johnmbowen

HI Seattle and Bill Yes we have tended to pick a type of outing, then plan where to go with it. In the summer, which I am now limited to by jobs, we tend to concentrate on rafting, climbing, backpacking and caving. The challenge is finding new places to practice these, and we seem to have only scrached the surface in the 10 years of doing this stuff. I've been interested in learning canyoneering as well, which might be an easy sell as a type to the kids. It seems to combine climbing, caving and water skills. Here in WY there is just too much to choose from. One thing that I would suggest for Seattle's canoe trip is to try kayaks. Most outfitters in the OK area (which has far fewer choices for fun) and which has in the past been entirely canoe, have them for rent. These recreational or sea kayaks are much easier to control than canoes and are much more stable. The all important J stroke is not necessary, and the center of gravity is below the water rather than above. For me, I don't have to sit on my knees anymore! Try this out! However, there is nothing that will help you more than a real comprehensive river course. It has all the characteristics of flat water but adds movement. I took a great course from Canyonlands Field Inst. in Moab, and we teach a watered down version (ie...not complete whitewater rescue, but more river skills). One pleasing find is that in OK (which has a temperate climate) you can go boating all year round, and that on the OK flatwater rivers NO ONE IS EVER THERE!!! Its a patch of wildness just out the back door. BTW, we will see how the new light kid will take to the rock rescue class as 'victim' in only a few hours. He is the real winner for this thread today. I'll take some pictures, but don't know how to place them here. Suggestions? JB

Well said Cliff! The adult positions are really teaching positions in the Troop or Crew. One continually has to re-teach the lessons of logistics, planning and making things happen to new youngsters when inevitable breaks in the youth leadership occur. One of the things that I've noted is that many kids when asked to sit down and plan some adventures is that they don't even have a good idea about what to do! It is the lack of experiencing a wide variety of adventures that limits their imaginations. So our role often has to be to teach, talk up, and help them set up as wide a variety of adventures as possible, along with the technical skills necessary to run the trips, or to find some knowledgible adult who can. That said, a common problem is that many, if not most, adults in Scouting are also not well versed in the many things that can easily be done by themselves either. My only suggestion is that we adults need to research, try out, and practice the adventures ourselves - and then sometimes get the kids to come along and learn the skills and go on the adventure too. I would propose that we adults get together to set up and run new adventure oriented trips for ourselves so that we have that capability to pass on to the youngsters. I'd be glad to try to teach some of these skills and play too. My Troop/Crew is just now putting a push on to teach water safety and rafting skills over the next three weekends to prepare for a primier raft trip that will consist of rafting skills, camping skills, cooking skills, and logistics which we adults will have to be both trainers for most of the kids, and as coaches who will help groom our potential youth leaders so that they can do it themselves later. That difficult tightrope is the one we have to walk. Another good thing that this discussion has done is to remind me to plan for some subtile 'grooming' too. Ah, after a phone conversation literally as I was writing this, I got to do that. My outfit is teaching high and low angle mountaineering rescue tomorrow for aother climbing guiding outfit. In addition to us teachers, we have one of our Scouting fathers, one older scout (easy groom) and an ex-scout (potential ASM material and groom for the raft stuff starting Sun) to help with the class. And due to this discussion...I just called a smaller kid to play the "victim" whom we will "rescue. He will get to observe this class, feel part of the mission, and get excited about this kind of thing, which will groom him as a future youth leader. Guess this forum has reminded me to practice what I preach, thanks to you guys! BTW...one skill I don't have is long distance biking, another whitewater kayaking. Ah well. JB

Just got your post, and am still somewhat stunned that more groups don't go off on their own. Still some of these camps do offer some group participation in setting up their own backpacks and trips. I did notice that the Log Cabin Camp did actually offer Peak Bagging which was one of my suggestions. I would like to suggest a similar alternative that might be of interest. See http://www.hpoiadventure.com/scoutprograms.html which has a few programs that offer groups technical skills and will help the group to later finish their trip with a neat trip on their own. JB

Hi folks Taught my 4th, but the first for a BSA audience in OK. I have updated my course (it is based on the wimpy Transylvania Chapter outline) with content from our course we teach in Albany Co. WY which is based on 10 years experience and NOLS. My sentiments exactly for WFA and Scouts. At present most all Scouts and Scouters in the wilderness are an accident waiting to happen. Little first aid and little outdoors knowledge and lots of ambition will lead to problems. My group will be teaching WFA March 13 or thereabouts in Laramie, WY. Email me back if you are interested. JB

It was either March or May...they are going to draw a picture. I don't get the magazine and so I hope they send me a copy. JB

In the past, our Troop specialized in snow caves and shelters. The best cave: Cut back a snow bank saving some snow blocks. The snow should be relatively consolidated for safety. Dig out a T shaped entrance. The T shape includes the entrance (the vertical part) and the cross piece starts the snow shelves that you will eventually sleep on (you need to sleep above the floor as that is where the cold air migrates. Dome the roof once inside for strength of the cave. The open T allows for easy shoveling. Be SURE to use a ski pole to push a vertical vent through the roof for air. Finally fill in the cross piece parts of the T, leaving only the bottom of the vertical piece which you will close with a pack. Dish out some candle spots! Also be sure to have plastic tarps to put your sleeping bags on, and to go over the top. The temp gets up to about 40F and the cave has a tendancy to drip. 3-4 candles make enough light to read by. Be aware that in a cave, there is no sound, to you cannot hear the boys in nearby caves. Good sleeping! A Quinzie is also fun to build. Here you just make a large mound of snow (stomp it down periodically to consolidate it) Shape the outside into a dome. Stick sticks in all around the outside of the dome to go in about 1 to 1.5 feet. Dig a low hole in the leeward side of the dome and dig out the interior till you hit the sticks. Poke a vent hole in the ceiling. Alternately, you can buy a form called "POLARDOME" that makes a very nice dome. The coffin shelter: A one person emergency shelter can be made by making a trench in the snow. Carve out flat "blocks" of snow that are wider than half way across your trench. Make sure your trench is about 3 feet deep. Stack the blocks on the top of the trench such that you make a roof. We always used some sticks to help support this roof. For true emergencies, you can line the bottom with boughs for insulation covered by the ubiquitous plastic tarp, and build a small fire at the open head end with a heat reflector wall aimed into the trench. We always taught the boys this one as insurance in case they got caught out in the mountains so that in a pinch they could survive the night. Be aware that the first two take all afternoon to make, and make you pretty wet. We always had rain gear along to wear. Towels to dry off are also very useful. All but the last are pretty labor intensive, but are fun. Practice yourself so that you don't have one collapse on you. I was always paranoid about this and made my roofs as thin as possible. I also went for really hard snow. The boys made a "cave" in loose snow that collapsed on them once, but with the thin roof, they got out with only pride as the casualty. This means that one ought to check their work. Hope that you get to try these! JB

Hi Cliff! I will try to look up your article! Is it on line? Our Troop was featured in Boy's Life for Oct 2002 for a trip to climb Orizaba in Mexico. That was kind of contrived as I had the Scouts to write their stories periodically in internet cafes back to the local newspaper (the trip was conceived and the logistics run by the Scouts themselves). I then organized the material and approached Boy's Life. The surprise there was that the staff had little idea of what that kind of "high adventure" entailed, and wanted to be sure that the Scouts wore their uniforms while on the climb. The mountain is only 18,800 feet high on ice and snow...that would have been a sight (ha!). They were actually quite helpful, but we had to do a lot of editing with them on technical matters. We were also just informed that the Troop will again be in BL for a mountaineering rescue we helped out in last August. Again I helped to edit the piece to tone down the sensationalism. My suggestion, work with the writer who will contact you - and edit what they write! JB

Still a lot of the posts here involve going to a Scout Camp of one sort or another. So here are a few alternatives that I have done with my Scouts, and one that I am planning on. All these involve significantly more work than collecting money, making a reservation and showing up at a Scout Camp. However, when you drag your youth leaders through this, they are left with knowledge on trips that they can personally run for themselves in later life. (the old Chineese proverb about teaching a man to fish rather than giving a fish...). These trips are also far more rewarding, less crowded, and provide more skills learned by doing. Some of my Scouts have gone on to plan surprising personal trips, such as climbing Devil's Tower, or rafting the Clark's Fork. Backpack any of the Rocky Mt Wilderness areas. My favorites are 1. Wiminuche in CO where you take the Narrow Guage Train at Durango to Elk Park. We went to Chicago Basin and out and rode the train back. 2. Rawah Wilderness N, CO (not too crowded and lots of fishing), 3. Any other Wilderness area (I want to go to the Bighorns in WY which are nearly deserted, though Bob Marshall has the "Chineese Wall" and there are the Wind Rivers. Too many areas, too little tiime. Peak Bagging: A popular and very easy logistical trip is to pick 1-2 mountains (The Colorado 14ers and 13ers are easy for us), and guidebooks are found at Amazon.com. These trips generally involve driving to the campsites nearly always found at the base of the mountains, camping, getting up way early and hiking the peak (only one 14er, Crestone Needle has any real climbing) to summit just before noon then racing the thunderstorms back to camp. The kids love these. If you are winter nuts - they are good for ski mountaineering with appropriate knowledge of avalanche ssafety. We have done Long's Peak, Mt. Bierstadt, Quandry Peak, Gray's and Torries, Crestone Needle, among others, and done several 13ers as well. (Bierstadt and Quandry lend themselves to ski touring.) We cheat on river trips as we have our own boat and access to lots of others, so we run several white water raft trips per summer as well. As private boaters, we have access to fantastic rivers. The kids earn Swimming, Canoeing (on a lake) Whitewater, etc. They are also taught how to read the water, boatmanship and how to run the boats themselves, something that they really like. We've done the Snake, Green, Upper Colorado, North Platte, Westwater, etc. I am thinking of taking them down the Grand Canyon from Diamond Creek down to Lake Meade as the permits are easier to get. For the older kids we can do caving: We got to know and co-opt local NSS cavers and now have become one myself. We have a few easy caves (the so called sacrifice caves) that are recommended that we take them on. We also arranged a last Spring Break to do some of the Wild Caves in Carlsbad NP. As the older guys go on these, it is something for the younger ones to look to do. Find yourself a caver! Rock Climbing is always a good trip. However, location is a problem. WY is blessed so we do this a lot. However, other councils often have a designated climbing person who can often be conned to hosting your Troop for a few days. As I work in OK during the winters (sigh) I work with an excellent couple of guys in the Last Frontier Council where we have hosted lots of Troops. Cliff Golden brought his guys to WY last summer for a do-it-yourself road trip that took them backpacking, climbing, touring Mesa Verde and other neat adventures. See his post above!!! His Scouts were 'jazzed' when they arrived in COLD WY where we shamefacedly had them to climb with us in our local gym. I would be glad to help any interested in the Rockies area with ideas on what to do, where to go, and how to go about it. The thing to do is to try it small then try it big! Have Conficence! Its addictive in a very healthy way, as well as cheaper! JB

Well, if any Troop from UK would like to come to WY for an adventure, we would take care of them! We have rafting, climbing, backpacking and mountaineering. JB

Hi Dave Welcome to Wyoming. Have you thought about any of the fabulous bacpacks available in the park? There are also some great canoe trips on Lewis and Shoshone lakes available in addition to the tourist crawl. My Troop is a WY Troop and if you are interested in other than the tourist moving parking lot stuff, email be back. JB

Hi Folks My opinion is that if you have some expertise in a particular outing that you have the responsibility to share it with other Scout Troops as often as possible. My Troop has a great deal of experience with rock climbing and white water rafting, as well as having a perfect venue to share with other group. We have shared our experience with Troops and Crews from Colorado and Oklahoma, and think it as almost a requirement that we help our fellow Scouts. This is an attitude that helps shape our Scouts in the appropriate ways, as well as making them feel that what they have learned is important. My opinion is that if your Troop has some expertise in a subject, that you should share it and improve the knowledge of as many Scouts as you can. To do less is to simply be selfish. So, if any of you would be interested in what we have to offer, let me know, and set up a trip! JB

Hi Folks I caught onto this thread in an odd moment, but would like to offer my 2 cents. I know that Philmont is considered to the be the ultimate Scout experience, but I really think that it is an easy answer for a Troop that wants to do something that is memorable, that they could easily do themselves for less money, have a better adventure, and give the kids a better learning experience on planning and going on a recreational activity that they themselves create for themselves. Sure Philmont is a great place to go, but it is in realty a Disneyland for Scouts! It is a pre-programed set up that with a bit of planning and research a Troop could on their own make the Scouts themselves plan and go on an adventure of their own for less cost and greater fun. Alright, I am the ultimate do-it-yourself type, but when you can offer the training, the practice, and the wherewithall to let them plan their own real multistate trip, you will have done more for them than having given them a pre-planned, canned trip to what amounts to a Disneyland with boots. There are hundreds of Wilderness Areas in the US with fantastic opportunities from backpacking to sea kayaking to mountaineering that Scouts can do for THEMSELVES without submitting to the "pay someone else to do it for you" syndrome. My Troop has done some rather fantastic things and been in Boy's Life for it (Oct 2002 Orizaba (?)) and have done it all on our own without paying some other outfit to plan for us to go. OK, go to Philmont if you like, as it is really a great place for young Scouts and is in the culture, but if you would like more, it only takes some research, some teaching and an adventurous mind to provide the Scouts with real 'make it themselves without buying a package trip' experience. Everyone can just buy a trip from a travel agent...but the Scouts originally were the real do-it-yourself-while-learning group. Be tradional! Hey, if you hav'nt done it before, I will be very glad to help you set up your own great trip just for the fun. Email me back! JB

Hopps This is the case with most areas in ARC. In Wyo, where most everyone is into the outdoors, my company (through ARC) and NOLS are the only providors. In OK, my wintering grounds, I and one other are the only instructors. I almost became providor for the OK and CO Sierra Club, but was co-opted by NOLS who now provides WFA for the entire Sierra Club nationwide (BSA take note that the Sierra Club which has been running wilderness trips longer than BSA has been in existance with adults requires WFA as the minimum). You should try for those contacts (which are few and far between) to see what can happen. Unfortunately, you may be out of luck. The next best thing is to take the best ARC class you can and get the following books which you should study. WFA by Fogerty (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/076270490X/qid=1101736846/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/104-8876004-2584741) and the one by NOLS (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0811728641/qid=1101736846/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8876004-2584741?v=glance&s=books) I would be glad to try to arrange one of our (HPOI) instructors to teach WFA to your Troop, but you would somehow have to get him there, and put him up for the two days of instruction, which would lead to more cost (even though our prices are pretty low ($70/person). If you were able to get the whole district or council for it, it might be worth it. NOLS does this but they really are expensive. JB

Hi Guys I am looking for a Troop or information on one in the Last Frontier Council that was planning on going to Boundry Waters and had asked me about running a WFA class for them. Does anyone know who they are, and would you mind having them to reply if they are still interested? Time is running out for this fall semester, though I would be glad to run one for the council

Hopps, It is great to have a first aid kit, especially if you will actually carry it. One of my original WFR instructors, an ER Doc said he only carried a few bandaids and duct tape...but he did carry it everywhere. I have two kits, one for the car (which stays there) and a smaller one that I carry in my pack, which goes with me. On the river we have an even larger one complete with a backboard. Most important is to know how to use it properly. Below, are two links I found for WFA and WFR classes in Illinois. The National Safety Council is probably your best bet. They purport to offer a WFA which is only 16 hours long. The other one shows that an Illinois Univ has offered WFR (a far more extensive class up to 100 hours long) in the past. It has a phone number. For a CPR Mask: If you carry a first aid kit bigger than your pocket, I would suggest the following CPR mask. A mask of this type will protect you from the victim vomiting back on you during CPR if they are actually going to respond. It has an oxygen inlet that the EMTs will know how to use if you are working on a CPR victim: http://www.cpr-pro.com/2000P50.html The following seem to offer WFA or WFR in Illinois. You should email them to see what they have, or if they know of a course that will run near you. Getting this kind of course is very important for anyone involved in taking kids out even an hour away from EMS help: National Safety Council 1211 Spring Lake Dr., Itasca, IL 60143-3021 800-621-7619Fax: 630-285-1315 630-285-1121 Web Site: www.nsc.orgE-Mail: kennedyj@nsc.org Number of Employees: 600 Ownership: Nonprofit Membership Organization Distribution: Service Company Direct CEO: Gerard Scannell/President Marketing: Christine A. Hoffman/Exhibit Sales Mary Beth Murray/Marketing Operations: Thomas W. Planek/Director, Research & Statistical Services Training, First Aid trf The National Safety Council offers comprehensive, state-of-the-art training materials in first aid, CPR, bloodborne pathogens, first responder, wilderness first aid, and AED. A IL Univ that has in the past offered WFR: http://www.wiu.edu/release.sphp?id=1062 An ARC sites indicates that there may be a WFA class in St Louis MO restech.wustl.edu/~outing/leaders/wfa.application.doc Another resource that you should access is the following guy from SIU whose program may teach WFA. At least he could help you find a good course: Touch of Nature Environmental Center Southern Illinois University Carbondale, Illinois 62901-6888 Phone: (618) 453-1121 Fax: (618) 453-1188 Email: tonec@tonec.siu.edu Good Luck and go for it. JB

Just an announcement for an opportunity that might be of interest: High Plains Outdoor will be presenting an ARC certified Wilderness First Responder course, a full 100 hour comprehensive course with outdoor sessions the Spring Break week of March 14-20, 2005 in Laramie, WY. Cost of the course is $350 which is about half the price that NOLS/WMI charges. They are planning to make a deal with a local motel, University Inn Motel for a special price for out of town WFR students,

Hi Folks Finally, someone asking about WFA. I have my WFA teaching cert from ARC, and we regularly teach WFA. I am also a scouter and ASM for Troop 136 out of Laramie WY, but spend the fall and spring in OK (for a real job). I have been trying hard to get the local OK council to advertise and let me teach a WFA for the leaders but to little interest! Finally, an OK Troop has stepped forward to do this in Dec or so as they want to go to Boundry Waters (wise choice). Though I have also tried hard, the local council for Laramie has also shown little interest!! I don't know where you are all from, but would consider helping with a class if you were able to get together. The ARC class outline is from the Transylvania chapter, but with a great deal more thrown in from our Albany Co Chapter. We include lots of hands on exercizes with gear that you normally would carry, and are actively planning to do this class (16 hrs + 2 hr CPR) in the outdoors. My outfitter also teaches WFR (though only in the Spring in Laramie where you pretty much have to live so far - though we are considering a straight through class for Spring Break) and High and Low angle Rock Rescue (which my Scouts and I used in a rescue this summer). Please reply if you are interested. John Bowen

Thought I'd like to chime in on this as I've been a caver for many years as well as an NSS member, and as such teach my Scouts in that fashion. Bob White is correct in his safety considerations with regards to sleeping in caves. Cavers will often sleep in caves as well, however my point is the following. What are the effects on the cave? Caves are the ultimate in n

Hi Hopps Glad to see you are in climbing too. I found Metolius gloves, but not Franklin gloves. Can you give a URL for it? As I remember, you live in a flat state. What climbing resources do you have available? My Troop will be on the Snake R on Memorial Day, then climbing at Vedauwoos. You should bring your Troop or Patrol and we will host you! JB

HI guys Well, this discussion section has lasted for nearly a year. In only a month, on Memorial Day our Troop is running their now annual Troop 136 Memorial Day Family Whitewater Snake Trip. We have found one of the few places near Jackson to camp for free, on the Hoback River. We are using this raft trip as a lure to get new members. I am looking forward to camping with the families this time and let the ASMs run the Troop camp. The older Scouts will take all our whitewater boats for themselves to run with the new kids and make all us oldsters go in the oldest boat anyway, so let them camp by themselves. Anyway it will be good to start the 136 rafting season with a big bang. Look for our photos on the net! JB

Well OK, as long as everyone is talking about the whole summer. Additionally, we will be running our Troop members through our Guide Training Course for my Whitewater rafting company along with the new guides in May. The Troop will then head out on its annual whitewater run on the Snake River over the Memorial Day weekend. There the Scouts can practice their boatman skills while running our own rafts, which we do. Here one of our boats run by one of our Scouts: https://www.floatographs.com//PHP/DisplayPhotos.php?SID=0&selCompany=Private&TripDate=5%2F24%2F03+00%3A00%3A00&selTime=13%3A44%3A00&index=40&Guide=UNKNOWN&BoatNo=51&Guide=UNKNOWN&NextBtn=Later+time We are currently applying for private permits for other rivers including the Colorado through Westwater Canyon, and will do several rock climbs and a backpack trip as well. JB

Our Troop is making plans to visit some of the Carlesbad wild caves for vertical caving over spring break.

Hello hotdesk FL Scout is correct. Are you setting up several trips or just one. Let me know, as I have had some 30 years of High Adv to work with, and am an climbing-rafting outfitter in addition to being an ex-SM JB

Buffalo2 Do you know if this rule applies to established set ups in Scout Camps, or to all Troops in the field. I am aware that alot of the very stringent rules set by BSA apply to the set routes in Scout Camps, such as the rules involving no use of personal gear, etc. However, in the past these have not applied to Troops that go out on Troop outings for climbs. Where are the rules published? Thanks JB

How do you get your Troop prepaired to go on your river trips, what special programs do you do for the Scouts? Also, what preparations do you make for safety on the river?