juris

To CNYC Scouter: I not sure what rights you have ?And, I see you are trying to get opinions from Scouters like me , Bob and etc. There is no such thing as a perfect formula. Even the BSA,Inc. does not have one. Read my profile ! I've beem 30 years active in Scouting, had 90 boys in the Troop, had 20+ Eagle scouts. (which is not much, according to BSA standards). Some principals I adhered to: " What is more important to have EAgles, or keep the boy longer in Scouting program ? " What use are the character building and citzenship, if the individual leaves Scouting under a year. Ranks are only incentives for the boys to pursue, the same as grades in school. It is the fellowship,Leadership, and learning new things. Yes, you can get some of these virtues in other organizations, but they will not be as good as Scouting. The problem is not with the dedicated volunteer leaders, It's with National Council ill perception of what " PADEN POWELL' basic principals are. Sorry, to get so over involved. Juris, www

Anita of Indspls, (WADAWHOOT) I am proud of your reasoning, In my past scouting experience I had mothers just like you, and they were of a dremendous help. Don't get out of your Troop. Stay and organize a mother's auxilary, help raise "petty cash " for the SM, or set up a fund to buy uniforms to your needy boys, "by cake sales, raffles, or a bingo". (Not approved by the BSA,INC....) You don't have to register, and pay fee's to the BSA )That money you would be saving. I am rewarding you, Anita with the 'SCOUTING MOTHER'S AWARD OF THE YEAR ' Juris,WWW.

One way to help a troop is to stay away from the leadership of the Troop, but support it financially. Don't be a nagging critic. A patrol method only works, if you have 20+ members. Otherwise, it's better to run it as a Troop. Later, when membership increases, you can experiment with patrols. I had in my unit 6 to 7 Patrols ( 8-10 boys) And a reserve patrol of new scouts (with an assigned PL ), they would be intergrated into a regular patrol that lost a scout.Some times the PL would invite the new boy to join his gang.Or, I would place him, depending on the circumstance. DAN and the NYSCOUTER , I wish you lots of luck, in your Scouting trail. Juris.WWW

I have been in NYC, and they have large and well run Troops., and sometimes they have not conformed to the methodology of BSA.Inc. But I would suggest go for the Wood Badge Program ( pay them $ 150 )( nothing is free in this world )You will learn something new. Camping trips on monthly basis is great for the boys. They get a chance to get away from mother's shoe strings and father's observation., and learn independence.( not taught in training courses ) Keep father's in support mode., and away from their own kids. If to many fathers are around, the fatherless boys feel bad and left out. The only father figure in the troop should be the SM. Mission statements looks good on paper swhen the Council collects money for themself.Scouting ideals are installed by example and motivation of Scout leaders.Uniforming is shown by example. Even the commiteemen, and Scouters should wear their uniform on all scout functions. To stimulate the wearing of the uniforms., I had a Marine in full dress, and a baseball player come to our meeting./ They talked of the importance of a uniform,the pride, and the the identity it generated. Also, our mother auxilary collected used and purchased uniforms for our needy Scouts.At parents night we showed off our past pictures of our scouts in uniform .We had monthly inspection where we would give out certificates and awards. Such as camping equipment and etc. I am glad that you have still interest in Scouting. One point I want to stress is (THERE ARE TWO FORMS OF SCOUTING.....THE PROFFESIONAL, who are paid, and THE VOLUNTEER SCOUTER, who toil for the love of SCOUTING. Juris

To NY Scouter,GNYC has some great training sessions,go and learn something new in Scouting. But keep an open mind.Patrol method is a good concept, BUT NEEDS CLOSE SUPPERVISION AND TRAINED ADULT GUIDANCE. Otherwise it's a disorganised bunch of kids running around in a circle. Try to recruit young ASMs ( ex scouts )that don't have their son's in the Troop (1) They most likely stay longer in the Troop (2) They might like the Scouts and the program, and would make good mentors. Many fathers are forced into Scouting, and they try to get the heck out of it, as soon as they can. When you get this new leader, stay out of his way, and let him and the boys run the troop.( if it is successful, and the boys are happy ) But support it financially. I used to invite MB counselors to come to my unit and have their presentatiion for 15 to 20 minutes,so they can sign up the Scouts.He would hold meetings at his home or after the Troop session. " Keep it simple, and make it fun" Juris.

Scout "Beavah" I certainly would like to have you in my unit, if I still were a SM. But, I am retired. You have a very understanding SM,who knows how to guide you to be successfull unit. Give him 3 cheers.In my past experience at PLC meetings, we sometimes had a lot of suggestion and motions. Once every thing was done, it was my job to make sure all our small and high adventure was put into action by our committee. I we failed, then no one could blame the jr. leaders for it. Some times, the adults try to blame plc council for failurs. This never happened in my prevous unit. Thanks in supporting my ideas. Remember my motto " Keep it simple, make it fun "

BW, I can attest that XRay, is correct. I have suspected some the things he mentioned going on in my council. But, as you know in the old days we had no forum, Just ROUND TABLE to voice our concerns. We were listened to, and then ignored. When I used to follow up on it later, I was pacified, and told it will be taken care off. But it was not. See the shortcomings that was created by the proffesionals in the BSA.INC. Here is to Scouting.Juris. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

JKHNY, i SEE YOU HAVE SCOUTING AT HEART,LIKE ALL OF US. You are hundred percen correct. We have to sweep all those non profesioanal premodanas out of service. Return scouting to the boys and the strugling Scoutmasters. I suggest that Scoutmaster's ( they are the most that care )should be on the board of directors, and not glory seeking exec's of telephone,automotive and oil companies. The Scouter magazine and boys life, should be edited by Scoutmasters. The articles should be scout motivated, and not turned into a teenage magazine. I never seen an article in the Scouter where they talked about the discrepencies in Scouting nor the scantal with the phony numbers. I feel the magazine in not for us, but only for the profesionals. Let's take SCOUTING back where it belongs, with the adult leaders in Scouting.Juris.

I agree with PNscouter, it is not overall numbers, it's quality of the scout program. I found out long ago, that you have to provide an exciting,challenging,adventures, fun loving program with good trained leadership, in order to keep the boy in scouting for many years. I am not going into the details at this time but, you can read "Juris" statements on some of the posts." keep it simple, make it fun " Some of the Scouting concepts have to be overhauled. Here is to Scouting. Juris.

For thirty years , (us Scouters) have seen this happening, and most of us brought this up at Round tables, council meeting, but were just ignored. We, the old timers,did not want to smear our organization negatively, there fore we never brought this internal matter to the media. This is what I mean, when they don't let active 'SCOUMASTERs' be part of the governing boards of the BSA inc.Real SMs would never allow such un ethical practices to continue and would institute policies to benefit the Troops.Juris

Sorry, I have received 85 hits on my computer to reply to you concerns, of how to run a successful boy scout troop. Many of you are in agreement of my concept, and many of you disagree. At least I got you thinking about our problem we have with National theory of running " a boy run unit, with adult guidance " I also received comments from the "proffesional's which spewed the standard concepts, of which many of them out in the left field. I have to delede most of your commnts. I realy stirred up a hornets nest. Let's open your minds, and see for your self what works, and which concepts should be discarded. Juris.

My Scouters: I am trying to answer all of your questions and comments on my concepts of running a successful Troop...but I am overwhelemed. There are many of you who are in support of my ideas. I am glad that you have an open mind. One thought for you at this time ," What is more important, to adhere strictly to some useless BSA concepts,and have a small unit, or work to increase your Troop size, so you can teach the basic principles of Scouting , to more boys ? " ..."Keep it simple, and make it fun " Juris.

Why, what's wrong with that ? You see we are braught up with our "quaker" mentality, to keep sexes apart when they are tenagers. ?That's because our sociaty corrupted it self, by permiting sexual implied comercials, songs and pornographical literature for every one to purchase and see. This idea of co-ed Scouting fears all got changed, when I went to Sweden. Their Scouting is a joint venture with boys and girls. Their councils run jointly not seperaterd as ours. Their camps are organized together. They camp as a unit, with girls in one tent, and boys in an other. I also noticed that some times girls encampedment was over a stream. The women leaders would look after the girls, and the men after the boys.The adult female and male leaders stayed in one six person army tent. where I atayed. ( guess, what ? I did not get married, ha,ha,) I noticed that some senior girls were patrol leaders of a boy patrol, and a senior boy in charge of girl patrol, or vica versa. The co-ed Scout unit conducted all normal activities, day and evening without any problems, that I have observed. The adult leaders invited me to local restaurant for a beer. I asked that same questions that worries all of our skeptical American leaders, "Is their any hanky panky going on at camp ? " Never!!!!....maybe when they get home, but that is not our responsibility". One male adult leader said that., you in the States are over sexed, and our scouts are taught to respect sex. Will we have ,co-ed Scouting ?, it will only happen when Girls Scout of America get integrated together with Boy Scouts of America. My conlusion " the train will never meet " Juris. P.S. Go to Sweden and observe for your self.

Dear vexed,annoyed and upset Scouter, You are not the only on who has obsered this practice for thirty years+.I personally brought this up to my council many times without much success. I did not want to present this concern to the media, for it would give a bad name to the organization. The reason we are losing scouts, it that our methodology of training is way off the mark. Yes, I had the same problems, as other units that conformed 100 % to the principles and methods in running the swcout unit, then I realised that it just did not work. I lost many members, I made a 180 deg. turn about, and then my unit grew to 90 members, and achieved 20+ eagle scouts. When my unit was this big, I had community power, I would get together with coaches of basketball,ping pong, bowling and etc.,negotiated with them, not to have their meetings to conflict with ours and our camping dates. I told them how important it is to have Scouting in our community , and that I could not release my scouts to participate in outside activitities. (We were the ONLY boy scout unit in the neighborhood)I explained to them that a Scout made an oath, and he had to live up to it.(active in Scouting )that was his priority, I asked the coaches if my boys made any promise to them ?.And that is the difference. Majority of them cooperated, and we had a good relationship. Many times, they 've asked us to provide them with a color guard for their opening ceremony. By the way, due to the fact that we had 20 scouts on a waiting list to join, the BSA council forced me to downsize, and they created two more troops in the same area. Then my numbers got reduced, and I did not have that influence over the coaches, and we started to lose our athletic kids to other activities. BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA HAS TO GET IT'S ACT TOGETHER, AND STOP BEING A BUSINESS,but A PROGRAM FOR THE NATIONAL YOUTH. Amen.

Scouter Bob, You seem to be in Scouting for a while, and that is great. You have to agree, that BSA training, example the woodbadge is a bit out of date and are out of touch with our modern world. Therefore the current SM has to use his imagination and new resources to keep his scouts enthusiastic and modivated. The best and simple application I used is " USE IT IF IT WORKS, OTHERWISE DELETED " See if this concept will work in your troop. Juris

What is your position in the Troop ? The Troop is run by the SM and the Spl. Not the commitee nor didgrunted fathers, WHO don't like what they see. My suggestion is that all the ADULT leaders, (not the commitee), get together and trash this problem out, and then back the Scoutmaster.ALL DISGRUNTED INDIVIDUAL STAY OUT OF THE WAY. AND GIVE THE VOLUNTEER SCOUTMASTER A CHANCE TO RUN THE TROOP, WHITHOUT 'TOM AND DICK AND HARRY INTERFERING ' AMEN.

Dear K, Being in Scouting for 38 years, and having a Troop of 90 scouts once for three years. Let me give you some concepts which you can take and use it.1...Like scouting and your boys. 2...Choose your commitee and not your commitee choosing you. Three member commitee all you need to be legal. The rest of father and mothers don't have to be registered members, ( make them auxilary )3...Run your Troop on 10 month basis ,with monthly themes made up by your PLC , and not the BSA ones.Monthly overnights with Summer Camp for two weeks, and four day Winter Camp between Christmas and New Year. (With good cabin facity available just in case of severe weather conditions ). Pick and suggest a Senior Patrol Leader, to the PLC who you notice has the leadership qualities you are looking for, not who is easy going and popular (This is not a political election )( remember you have a veto power on any thing that concerns the troop )4...Make sure your weekly meetings are full of action, chalenge and instructions," keep it simple and make it fun "( and not only knot tying).5...Don't overload your yearly schdule with stupid activities,( as quartely camporee, food drives, highway or park clean ups, or councils financial drives and etc..)6...Raise your own money for your Troop and only give 10% to the BSA. 7...You as the Scoutmaster select Asst. S.M.'s, who you think will be compatible to the Scouting program. ( and not necerally father's) Some college and ex. eagle scouts make very good assistants) And let your three man commitee rubber stamp it,so it conform's with the BSA bylaws.8...Send your leaders to training courses, but let them only use the concepts which are workable, the rest discard. 8...Be very persoanable with your scouts and open to suggestion from all who are concerned, but choose only the ideas that you think will work. ( Scouting is not a laborotory, but a methodoly, that works if you apply it correctly)9...Conduct twice a year surveys from parents and scouts so you can improve your program. WELL, THAT'S ENOUGH OF MY WISDOM, AND I WILL STOP BRAGING. YOURS IN SCOUTING. JURIS

Let's leave religious fanatics out of Scouting ! The Scout Law should not identify your faith or your loyalty to a nation. I agree, it should just include " Good moral standing " and "citizenship." Religion should be left in the religious institutions, to worship as the scouts parents want him to worship. If a church wants to award a religious scouting award, that choice should be available. You must remember that all religious traditions are man made, let them keep it in their domain, and don't force a naive kid of eleven to recite and promise which he can not comprehend the concepts of faith. ( former Eagle Scout,Scout exec, Scoutmaster, Chairman and etc. ) I say amen.