training, this past weekend, which seems a little late to be doing that, especially considering they are at 1,300 feet in elevation. He is a very smart kid, who plays in a symphony (percussion), and does things like chess club, as well. He never misses a campout, which is why it has been difficult for his mom (but she will never admit that.. tough lady.). They did 2 summer camp sessions last summer, which she finally stayed home for the 2nd one, which was in Minnesota. I give her alot of credit for supporting him, in all this. If you knew my brother, you would know why she has been doing this. Having a 6' 10", Sioux, Desert Storm Marine Captain as an ASM would be hard to ignore. I will say that my nephew has not had many male role models, outside of the troop, between his younger sister, his mother, and her mother. They do what they can, but we don't see enough of him or them, with us being 1,000 miles apart. I, obviously, have no idea what their intentions for a Philmont trek are going to be, but they should have kept the two boys in the training, at least as alternates. It just speaks to their inexperience as Scoutmasters to make this so cut and dried. If anything changes, it would not be acceptable to bring one of these boys back in, without having trained with the group.

Thanks, Greg... This is probably why his mother spent so much time accompanying him on campouts, because there were alot of dad's doing the same thing. I know a few troops that have large groups of adults accompany the boys on campouts, and guess this may be a byproduct of that unit dynamic. I could never bring myself to ask her why she did that, but I'm sure she had good reasons. Even when the wear and tear of ground camping took it's toll on her, she kept doing what she could. She is the only female ASM in the troop, and just does what she can to support and encourage him (she also runs a GS troop for her daughter). When I finally found out about this fiasco, she was not complaining, and just said he might not have been ready to do what it would take. I give her alot of credit for helping him cope, but I have heard a few comments that leads me to believe this group of leaders have been in this for themselves for longer then my nephew has been in the unit and there really is not other unit for him to join, in their rural area of the state. I spoke with the District director, today, and he said we have until May 1st, to put down the first deposit for the 09 Contingent, and I had him add his name to my list, saying he would be transferred down here by then. They already have a husband and wife signed up as the advisers for the trek, which means the 2 or 3 other adults I know of, are probably not going to make the final cut. Only one more will be lucky to remain on this roster, as it should be. So, to clarify, I will not be going on the contingent. Having been with my son for just about everything since he was in Tigers, I think this is a time for him to have his own personal experience, but all the more reason to enourage his cousin (more like a brother) to commit to this one time journey in Northern NM. I know they will never forget it.

I guess my reaction to how this was done, concerned which boys were really on the bubble. Apparently, it was not the scouts who had fathers signed up, so it came down to the other scouts. Of course my nephew no longer has a father, so he was on that bubble no matter what. They could have done a lottery for the trek, but that would have taken some manner of control out of the equation, and that was not an option they went with. Ultimately, the boys who dropped out will very likely never have this opportunity again, and that decision should have been fair to everyone who committed to going, last summer.

The total sign up for this troops Philmont trek was 4 adults and 10 youth. They kept the dads and asked 2 of the boys to voluntarily drop out. Eventually, 2 boys, who did not have fathers on the list, did drop out.

It is in a rural area of Eastern Nebraska, and it is a good old boy group of dads, who all go camping with their boys, which I guess is just as much reason for my SIL to go with her son. She sends me photos from time to time and they do have alot of dad's on their campouts. I'll do what I can to offer the only alternative my nephew is going to get to make it to Philmont, because if it doesn't happen, he may likely decide to do other things after getting eagle, this year, without ever making it there. I have still not heard back from my emails, but I hope they are thinking about it. He has a couple of weeks to decide.

Good point, Vicki... anything is certainly possible. Part of it is that she rarely lets him go camping with the troop, without her going along. Why she does that is for reasons that have to do with his place in this troop. Sure, I think this could have been one of those calls where it was just easier to step up and drop out, but leading up to that decision, I know he was very excited about going. He told me so. The flip side is this will probably be his only chance to make it to Philmont, because the troop only goes something like every 4 to 5 years, which would put him in college by then. I guess I'll find out when I hear back from her and him, as to my offer for him to go on my son's contingent. If it means what I think it once did, he will think long and hard, and ask a few more questions on how that could work. If it doesn't, then I'll know pretty quick. I guess I'm trying to at least give him another option, because what they gave him was not.

The Scoutmaster made the announcement that there were 2 boys too many, signed up, to make their 08 Philmont trek, and it was necessary for 2 boys to step up and offer to take their name off the list. There was no discussion with the dads, to do the same, which is what should have happened. What is really unfortunate, is this was my brothers, son. He was a Desert Storm veteran who died of cancer when his son was not yet 3 years old. Obviously, these 4 dad's and their boys (one dad is going with 2 of his sons) were given preference, and my nephew was of lesser priority. My son is on a list for my council's Philmont contingent in 09, and I have been given permission (my DE said he would back me up) to include him in my group of boys (we had 5 spots and only have 3 who can go, now, including the ASM), but I'm not sure I can convince him to do this. We are in NM and he is in NE, which is a logistical problem, but he would have another year to mature (his mother's comment, that he was probably not ready.. What boy is ready, until they start training?), and could still train with his troop's group, and then come down for the month of June, and finish up training with this contingent, before I take them up in the middle of that month. I am not going with them, but have a wonderful ASM who is, and it would be my son's chance to finally do something with his cousin, who has always been a year ahead of him in scouting since they were Tigers. I'm going to remain hopeful he will accept this option, after this unfortunate failure of the adults in his troop.(This message has been edited by kahits)

newcrewtoo, PM sent!

I just spoke with my wife's sister, who's son is a year ahead of my son in scouting. They have, both, been in it since Tigers. My nephew's troop is set for a Philmont trek this summer, and I just found out the troop brow beat two boys out of the trek, including him, while there are 4 dad's who were allowed to remain. I know he is not that happy with the troop, but this really is unfortunate. He will probably complete his Eagle requirements, later this year, and will probably leave the troop, so there is little chance he will go back on another trek to Philmont. I know this is preaching to the choir, but I get disgusted when I hear about parents moving scouts out of these experiences, and the unit leader, apparently, not willing to do the right thing and ask two of them to step down. To even make an announcement to the troop, rather then just tell the adults they need to work it out, is a little hard to imagine.

Prayers to the family...

Thank you all for your honest assessments. The scout involved is my son (he was awarded his Star in January, and will be 14 in July). We had several 15 year old boys that we accepted into the troop, but they were all friends, and when one was pulled out, because his stepfather got upset with one of his son's friends in the troop, there was a cascade that took all of them out of the troop, or they soon will be. I'm trying to get them to join a crew that I started, 2 years ago, to keep them in scouting, but we had to bite the bullet and just let them go. There was too much baggage that was only going to tear down our few remaining, younger boys. It looks like we have 5 new boys (all 5th graders) coming into the troop, by next month, and there will be at least the possibility of 7 to 10 Webelos coming later this year, if it is meant to be. My son is the only candidate for SPL, and is up for the challenge. He will have his Life rank by late summer, and is preregistered for Philmont on the Council contingent, in June of 09. I was hoping the other boys would go with him, but that is probably not realistic. He still wants to do everything that is planned, but I'm still a little ambivalent, because he is my son, and this is a big step for him. I don't doubt he can do it, but being the SM and having him in this situation is not what I was wanting to see happen so soon. He already has his Eagle project planned for next year (with my help), and all of the hard Eagle required MB's are completed (none with my signature on them) for the most part, so this thing seems to be taking off, no matter what. He and I went into OA in May, and he's dancing up a storm (he's been dancing since he was 7) and loving being an Arrowman. He spoke late as a child, but has been on fire for scouting ever since he brought that flyer home in 1st grade, and 6 1/2 years later, here he is.

Thank you, Emb... In order for this to be worthwhile, it will require some discussion with the NYLT SM, but there is no Kodiak available, at least not in the council. There is talk about putting one on, but there are no indications it is close to being in the works. I have been told that NYLT is very much like the new WB, which is a more general training and not as troop specific as the old WB or JLT was. If this is true, it is more a general leadership (I have heard it more described as management) training then the older versions it replaced. I would be curious to see if it might be possible to have them establish a venture patrol at NYLT, if we can combine several crew's worth of officers, along with my two boys who are leaving the troop to possibly join the one crew. The VLSC can certainly reinforce that, and they do need to run thru that training, whether or not they are able to make the time commitment to do this. I think these kids are old enough to figure out the differences between the two programs, but just getting them together for something that is not just another campout or crew meeting, to work on developing their leadership skills, is more the issue. Right now there is nothing on the horizon that can support that, and these HS Freshmen and Sophomores are not getting any younger. I wish there was more support for Venturing in the council, but for now, they are lucky just to have a crew to be active with, and perhaps someday it will change, starting with that Council wide Kodiak, but it isn't happening this summmer, and NYLT is.

Thanks, John. Yes, it would be easy to say that our Council is not able to provide the kinds of support for the crews in our area, probably because of the small number of crews that exist in our 3 districts in the metro area. Having done the VLSC when I was Crew Advisor, I did what I could to bring as much traiing to the unit, but now that I am no longer the lead advisor, I can see that is not going to be enough. I brought up the idea of them attending NYLT, more as an after thought, with me sending boys from my son's troop, but now that I have done some google searches, I can see several councils that are offering NYLT for Venture crews, as well as functioning VOC's. I guess you have to work with what you have.

I was just told by the SM for this summers NYLT that girls from crews could attend. Have any of you ever heard of that. I told him to confirm that, but the crew that I started could certainly benefit from an experience such as this, even if it's more of a troop type of training structure.

Having a small, younger troop, I am planning on sending a few of the older boys to camp for leader training. I'm curious what kinds of training they offer in that week at camp, and whether a 13 year old/Star scout would benefit from the training, or is it for older boys. Can you give me an idea of the kinds of methods they use to bring leadership to these boys. I was told it was similar to Wood Badge, as in more management types of training, over leadership that was in the old WB. I have no idea.