johndaigler

Number Call-Out Activity level: LOW Needed: Large activity room, lots of players (the more, the better) A leader calls out a number, such as "three" to the group, and everyone scrambles to get into groups of three. Quickly, the leader calls another number to form other sizes of groups, and continues rapidly as players scramble. Variation 1: The leader tells players that every new combination must not include players from previous combinations. Variation 2: The leader asks people to find others with similar characteristics, for example: Find everyone who has the same kind of pet as you. Find everyone with the same color of eyes as you. Find everyone with the same birthday month as you. Find everyone with the same last digit in their phone number as you. jd

Backpacker, (I knew I'd get this comment from somone, also the one from Eamonn. You're not wrong about my post, but I would argue . . .) I've been neck deep in disagreements with Rooster and others. And, not so long ago I would have fallen into the same trap that seems to have caught a couple of others. This important topic (and others) are complicated because they are at the core of what each of us believe. If we lose our conversation in emotions that result in hurtful, insulting comments, then we lose something more important than someone's ego, we lose their ideas. As far as referees, I think I know what you're saying but we run the risk of thinking that you have to "get caught" to be doing the wrong thing. I'll bet you don't teach your boys that. Why would we accept it from each other? I don't think we need outsiders to step in and tell us how to behave. Now, I suppose you could argue that that's what I did in my last post. I'd agree with you if that was my first, but I was already involved in the conversation. So as part of the conversation, I feel it's OK for me to ty to stear that conversation. Aren't you more interested in their ideas than their insulting judgements of others? Eamonn, No doubt Rooster can crow for himself!! I was just trying to protect Foto and BadenP from Rooster's "You speak for Tolerance, but you're being Intolerant of me and my Ideas" lesson. I had to learn it last month, and since it's rather humbling to have hypocrisy shoved up your nose, I thought I would save them the angst! Rooster, it's difficult to grasp that boys are most in need of men because that's been western civilization's tradition for thousands of years and look where we are. Boys become men no matter what anyone does for them or to them. The problem is that being a man is not enough. It's not enough, even to be a man of good character. We need to enlarge and improve the definition of "Man". It's men and their attitudes and behaviors that cause the world most of it's conflicts, most of it's anguish. For centuries, power has been in the hands of boys trained by men to be men. I think we need a new reference for our training manual!!! If we can become more, we might just save ourselves. Let's start one Scout at a time. jd

Guys, let's put the sticks away. There's no need to verbally thrash someone because you disagree with their ideas. I didn't read where Rooster insulted anyone. Make your case, give your thoughts; but judgements about people have in the past, and will in the future, just get in the way of dialogue. Likewise, let's not get caught up in grammar, language usage and semantics. Several of us have used "mentor" incorrectly -- I believe the intended meaning was fairly clear throu

Men make great mentors for boys! That's one of the most important facets of our program. But let's not try to place more value on the mentoring that men can do for boys vs. the mentoring that women can do for boys. Traditionally, we have this strong "father figure" role model that evey boy needs (would benefit from). But that same tradition, doesn't necessarily do justice to a strong "mother figure". We tend to see "mothers" (female elementary teachers, etc.) as "good" for younger children, for example our cute little Cubs. But, as a boy grows up, he "needs a MAN in his life" (fathers, sports coaches, male secondary teachers, etc.). That model doesn't fit our society anymore. And, even if you're silently wishing for the good ol' days, that life model minimized not only girls and women, but it also kept doors closed for boys and minimized their growth into adulthood. Monoliths like BSA don't move quickly, but it's great that we're moving toward even more improved mentoring by carefully de-gendering our leadership roles. If boys of all ages didn't need increased and improved (that's a terrible phrase, but I think you know what I'm trying to say) "Female" mentoring in their lives, we men would understand women better!!!! And (carefully stepping on strange turf), I'd be ready to believe the same truth holds for girls benefitting from male mentors. Rooster, I wouldn't be too worried about, "The next logical step/conclusion to your supposition is the Boy Scouts of America should not be so narrow minded as to serve boys only." It's A logical step, but not THE logical step. We're just not good enough to pull off that interesting concept. The present Adult Leadership generation isn't capable of that complicated step. We're just not "Human" enough -- we're all either "too Male" or "too Female". I'm not saying that we need to become less of what we are -- we just need to become more of what we aren't. Maybe our children's children will be so good at parenting and mentoring and "being Human" that they'll consider, and successfully implement, Scouting with boys and girls. I'm thinking that it's going to be their worry not ours. jd

Zip, Interesting can of worms that you're trying to open. I'm VERY curious how it will spill out!!! Let me throw in my two cents, before the place gets crowded and I have to go get some aspirin!!! Please forgive me ahead of time for stepping on toes, or disagreeing with anyone (including the BSA) who knows more than I do. I mean no disrespect. I only mean to offer my thoughts. IMHO, American Scouting, while a Reverence based program, is not a religious program. We don't teach religious beliefs, we encourage (expect?) boys to see religious reverence as character building and to find strength and growth in their own faiths. At the same time, I see it as a facet of our program to encourage (expect?) acceptance of others' reverence and faiths. Personally, I'm comfortable with Graces, Benedictions and other, usually non-denominational, "prayers", songs, and discussions that focus on reverence without singling out (and therby raising above others?) specific pillars of specific faiths. The question (and answer) is actually, I think, easier for me because my group is religiously mixed. My parameters are defined somewhat by a need to be tolerant and accepting of others and their family's choices. It may actually be more complicated for you in a more homogenous group where the expectation of respect for diversity can be comfortably under emphasized. You said the conversation included, "He said that he could not support us meeting at the church if we could not mention that Jesus was the one true god and savior. I told his that we had to be religiously neutral, as long as we recruited from public schools. I told him that all the members of our den were Christians. And that I was sure that it would not be a problem, but that I could not promise him that that would always be the case." This is a very real problem in my eyes -- one that would have me looking for a new place to meet. While mentioning Jesus is not in itself inappropriate, I would suggest that if you define him as "the one true god and savior", then you have stepped over a line that shouldn't be crossed over by a BSA leader. Even if all of you in the room agree, that act risks minimizing some of the boys in my group. Additionally, I see it as limiting your boys, as well, but others don't see it that way. IMHO, the BSA doesn't want to accept a role in raising one religious group over others. Even getting beyond the questions why, when and how often Jesus would play an important part in your Den meeting, I would wonder why the pastor's specific definition would be necessary? I would suggest that you do your boys no disservice and you do the program a very real very positive service by acting as if your unit IS religiously diverse. I would suggest that every BSA leader's approach to questions of religion be similarly considered. respectfully, jd

Great stories everyone - thanks for sharing. It's interesting and important to remember that invariably Scouting ties last lifetimes, if not generations!! But, you've made me think along a different line . . . Can we tell the same stories about ourselves in everyday working situations with our Scouting peers?? The reason I ask is that I know I would definitely react positively to an unknown Scout in uniform -- for all the same reasons discussed in the original thread. But, I might not automatically feel that same bond, or be so generous of spirit, with Unit peers or when reading posts in forums like ScouterInteractive, etc. Now, I know I'm not the only one. But, I'm wondering if there are any thoughts (or cures) out there? I know the old saying "Familiarity breeds contempt", but I'm hoping it's (I'm) not that simple. john

Great stories everyone - thanks for sharing. But, you've made me think along a different line . . . If your interested, follow my thinking in the new thread "Respect for peers in/out of uniform" jd

9Muckraker7, You ended your post with >>>> "but we would still need to do something constructive at the meetings." Are you asking for help with program ideas?? Are you saying you're still dedicated to using those three months of meeting time to study-up for the Camporee in addition to practice campouts - and what should you do? jd

Smoke20 - Bob White's thoughtful comment just got me thinking about how careful we need to be with our Cubs. No offense or judgement intended - just trying to be Helpful. jd CubbingCarol - Smoke says he's not coming back to read these comments, if you "speak" with him again, please relay my sentiments. john

The adults don't seem capable of getting together and talking it over. That's a shame because it's the only thing that will work to resolve the issue. If the two adults can't see clear to cooperating in the boy's best interest, the poor kid is probably better off not getting in between, even if that means not Scouting. There is probably a plan for visitation and sharing custody - won't that have an impact on the discussion? How about a similar sharing of participation in Scouting? Where's the mom in this discussion, she's definitely going to have to be a participant in the plan, as well. What does the boy want? Maybe the grandfather is the right answer after all!!?? In the end, does the step-father have any real legal rights? I don't think so. And so, perhaps, the discussion needs to be between the father and the mother . . . Is the father really willing to play all his strongest cards??? Scouting is only one aspect of the boy's life. He could win this battle and end up losing more... I wish you all good luck! jd

Try making your preparation more "true to life"? Instead of practicing the skills, practice the "camporee"? . . . Pre-camporee campouts? What will the actual camporee competitive scenarios consist of? Can you better simulate them? Can you bring in previous years' judges to help make the practice sessions more realistic? It's an educational truth that practicing a whole sustains learning better than practicing pieces of the whole. The learning curve starts out slower, so be patient. The bonus is that the kowledge and skills are better retained for next year's camporee. When you're searching for realism in your practice, don't forget to include the distractions and potential complications that impact the competitions and competitors. "What?" . . . inclement weather, one the team members is a no-show due to sickness, omnipresent judges and observers, port-a-potties, cheering crowds of adoring parents and fans, trash-talking opponents, stressed out SMs, a team leader with a broken heart, or a failed math test, . . . BTW, you're teaching and learning is better done in occasionally repeated short focused training that spirals - returning again and again to skills that are mastered and expanded throughout the year - rather than cramming for the camporee final exam for the last three months. Be sure everyone is a master of atleast two skill/knowledge areas so there's a backup if you lose one of your guys in action!! HAVE FUN!!! jd

so, TigerDad, How did you resolve your concerns??? Have you ended up with Cubs who over the summer did "too much"?? My guess is that your program is a mix of Fun, achievements, electives, and other award activities (sports and academics, Leave No Trace, etc.). Are the boys enjoying it??? I know this is a day late, but . . . Since there are so many electives, and they can be repeated (with increased sophistication), and a Cub can earn additional arrow points, I find it hard to believe any boys have room and time for boredom. Keep it simple - keep it fun - (keep 'em movin'!) Are you going to graduate them together or celebrate individually, as they earn their Wolves?? My Pack has "graduation ceremonies". We don't even address Bobcat during the Tiger year, so we award Bobcat in November and Wolf at the Blue & Gold. I'm fighting hard to change this because it makes little sense to me, unless your ultimate focus is the convenience of planning Pack Meetings. Around here we have a tradition of making Pack Meetings three ring circuses - so there's little time to actually celebrate what the boys are efforting and achieving. Tomorrow night is a prime example!! -- "Scouting the Midway" Pack Meeting. We've had the boys working all month on Midway style games. Screwdrivers, hammers, planning games and parties, identifying tools -- all sorts of fun -- all sorts of achievements and electives successfully and joyfully accomplished. . . Unfortunately, tomorrow night instead of focusing on the boy's efforts and their games, we'll have a Moon Walk, a Dunk-the-Den-Leader Tank, hotdogs, popcorn, cotton candy, etc. We'll charge to play the boys' games (somebody's got to pay for the Moon Walk) and we'll give prizes out. Some Dens will give out penny candy to every participant, some will give out stuffed animals to high scorers . . . (Thinking ahead to tomorrow night has my frustration, sadness and headache building as I write this.) Needless to say, one of my prime objectives for this year is to affect some positive changes to our program. This "Troop Beverly Hills" thing would have my poor Silver Beaver of a father spinning on his head. Wish me luck, hopefully by the time my boys are Bears, we'll have an improved approach to program. Good Luck with your soon to be Wolves!! jd

Balding Eagle - We try to have our Wolves meet Thumper's standard as well. Observing isn't participating, for us, for this particular requirement. I doubt it's the only answer, but it's ours. If in doubt, and desperate to give our boys the opportunity to meet this requirement, I'd open a Den meeting outside in the yard. Participating in a simpler ceremony better fits our view of 2f, than observing a complicated formal ceremony performed by someone else. (Though, I also agree with Thumper on having them observe well done ceremonies.) jd (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

CubbingCarol - Bob White's thoughtful comment just got me thinking about how careful we need to be with our Cubs. No offense or judgement intended - just trying to be Helpful. jd

BW - SERIOUSLY CLEAR thinking!!!!! Well played!! Smoke and Carol - First welcome!!! Smart thinking, coming here. If you get help from BW and the rest, you'll save yourself tons of angst. No need to be paranoid, just careful and safety oriented. Like BW says, contact your councils and let your councils make the appropriate contacts and validate the process and the people involved. Even with that, it would be best if you devised a system where the letters actually travel through the Councils and the boys never bothered to discuss last names, addresses, phone numbers, school names, even school mascots, etc. (Consider how simple it would be to track a kid for whom you knew geographic locale (Scout District), grade (Den level), school (mascot), and just first name. Most of us are good people, but bad people aren't necessarily stupid - we can't make it easy for them.) Instead of fully addressing envelopes, the boys could just address them by first name (last initial if necessary, but even that isn't as safe as Bob #1 and Bob #2 or Bob A. and Bob B.) then toss them in a mailer and have your Council/district send it to the other Council/district for pick up by the other leader. (Plus you'll save money!) BTW, the idea of small gifts is OK, though I'd keep it Cub oriented like Council Strips, locale focused (When we went to the '73 Jamboree, we took small sealed bottles of water that had gone over Niagara Falls as our host gift to other scouts. I remember receiving a small pill bottle of Daytona Beach sand (it's white!) from one group of Scouts with whom we celebrated.), and other gifts that are "less personal". Be sensitive to the diversity in your organizations. If my boys were involved, Christmas presents would be inappropriate for some of them. Photos should, at most, only be labeled with first names. I'd suggest reading them as they go out and as they come in - at least for the first several round trips. Cubs are just old enough to say the wrong thing. For example, some of my guys still believe in Santa. Would every Scout in your Den NOT step on that?? Probably not on purpose, but it's just another level that you have to worry about your kids (emotional safety). Wish you luck - sounds like fun!!! I'd offer to participate but right now I've got 12 Wolves -- I'll wait till we split next month and consider it with just 6!! jd (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

BTW, is Ok for Very Tall Scoutmasters to have "minutes"????????

2CD - Here's my two cents - and the only validation I can offer my comments is that I'm in the same boat and my unit leaders and I have had all the discussions you're hearing now. My wolf Den is 12 going on 13. August has been very tiring and frustrating, though the boys keep smiling -- I'm looking forward to Oct. 1 for the offical split into two Dens. Even drawing it out that long, I believe, is a small disservice to the boys . . . Sounds like your program is engaging and successful. With 14 boys in your Den, you're putting that at risk (as well as the mental health of several of your adults!) I strongly agree with the suggestion to break your Den into two Separate Dens. Get the Pack Leadership suport you need to find the appropriate number of Den Leaders and Assts. Every year school children are thrown into a new mix. They make new friends and sometimes they keep their old ones or set them aside for a year until they're together again in the same class next year. It takes till about Lunch on the second day (most first days are half days without lunch!) for 7 yr olds to see themselves as part of the "new team". The Cubs won't feel any "separation anxiety" unless you adults spoon feed it to them. The adults all need to be strong enough to do the right thing for the Cubs. Your Cubs will deal with the split - They're there for the program. You're right, it will be the adults who struggle with the change, not the boys. It's going to be uncomfortable for some of the adults(Leaders and parents), but it's the right thing to do. We ask the boys to "Do Their Best", it's incumbant upon us to do the same. With all due respect, I don't see how anything but a complete split will be the adults' Best. Even if your boys don't get it or can't verbalize it, there's a huge difference between being 1/14th of a team experience and being 1/7th of a team experience. If your DL is the linchpin, keep him involved with planning for both groups - It's always a great idea to keep communication and planning very cohesive between same-level Dens. BUT, each group deserves the chance to develop into its own team with its own personality and peer mix. If you try to half-split them, you'll end up with greater issues. You'll be asking boys and parents to grow, but not too much - develop their own personalities, but not too much - become self-sufficient and independant, but not too much. (Sounds like dealing with teenagers!! Really, THIS is a bad idea! They'll all be teenagers soon enough!!) I suggest the clean break is healthier for everyone. Your two Dens will be immensely stronger and healthier than two sub-dens. I would further suggest that you don't, for your own mental health, make this a community discussion. Leaders need to lead. You and you Pack Leadership need to make the decision, find the new Leaders and sort the boys out appropriately. Too many cooks will definitely spoil this dish -- at the very least YOU'LL have indigestion for weeks. Hope it was worth at least two cents . . . Best of Luck! jd

Zippie - I can relate. My Wolf Den has grown from 7 to 12 Cubbies with our back to school recruiting efforts. We're struggling to find new leadership in order to split into two Dens, but you can imagine having meetings in my 10 month old house doesn't seem like such a good idea anymore! (I hope my wife doesn't read this thread or I'll be down talkin to the deacons in a day or two!!) One approach is to think of tomorrow as if it were a recruiting event or new parent meeting. How would you handle those opportunities? Remember, what works for someone else might not be YOUR best option. Here are some things to think about and perhaps be ready for: What do you imagine the deacons' concerns are going to be? (This is a great time to use your inside resource to know the questions before they get asked!!) Do you think their questions will be about BSA philosophy for Cubs and how that is/isn't consistent with the Church's thinking? Or are they more likely to be concerned about a bunch of running 7 yr olds' respect for their physical environment? Will you need to (and be able to) describe a typical meeting? Maybe having a copy or two of a month worth of meeting plans would be informative. Do you have your "Program Helps" handy?? Will you be able to "Leave NO Trace"? They might be so kind as to have storage for you, but you're likely to need to reassure them that although 7/8 yr olds can get a little noisy, everything they need(snacks, drinks, crafts, tools, pencils, papers, garbage, etc.) will come in and go out with them. What's the restroom situation? Wolves need one (more often than non-Den-Leaders imagine! !!) Are you ready to be responsible for cleanliness? Does your Church have a religious award committee? Is now a GOOD time to bring up the concept? (Sorry, but playing politics comes from my old days as a school administrator!!) Would you be comfortable asking if they would like to observe meetings until they are comfortable with your presence? Can you promise to provide an extra parent or two to help while the boys learn to respect and appreciate their new digs?? They have the home field advantage so I'd be ready to let them set the stage for you. Can you be flexible and prepared to do either a monologue or a Q/A session? Bells and whistles never hurt, but truth will win most days for you. I wouldn't suggest anything but honesty and sincerity. Be yourself!! It sounds like the Deacons will have a built in desire to be accomodating. Don't be nervous, just be confident that you and your boys can prove them right!! Two last points: Keep It Simple - Keep It Fun!! Do Your Best!! Wishing you tons of luck and your wife tons of sleep!!! jd

hey, everyone, I agree with everything we've said above. And I don't think I can add much to the wisdom and sentiment, other than to personalize it. Having just come from one of those tangled threads of misunderstanding, I can testify to our need to be careful...when we write posts, AND when we read posts. I thought I was being careful when I wrote (until my fingers suddenly disconnected from my brain in a bit of a pique!) but I realize now that I wasn't being as careful and generous when I read posts. And once that snowball started rolling down the hill ... I think Eamonn has a great point about PMs. After I banished myself from that last angst-filled thread, I PMed several participants. The apologies, corrections and clarifications made so much more sense than continuing the NON-sense that the public discussion had become. I think PMing is a great response to posts that "feel wrong". Clarifying them privately is much easier than out in the open, where the confusion grows more readily than it shrinks. Then, what gets posted publicly stays clearer and on topic. The saddest part of adding to the confusion is that it's easy to drag others down with you, or splash them with the muck. Even when it's other people in conflict, we too readily misunderstand and jump in neck deep. Not the most fun-filled lesson I've learned lately . . . but sometimes those are the ones that stay with you, and others notice as worth learning and remembering. Glad to be of service. ?????????? Catch ya' round the ol' Campforum. jd

"It is easier to adjust your sails than redirect the wind." But I've also seen it with an added little bit that comes in handy if the conversation heads toward "history changers" like Galileo, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Jr., Rosa Parks, BP, NASA scientists and astronauts, (and many, many others)etc. ... "It is easier to adjust your sails than redirect the wind. But sometimes, ya just gotta BE the wind!" Less practical, but more heroic. . . . Though, we know what often happens to heroes . . . jd (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

I've seen this attributed to Confucious and also described as an Arabian Proverb. The repetitive tongue twister nature of it creates a bit of chaotic fun, but once the kids get it, they keep it. He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool. Shun him. He who knows not, and knows that he knows not is a child. Teach him. He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep. Waken him. He who knows, and knows that he knows is wise. Follow him. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

The true art of growing up is leaving behind all that is childish while clinging dearly to all that is childlike.

I think the Scout Account really aids and motivates Scouts who can see their personal efforts bringing them closer to their target activity. A good plan is one that works for you and the other leaders who have to manage it and manage the unit's other funds so that essentials and program are supported as well as individual boys. Eamonn's comments made me remember an idea I've worked on over the last several years... We keep asking for $ and support from the same people over and over again. And it seems to be the same people who give of their time that end up being the most reliable fundraisers (one way or another), as well. And, I don't mean that to be critical of supporters who can't give time or money. (Pardon me while I walk on eggshells for a few days...I'm still reeling from a different thread.) What I mean to contribute to the conversation is that we need to find new ways to gather support from new sources. And, yes, I know and understand the BSA's restrictions and requirements. It's quite possible to work this out and maintain the integrity of our standards. In most urban/suburban areas there are huge shopping zones (malls, plazas, Mills, Outlets, etc.). These places gather together new sources of money and support(shoppers) for groups like ours, PTOs, charitable groups and other organizations that depend on public contributions. So, here's the idea...(and I've tried this and been narrowly shot down, but I think someone out there can find a way to make it work)...Establish one of those ubiquitous seller's carts that are found in every mall in America. Hire it out to all those groups looking for access to a great fundraising market. Take an administrative cut for expenses and to allow you to support your own org. of choice. Let's say 10% of net profit. An elementary school does a bake sale in the mall, raising $100 and you and your group make $10. The middle school sells wrapping paper and makes $1000 -- you make $100. The concept is simple. You win in consistent small ways. The efforting organizations win through access to large untapped groups of shoppers. Even, the mall wins because invariably the fundraising group motivates a bunch of their own tried and true supporters to come shopping and support this fundrasising effort - thus the mall gets additional revenue, as well. The details, however, can get complicated as you consider each organization's financial regs, as well as the mall mgmt's concerns and obligations. I've come very close to making this work in one of the largest shopping centers in the midwest. Of course, a detail here and a legal issue there and getting close can turn out to be no better than not trying. It certainly couldn't be an official BSA effort, but a private individual with a will and a little know how . . . jd

Bobwhite ... "Bad Judgements" (you didn't set me up for this, did you?)

bobwhite (and everyone else who has tired of this), My sincere apologies that you think I was speaking to you. My frustration is with boleta. I hope you can see that my earlier post directed to you was composed with the same respect and good faith that you shared with me. I heard what you said earlier and I'm very willing, eager in fact, to learn from people who are capable of discussion and sharing of differing ideas in the hopes of better helping the boys with whom we work. If you re-read my last post, realizing that it was in response to Boleta's words and not BobWhite's, I hope you'll see that it makes more sense. Though, perhaps, it's less than appropriate in the end, anyway. It's obvious that it's well past time for this thread to end. Again, my apologies for carrying my end of it too long, and perhaps too far. I want to be a positive part of these discussions, but I won't just sit back and be insulted and dismissed because I disagree with boleta or any of you. I think, perhaps, I'll "see" some of you elsewhere in the future, but for here and now, it's TAPS for me. jd (This message has been edited by johndaigler)