johnmbowen

Our Troop will be rafting on the Snake south of Jackson over Memorial Day weekend, and we could take a few along. We run our own boats so there is no charge since we don't use an outfitter, but you have to help work. If you are interested, please reply.

HI MK9750 Well, Ohio is pretty far from WY, but if you can't find the WFA course there we would be glad to have you, and I would suggest a backpack trip or something while you are in WY, if you have the time. One suggestion is that I have found that WFA (about 16 hours) and the much longer WFR courses (up to 110 hours long and worth it)are sometimes found around Universities that have outdoor programs. Ok St U offers some, and I remember seeing on in VT I think while looking on the web. ARC vs BSA My experience with not only ARC but many other organizations have this same prejudice in regards to BSA. In fact when negotiating with ARC in the Oklahoma City area they really wanted to shirk the duty of finding students for my WFA (which indeed hasn't come out yet...probably in Fall 2003). I told them I wanted to aim it at BSA and they said "...sure" (leaving the impression of "don't call us, we'll call you"). ARC does extract money from all students so one wonders what the problem is. You can get the "official" ARC WFA student manual(and if you are an ARC instructor, you can get the instructor manual from the Transylvania Chapter ARC in North Carolina), but it is not as complete as the curriculum that we are used to teaching in WY. As for kayak and rafting (swiftwater) safety, if you would like to come to WY sometime in the summer, I would be really pleased to help if you can send me your email address privately. We do our training on a forgiving river with rapids etc. JB

The best ARC courses for being in the outdoors on Scout type outings: ie, 0-4 miles from the car for a bit more than a day would be the "When help is delayed", or "Wilderness First Aid." For those who go on multiday backpacks, multiday river rafting (on your own...since the professsional guides are required to have these courses), or other trips when an accident would mean anywhere from several hours to several days away from EMS, then Wilderness First Responder is the course to take. Both WFA and WFR include "Scenarios" where the students practice on simulated events. WFA (and especially WFR) take the ARC "When Help is Delayed" to the specifics of outdoor injuries, and how to handle them (and how not to, such as the SM that sewed a Scout's scalp wound closed with dental floss on a backpack trip and continued for a few more days). However, much of what is offered outside of technical trauma care and how to maintain a patient yourself is just common since planning ahead for problems that could conceivably arise, being prepaired for them, and tailoring your first aid kit to match. The most important part of Wilderness First Aid, is 1. Plan how not to need it, and 2. Have a plan if #1 fails. This simple action plan has worked for our Troop for years. For instance: Drill the Scouts on avoiding potentially dangerous things when in a position where help can be delayed, like not allowing scrambling on rocks when three days down the trail on a backpack, or allowing swimming on rivers with no PFDs. If you cannot find a likely course, even reading one of the several great books will help: Go to www.amazon.com and search under Wilderness First Aid, and the good ones pop up. Be sure to remember that leagally you are OK if you don't do anything that you are NOT trained for. Unfortunately, these courses are pretty rare. Check with your local ARC chapter, and see what resourses they have. The Transylvania NC ARC Chapter, Albany WY Chapter both have it and I am going to try (its taken a year to try to lay the groundwork) to teach a WFA in the Oklahoma City area especially designed for Scouters and older Scouts. We will also be teaching WFA throughout the summer in Laramie, WY, (this is a great place to come and try some cool backpack, climbing and rafting trips to make up for the class work). Respond back privately if you are interested. If you are a ARC instructor, investigate how to provide WFA at least. The Scouts are a super place to start, as we continually take kids into the outdoors.

No matter the cool memories, what counts is the ability of a boy to help when the time comes. Nothing is more killing to the soul than to be found wanting when an emergency occurs and when you could have done something...and you didn't know how. TEACH!

Jeff, The real deal is to have something generalized enough for most small things, or tailored for a particular trip...and carry it around. The second thing is to take some Red Cross courses, the best one being Wilderness First Aid, (or if you have time, Wilderness First Responder). The knowledge is what will stand you in better stead than a complete kit. JB

HA! We got lucky and snagged a private rafting permit on the San Juan River for a 6 day 87 mile raft trip in July. We will also do a short shake down to get the Scouts used to running their boats on the Snake. Spring Break we go climbing in Moab. JB

Check www.hpoiadventure.com a group in the North Rockies that has Scout oriented events. The whitewater in this area will be low this year, but climbing is good. JB I also have extensive experience in these kinds of outings if you would like to contact me privately.

ALSO Check Campmor: www.campmor.com and Sierra Trading Post www.sierratradingpost.com (be sure to tell these guys you are Scouts) JB

For Whitewater This Year: Go East! The Rocky Mountains are likely going to experience the 4th year of a drought. Check this webpage for water levels in all states: http://water.usgs.gov/realtime.html It looks like none of the rivers in The Rockies are going to be very good this year, including the Arkansas, Colorado etc. On a normal year, these provide lots of fun, and have plenty of outfitters on them. One Scout oriented outfit that actually trains Scouts to run their own boats is High Plains Outdoors, www.hpoiadventure.com Idaho seems to be having a fairly decent snow year. This opens the Main Salmon, Middle Fork of the Salmon, and if you are really gutsy, try the Payette. I recommend Warren River Expeditions for the Salmon, www.raftidaho.com. My Troop has luckily snagged a private permit on the San Juan River this year by winning the river lottery, but we have our own boats. We will also try the Snake in Jackson this year for somewhat better water. I have been a private and professional white water boater for more than 20 years, and if you contact me privately I will be glad to pass on some good tips. JB

What Luck! We got a private permit on the San Juan River, UT for a 87 mile raft trip in June! This will end up as our Troop's big trip for the summer. For Spring Break, we go to climb and mountain bike in Moab. ALSO found a bit on Cumberland Lake, KY and Table Rock Lake MO...is that what you need? Houseboating: Pretty Pricy! Have you though of a canoe trip on the Buffalo R instead? LAKE CUMBERLAND, KENTUCKY Bluegrass meets blue water at this lake near the Tennessee border. Dock at Lake Cumberland State Park or near General Burnside Island State Park to enjoy hiking, horseback riding, water sports and the nearby Mill Springs Battlefield, which commemorates both Union and Confederate soldiers. A 52-foot boat that sleeps eight costs $2,395 for a week during the regular season. Contact WaterWay Adventures at 800-844-8862 . TABLE ROCK LAKE, MISSOURI Houseboating at Table Rock Lake would be appealing just for the water sports and the dazzling Ozark Mountain redbuds and dogwoods. But it's also a good option for families who want to drive to area attractions, such as Silver Dollar City and nearby Branson, and return to a tranquil home base. A houseboat that sleeps ten costs $2,721 for seven nights during the peak season. Call Tri-Lakes Houseboat Rentals at 800-982-BOAT.

Hi Laura I don't know what to do with the older boys who are obvious cases for 'natural selection' (meaning that they will eventually get cold enough not to reproduce themselves...a double meaning that they will either not go when its cold, or they will freeze themselves). It is significant that the younger ones listen. A possibility that I have often used is to bring in the "outside expert" to do the lecture, and even invite on a really cold trip. Kids who might not listen to you, may listen to them. Note your son! Find someone who is a backpacker (or better an XC skiier who has done multiple day trips...or even a mountaineer) themselves, and better, who can show a slide show to 'warm up the audience'. They can give the same lecture that you do and the older kids may well believe them. We use this trick to re-introduce such treats as caving, ice climbing, and other fun things that spark real interest. When possible, we co-opt these people to become 'specialist' ASMs, bugging them about helping only when we do their particular recreation. Another idea would be to take the kids out away from a cabin for a below zero trip (in Wyo we have a "badge" for "frost points" which are accumulated degrees below zero on several trips). Then if they are lazy and sloppy, well....frostbite! Be sure to know the appropriate first aid for these! (Search for this topic under the keyword "wilderness medicine" or take a course from Red Cross). One last possible suggestion to get them to do the correct thing: I will tell them all the stages of hypothermia in gruesome detail (a real necessity if you are away from the roadhead as they can then look after each other), and then tell them that the only cure for it is to put them 'naked'('gross...you mean I have to get naked in front of my friends!!!!') in a sleeping bag with another 'naked' Scout('oh MAN UGLY GROSS')!!!! That really gets their attention! (it 'ups' the 'consequences of failure'). [NOTE: IN REALITY IT IS NOT TRUE...IF YOUR VICTIM IS ONLY IN MILD HYPOTHERMIA...STILL SHIVERING...STICKING THEM IN WARM DRY CLOTHING AND IN A SLEEPING BAG WILL FIX IT...THEY CAN STILL WARM THEMSELVES UP.] But the AWFUL idea of losing massive face for getting too cold has worked wonders with attention! We have never had to do more than mild warmups nor since worried about non-prepaired cold kids even when snow caving...maybe it will work for you. JB

Hi Hopps_Scout KS is absolutly right. Cots are definitely colder as per his explanation. A compounding and perhaps less understood reason for cold nights is that the bottom of the sleeping bag is crushed flat by your body and therefore provides no insulation. [insulation is provided by the dead air space that the sleeping bag "stuffing" provides by making the sleeping bag 'thick' (called 'loft' by the sleeping bag makers).] When you sleep on a cot, or on the ground for that matter, the bottom of the sleeping bag provides little insulation, necessitating the sleeping pad. KS is further correct in that 'convection' or moving air under will make your cot colder. [Convection is a big cause of loss of heat to the body in the outdoors - the other being 'radiation' meaning the loss of from your body as it radiates away from you, the third being 'conduction' meaning loss of heat directly from the body to a colder object...like the ground. These latter two are what the sleeping bag and pad limit]. Convection is further aided in the loss of heat by moisture, on your skin or in the bag insulation. Stay Dry and you will Stay Warm. A tip: Staying dry is one thing to teach your Scouts on winter and cold day trips. Convence them to wear no cotton (read the clothing labels), which absorbs moisture and promotes convection heat loss. Also impress on them the necessity to vent out heat, and moisture during physical exertion by opening their coats, taking off a layer, or even by taking off the hat (heat loss from the head accounts for about 20% of body heat loss). Small boys never think much about getting sweaty until it is too late. Even if they do pay attention (lots of training), sweat inevitably accumulates in the clothing promoting chills. This residual moisture in the clothes has less an effect during the day if they wear polypro underwear (get it at Wal Mart at the start of hunting season...a great deal!) - and no cotton tighty-whities or athletic sox allowed. At night this problem is eliminated by wearing 'sleeping clothes' and sox that have not been worn during the day as discussed earlier in this thread. Good discussions of this subject can be found in "Backpacking, One Step at a Time" or "Mountaineering, the Freedom of the Hills" available on Amazon.com. Spend several sessions at the Scout meetings on this subject with your boys proir to an outing, complete with a discussion of layering using a 'volunteer' with a full set of outdoor gear to physically demonstrate it, and a sleeping bag, pad, tent etc. fully rigged, and another 'volunteer' in appropriate clothes to show it. Pictures and hands on demos are worth a thousand words to kids this age. (Also a discussion about keeping their small gear in bags instead of being strewn about the snowy campsite is a good idea...these being a major cause of kid gear loss on snowy nights.) JB

For LauraT7: Remember that one thing that you have to deal with in the winter for camping when setting up your bedding is sweat. The more cotton that you include in your sleep system, the wetter it will get. While a nice cotton sheet is fine, feels good, and is comfortable, its use for several days if it is not thoroughly dried out will freeze you out. I like to use all fast dry components in my sleep systems, and to keep them very simple (its lighter to carry). I am always sure to spread out my sleeping bag in the sun (if available) each morning so as to try to get rid of as much moisture as possible. This is critical for multiday trips. This also brings up the difference between using down sleeping bags and synthetic bags. Sure, I was lucky enough to get a great 'Feathered Friends' Gore Tex covered bag which I use normally in the winter (being a fully addicted gear hound). However, for kids, I highly recommend synthetic bags as it is really difficult to get even well trained kids to manage moisture in their bags. The synthetic bags will not lose loft with moisture as will down, and are a much safer (as well as cheaper) alternative to down, even though down bags are lighter for the warmpth. For Hopps_Scout: Cots are fine in cool weather and comfortable, they by nature will sleep cooler than when on the ground. If you are sleeping on snow or when the temps are near zero, a cot will provide you with a very cold night. For sleeping in snow, I take the advice of high altitude climbers and do the following: Use two sleeping pads. The one next to the ground is a closed cell foam pad which you can get anywhere...even from Army Surplus for not too much. The second pad that I use is a thermorest full length which is more expensive (and kind of heavy for carrying on your back...we use sleds to haul gear over snow). This system will work very well, and won't freeze you even if your thermorest leaks. A lighter alternative would be a second closed cell foam pad. I always bring along enough gear to take care of temps about 10-15 degrees cooler than expected. A super source for inexpensive but quality outdoor bags is Sierra Trading Post and Campmor . Sierra Trading Post is very Scout oriented. What with global warming happening, we may be all using hammocks and sleeping in shorts through the winter soon. JB

KoreaScouter et al. I still agree with ASM1 and the other antis. And for Mr. Mori's purulent interest, I have nothing to hide (unlike Rev. Baker), as I have passed 3 years of intrusive child abuse background checks in the adoption of my son. And that is just what they are. And who will pay for these, mine were $25 each! Are you going to make the volunteers pay? My big and vehement objection is that perhaps a high adventure, or other teacher/volunteer should be in a different catagory in this case. If not, Scouting will sink further into an indoor activity, or perhaps become even more dangerous in the outdoors while attempting more than car camping. Scouting needs the 'outing' implied in it. This blanket rule will make it harder to provide this experience safely. We already promise those kids all kinds of adventure right in their Handbook, but do we really provide it? Well, our groups do. Maybe our groups are the only ones, but I hope not. And there is a great deal of difference between civilian and military life (eg: the Uniform Code of Military Justice vs. Civilian Justice System (having been in both, I perfer the latter)). It may be a matter of course for a soldier to be required a background check, but for a civilian, especially one that you ask to help your Scouts with an expertise they have for perhaps only for a week, the overt suggestion that they are a priori believed to be a child molester until being cleared is a slap in the face and ...and for what? A volunteer position? Perhaps a short time deal? Not only a volunteer position, but one for which a non-parent who is asked to impart a skill out of the goodness of their hearts, without a vested interest in Scouting (a child) is frankly a large burden to take on, even for a little while. For an outdoorsperson asked to share an expertise that the Troop doesn't have, but would like to provide for their Scouts, this is a double burden, and one that would really try their patience. It has mine. They don't have anything to hide, they just don't need the extra grief on top of a service. Perhaps your Troops need no exceptional expertise, but mine does as do the Venture Crews I help. We have an excellent safety and high adventure record. I will also reiterate that for a real high adventure program, you need more than a child abuse background check, and a Wood Badge. You need real experience in that form of high adventure you want to present, whether backpacking or white water rafting. Otherwise your children can be in danger of death due to your inexperience (probably a good clue as to why Scouting is heading more indoors). I also reiterate that parents who are already experts in an outdoor activity seldom feel the need to have their youngsters in Scouts as what they provide is often far more than a Troop can provide. I also know this through esxperience. I lost one kid and his family to this, but have luckily retained another partially by co-opting his family on raft trips which is their expertise, and by providing this Scout with rock climbing. From most of the comments, I don't believe that many of you have in reality experienced either of these phenomena. Sure Scouts is more than High Adventure, but High Adventure allows you to get that other training, and philosophy to them much easier, and to advance the cause to more kids. Does Scouting have problems that can be helped by this kind of expertise? Yes. Though I have heard of others, I personally remember (2001) an event where a young Scout on the Moab Daily river route had been abandoned from a canoe trip by his SM on the bank to walk the 2-3 miles back to the parking lot (for not paddling enough) barefoot, near naked and hypothermic. Well, at least he wasn't sexually abused, but perhaps help with outdoor expertise could have prevented the incident. At least, it wouldn't have happened with my Troop. In my experience, and in this catagory it is pretty extensive, most people who are interested enough in the outdoors to become an expert kayaker, rafter, climber etc. are not interested in pedofilia, or even kids for that matter. In fact these people, in my experience, would rather not be burdened to help a bunch of Scouts and getting them to share their expertise with Scouts is pretty hard. It would stand to reason that those interested in pedofilia might be inclined to spend time trying to get close to a Scout group, including arranging to get a background check for no good reason. If you have to have a background check, target it with reason. It is hard enough to get someone who has gone through a real swift water rescue course, or is a climber capable of putting up 5.11 routes to take "Safety Afloat" or "Climb on Safely," both of which I am forced to train regular Scouters beyond for safety reasons. Why slap them in the face with this? Most don't have a good opinion of Scouts to start with, but they have something every Scout Troop should have access to. So go right ahead and imply they molest children! Go car camping instead. Though I very much believe in child abuse protection, but I feel that this background check is NOT the blanket instrument to use in this situation. I rather believe that is yet another method to state that "national cares," instituted without thorough thought. But mark my words, it will drive off the very people who can bring Scouts what is promised to them, but in practice mostly denied, in half the pictures in the Scout Handbook, what the Scouts call "high adventure." I fully believe that the two-on leadership system of two adults with kids at all times, family participation, and instituting a personal relationship with your adult co-volunteers has shown to be effective, at least in my Troop. So, try another method. Remember that high adventure Troop in Washington State that got fed up with the whole thing, turned in their charter and joined the Mountaineers en masse? ASM1 is right. Tread lightly on those who could (and in many cases should) help you.

Well, this is just fine. My personal and considered opinion is that this is just another CYA decision by the national organization. Where the responsibility should lie is with the people in the trench. The problem is "high adventure." The most obvious far flung ramification of this is that it will make it much more difficult to convince people who are expert in some outdoor activity to become involved in helping out a Scout Troop. Suppose you find a likely person who is a very good climber, or rafter who normally would avoid getting involved with helping to teach and take Scouts on a trip, a service that would not only enrich the program, but fulfill the expectations of kids about Scouting. Suppose then that this person is convinced in the concept of providing what amounts to a very large service to a bunch of kids and adults they don't know. And then you lay it on them..."Well, we gotta make sure you arn't a SEX OFFENDER by making you undergo a BACKGROUND CHECK." Do you truely think that will help? This very thing happened to me, a 11 year veteren in Scouting when I offered to help out another Troop with high adventure. I was asked if I was a SINGLE MALE. I am, having been divorced for a few years. I was then told that this Troop would not allow me around because I was basically a sex offender suspect! Well, they are NOT getting any help from me, nor will I recommend any of my married friends to do so. I am still angry, though I have put up with Scouters like this for years. Is that what you really want? Don't the High Brass think that a potential, but undiscovered sexual preditor would NOT go to the trouble of the background check? Well, I can tell you that the outdoors people who really could do you some good as a favor WON'T. It is far easier for them to continue to practice their recreation without you. (These are the same High Brass that wanted Scouts who were going to climb at 18000 feet in high winds in arctic temperatures to wear 'visible' Scout uniforms!) What this will effectively do is to insure that the only source of outdoor expertise will come from parents already expert in some outdoors activity. Outside people who could really contribute to your program will be excluded because of the trouble, and the obvious mistrust. So, do you really care? Well, how many parents with a boy between 11 and 17 do each of you know that are capable of teaching the setting of effective and safe top-rope anchors? How many do you know capable of and interested in teaching how to read Class III swiftwater and swiftwater rescue. Not too many? I don't either. In reality, most parents who do these kind of things DONT have their kids in Scouts, because for these kids, Scouts mostly DONT do anything near as exciting as they do with their own folks! I have met several. Scouting is already too much like this: clannish and arrogant with too little to be arrogant about. Too many out of shape fathers are good at administration and expert at the Scout Method, but generally clueless in the outdoors, but ARE willing to put your boys at risk by taking them out there! Scouting already has a poor reputation in the larger outdoors community where our competance in the outdoors is in question. This will not fix it! Grow up, and take the responsiblity for yourselves. Check out potential helpers yourself. Get to know them. I pick mine after inviting them along on an outdoors trip that I run myself.

Laura 77 Here are the addresses of several grottos in Illinois. Sorry, my geog is not good enough to know which is nearest you. Following are several NSS (National Speological Soc.) clubs (Called Grottos). They will know where the caves are, and are the groups of experts that you are going to be interested in. I suspect that the cave you went to is what cavers call a "sacrifice cave" meaning that this cave is known to the public, well climbed through and beyond the point of repair. These are what we start our guys in, and our guys have to get several practice runs in before getting to go to a real wild cave. When you call though, you may have to call several groups. Be aware that most cavers (well, most outdoorspeople) are suspicious of Scouting in general due to the generally roudy and unprepaired Scout groups who get into their particular loved bit of wilderness leaving trash, devistation, and are even arrogant about it. Many need to be resuced even! I am one of those outdoorspersons...but rather than being part of the problem of polarization, I elected to train the Troop who became MY guys. I have since never looked back. Though your adults will probably not train, there is the other way. Co-opt the experts to become Assistant Scoutmaster Specialists who work with the kids only on that particular section, and who will go with them (small groups are best). It works...I was co-opted by a group that did want to learn, was conservative with the resources and was open minded enough to see a better way than the perception of exclusivity of expertise in the outdoors that often pervades adult Scouters. Talk to any Ranger privatly. Also be aware that most caves are so rare and loved that these people will NOT tell you where they are unless your group takes cave ethics to heart. Remember, the caver's bit of wilderness is irreparibly destroyed in an instant by even well intentioned, but clumbsy youngsters. However, don't let that stop you. Get hold of them, approaching them with the desire to learn and some at least will teach. My caver friends came over when they saw how well my guys were trained, and how caring they could be. The guys wanted bad to learn more and listened very carefully. We have done really great things, and the people who led them are our co-opted NSS cavers. With this same attitude, we have done lots of nice things...(see Oct 2002 issue of Boy's Life on the Mexico trip). Co-opting the experts really works, and we have no problems with retention of boys. There are several great deals on the internet about caving, including caving and Scouts (a good one that I have lost written by an NSS person.) NSS home page is http://www.caves.org/ Well, here they are: Little Egypt Grotto [E-mail: donbittle@yahoo.com] c/o Geology Department Southern Illinois University - MCI4324 Carbondale, IL 62901-4324 Crawlway Courier Near Normal Grotto PO Box 813 Normal, IL 61761 Near Normal News Rock River Speleological Society c/o Alan Wellhausen [E-mail: alcaver@hotmail.com] 10240 W. National Ave. - #176 West Allis, WI 53227 Rock River Irregular Sub-Urban Chicago Grotto c/o Gary Gibula 3 S 511 Fourth St. Warrenville, IL 60555-3313 Sub-Urban Troglo-News Windy City Grotto [E-mail: rearland@midway.uchicago.edu] c/o Fred Schumann 2252-A Baldwin Palatine, IL 60074 Windy City Speleonews My advice is to contact each and see if anyone is interested in presenting a program for your Troop. Good Luck!

Well, its been nearly a month since the last message, but we also do caving, and we include vertical caving. All of the above is correct. Caving is a very high adventure activity. It is also a completely self supported activity. If you get into a position where you need rescue...you must do it yourself. Outside of high altitude climbing or Class III+ rafting on remote rivers done by yourself, this is as good as it gets. Yes, they need all the med forms, but even more importantly, the leaders, as well as the Scouts need a great deal of training in the activity itself. Most dont have it. Shoot, most Scout Troops don't have training in more than backpacking! BUT, you can get it, but not from the Scouts, who when you get down to it approach all "high adventure" activities with a CYA attitude. Get your training from NSS cavers. We have several including myself, and we spare them no training, including re-belays, heel hangs, and most of all Cave Ethics. This is the key. When all the participants are well prepaired, well trained, and obey all the obvious rules, and have respect for where they are...well, you don't have troubles. We call our experts Specialist ASMs, and we only bug them when we go.

REd Feather's mention of pads is very important. Remember that as you lie on your sleeping bag, blankets or no, that part is compressed to nothing. It is the 'dead air' held still by the insulation, down or otherwise, that is the insulator in sleeping bags. For those sleeping on snow, an inflatable pad like a thermorest is very nice (full length) BACKED UP by a closed cell pad that won't deflate if punctured. We always bring a tarp to be sure that the snow doesn't melt to water and seep up through the bag, even when sleeping in tents. Snow caves for those of you who have snow are very nice, bringing the T up to about 40 F with bodies and candles inside. They provide an almost mystic atmosphere, and if done correctly are safe and very fun. Use the T-shape ones as they are far easier and more efficient to build (don't forget that domed ceilings are required. Insure for proper ventillation, and use the tarp to go both under the sleeping bag as over it, as the caves drip! Oh yeah...do your cooking outside, and if your stove goes out, and you cant get your matches to light...well, you are NOT breathing oxygen! Get outside fast! JB

Eisley has it correct concerning good judgement and training, especially with the adult leaders. In addition, I would like to include outdoor experience in that catagory. Too many BSA groups from Venture on down have gone on trips way above their experience level (or as we ought to put it, "not prepaired"). Too few adult leaders, and even fewer youth leaders even have adequate first aid experiences and training, including WFA, WFR, ie more than CPR (and remember "CPR is done to keep a dead body viable...and hope EMS gets there soon). I actually know of no easy to access BSA program that offers training on trips of this kind, though I have heard of one expensive one offered on one or the other coast. Therefore, find a willing expert, and even better, go with them without the kids and learn yourself. Don't forget First Aid, and remember...prevention is 9/10ths of the game. We have exclusively done our Scouting outings in the list first addressed, but have done it with what we call our "Specialist ASMs" a non-existant designation where we deliberately seek out people with the expertise needed for a particular type of trip. They fill a function similar to (but predating by ~ 5 years) the "Venture Consultant." Though I have read where some Scouters state that this is a bad idea, it has always worked. We "bug" our 'specialists' only when we ask them to help train the group for the trip, and then ask them to go on it to monitor our group (quality control). It works well for our Troop. We have no problems with retention, and are a very active if small group. We have never had any injuries (outside of scrapes and bruises), much less fatalites! Using this method, our trips have even taken some of us to climb internationally as a Troop (Boy's Life, Oct. 2000).

Well, I just tried to reply, but who knows what happened! Well, again... For those headed to the Rockies area here are a few good ones that can do multiday trips. For Mid Colorado on the Arkansas River (which is very popular, but relatively crowded) is Timberwolf Rafting and the owner often leads the trips. For N. Colorado, there is High Plains that does the Upper Colorado River and the North Platte River (Class IV) and preports to cater to Scouts including offering training. For the Idaho Area and getting onto two of the really great rivers of the West, the Main Salmon and the Middle Fork of the Salmon for an entire week is Warren River Expeditions, out of Salmon Idaho, and again the owner often goes on the trips.

Well, we're thinking of XC skiing on 10th mountain for a luxury tour (ie. huts), ice climbing, a winter 14er (hikeup only), and maybe sea kayaking on Lake Powell. For the summer we will try to pull a permit on the Green, or maybe the Yampa (!). jb

I fully aggree about being prepaired and the comment about being much more aware after taking and repeating the courses is absolutely correct. In fact, I think that this is the key. If you think ahead...just as mentioned...well, you don't get into the problems that might escalate into an emergency. Though I learn about planning ahead by myself, and FA via Red Cross, I havn't heard of any training that takes this into consideration. JB

Well, whatever the type, kayaking is lots of fun from flat water to white water, and is frankly easier to teach and do than canoeing. We have flatwater kayaks with watertight compartments, and the kayaks can utilize spray skirts (which can be hand made). One way to see if you like these boats and this type of outing is to find an outfitter that rents them. For instance I have thought about kayaking on Lake Powell, UT, and the website there states that you can rent the boats...why not try it!!

Well, this is a big question. How much first aid should be necessary to have along on a Scout Trip. Some Troops keep a nurse or physician along. Some adult members have first aid (usually Emergency Response) and others are not satisfied with this and do more (or do outdoor trips requiring) such as EMT, Wilderness First Responder, or Wilderness First Aid. Some Scouters have none (which I personally think as scairy, as I had to suffer through a (non-scout) outdoor emergency). The Scout First Aid merit badge is meant to be an introduction to first aid, not a resource, in my opinion. What is required, and what should be required for adults or even boy leaders?

I agree with denver4und completely. However, as pointed out to me previously, what Scouts wear in the field is pretty much up to the Troop. The rub comes (or came) if you wanted to submit a story to Boy's Life, or Scouter Magazine, where the rule was that all Scouts had to be in uniform if you wanted them in a picture. This may be changing. My Troop is in Boy's Life for this Oct. (the mountaineering article), but no uniforms are visible (!), and this was the issue that I had. Safety vs. Style. If a Troop goes into the outdoors away from cars or lodges (ie away from a Scout Camp) for most any event, then the clothing used is for the safety of the individual. Not for style, not for tradition, but for safety. A person that I talked to at the National HQ confided that the higher-ups did not quite understand that fact, and more or less wanted Scouts on a glacier at 18000 feet to wear Scout Shirts and Scout Pants. THAT is a safety issue! When I see Scouts in that kind of position in uniform, I see a contrived photo! Even if a person is going backpacking, or sailing where wind and water can provide a real safety hazard through hypothermia or hyperthermia, then adhering to a uniform that is made for looking good inside becomes a safety issue. One of the respondents earlier stated that no (non-Scout) outdoorspersons used outdoor clothing similar to Scout uniforms...and for this good reason. Many Scouters disagree, but I suspect that they do not fully engage in what the Scouts term "high adventure" and what we call just plain trips. So you are right denver4und...do what good outdoorspersons all do...dress for the event. Dress for safety, and not for style or tradition. And don't worry about pictures in magazines, or tradition, worry about safety. Our guys now wear zip-T neck shirts made of fleece or microfleece with the Troop number embroidered on the collar, making a very useful and appropriate top for everything. We have always worn the type of shorts you recommend when rafting, summer hiking and even climbing, and of course we use gore tex overpants and parkas, plus all the appropriate gear when climbing big mountains. The good part is that the Scout magazines are re-thinking their uniform picture policy. Safety of the Scouts in the outdoors is, in reality, far more important than style or tradition. Hike on - dress smart...if you die, we will split your gear! (but only if it is good gear!) Too many Scouts get into trouble in the outdoors anyway to get into trouble this way too.