kahits

I finally got a hold of my DE and he said it was fine to use either type. Apparently they have a Christmas sock in the scout shop that comes with a 4 sided neckerchief, and it was their impression the change was made to cut down on material cost, much like the Tiger cub totem going from leather to plastic. Now I think the whole design of the neckerchief needs to be reconsidered, starting with the type of fabric, and weave pattern. If this is going to be a more useful uniform component, the light cotton broadcloth there are using is probably not going to hold up to being used as a tool. That might be the hard part, getting them to go with a new design, but then, they are all leaving next year. I love a design challenge.

Thanks, FScouter... there is at least the possibility the neckerchief is one part of the uniform that is optional in it's design. I found this website: http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/uniform.htm that had this to say: Scouting Uniforming ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America have changed many times since the first uniforms were introduced in the early 20s. Before that time, military uniforms were used as the first uniforms for Boy Scouts and Scoutmasters. Today, the BSA's uniforms are among the most recognizable uniforms within the United States. There's different styles and options, which has caused some minor concern among some Scouters that feel that the ONLY uniform is the CURRENT one. This page, along with the graphics and diagrams, answers most of the common questions dealing with the wear and usage of the uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America. Uniforms There are currently SIX CURRENT official uniforms of the BSA: * the orange and black teeshirt used by Tiger Cub Scouts * the blue and gold uniform used by most Cub Scouts and WEBELOS Cub Scouts * the "khakitan" uniform (khaki tan shirt, green pants) worn by some Cub Scouts, WEBELOS Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Explorers and volunteer and professional Scouters; this uniform is the "default" BSA field uniform * the kelly green uniform worn by Explorers * the blue blazer, red/silver/blue tie, and grey slacks worn by some volunteers and professional Scouters * and I am reminded that the gold blouses and blue slacks or skirts may STILL be worn by female Cub Scouters! (Thanks, Marsha Adelson!!!) .............. Each unit can decide their uniforming standards in accordance with the BSA's uniforming policies. For instance, two Packs in the same town can have two separate "standards of dress" for their youth members: One pack can have ALL youth and adult members wear the khakitan uniform with the approviate dark blue shoulder loops which indicates Cub Scouting and Cub Scouters. The other pack can allow WEBELOS Cub Scouts (those in the last two years of the Cub Scouting program and whom are transitioning to Boy Scouting) to wear the khakitan uniforms while all other Cub Scouts wear the traditional blue and gold (yellow) uniforms. Likewise, two separate Troops can decide on which uniform options are to be worn. Which brings up the following important points about wearing older uniforms: The question was whether or not older uniform parts (hats specifically, but in general uniform parts) can still be worn by Scouts and Scouters today. The answers are: *if you have a COMPLETE older uniform, that you have purchased in parts or in whole, you may continue to wear that uniform as it is considered an official uniform of the BSA. Same goes for units whose members cannot afford the current uniform and have purchased/was given/found older uniforms. As long as the uniform is COMPLETE AND SERVICABLE, the BSA considers that uniform to be the same as the current uniform sold for retail *EVERYONE should be striving to wear the CURRENT COMPLETE UNIFORM. Yeah, the older uniforms were more confortable and fit better; but we're living in the 90s and not in the 60 or 40s, and our image to our public should in the current uniform style. However, there are plenty of older uniforms out there to be worn, and lots of Scouts and Scouters to wear them. The lack of a current uniform should NEVER deter a Scout or Scouter from becoming a part of the fun and action of Scouting today. *Hats and socks change with the times. However, those items are still allowed to be worn with the current uniform as long as there's some uniformity within those choices and as long as the items can still be obtained. There's some uniform houses that still have the red beret or the older khaki "earmuff hats" around...you'll have to find them and purchase them, since the BSA no longer markets those items. Same with the older socks and other uniform items. *BSA uniform policies does NOT allow for "mixing and matching" of new and previous versions of uniform parts, except for hats, neckerchiefs and socks. Old pants cannot be worn with the current khakitan uniform shirts; the older shirts cannot be worn with the current olive pants or shorts. We all do it....but it's not correct. The reference to all of this is found in several places, to start out, the BSA's Administration Manaul that your Council's Scout Executive and every District Executive has. It's also found in three different editions of _Scouting_ magazine, published in 1976, again in 1987 and once again in 1993 in the "News Briefs" column. It's also found in the BSA publications dealing with the Improved Scouting program; and finally, the Supply Division Director has sent five memos to the field in the past seventeen years reminding Scout Executives of the BSA's current policy dealing with uniforms and uniformity among its youth and adult members.

Thanks, for that great deal of information. I had thought it was further back when they material was cut in half, but that explains alot. I think the amount of fabric involved will be the issue, for the troop leadership, and as I mentioned, I'm still on the outside of actually having much say in how they do things, other then this crossover for our Webelos. I think all of the pictures I have seen of older scout uniforms look so great because the neckerchief is full, and not just a uniform accent. Maybe I can have her make a few like that, and see how it looks... I like the larger size, as well, for something that clearly has more functional uses, the larger it goes. The two color triangle is a nice idea, as well. How did they transition that? Was it two different pieces of fabric, sewn together? Thanks, again. Wallace P3CM-T3ASM

My son's Webelos II den will be crossing over into an old (1938, 2nd oldest troop in the State) local troop that is in serious need of new leadership. I was informed by my DE that we should consider this troop for many reasons, along with that obvious one. I plan to take over the CC postion, next summer, and my Cubmaster replacement at the pack will follow a year later to take over the SM position. When I asked about a troop neckerchief for the crossover (next month) the troop committee informed me they had been using a custom, hand made neckerchief that was now down to one, unissued, neckerchief, which they have been hanging onto, even though they have several newer scouts in the troop, who have not been issued one. We talked about how many should be made, and I agreed to find a way to make it happen. I know it will be important for the crossover, and my very talented sister will do just about anything for her nephew. This neckerchief is based upon the half of a 32" square (triangle) that is the standard size. In doing some research, I realize the actual, original, neckerchief was a 32" square shape, that was folded diagonally in half, to be worn. Since we will be making these from scratch, I am wondering if there is a reason why we could not go with the original, square neckerchief, which certainly has alot more uses in theory, and would just be more connected to the original reasons it was added to the uniform in the first place, according to research. I know I'm not currently in any official, troop leadership position, but nobody was able to solve this neckerchief problem and there is no reason it can't be done, with a full 32" square or the triangle from half of that. I obviously have a strong interest in history, from my architectural training, but realize there may be more to this. I thought I would float the idea, here, before putting it out to the committee and the CM, of which the CC and the CM are going to be gone, sometime next year. They know I am the lead replacement for the troop, but will be very careful not to appear disrespectful. I have already come up with a crossover ceremony for our Webelos utilizing this double, inverted tripod, pioneering structure they have been building as a part of their more important troop meetings, of which they were impressed with the model I built, and had no problems with the design of the ceremony. I guess I like a design challenge, since this has become a big part of my time as of late. When did BSA go away from the full 32" square neckerchief in the first place?

Thanks, SemperParatus... PM sent. Wallace.

Our bear joined Tigers during the Spring roundup. He bridged to the Wolf den in May and went to Day Camp in June. He loved it all.. wearing his Wolf neckerchief over his camp tshirt. Last year he was one of 3 Wolf cubs, but his mother (his father is deceased) was without a car, or a recording machine on her phone, so she kept showing up for den meetings on the wrong days. That years Wolf den leader was a father who really did not want to fill the position, because of his other committments. Both of his kids both dropped out, after he had to leave his law practice and go on his own. This lone Bear did, however, get his Wolf, last year, but not until just before he bridged in May. Anything the Wolf den does will not be a repeat for him, in my opinion, and I have suggested to his mom who will have to be his Bear leader, that she will have to work with him, at home, to make sure he get's his bear requirements completed. She is still very unsure about what to do, and she is a bit forgetful (we gave her the new DL start up packet, with the fast start CD... and she said she never got it.) but I assured her I will make sure she get's trained and knows what she is doing. We have a boy in the Webelos I den who went thru both his Wolf and Bear years alone, but this year he finally has 2 denmates. His dad accepted the UC position, and I think these past 2 years woke him up to the need for him to get more active in recruiting for his sons den, as well as being more active in the pack. He will also have to take my CM position, after next February, so he will be wearing alot of hats... some on this board think perhaps too many.(This message has been edited by kahits)(This message has been edited by kahits)

In addition, for whatever it is worth... our pack is small (less then 25 boys), but he and I were asked to help one of the other local packs, who's leadership left with no one to step into the positions. The DE was recommending that if they could not get new leaders to volunteer, they would start coming to our pack and den meetings, until things improved. It showed me just how much a capable UC can do to help in these situations, and how much work he has cut out for him, in this one. I plan to try and help after the crossover to try and get them some den chiefs from the troop, and to maintain a connection for recruiting for Boy Scouts. This troop is right across the street from the middle school that both packs (mine and theirs) feed into. They need to build on that connection, or at least be more visible.

I guess I have to agree with you... and yes he is the UC for our pack as well. I think it did help him to take all of the work involved more seriously, but I do think he enjoys the silver loops for what they are. How all of that will help him, once he realizes how much work it will be to do both the DL and CM positions, I can't say. I know his UC connections will help, but he will still have to do the work, and this pack has always been lite on adult leaders. Too many single moms bringing their boys to the pack for some adult male mentoring and not enough of them willing to do much more then that. It all almost went under at the end of my first year as an untrained Tiger DL (the previous pack leadership were a husband and wife that did me no favors, in hindsight.), but our DE approached me at Day camp to ask if I would be interested in keeping the pack going. I ultimately said yes, but it's been hard these past 4 years, since nobody has been willing to do more then run a den meeting, and the committee has always been weak. I did make sure we sold popcorn (the previous leadership never did..) and we got a Pack flag, new PD track, instituted den flags, and I built a bridge (Steel and wood). I won't give the bridge to the pack, but the rest they can have, since most of it was paid for thru popcorn. Yeah, I'm ready for it to end.... but Boy Scouts is going to be fun, I keep telling myself. I should have several years before having to consider taking the SM position, and I'll do the other things to recruit more boys, and get the numbers back up in the younger ages. As for Venturing, that will have to be seen. There are not many crews in this part of town, but I hear there are attempts in the works. Originally, I was going to just have my son go to one of the larger Troops in the district, but I am realizing it would have been a mistake. Too much personality and politics and not dealing very well with some of the lack of values being exhibited by some of their senior scout leadership. It does help to spend time making connections (one of their scouts is the DC for my Webelos II den) and getting the real scoop on what is happening. I won't be stepping back with this crossover, but I won't be starting a crew anytime soon. I need to find one, between now and next July. Thanks, for your advice and comments...

You make some very good points, Bob.... most of the packs around the university are struggling, but the DE is committed to keeping that from happening. There just aren't any other packs that are close by, so we all try our best to get organized, trained, and do the best possible round up, in the fall and spring, with limited results. I am the CM and Webelos II DL, so all of that is going out the door at the B&G in Feb.06, but I'm trying to help these 2 dens to include the bear in with the wolf cubs, since that appears to be the only real option, or until more Bears can be recruited. It's early still, we could still get more boys. For now they are together, until they can become seperate. All your comments are appreciated. Wallace CM P3 DL WebII

Thank you all very much... just to clarify, our pack serves a college campus neighborhood (UNM) that has all the trappings of that kind of population (lots of single moms looking for adult male leadership...). It's a liberal elementary school, for sure, but the program still has a purpose. Dealing with the parents who can't quite embrace the perception of BSA, with a boy who can't wait to get in can be difficult, but I have learned to do whatever it takes to get that boy in the program, even if it means you get walked on by his Akela. We definitely have holes in the dens, but each year it seems to get a little bit better. My ACM took on the UC position last year, so he is going to be fine as my replacement in Feb. 06, but I'll check back from the troop that is also in the neighborhood. I hope we can provide them with some den chiefs. W.

Thanks, Bob.... I am looking forward to leaving the CS experience behind me. Having been the driving force to keep the Pack viable for the past 2 years, and this the 3rd year, February can't come soon enough. One of our den leaders volunteered for the Unit Commissioner position, so I think he is going to do fine as my CM replacement. The training will definitely work fine, and I am planning on taking Wood Badge, a year before the SM position opens up, after the ASM's who are ahead of me have had their opportunity. I have a 13 year old daughter, waiting for her 14th so she can join Venturing, so lots to look forward this next year. For now I can focus on some of the things that nobody has been making a priority, and will start with trying to get as many of my son's 4, Webelos II den mates to consider our cozy group of Scouts. W.

Thanks, ASM7... I will get the ASM training, in the very least, and won't be having to deal with the SM position for quite a while. Right now they need help in recruiting Webelos,and I have no intentions of having my son be alone in his age group. I was mentioned as a possible SM replacement from the DE, but there are other ASM's who can take point, while I get a better idea what the program entails. The AOL ceremony is the 29th of November, and that will give a few months for getting ready to crossover in February, and the Klondike towards the end of the month. Thanks, again. Wallace.

Hey, everybody... I'm now into my 5th year of Cub Scouts (First 3 years as Tiger, Wolf & Bear den leader, and last 2 as Cubmaster, one summer as day camp program director) and in February my son, Aidan, will be crossingover into Boy Scouts, with his first campout on top of Mt. Taylor (NM) for Klondike. He's still loves the program like the first day he made me take him to a Tiger Cub roundup. I grew up on the Standing Rock Sioux reservation in Ft. Yates, ND, where I went thru most of Cub Scouts (Wolf, Bear, Lion.. I think.), but lost track when we moved off the rez, and never got into Boy Scouts. I wish it had been different, but then now I have that chance I guess. My DE is trying to convince me to take over a troop that is mostly older boys, who have not been recruiting new scouts like they should have, but I have to admit, I do like what I saw at their open house. 65 years is a long time for any troop to exist, and alot of old style boy scouts still was evident. I'm getting alot of information from these forums, and will continue to as February approaches. Wish me luck! Wallace.

We have a small CS pack that currently has a Wolf den of 5 boys and a Bear den of one. I'm wondering what ideas or advice you all might have about how to go about doing this, and if it's advantageous? Thanks,