johndaigler

b- You need to get over yourself. I'll put ten talented, qualified, knowledgeable Scout Leaders of any position into a room with any one of the Requirements and still come out with a minimum of 5 different understandings. The book is a tool. You don't get to say, "I read it this way and the rest of you are wrong." What qualifies as appropriate to any given Scout doesn't depend on the rule. It depends on the boy, the problem to be solved and the adults helping solve that problem. How dare you say to me or to any other Scouter that because I see the situation differently than you do or that if I disagree with the BSA over a single policy that I need to leave the Boleta Clubhouse and find somewhere else to play. Were you a bully on the playground, too? You find it inappropriate for me to participate in the conversation because I don't genuflect when you pronounce judgement? -- Not even if your initials were BP! You're not even as true to the rulebook as you say we should all be. Your quoting of the rule is only half complete, and then you INTERPRET just how much the Scout should pay attention to the Workbook he's told he must use. Make up your mind! Or do you just want to follow some of the rules and interpret others?? It's simple for me. I never insulted you. I disagreed with you. For some people it's difficult to do one without the other. I'm disappointed that that's how you've dealt with me. Again, you being right doesn't make me wrong. You're behavior and displayed attitude toward others and their thoughts makes you wrong! jd

BW - like I said I don't think there's right or wrong here and the difference between your "door" and my "hurdle" is, in the end, probably unnoticeable to a Scout who has made the journey all the way up to the Eagle project. A hurdle isn't a barrier, it's just a door at the top of the stairs. What I've intended all along is that we assess each Scout and each Project so as to set the door(hurdle) at the appropriate height to allow the Scout to meet the expectation of doing his best. The open door metaphor is perfect. I'm just not in favor of opening the door AND carrying the boy through. Maybe because I see myself as a reasonable man (and professionally trained advocate for teenagers), that I wouldn't focus on the need to "...control adults who try to misuse the program to punish or hinder scouts..." I'm not a man who will raise barriers in front of a boy -- but, I guess, I am one who will work with a boy to set, AND THEN MEET, challenges that require doing their best. I guess the Spirit of Scouting is as gray as the rule book! We can help the boys grow using different methods and see the changes in many different aspects of their lives. Different boys experiencing the same thing still grow different amounts in different ways. Gained experience, I agree, can be said to equal growth - that's certainly an admirable goal, and worthy of the name "success". Challenging a boy to increase that experience seems admirable to me, as well. "Accuse" seems more negative to me than what I thought I was writing. Perhaps my agitation at being told to read the rulebook was more apparent than I thought. OR perhaps, it was being told that disagreeing with the wise and wonderful OZ made any thoughts I had "incorrect arguments . . . just rationalizations to justify the way you are doing things even in the face of a straightforward presentation of the facts." My intent was to say there's more to every question and every answer than, "The rulebook says..." In fact, there's more to every rule than, "The rulebook says..." What's the old saying? Instead of applying the rulebook to the child, we need to apply the child to the rulebook. jd

boleta, and all you rule book readers, First, let's give each other credit for being able to read. Disagreeing with each other and judging each other don't have to be the same thing. We seem to have strayed from Noah's original question and into a debate over whether the "Requirements" should be read with Fundamentalist eyes. I'm not gonna try to prove you wrong about your reading of the rules. But, I do believe you're wrong if you think this, or any other, rulebook has no room for interpretation. If this organization's foundation is a rule book, than how do we account for, and celebrate Scouting's Spirit? How do we write into a "Requirement" that we hope, want, and indeed, expect Scouts to "Do Their Best"? How do we write into the "Requirements" that we demand The Best of ourselves? "Obedient" is only one piece of the Law. Can you imagine the Forum if we start judging which of the 12 should supercede the others? The rulebook is fine. Though it's written in black ink, I see lots of gray in there. For example, going back to Noah's situation, the book is gray because it forces us to decide what the "Requirements" mean when they say "Must Use the ESPLSW", and we know the ESPLSW clearly expands upon the meaning of the Requirement and establishes additional Limitations on the Scout's Project. Again, I'm comfortable with you choosing to read the rules the way you do. But, just because you're right, it doesn't make me wrong. I know I'm doing my best, for myself and my Scouts, if I keep thinking even after the period ends the "Requirement". If one MUST supercede the other, than I'll choose the Spirit of Scouting over the Rules of Scouting. Wrong? No. Different? I can live with that. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

It's all about Quality not gender. If we build good program, they will come. Some people will have pre-conceived ideas, but when you and your Cubs "wow 'em", nothing else matters. If you and your leadership get that, and work together to continue the quality program year after year, then Cubs, parents and others don't care if you're male, female or green!!

boleta - How can the 2004 "Requirements" supercede the ESLSPW when they specifically Require the Scout to use the ESLSPW?? From the ESLSPW>>>>> "The Requirement As stated in the Boy Scout Handbook: While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to your religious institution, school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than the BSA.) The project idea must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your unit leader (Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, Venturing crew Advisor), unit committee, and by the council or district advancement committee before you start. You must use this Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, No. 18-927D, in meeting this requirement. Originality Does the leadership service project for Eagle have to be original, perhaps something you dream up that has never been done before? The answer: No, but it certainly could be. You may pick a project that has been done before, but you must accept responsibility for planning, directing, and following through to its successful completion. Limitations Routine labor (a job or service normally rendered) should not be considered. Work involving council property or other BSA activity is not permitted. The project also may not be performed for a business or an individual, be of a commercial nature, or be a fund-raiser. (Fund-raising is permitted only for securing materials or supplies needed to carry out your project.)

If the Helipad is "ALREADY IN USE" (!!!!!!!!) then I'd disqualify the project on POOR PLANNING, but the challenge factor goes WAAAAAYYYYY UUUUUPPPP!!!!!!!!!

Eamonn - I know I'm focusing on the wrong part of your post, but the Eagle and his Dad painted a big circle and an "H"????? I guess I'm just thinking about this all wrong . . . I always thought the Eagle's project was kind of a culminating effort, displaying growth that only came with sincere effort and exploration in the variety of areas Scouting offers achievements, opportunities and experiences. I know it's not intended to showcase "Scout" skills, that's not what I'm saying. But if it can be planned in a day, and completed in a day . . . ? ? ? I know this is gonna sound rude, but this painting seems more in line with the expectations I have for my Wolves when we go looking for worthwhile service opportunities!?????? I'm not old enough to tell you how it was back in the day (at least, that's the story I'm sticking with!!), but what the heck are these boys gonna be saying about back in their day and what's gonna pass for an Eagle project when my sons are finally (still a few years away) teenagers???? jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

BW - I'm not trying to disagree - especially about semantics or sarcasm - all I mean, is that, depending upon which resource, which interpretation, which "spirit and intent" we subsribe to, it might be difficult to suggest that any Eagle's project plan be redesigned or redirected. AND, that I was disappointed that ANY school didn't already have a flag pole and needed a Scout's help to realize they needed to put one up. IMHO, this Scout should be redirected.

To compare public schools to private school enterprises is a loooooong stretch. Use of the word "business" for both cases can't be seen to compare the two in any useful way. The fact that this Scout's "organization in need" doesn't have a flag pole speaks a great deal to the variety of private schools in this country. It seems hard to believe that we would see convincing a "school" that it needs a flag pole is worthy of being an Eagle Project. What, BTW, has this "school" organization been thinking up to this point?? I agree that the Scout needs to be redirected for his project. The gray areas of "appropriateness" are moot, in this instance.

It looks like your son's behavior is a way of asking you to differentiate and separate your dual roles of scouting adult and father. His actions seem, to me, to be saying that he's looking for one and you keep taking the other. My suggestion to you is to "keep busy" Scouting with some of the other boys and let your son choose the Scouting he wants to share with you. Laurie's comment about asking her boy if it would be OK with him if she took on some Leadership responsibilities s

yeah, it seems to happen every now and then, but when a post is messed up it can stay that way for 5, 6, 7 edits. Gets a little frustrating. I've learned to copy all my posts before sending them, just so I'm ready to edit by pasting over the messed up one with a fresh copy. Good luck. jd

eisley - Where have we seen that the "dramatic" drop occurred after the policy change. Obviously, I haven't seen much about Canada's dilemma except right here. It seemed from the Globe and Mail article that the drop off was already happening before the change. I guess we'd have to look at year by year changes. I'm not arguing that the new policy didn't hurt their numbers, I'm just looking for info to create some perspective. I don't think you could argue that Zeiger's piece was inflammatory and hyperbolic. And, it's very possible, the Globe and Mail could be avoiding a key issue, but they made it seem like a local issue with a limited number of camps closing and upsetting those locals and others with associations to specific camps. Of course, the truth is in the middle, but where? jd

Hunt - I like it, though I think we 'd need to lengthen that list of yours a bit to create some extra room for personal choosing. We could definitely add the Scouting Heritage and Scouting Traditions ideas to your list. jd

FB, thanks for the weather report... I don't miss (the) little cat feet. NJCS, can ya keep up? jd

Trail Day, thanks for the link. Sad for Scouts Canada! Can someone speak to how much of this downsizing and property selling has BSA had to do?? We face many of the same issues as Scouts Canada. I know Schiff was sold (my Woodbadge Dad nearly cried). Going back to the original thread-creating-post,...it's interesting (and perhaps a defining point) that the "Globe and Mail" doesn't mention anything that resembles Mr. Zeiger's focus. Just because event B follows event A, doesn't mean that A caused B. Though, I'm sure, there are many Canadian Scouters disappointed in the "liberalizing" of traditions and standards, it would be hard to determine how large of an impact that has had on the already declining enrollments. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

(Sorry for this , but I'm watching the Olympics!!!) A " 3m Synchronized Springboard" MB???? Where DO they invent these "unigue" sports???????????

(Since I tried 8 times, without success, to edit and correct my post, here it is as a whole . . .) agreed. Interesting that an American 19 yr.old feels so informed about and justified in his judgemental opinions of a private organization in another country. I wonder how he reacts when Canadians opinionate about BSA or YAF?!?!?!? I'd like to hear from a Canadian Scout or people who are closer to the subject - and hopefully less pre-agenda'ed. I'd be curious to hear the data about declining enrollment previous to the "opening of the gates" policy change. If you've seen any of my posts, you'll know I believe we need to work toward more tolerance and understanding of each other. But, I don't think BSA needs to totally redefine itself as that article says Scouts Canada did, but there is no doubt that we'll change and grow. If there's any truth at all to Mr. Zeiger's article, we obviously need to be careful. Though, I guess we didn't need his "the sky is falling" piece to point that out to us! YIS jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Grrrrrrrr...(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/08/12/batblitz/index.html Who knew that 25% of the mammals on this planet are . . . BATS!?!?!?!?!?!?! How about an "Animals of the Night" MB?

TX, I hope you didn't pony up the $3 they wanted for article access!! The article could be found in several other places with a little web-surfing! I didn't mean to come on too strong, but it felt to me that you were shootin fish in a barrel -- A sixteen year old saying something that makes our teeth grate?? Seems like an occupational hazard -- and a parental one!!!! The whole article was terribly biased and sarcastic - a disappointing (though not unusual) approach to selling newspapers. A little open-mindedness and respect might have made for a better, more informative, less inflammatory article. I'm not gonna try to explain or defend atheism or the camp's efforts. I can't say that I "get it" any more than I get "fundamental Christianity" or "fundamental Islam". I just think there's enough confusion and disagreement concerning religion in the BSA. We needn't bother looking for opportunities to "start in" with each other. You can see that Merlyn immediately jumped to a counter point - and in a way that will probably lead to further posts that raise the angst level. I've only been visiting these forums for a few weeks, but I've gone back and read old posts. You all have been down this path several painful times . . . Any hope of stoppin' this train before it leaves the station again????????? jd

Maybe. Or maybe, just a 16 yr. old kid who's getting asked a question by a strange adult with an agenda. Did he go out of his way to get this printed or was he just responding to some reporter asking, "Why is this better than Boy Scout Camp?" What kind of question do you think the reporter asked? What answer do you think the reporter was looking for? We've all seen enough with reporters to know that what's in print in not necessarily reality - particularly when it comes to word for word quotes. What's TXscoutdad doin, readin the St. Paul Pioneer Post? The next post is gonna be from someone in MN, thinking that you're a "thin skinned non-athiest" . . . (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Thanks all. Can't say I'm not disappointed but I certainly understand several reasons why BSA would set such parameters. I just wish I had a clearer idea how to get a couple of these projects done. From what I've seen locally, there's a great deal of duplication of purchases for items rarely used yet not shared. This spends money that could better be spent elsewhere. And less practical, but maybe dearer to my heart, is a noticeable loss of songs and singing - campfires and elsewhere. (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Interesting that a Scout's peers and organization aren't seen as a "community". Is that a written policy,(boleta- I see you included it as if it's written into policy. Or are those your words?) or an unwritten tradition? Helping a district or council full of scouts seems like a great way to help a community - even if it's indirect.

I'm not sure if there's a traditional process that I'm not following, but . . . I have a few ideas I'd like to share. My boys won't be working toward Eagle for years and there's a couple of things that I think would qualify as Eagle Projects that would be helpful sooner rather than later. Plus, I'm guessing that some scouts struggle with deciding on a good Eagle Project, though I'm not sure if there are standards that these ideas wouldn't meet. I'd like to hear your comments or share other ideas for Eagle Projects that you'd like to see some Scout attempt. 1)(There are probably some of these in existance, but...) Develop an inventory, and sharing process, for equipment that is seldom used, but on occasion wanted by almost every Pack/Troop in the area (equipment necessary to teach a particular achievement, or only necessary for special occasions). This equipment could be housed by the District or Council. And, yes, it would mean work for council office staff which would have to maintain the process after establishment, but the benefit would be large, especially in areas (everywhere?) where money is tight. 2)Gather together an area-wide Scout Choir (and all the volunteering adults necessary to make this work) and record a large number of Scout songs, that could be burned as CDs and shared and used on a National level. Any thoughts?

mk - Great post - right on target on every point!!!