johnmbowen

Definately "roll your own." Our Troop has done this for years and we have even quit going to any Scout camp as they really don't provide the quality of experience that we now demand. I would highly recommend the trip mentioned previously, the Weminuche Wilderness trip accessed by the Durango to Silverton Narrow Guage RR. It is highly spectacular. Our Troop did it easily, but beware, you have to cross the Cont. Devide twice from Elk Park to Needleton via the Vallecito Trail and traversing Chicago Basin (about 32 miles and five days and surrounded by 14000 foot peaks). I recommended this to a OK Venture Crew who couldn't take the altitude and wasn't able to top the pass. The scenery is utterly fantastic though, and is worth conditioning yourselves for. Should you go, get the guide book called "Weminuche Wilderness" and reserve Narrow Guage RR tickets NOW, or you will not get on the train. Alternately, there are lots of Wilderness areas in CO, NM (the Pecos is very heavily traveled and I quit going there 20 years ago due to crowding...but it does lose its snow in May), WY and MT. These include Maroon Bells near Aspen (also highly crowded but spectacular), Hunter Frypan (to the East of the 'Bells') La Garita in S Colo, and a dozen others. There are also 54 Fourteener's in CO (walkup high altitude mountains...all with trails to do, including Long's Peak,Elbert, Massive, and many others. I would be very pleased to help you find a good place there to go should you like to reply privately. JB

What I want to add to this discussion at this late date is that being a BSA Lifeguard, or for that matter a pool lifeguard, Red Cross Certified or not does not make anyone, adult or kid capable of any rescue in swift or even moving water. The Safety Afloat and Swim Safety are just a set of rules that we have to follow to have the BSA insurance work for you. They are generally good rules, except for the paltry requirement of a BSA lifeguard on board. In canoeing, rafting or kayaking, this is worse than useless, as it might cause the lifeguard to rush into a situation he is not trained for and therefore cause another casualty. Take a class in swiftwater rescue like the original guy...he indeed is the guy who will save your behind...BSA just doesn't know. Same with Climb on Safely...get real training before taking Scouts climbing.

What, self doubt with the Eagle Factorys! Well, I never... I am going to weigh in with Le Voyager, et al. on the value of early Eagles. Surely the Eagle rank is a fine accomplishment if it is done by the boy himself, even with help. But I agree that perhaps only about 5% of the Scout population has this drive to succeed on his own. Is it what all Scouts want, and is it the sum of Scouting? Unfortunately, I have known many Eagles who as 'serving Scouts' that not only couldn't tie knots, they couldn't set up a tent or do most anything practical! On questioning, they couldn't remember first aid specifics, or practically anything in detail! Too bad. These are victims of parents or SMs or Troop committees who want another trophy boy and don't allow the kid to become a leader in his own way. Though attaining the badge is worth while, leadership, a large Eagle goal, is not something that is taught by following a set of merit badges and rank requirements that can become litle more than 'fill in the blank' tests. Like other outdoor enthusiasts, I believe that a super way for leadership to bloom is thorugh outings and high adventure, where active practice, not BSA pamphlets, make leaders. Like was said before, many Scouts receive full measure of Scouting becomming leaders, moral, caring, and better men without the badge. Several older Scouts in my Troop have not advanced far, but stick with the program and the high adventure outings. One in particular, Scout rank, set up logistics for several long outings, including an international one involving airline flights from several directions, as well as leadership on these trips. Though only ranked 'Scout' he can tie all of the knots on demand, lead any trip, teach young Scouts how to build a one match fire in the wet, as well as knowing how to set bombproof reliable three point top rope anchors and run class III rapids. Badges just don't interest him. Well, I guess he will never attain Eagle, but I would put him against any Eagle in his Scouting, his leadership and his character. Go ahead, pillory me for not forcing rank down his throat. My impression is that he would quit in a minute. Is that what BSA wants??? So, are badges that important? I think not. The experience is the thing. Eagle Rank is for those who have that interest and should be admired as such. It is after all an experience too. Remember, Scouting uses the ranks to keep boys interested until the ethos rubs off on them. In the end, it is the boy who gains that ethos no matter what way, that wins, rank or no, and the ranks, badges and pins in the end are only for the scrapbook. I hope that the Eagle rank is never he pinnacle of a life's performance for any young man, but only a step in the right direction. There are other worthy directions for that step equally as valuable. (The Scout that I described, after being so denegrated by 'longbelt' Scouters has a very poor view of Scouting leadership, though he persists with our Troop).

I have just sent Hopps Scout a short blurb on whitewater rafting for his webpage on High Adventure Scouting

Any swiftwater activity is dangerous, and the swifer the water the more dangerous! Proper training is the key. Rafts are the most stable and forgiving of the three mentioned above. Kayaks, assuming that the kayaker knows what they are doing, are usually safer than white water canoeing. Canoes are the most difficult and elegant of the whitewater craft, but definatly require the highest order of skill to run them competently. I have no idea why the BSA Whitewater MB is based mainly on whitewater canoeing! The reason that kayakers die on rivers is because they tend to push the limits of whitewater boating, some without proper training. However, the same can be said for Scouts! BSA has lost Scouts every year to dumb accidents on outings that could have been prevented by proper training.

Hi Folks I am trying to compile a list of Troops that do whitewater rafting (ok...kayaking too), especially those that run their own rafts and train their Scouts as rafters. The idea is to coordinate trips and rivers for joint outings. If any of you are out there, please reply. JB

Glacier, Ice Climbing et al. HI Lee My Troop does all of these things. I do not believe that there are any solid qualifications for glacier travel, or sea kayaking other than "Climb on Safely" and "Safety Afloat." The way that we do it safely is that we have a whole group of ASM "specialists" who are highly qualified climbers, rafters, etc. that we have co-opted (Local professional guides as well) and who sub in as ASMs who train the Scouts heavily prior to going on the trips and then accompany them. We dont bug the ASM specialists except for the outing of their expertise, so they don't burn out. Our Troop did Orizaba a couple of xmasses ago and we just got the permit (intn'l this time) as usual. When we do WW Rafting, climbing, ice climbing, etc. we just put in for the permit, and have had no trouble. My impression is that most of the Professional Scouters have little or no expertise in this kind of 'high adventure' and may have little or no interest in it as well. Just stay out of trouble. JB

I am on station in Wyo running rafting trips. ARe you still interested in this website?

Indeed, that is the first step in a first response Standard Operating Proceedure (SOP) from ARC procedures. However, in any response, especially in one that will involve a definite threat to life especially as in the Swiftwater Rescue, or even rock rescue, the rescuer who assumes the position of Incident Commander will have to make the hard decision as to whether or not he/she and the other rescuers are prepaired, knowledgible, and in position to perform the rescue without endangering their own lives unduly. This decision would be done at basically the same time as the first step above. This decision is all the more agonizing in a swiftwater situation where the status of the victim may change radically for the worse in less than 6 minutes, the time it takes to go brain dead from drowning or suffication. If the answer is no, the victim who may be only yards away but inaccessible in roiling rapids, may die if the rescuers are not able to perform the rescue without dying themselves and compounding the problem for other rescuers. A failed rescue is one where you don't get the victim out alive, a badly failed one is where the rescuers die trying, or become victims to be rescued themselves! Slamming a kid under 18 with this kind of grief is not something that any incident commander, rescuer, or parent wants to do. There are many SARs positions that can be filled or supported by youth, but these examples are not some of them. Take as much Red Cross First Aid as possible, I would recommend Emergency Response, When Care is Delayed, CPR-for the professional rescuer, and as much else as you can. I am especially fond of WFR which is most useful for me, however the 110 hours plus 5 outdoor modules it takes makes it hard for me to keep current. My pro guides are required to take WFA, with WFR recommended. If you are in to this, get into an EMT class! Like I said, that kid who became a doctor was the most real kid in all his school so far as I was concerned. He is still my friend, and is responsible for cajoling and forcing me to climb at my limits (now only about 5.10 on rope with whining). JB

Appologies to hopps_scout for my being blunt and short in the last message. My intention was not to walk on him. He is a actual Scout, not an adult Scouter, and so is serious about his questions. I didn't realize the author was you. My mistake. I have often been exhasperated by opinions expressed by adult Scouters on subjects that they should either know, or have done some research on. Especially on the more outdoor subjects that they ought to know something about but so often don't, as they are the ones who take the youth out. So, follows what I should have written. After having taken courses in Swiftwater Rescue (not as SAR, but as collateral safety knowledge and skills for being a professional raft guide and Scout rafting leader) as well as teaching WFA and helping teach WFR, swiftwater safety, High and Low Angle Rock Rescue, I know that there are hard truths about some subjects including first response, and rescue. The first rule thereof is "Never make a second victim, especially yourself." This is particularly serious in swiftwater rescues where seconds count as life and death and calm and correct decisions are hard. First among these is the first rule, and secondly the idea of putting other people, especially minor persons in danger or forcing them to make these kind of decisions at that age, where even the correct decision could cost a life is not something that is fair to do. It is the hard truth that the Incident Commander of the pro responders will not use youth in any way that could result in their injury or death. In any swiftwater problem with my Troop, it will be the adults that will have to go into a rescue situation, with the Scouts taught what to do to help. The 'strong swimmer' will not be a Scout. However, there are many highly useful things that Scouts and young people can do. The best example is of a friend (now a ER doctor in residency) who was a HS student when I spent my only year teaching at that level. This boy took all the required classes and became an EMT before his 18th birthday. Though he could not be signed off, he did ride with the ambulances and assisted in real cases, the only student of that entire school that did anything so useful, and something that has made him a great man. I would suggest that Scouts interested in this kind of activity individually go out and take as much of whatever technical classes that they are interested in, like WFA or WFR for outdoor stuff, or EMT. (though learning technical climbing, kayaking and others are great too) and serving with the real responders. Scout units that can perform at high level are rare, and heavily depend on the adult expertise they can draw on (and all adults in Scouts ought to go that extra mile). But for Rescue, they will either be relagated to support or search by the Incident Commander, or they will have to be trained not to rescue others, (unless they are the only ones on site, in which case we adults will have to take the sharp edge), but to rescue themselves in accident situations, which is what my Scouts prepare for. From what I have found about hopps_scout, he will do very well, being a real self starter. JB

Bad example: Swiftwater Rescue is something that is highly technical and very dangerous, similar to high angle rock rescue. Training is absolutely required, and a great deal of practice is necessary. I only help teach each, and even with lots of practice, I would stay away from either, unless you were forced, which is not the case with SAR. In any event, the pro SARs would most likely say, 'thanks, but no thanks.' There are many things that people younger than 18 can contribute, and do well, but going into danger as in these examples, where the rescuer could become a victim in seconds is not something that any SAR incident commander will allow minors to deal with. There is nothing wrong with helping with SAR, but do so under the direction of the local SAR unit, not on your own.

Well, I just got the "official" ARC WFA material from ARC. This is a ARC published course that was originated in Transylvania Chapter in NC. Of course a great deal of the course is advanced first aid which is necessary, but I was dissappointed to see that they did not cover as much as I thought they should in the catagories of lengthy care, methods of trauma care over time, when to and when not to evacuate and evacuation methods, as well as planning not to get in trouble, as we do when we have taught it. Though getting just about anything is better than not getting it, one ought to go on to supplement this training with a liberal dose of reading the various available Wilderness First aid or responder books that are available. Again...The most important part of Wilderness First Aid is to plan so that it is not used! I would suggest that you all come to the WFA class with specific questions and scenarios for the instructors. That will help tailor the course for your needs.

Mr hopps_scout, who is a webmaster, has told me that he is very interested in this project and would kindly consider setting up a webpage for high adventure troops, with perhaps a trip log, planner, and pages of tips on how to. We corresponded by email and talked about some structure for it. He knows how to do the web page, but hasn't had much experience with high adventure himself. At this point, he would probably need some written material from those of us who have set up and have run high adventure of different sorts to give him information to set the page up. He may be thinking about an outline for the page at this time, and the rest of us could get some stuff together in catagories that either he or we could suggest. I can write some stuff on climbing and rafting, and have plenty of pics that my Troop has done (maybe I can write a story about our last year's trip) to go in it. This will have to be a collective effort in getting this to go. Hey, hopps_scout, what do you want from us? I can write that story (above) and some other stuff later this week. Can you give us an outline of what information you would like us to contribute? JB

Hi Hopps and all Hopps-Scout stated above that we could make up such a webpage. I think that this is a great idea, does anyone else concur? If we have several respondents we could set up some kind of webpage right here on Scouter.com that can be accessed by anyone interested. Any other takers...I'm in! jb

Hey, we are beginning to network here! We could set up a section of this proposed webpage offering trips, as Mike is suggesting! Well, I can do some stuff if you are in the WYO area. Also, My Troop every summer takes out a Scout group from elesewhere on either a rock climb or a river trip (we could also do a Colo 14er). These are a situations where we train the boys in the actual techniques and skills necessary. For whitewater rafting, we go over such things as running and managing of whitewater rafts (we use our own (or borrowed) boats. We do a bit on reading water, safety, self and assisted rescue, righting flips, etc. and even waterfights. We already have one group going with us to the San Juan R, UT this year, but next year would be open. JB (Through my company we do something similar with pro training, at cost...if that is of interest, contact me privately.)

Hi Mark My sentiments exactly! The Scouter in question was an older type who was high in the District Committee, and probably hadn't been camping for half a century (an exhaspirated exaggeration of course). The Scouters, parents and Scouts that we taught were grateful for the information, and we passed off the MB anyway as an extra because all the ground was covered. This attitude of doing it the Scout way only is a problem that we have had with all aspects of high adventure, and anything technical that has to do with the outdoors. I have finally just gone to ignoring these guys, and teaching and working with the Scouters on the ground. This "Scout Way" attitude is often reflected back in the appalled attitude of USFS Rangers, Park Rangers, and even competetant non-Scout outdoorsmen in regards to our capabilities! One ASM that did expedition quality mountaineering and vertical caving with his group (they have a super video out) and all the safety that goes along with these things told me outright that he just didn't tell the 'brass' what they were doing at all. What we are doing is building the quality from the ground up, it will take time till all the 'brass' are either convenced, or retire out. JB

Well, same here and from both directions. I had a lot of flak from the BSA side when trying to teach ARC Wilderness First Aid to Scouting Adults and Youth. Things will have to improve with time. Dont stop trying...too much "we're better than them" amongst both sides. JB

What would be a good format? Could we do a separate webpage connected with this server? There are lots of separate links that would be interesting to gather together. I know of one that some Scouters have put together that list camps and other places that Scouts can go for camping. I would like to see a reference listing not only destinations, but resources, for instance I teach whitewater rafting. What about setting up joint 'expeditions.' Cheap places to get gear, teaching techniques, well, one could go on. My problem is that I am an awful web page designer, and use one of my V Crew members to work that magic. Any suggestions?

Good for you Bob. This will be great. It is basically what our Troop has been doing for several years. (well we really need to do it to keep up with what we do). I have in the past been berated by scouters for teaching WFA etc rather than adhering to the BSA party line. Maybe this will now change. JB

HI Jeff, Get on www.amazon.com and search under 'wilderness first aid' and all the good stuff comes up. We have used a couple of Forgey's books. One thing that the manuals don't seem to emphasize is 'staying out of trouble' and 'planning what to do if you do get into trouble at any point on the trail'. Here are a few selections copied from Amazon. Wilderness Medical Society Practice Guidelines for Wilderness Emergency Care by William W. , M.D. Forgey (Editor), et al Basic Essentials: Wilderness First Aid, 2nd Edition (Basic Essentials) by Williamw., M.D. Forgey, William Forgey Wilderness First Aid: Emergency Care for Remote Locations by National Safety Council (Editor), et al Wilderness Medical Associates Field Guide by Jim Morrissey The Wilderness First Responder: A Text for the Recognition, Treatment and Prevention of Wilderness Emergencies by Buck Tilton, Frank Hubbell Medicine: For Mountaineering & Other Wilderness Activities by James A. Wilkerson (Editor) Wilderness 911: A Step-By-Step Guide for Medical Emergencies and Improvised Care in the Backcountry by Eric A. Weiss

I have been very impressed with the runs of high adventure activities shown here, which seem so rare with most of BSA. Would anyone be interested in setting up a High Adventure Special Interest network though this website, or another to keep track of what is going on, and promote High Adventure as a more common occurrance in BSA? JB

Yeah, getting through customs is not so easy with minors. When we took our Troop mountaineering expedition to Mexico, each Scout had in his posession his passport, a letter in Spanish stating that he had both parent's permission and to travel with the group and their signatures, the ASM names, and the hotel name and number in Mexico City at which we stayed. The other obvious rules as we were in the City there. Never go out alone, always in a pretty big group, watch out for your friends, never take the "green VW taxis" but only those that the hotel called for us (some kidnappings and ransoms were done a couple of years ago). And of course the don't drink, smoke or otherwise behave badly (not so easy when any gringo can do so at any age). Oh, yeah...no shorts. (Be aware of the local customs and comply with them).

This is the course that I help teach. We do this in the summer mainly for climbing company guides. We fit the Scouts in too. http://www.hpoiadventure.com/rescuetraining.html

Eisely is correct. Check it with a lawyer. Here is a medical release we have used, and is one that is similar to our comm'l one. Some of the formatting has been lost her. All the physicians really want to do is to get someones signature before going to work. They will try to call first. YOu can add some language giving a particular person (SM) the authority to seek medical care for the child. I am not sure where we got it, but we once used it. No one got hurt. In the one incident many years ago where I did have to use one we had a handwritten note that worked fine. This one also comes with a conduct form, the med release which is what you want is at the end. JB TROOP XXX, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA OUTDOOR ACTIVITY RULES OF CONDUCT AND CONSENT FORM Since the safety and best interest of ALL our scouts is foremost. We ask that you as parent (or guardian) review the following guidelines with your child and show your support and agreement by signing and returning it to the Scoutmaster of Troop XXX, along with the medical information prior to the departure date for the activity. As a participant in a Troop XXX outdoor activity you are: not allowed to leave the group, or the camp site by yourself unless you have permission from your adult leader required to wear seat belts at all times when riding in any motor vehicle and to not stand or move around while the vehicle is in motion. required to have good manners and respect for fellow scouts and adult leaders at all times. required to be responsible for your own gear, personal belongings and valuables. required to obey the Scout Oath, Scout Law and Outdoor Code at all times. I, the undersigned Scout, have read and fully understand the above rules of conduct and agree that Troop XXX reserves the right to withdraw me from the activity if I show a disregard for these rules of conduct. As parent/guardian, I agree that if my child is withdrawn from the activity due to improper conduct, I will make arrangements for my child's return home immediately. Further, I have read the description of the activity and fully understand that the program is a moderately strenuous physical activity. MEDICAL RELEASE In the event that my child needs medical attention while participating in the activity, and I cannot be reached, consent is hereby given for any emergency hospitalization, anesthesia, operation or other medical treatment which might become necessary. I HAVE CAREFULLY READ THIS AGREEMENT AND FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS CONTENTS, AND I SIGN IT OF MY OWN FREE WILL. _________________________________ ____________________ __________________ Scout's Signature Printed Name Date _________________________________ ____________________ __________________ Parent or Guardian's signature Printed Name Date PHONE___________________________

I help teach high and low angle rock rescue in the summer, and we often run our Scouts through it just to be thorough, but we have never had to deploy the Scouts for real.