JustaHuman

(I don't know how to edit my post to add this in, so sorry for double post). QUOTE: Those are substantial changes. If you don't think those issues are substantial then join and listen respectfully if someone offers up a prayer or whatever. No different than if a Buddhist/Hindu/Jew was sitting in on a meeting and a Christian wanted to offer up a prayer. Pretty sure if Jesus was mentioned all 3 of those groups would be offended in some way or another, and likely even if he wasn't mentioned. Also, I've never been disrespectful in life when I've been around others who offer a prayer for whatever reason. I simply bow my head and don't say "Amen" at the end, and everything goes on just as merrily as it was before the prayer. To imply that atheists cannot/will not listen respectfully when someone prays is closed-minded. We even sing Jesus Christmas songs. Oh, the horror! (Jesus is to me as much as a god as Horus, Zeus, and Dioynous before him, so it really makes no difference to me what god we sing about, mythology is all the same.) I understand most atheists probably wouldn't want to sing about Zeus any more Jesus though. QUOTE: If acknowledging God is a big deal for you then you should understand that it's a big issue for BSA too. I understand it's a big issue for BSA (since LDS funds so much money to them and they're afraid they'll form their own non-BSA groups if BSA does the right thing here). I think it is very bigoted and will eventually be overcome (maybe not in a year or two, but I'd say someday). That's why I decided to voice my opinion, even if I'm just one person. I don't see how it's a big deal to let someone not say "in God" (or whatever), while you do say it. It seems like you guys could be happy and so could we and everyone's kids could be enriched. I guess I'm just less judmental of others beliefs when they differ from mine. QUOTE: Far more important to BSA is recruiting more Hispanics, Asians and other minorities. That's where the real potential membership numbers are. Aren't most Asians Buddhist/Hindu or some other Asian religion? (I ask honestly as I don't know the stats for Asians in America off the top of my head). If so the same Christian prayer offered could still be an issue, even though BSA claims to be inclusive of them. Also, I know many Asians are non-believers (in other countries it's pretty common) so I'd assume they would be here too (I could be wrong). QUOTE: The smart move is to ignore the slight impact the homosexual/atheist issue has on membership in favor of concentrating on the Hispanic/Asian/minority populations where the REAL potential members are. Great way to teach kids values, only focus on the money bringers, and not the humanist values (of acceptance)!

QUOTE: "Unfortunately, you have no concept of personal liberty. It's vitally important that private organizations be able to establish an agenda of values a group represents and to admit people who share those values." That's the same as saying that a private organization has the same rights to exclude black people today as they do atheists (or gays). It's as simple as that. If the private ball club wants to exclude a few black people because they're against they're views then you know they'd be bashed all over the news. In some time, it will be the same for organizations that are bigoted against religion (or lack of) and sexual orientation. Maybe it'll take a while, but it will eventually happen. Whether or not BSA is a follower or leader in that event stands to be seen. Blacks had a rough time getting America to see they are equal and shouldn't be allowed to be banned by even private organizations, just as gays and non-religious people are having a hard time now. But blacks overcame, and so will atheists and gays.

BadenP says: "No one, especially Christians should take the rules in Leviticus literally, they were written by men, not ordained from God, for a different time and a different people. At best they supply a historical content of the ancient Hebrew culture. Exodus was the story of Gods covenant with the Jewish people which was replaced by Jesus Christs birth, teachings, and ultimate sacrifice for all humanity." And then: "I guess you missed the points I was trying to make to you about taking certain pieces of the Bible out of context and too literally. " So it's ok to take some parts of the Bible (the parts that benefit you, or that YOU WANT TO FOLLOW) literal, and disregard the parts that you don't want to follow or don't benefit you? You do realize the exact same "logic" you applied here for the book of Leviticus can be applied just as easily to the whole New Testament right? "Christians shouldn't take the New Testament literally as they were written by men, not ordained from God, for a different time and a different people." You said it, I just substituted Leviticus for New Testament, and it's just as valid a statement as you just made for Leviticus. If you really think Jesus (or people who actually knew him) wrote down, word for word what he said a few hundred years after he died, you should read this: http://www.pocm.info/pagan_ideas_dreams.html

QUOTE: "Yep, that's how the LDS views them too. Took my daughter selling cookies door-to-door one year in my neighborhood...every LDS household slammed the door in her face, one telling that she (my 8 yo daughter) supported abortion because she was in GS." WOW. It's surprising because we get LDS people knocking at our door many times a year trying to force their religion down our throats. (Seriously, they won't leave when I say no nicely.) Amazing how they can be so door-to-door pushy but they can be that mean to little kids who are basically doing the same thing. GS selling cookies to LDS = LDS person rudely comments and/or slams door in kids face because GS has beliefs they don't have. Next Day- That same LDS person walking door-to-door trying to push their beliefs down everyone else's throat. Hypocritical much?

Hello all. I'm new but please hear me out as I read as a guest and felt like I had something to offer here. I'm an atheist parent of a child who is in scouts. I'm a little surprised at the animosity displayed towards atheists here (or rather, at the judgements placed on what atheists want to do to scouts.) QUOTE: "If I were an atheist, I would know I'd be uncomfortable in... or even a program of ethical uplift. I wouldn't join." You really think atheists aren't ethical? Seriously, do you envision us raising our kids to be little hellions with no morals? WRONG. We have morals and ethics, just without the need of a god to make us do so. QUOTE: "I think: (a) what gives an atheist the "right" to enter an organization in an effort to substantially change it?" What gives an American organization the right to ban people because they're different? AND we don't want to change it substantially. Just for our kids to be treated fairly and allowed to join without saying God (as I make very clear in the rest of my post). QUOTE: "(b) does not such an atheist disrepect the rights of those who are in the organization and support its goals?" We don't disrespect it at all. We respect it enough to want to join (minus the discrimination). QUOTE: "Compromise is not allowing atheists to have it all their own way.. " ------Who said we want to? We ***can't even join*** unless we pretend or else we get booted. We just want to join and have fun with our kids. We want BSA to change to let us join. Just join and participate without being excluded or judged. We'll do the same (not judge) you. Not make you NOT say something if you don't make us SAY it. We simply want to *join* scouts and be a part of it. We don't want or need to change anything about it *except its intolerance* towards people with different beliefs. This is not much different that a black person in the 50s wishing they could be allowed to use the same bathrooms as whites. Should they just be forced to use the "color" bathrooms (or use a smaller, not-as-good restaraunt that has inclusive bathrooms) since the other restaraunt discriminates against them, or speak out because it's wrong? I think we all know the right answer here. Same with scouts and atheists. Why should we be forced to use a smaller, not-as-good organization (spiral/earth scouts) because yours discriminates against us? We teach morals and values that aren't very different at all from yours, with one exception: the lack of belief in a god(s). That doesn't make us bad people nor does it give you a right to ban us from their organization no more than if you wanted to ban African Americans. We want to *simply join* your group. Not take the word God out of the promise. You and your kids can say one little sentence and we won't, is that really such a big deal? I don't care (and most atheists wouldn't) to simply ignore that sentence and let everyone else go along saying it. **It's you guys who are totally opposed to someone NOT saying that sentence.** It really doesn't phase us that you believe. It just bothers you that we don't. QUOTE: "Wow. Hope this movement stays over there, and does not make inroads into the USA. There are so many other similar groups to GUSA and BSA that it seems silly perople can't find an alternate that does not require the oath to God." Yes, we (atheists) want to join BSA. It's a pretty nice thing for our kids too for the most part. Our kids are just regular kids who want to be in on the fun BSA has to offer. The other scout-like options are smaller and much harder to find groups of locally (for myself and many others). Where I live our Boy Scout troop is very small; I can't imagine trying to start a group that has little name recognition here. So yes, BSA is desirable. I just want my kid to have fun camping and hanging out with other kids too. Is that so much to ask? And yes, we're in scouts even though we disagree with some of its values. It's sad we have to hide like to this for fear of "being found out". It really is sad in this day and age and in America. ----And my last point: There are more and more atheists in America now. Same with gays. Maybe BSA is losing membership numbers because of intolerance? Not only atheists and gays won't support BSA due to its discrimitory policy, but also freethinking religious people who stand up for the rights of everyone. Those 3 groups of Americans (atheists, gays, and freethinking religious) form a pretty large chunk of Americans, and many are young families with kids. It's now more known about the BSAs intolerance, and maybe many are turned off by it? Or they join and then later find out about it and then quit? (I didn't know about it previous to joining, but discovered after research online). That's long. If you read it all, kudos to you. If not, I hope you will someday and really think about how maybe atheists aren't all bad (we're not really), and how it wouldn't be the end of the world for you or BSA to let us have some camping fun too.