juris

We in Scouting are all glad that this boy has been found. In my days of scouting we did not tie our boys with a buddy system. Only at the waterfront and when the boys took solo hike, and they had to have a strong walkie talkie with them so they could communicate with home base.I have a few questions to pose for you. a...was the boy 10 1/2 or younger (some parents forged their son's age so the boy could go to a camp free ) Was he mature to undertake staying at a rugged camp ? Why was he allowed to use the climbing tower at age 10 1/2. I remember they had to be 14, Have rules changed ? I suspect the boy was homesick and that is why he walked west from camp. I think he knew very well where his campsite was. When I had a home sick boy , I always had some one, for nothing better then to cheer him up. Why did the Troop notice his disapearance so late, close to darkness. Where was the Camp Staff immediately not searching for the boy. Why was not the loud speaker system not used to play music or call out his name ? Looking at the TV news, I feel this boy could have have some emotional problems, maybe with his parents, who just wanted to get rid of him, so they can have their own vacation ? Thanks for the media, or otherwise we would have never found this out. ( Where was out training commitee on aims and concepts of Scouting. Juris,www ( SM for 30+ years )

This is a DISCLAIMER. ( p0st # 41 ) I never wrote that article..."Leave religious fanatics out of Scouting " I am very upset over this ! (@#%$^&+ ) Could some one have used my secret ID, to write this ? Here are some of my reasoss why it is not mine : 1...It has Good grammer and spelling.( I can't write nor spell correctly ) 2...I never claimed to be a former Eagle Scout, nor A Scout executive. ( I did mention in some other format that I worked proffesionaly ) 3...I am a religious person, but I would never write this . 4...I sign all my statements with ( juris,www ) and this one is not signed with my logo. Would the moderator, or the cencor investigate this. Thanks, Juris,www

Scouter 9933,(HG-Chicago ) I am sorry to hear that you are losing boys. That sort of proves that there is some sort of problem in your unit ?. Instead of asking the SM to resign, maybe you should consider leaving the committee ? This is one way, that the present SM ,can choose people for his committee ,who would be amiable to his concepts and ideas of making his troop grow.? It seems to me that all the training of the "Aims & methods" will not work unless you have the subtantial numbers of boys in the unit. I am sorry ,I am not 95 years in Scouting, but only 38. Otherwise you can call me " Baden Powell" (ha,ha,) Juris,www

Semper paratus Scouter, I heard this claim " You don't need to be in Scouting....."I've heard this at numerous Training courses, and at Proffesional Executive Seminars. That you don't need to be in Scouting, or know anything of Scouting. to be a successful ...We can teach and train you in becoming a Scoutmaster. Of course, charecter and enjoyment of the youth is an important factor. This is a recruitment ploy to get the hesitant volunteers to sign up.,to become Scoumaster's.This is one of the reason's ,why many boys quit Scouting., because they are told your SM does not have to know, it's the scouts who run the troop ? In my experience they should target mostly those who had Scouting experience to run a unit.My personal observation. Juris.www

I agree with most of your assesment, :PRARIE SCOUTER:!....Back ground in Scouting, working with youth, is a big plus being a good Scout leader. You are the exception,....charector is a given,.Congratulations!. You are just like I used to be . You had the proper training.,Therefore I assume you are now running an outstanding unit. Practically speaking, I found that the majority of commitees, do not know to much of the operation of the unit.nor Scouting. And, they should not act as supervisor's in you running the boy program. The accountability role is dedicated to your unit commisioner ,when he visits your unit to see your camping record, your growth in membership, your scout advancement, and casuel discusion with boys to see if they are happy in the Troop. The commitee role is in logistics and in support of the program. Usually no one knows best the needs of the Troop, then the dedicated adult leaders. Some times you don't have to ask a father to leave the commitee. I had a very cooperative team of fathers and the chairman ,who were in supporting our unit. It's good that you have an open mind. juris,www

Scouter ;SP540BEAVER', I had to chuckle when you reffered to me as a 'FAT OLD GUY ', beleive me I never have been, nor am I now fat..How can one be in Scouting and be fat ? that's if your are not active, and sit around watching TV, To the last days as SM, I still hiked and camped with younger scouts. But the high adventure activities were carried out by my youthful ASM's. Have you been at camporees and seen how many of our scouters are fat, and out of shape,( Not taught in training courses. (ha,ha)Well that's Scouting, this is the way a song goes " we have fat one's, skiny one's, we're going out to eat worms "ha,ha,It's good that some of you have some humor left in you. Yours in Scouting, juris, www

BBNG SCOUTeR is correct when he quated Lynda's father. I never lectured any of other leaders how they should run their units. I was the quite type, only some new and old SM's could never figure out why I had a successful program. And I would say to them "you have to know scouting...take training course and find out," But they could never duplicate my success , becouse they don't teach that at those courses.Since I retired, I don't mind shaking my feathers a bit. Juris,www

To my scouter friend, Ed Mori. Troop # 1.I used to know a unit # 1....They had the best troop. I think they were the first in the Council, maybe the nation, They had a diesel bus, ( against bsa policy), fund raising where the entire town participated.( ex cluded the council, which is against the by laws of BSA ), had a membership of 80+, Had their own Scout building (against BSA )this is where the cub scouts and boy scouts met, and this where they kept their equipment.Their had an alumni association of former Scouts, and parent auxialry . The leaders that I spoke said, the reason they have this successful model type program, is because they stayed as far as they could from the Council. The commisioner was a member of the unit, since he had boy in it., You are right, when you can't figure out some the members on this forum. Don't worry they are trying to burry me for my contreversial views.Keep learning, and stay in Scouting for there is no better organization for young people, with such dedicated adults. Juris, www.

I appreciate "Prairy Scouter's" support of most of my views, "Bob White" I apalogize using your name on this forum without your permission.PS, I am glad that you have an open mind. I just want to bring a situation I heard on one of our roundable's....This Scoutmaster ran fairly good troop in my opinion, but had an antigonistic commitee who were determined to get rid of him. He fought, and got the commisioner involved. Well, they succeeded. The new SM, knew nothing of running a unit, nor had the spirit of Scouing ,but promised to take training course, Within a few month the parents with drew their sons from the unit and transferred them to another unit. That's why I say, make sure the commitee is on your side. " Keep it simple make it fun " Committee is their to help you make the program work, and not act as overseers. Juris,www

Well, thanks . You realy know how to crucify an old timer who is not in step with your oppinions. I speak from experience. I know it is contreversial ...but that is how I see it from many years of being a SM of one of the largest units in the Council, and maybe the nation. Read my provile, and my post to "Dan K " The wood badge I took in London did not asign numbers, but names. So . don't try to discredit me. Maybe I am a bit sinile, please forgive me.But, if you don't agree with me that BSA, Inc. is there to make money. Find out for yourself. The legend of the old time scouters are dying. It's the new breed that has to carry the ball. I wish you a good journey in Scouting, and we will meet again in that wonderfull heavenly campsite .I will put on my silent key. I will not disturb you any more with my contreversial ideas, Juris,( www, (ex member of the order of the arrow )

My dear Souters: some of you missed my point ? " Cub Scouting is not good in furthering our Scout Movement ." I showed you just one of example, there are more, Maybe some one else will point that out.BSA, Inc, runs many youth programs, such as Scout Troops,venture units,explorers. OA chapters, and etc. But they are not the original concept of what Baden Powell created. Souting was boys from 12 to 17 years of age. Then BSA,Inc. decided to expand it's program not for the sake of the youth welfare,but so they can make more money.At roundable and campouts we joke some times ,that soon they will be taking boys who are still in diabers and making them into Scouts, (ha,ha) When cub scouting start using Troop programs, then there are no reason for that boy to join a bonefide Troop.That's how we lose membership, To 'SCout Nut " You did try to have an open mind. The boys that joined at that time, were not associated with Cubing program. I realise then and now ,that the age is 10 1/2 . Sorry to say Cubbing is not Scouting. We just belong to BSA,Inc. that is running the program. I improved the recruiting program by asking my high ranking scouts to serve as Den Leaders in the Packs, so they can influence the Cub scouts to join the best troop in the district. I also found that Cubs learned a lot of the skills very poorly. We had to re learn them all over, to qualify for their scouting advancement. Many boys were questening my PL's and SPL, why can't they use the cubbing badges instead ? Madkins 007: I am glad you see it my way. I am not trying to get rid of Cubbing program, but one wonders why all of them don't join a Boy Scout Troop ??????? RONO.....That's what is confusing, they allready thought they were in a Boy Scout Troop, so why should they join?,Since the Pack already provided the same program.Rono..., I would gladly give you my former Unit number,Ditrict, and council. So you can go and research it for authenticy. But that would not prove anything. All it would is create more contrevercy.Take some training courses, so you can be more informed. But, my advice is don't ask these questions at the training courses or roundables, because you will be rediculed by the 'numskulls' who run them. Amen, Juris,www. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Don't get shocked when I point out to you that in some instancies, Cub Scouting was not good in furthering our Scout movement. Example: On one my of recruitment projects I was allowed, with the school principle's permission, to go to each class to recruit new boys into Scouting. I asked "how many boys are in Scouting ? Ten boys raised their hands. They could not have been eleven. That puzzled me.? So Asked them what Troop they belonged.?They said " we're in Boy Scout pack 24, "oh well"I said "that is great, then you will be joining Boy Scouts ? "Oh no, we did camping, canoeng, knot tying, cooking and earned all the awards,and we had den mothers as leaders.we know what scouting is all abaut I tried to reason and show the difference, but they were set in not joining BSA .Ruined by the cubbing program. Ten boys who were not in Cub Scouting did join, later. .I still was able to get from the weblows , 6 boys to join our Troop due to units strong reputation. Juris, www

Scouter wants to know what secrets.we have in Scouting, well many There are secrets in the Disdrict/ local councils,regions, and on national levels. We only find out about them is in the news print, if you are lucky enough. There are two division of Scouting. The volunteers and the proffesionals. Most of the volunteers Scouters know more abaut Scouting movement then the paid proffesionals. There is a continues rift between these two elements of the organization.The proffesionals use their laws and by laws which they wrote without the consent of Scouters, but the Scouters live and use the Scout law. And you ask if there are secrets? Keep learning and ask questions.Juris PS...Read some of my other comments in the forum

I certainly would not choose you as a direct leader with boys in my Troop. It's not the council/national that has the say but the commitee with the consent of the SM. There are Leaders who are serial killers, petifiles, and child abusers who got into scouting with out detection.Scouting program needs thes safe guards to protect our children. As mentioned there are other jobs, on psid proffesional level that you might get in .But as a vulenteer leader is out of the question. Juris, www

GNY Scouter, It sounds like you were in my Troop ? Did you participate in our trip to a Canadian Boy Scout camp, or a trip to Camp Delatour, Colorado or our scout exchange program to Europe, or International Jamboree in Canada ? Well, if you did, then you understand what makes up a successful unit. Don,t misunderstand me, I had problems with my unit. Once, we told the Patrol leaders to plan a menu, and shop for food . Well, everything went wrong...the PL's thought the Troop was going to cook the meals. So no one bought any food. On the day of departure at our Troop bus ( against BSA,Inc. policy to have properties registered to the Troop )We had to solve the problem.( many adults scouters suggested I cancell the trip to teach the boys a lesson [recomended on one of my training courses ]....But, I dis agreed with this punative measure. Right on the street we held an emergency PLC meeting to solve the problem. It was decided un route to our mountain camps, that we stop at a supermarket, and the patrols purchase their food, which they planned on the bus. The I (Scoutmaster) paid out of my emergency $ 500 petty cash, to make this trip for 35 kids a success. They all talk about it to this day, that the three day mountain encampment was the best. Yes, Scouting does work...but has to have an open mind, and decide what is best for your unit. Don't have a committee debating sociatey like the UN, where seldom anything constuctive ever done, " keep it simple, make it fun " Remember "Baden Powell" Scouting, did not have sofhisticated training courses, high paid National executive staff,...but boys were happy in the Scouting program. Thanks supporting me. Juris

Fellow Scouter's--Dan k,cny scouter,JD, ed Mori,Prairy Scouter,deavah, Bob White and etc. I hate to say I agree with most of you. I am also glad to know many Scouters see my point of view. Check the 9 points, I outlined to "Dan K "(What made my Troop a success. I have a very good backgrounf in Scouter training programs, such WB at Gillwell Park,(UK),Staff training,Provisional SM training, Scout exchange programs, international scout camp staff training at Kandersteg, Switzerland, and etc.You see BSA,Inc.claims they can train any one to become a leader of boys ? WRONG ! He atleast should have been a Boy Scout, and enjoyed Scouting. He should not be neccerily a father, but he should enjoy being with kids. Training is important, but he should be willing to see if all the consepts are workable. Try to increase your membership of the unit by successful recruiting.Some of the council's recruiting practices outlined from the national council are useless.SM should select his ASM, and not the commitee choosing him. SM should select his commitee chairman, that is going to work with you, even if you make mistakes. Keep a commitee small ( 4 to 6).Insdead create an auxialary team( supervised by an ASM ) of dedicated fathers, who will help you with some of the logistics. A large commitee becomes a debating sociaty, and many times interferes with Troop's program. Don't let your overninght activities get over saturated with scout dads. Boys want to get away from their parents, at least on the week ends.Oh, here I go again writing a book ! If you want to know my other thinking on this subject, read my 'post'" Keep it simple, make it fun " Juris, www.

To Scouter Dan K.I agree many of the things your are saying in Theory. It seems to me you are against the leaders that deviate from the so called " Scouting grogram " You don't want them to think for themselves, and only be spoon fed the BSA,Inc Theories. Being that you have been in Scouting for awhile, you noticed that there are only 20% of the old timers, just about every one is under five years. At the roundables and training courses [we] don't let deviative Scouters speak their opinions.,Most of the time [these scouters are] ignored ,rediculed, or told to take a training course.Then explain to me .?, As I travel around the States, I find the maverick type units who have the most successful program, and the largest unit membership. Could it be that what [is taught] 'by the book', does not work in majority of the cases.It's like beating dead horse, to make him run.Sorry, I have to run. cath you some other time. Good Scouting. Read my other posts. Juris. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

ASM Troop 59. I see you are trying to work very closely with the frame work of your scout training. You see it does not work most of the time. It's like beating up a dead horse, it won't get up and run. First of all you should find more boys to join, with a larger troop, you will gain more of that camping and Scouting spirit. Your Patrol Council are green horns, and they don't know what they are doing, and the adults themselves are probably in the same boat, sorry to say that . It's not how to make flags, ( this could be done in camp )You have to motivate the kids and the parents of the values of Summer camp.One way,is to show videos of past Summer camps, Have ex campers present a testimonial at the Parent night meeting of what a great time they had, and how much they learned.Take deposit's early enough so they will be commited. Choose an exciting and well run summer camp, with a large staff and resources. Talk to some other successful scoutmastr on their opinion. Make your Troop bigger, this way you will be able to weed out the ( non interested boy's) out of the troop and keep the live baits.I have to run. I will post to you more on the recruiting techniques, which the BSA,Inc, does not use later posting. Read my others post of my mavrick ideas to run successful Scouting, Juris.www

Gny-syracuse Scouter:What is a Patrol?, it's gang of kids. Some are bad gangs and some are good gangs,led by an 'Alpha " leader. They don't get elected ,,but every one in the gang agree's him to lead this group.( similar to a scout patrol.) A gang learns by having similar activities like vandelizing or playing sports.In BSA,Inc concept is that we can create and train these 10 1/2 year boys into smooth running Patrols, overnight by having them elect their popular peer. I found out ,by trial and error, that most likely, his concept does not work....., and with all the guidence available.Once you have a very succesful recruitment : A...Organize the group with their friends, B...Assign temporary an older, mature, high ranking ( Who wears his uniform )Scout.Set up regular briefing meetings with this selected leader.. After a period of time the, boys in the new patrol ,who achieve, good attendance and rank,are presented to this Patrol,.... as qualified to be a leader.This prevents the popularity and less motivated boy to lead this new Patrol. I found, that this method of organizing a Patrol is the best .Otherwise the new Scouts lose interest in this new disorganized Patrol and Troop,....leave to join street gangs, where they have better "Alpha" leaders ,rather then the neophyte PL they have chosen. (Training courses don't teach this way ) Here I go again, writing a book. I would suggest, break down fincialy, take and pay for few adult training courses. You can always learn something new, and then you can experiment for yourself as I did, what works and what does not.. (Read some of my posts, to know where I am coming from ) Juris, www

In response to " Eamonn " comments ! I lost your reasoning. Is Scouting not a game for the boys,and a serious job for the adults ? Has not this boy met all the requirements, and the Scoutmaster signed him off ? Is it not the job of the adult leader's in he unit to mold him in becoming a good citizen ?Or, Is this a priesthood sociaty, where commiting a sin places you in arms way of going to ' heck' No it's "Scouting",a method of teaching worthwhile values of life , to our youth. If this scout got this far, therefor give him his earned award. And ,the so caled Distric Advancement commitee ,with all of it's pure virtues ,should lay of him. Congratulate him in joining our imperfect world. "AMEN " Juris,www.

Kristi.....That was one of my biggest concerns in runing my Troop, that every boy should come home happy,safe and full of exciting stories to tell.Safety is not the priotiy in Adult Leadership trainings that I have taken, they glance over it as comen sence . Instead they lecture us in sexual abuse. Example : Scoutmaster was encouraged to take his boys on a Winter Camporee....,with poorly equipt (most of them were poor boys ) All the big shot's in Scouting attended,. The weather became unbearably cold. All the so called experts in winter survival went home, had cabins or stayed in their RV,s or vans.But, but this unit was going to survive, afterall they were trained by the district staff ? The camporee staff told him "you must teach boys cold weather camping !"....The outcome was that three of his boys had severe frost bite (one amputation)...The parents suit...BSA Inc.They did not support the Scoutmaster, they all blamed him, and not the SPL who listened to the boy run training course .( remember it is a boy run unit)The sm should not interfere ? . The entire district training commitee, negatd that they were pushing units for cold weather camping. You won't find this article in our " co called Scouter magazine, only in the a local newspaper. You are correct, BSA adult training has much to be improved. Glad that you pursuing this matter.Juris...." read some other statements I have on the forum "

Well, well you can not pleae every one. I only have experience with old explorer program. My Asst. Scoutmaster became an Exp.Advisor, becouse we did not know what to do with high ranking and leaership over qualified scouts who were reaching close to the age of eighteen. They did not want to leave this great unit and their friends. So we created this Post, with the theme " To be service to the troop " They had their own activities, and they kept non scout type new comers out of the post. ( council disagreed )The president of the Post told me, that they did not want to be baby sitters for these inexperiernced teenagers. Most all of them were Eagles,Life or Stars, and proud of it. Sorry had to run

Dear GNYC Scouter, NY is big and hecktic city. And I am glad that you are researching methodology of running a successful unit. I suggest you take regular basic courses, and then graduate to take woodbadge, then get " on hands experience ' with boys. This way you will experience 'what works, and what does not'. Just complaining on the forum, will only confuse you.,and many others.There are many , good intentioned Scouters and proffesionals, that point blank " don't know what they are talking about " That is one thing to theorise scouting, and an other to put it into active reality. I would suggestyou you read some books by the founder of Boy Scouting, Baden Powell.Juris,www, PS>>>>( read some coments of mine on some of the posts)

My dear " good kid's mom " I feel for you and I sypethesize for your dilema. You have to know that SM's are not trained psychiatrist's nor social workers. They are just volunteers that are trying to run a scout program to 'normal' kids. With the latest rules set up by the BSA,Inc. he has very little control over scouts , but only at his SM's conference. He gently implied that your son did not achieve the required goals. I would suggest that you legally transfer your boy to a "Special Troop ". There under the BSA policies they have trained and capable people to pass him on his scout achievent in consideration of his mental problems. A regular normal troop is not equiped to deal with special kids.(schools have special ed. program to assist such kid's) It would be much easier for your boy to echieve Eagle rank, under these relaxed and unstressed environement. Wishing you the best. Juris,www.

To 'it's me,oak tree, kuda, and Eagle Mom.::: All of you are right, Souting is the best program in the world, if it was not, we would not be in it as volunteers. In my troop, after 30 years, I had boys that became doctors, ambasodor in Moscow. USSR. police men,Scoutmasters, Scout executive ,etc., and unfortunately two ended up in prison ( Something went wrong there ?)(ha,ha,) Scouting is not perfect, but for the most of it, we did manage to mold the majority into good citizens.Juris. www.