johndaigler

As long as this project doesn't have some kind of hidden rquirement to it...it sounds like fun. If there's some implied "do this if you want to keep meeting here" thing, then I'd be mighty upset if I were TigerDad. Parents or staff would definitely need to prep the place and teach the boys "how", but after that . . . just wear clothes you won't ever need again and those cool white painter's hat and have at it!!!! Try to involve as many different colors as you can!!!! This service project could be the talk of the community for YEARS!!!! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Ambana - Please be sure to let the District/Council know why you are changing Packs -- And please take with you as many kids/families as you can!!!!!!!!!! None of us are perfect, but the mean-spirited chaos you've been describing insults and damages us all. Thanks for your clear thinking and help! jd

Welcome Spiney!! Lake County (Northeast IL Council)sends its best!!! jd What DOES Eamonn rhyme with???? You've been letting me mispronounce it for months!!!!!!!!!

There's so much in your post that it's hard to focus. CMs firing DLs??? I have no doubt there's much more here than I've understood. But aiming at the most obvious issue: your health and the misunderstanding that exists around you. Would you be able to gather the appropriate leaders including this CM and some district personnel and have them meet your doctor so that they might gain an understanding of your condition and how that does/does not impact your work with boys. It might be Monday morning QBing, but this was probabl

For starters, I would suggest losing the whole "prankster" MO.

Welcome, Cajuncody!!!! And Good luck!!!!! It's great that you understand you're jumping into the deep end of the pool --- but, it's even better that you're thinking clearly enough to proactively look around for help!!!! This is a great place for questions and answers!!!!!! Keep coming back -- not only will you find a great deal of help, but you'll be helping others, too!! There are a lot of non-posting readers, so even when only a few Scouters get involved in a conversation, MANY are impacted by it. Be sure to read all the CUB related threads just to keep up and learn tons of stuff you didn't know you ought to know!!! It doesn't sound like there's much to be done about your relationship with the outgoing-CM (CM = Cubmaster -- better start getting used to abbreviations!! They fly around here at lightning speed!!). It would be nice to get help there, but it's not essential. Open a "solid" (read that "filled with high expectations of support") line of communication with your District and Council and keep reading - handbooks, CS Leader Book, CS Leader How-To Book, G2SS, conversations like this one, annual Program Helps, Cub Scout Songbook, CS "Ceremonies for Dens and Packs", CS "Academics and Sports" and everything else you can get your hands on. Don't let it overwhelm you, most of them aren't built to be read cover to cover but they're terrific a few minutes at a time when you need to plan or decide how to act, AND don't forget to take the breathers you're gonna need along the way!!! EagleinKY is right about sharing the responsibility -- most people will help you more than you expect, the real trick is helping them see that it's more convenient than they thought. Be sure to set them up for success, don't just try to give them a job and hope it all works out OK. Just like planning a meeting for the boys, carefully think through what you ask each adult to do and be sure they have, or you can give them, the tools they'll need to succeed. Sounds a bit daunting, but once you've done it a time or two, it becomes second nature. Uniforms and money are sticking points to be sure. Your Pack sounds like the one I grew up in - now as an adult I work with wealthy suburban kids and families where $ is a problem for many different reasons. But, like I said, been there, so I won't try to tell you that my present problems are as large as the type you're facing!! You've already heard some good ideas and I'm sure there will be others. It has me thinking about a district or council program to share second hand shirts. A district like mine must have an abundance of outgrown or unused unis. I wonder what happens to them?? (I hear a few posters typing "WOOD BADGE TICKET" . . .) Anyway, I wonder if, for practical purposes, there would be much objection to your group accepting a modified uni focused on activity shirts rather than the full dress outfit (I hear a few rule books being cracked open, but, personally, I'd rather see more boys in "half-unis" than half the boys in full unis!)?? As far as uniform sponsors go, I'm sure there are rules set out by national and your council, but I think you're on the right track -- your Cub families don't have extra money, so . . . who does?? Get some background info about the rules and then get going!! Are there other fundraising and equipment raising opportunities?? Are there spots where potential supporters naturally gather -- malls, large employers, special festivals, highway rest stops?? If we can't ask our traditional support groups to give even more, then we'll need to find new access to potential supporters! Perhaps there are service projects that can get you, and your needs, some recognition and hopefully some support. Again, first get the 411 on the RULES . . . Good Luck!! Hope we're helping!! See ya round!! jd

foto, I know I'm late to this party, but . . . I found everyone's ideas interesting, especially yours. Below, I pulled your words from your posts. It's not the best way, but messageboards are difficult tools to use for problem solving. It seems to me that you don't feel you have the rules on your side, you just feel strongly this boy(and his family, since Cubs don't make too many of their own life choices) have crossed some invisible "quitter" line. You appear to say that you're tired of going the extra mile for this boy. That you've given more than your fair share. I read into all this that you hope one of us can think of that "magic solution" which brings the rules into allignment with what you know to be right. But, I also think you know that solution doesn't exist. It would have been a lot simpler, but you've been dwelling on this much longer than we have and you know nothin's gonna bring right and RIGHT together for you and this boy. You have to let him go. There's several reasons to keep him home, but none of those are based on policies and standards that you use with other Scouts. The fact that you've "let him go" in a thousand other situations over the past years and helped him "more than he deserved" all those times gives you the right to be tired, and gives you the right to be "done" with this boy. It even gives you the right to be ready to teach him "The Hard Lesson". The problem is, this situation isn't set up for teaching the RIGHT lesson, hard or otherwise. If you didn't take his money all those months ago, that would have been the time and place to teach the right lesson. If you explain to him why this is the last time you'll "let him go", and then stick to that converstaion, that's teaching the right lesson at the right time. If you pull the dad aside and remind him he's got a second son, that's teaching the right lesson at the right time. If you find the older brother and help him see the support his younger brother needs, that's teaching the right lesson at the right time. There's even other RIGHT lessons to be taught to this boy and his family. There's also RIGHT lessons for us (Scouting adults) to learn or at least, remember. A contract, particulary one where you accept money in good faith, should be lived up to and we should demonstrate that. Undefined rules and expectations lead to rule bending because the rule is, at best, "goooey" when it's left open to every individual's interpretation. Certainly, if this is a reward situation or comes with an expectation that participation is based on future commitment, THAT needs to be fully explained and IN PRINT. If we allow ourselves a tired place, where we figure it's OK to draw a dark line canceling out a child, it will just get easier and easier to get tired and cancel out more and more kids. The tough ones are the ones we're sent here to help. We all know Scouters who only want the easy boys and the easy challenges, but I'll bet none of us see ourselves as THAT Scouter. Yet, it's certainly lurking around inside each of us on occasion -- we just need to keep him bottled up. Foto, it's a shame you're in this boat, and I'll bet part of the problem is that you figure it shouldn't have gone this far, that soewhere along the line a different decision would have kept this issue from giving you such a headache. I think you and your unit will survive this either way, so what's the best that you can make of it? Do you really think teaching this boy some arbitrarily chosen "tough lesson" is the best for you, him and all your other Scouts? Is there a better lesson that more kids and adults can learn from this situation by letting the boy go? I hope I've been clear about what I think. I'm curious how you'll end up answering the question, after all the posts. Good luck. jd . . . Our charter is up in December, so technically this boy is still registered until December. So here is my dilemma, I think it sends the wrong message to allow this boy to come on the trip at this time. All of the boys and families going are committed to another year of Scouting. Weve worked with this boy for a long time. I am beyond thinking of it as a last attempt to keep the boy. All it would do is prolong the inevitable. As far as putting more time in with this boy is concerned, been there-done that, is my response. So yes, the Quitting Badge may very well be a call for attention, but its not my attention that hes seeking. He has had more than his share of special attention already, the time for that has passed; there is no purpose in extending that effort into this trip. an argument could be made that his paid membership has expired, and that he is now on our time. In fact hes a good kid, hes not his brother but he is a good kid. The boy quit, for the second or third time, and Im not comfortable with extending the privilege of allowing him to attend the trip. In fact hes a good kid, hes not his brother but he is a good kid. The boy quit, for the second or third time, and Im not comfortable with extending the privilege of allowing him to attend the trip. Its about the integrity of our program. Im not here putting on a program for the quitters to take advantage of. I'm not in the business of creating special experiences and memories for the boys or families that have already quit. My interest, my time, my energies are directed toward the boys that are in the program, and not those that have left the program and might feel some perverse desire to take advantage of its special opportunities simply because they can. I dont believe for one second that any of the posters here would expect to participate on this trip after having quit the unit. Most of you would simply assume that youd not be welcome regardless of your registration status. The lesson here is that there is no free meal. . . .

Sorry Blaze, Apparently, you're only PARTIALLY here!!!

NY and IL say . . . CONGRATS!!!!!!! SUPER EFFORT!!!! WELL DONE!!!!! and, THANK YOU!!!! - to Son, Dad, Press, and all the others involved!!!! Thanks for sharing your success with us and for making all our uniforms shine a little bit brighter today!!!!!!!!! jd

OGE, It was tons of fun, I'm surprised there haven't been more old fogies (foggies?) trying their hand. two minor suggestions: If there will be adults in the audience, do you want to throw them a mental music bone or two to get their minds engaged on that level. In truth, I recognized most of the names you used, but wouldn't recognize specific music from many of the groups. . .Now, if you had been able to use Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, I would have been able to joyfully travel down that nostalgic path! Is it possible that you did such a good job of using band names that you didn't leave much thinking room for your audience? Or do you think they'll still be able to come up with new group names to continue punning along? I could rely on the oldies - though I still like to think of "oldies" as "pre-Beatles". Have Fun!!! I think the crowd will enjoy it!!! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Be happy that you're "very involved parents" are, and put 'em to work!!!!!! You don't like numbers and paperwork?? Find one who does! Use your resources; let others share their talents. Keep reading handbooks, manuals and help books, and keep asking questions!!!! Be patient with the learning curve -- theirs and yours. Chances are, you'll have higher expectations for yourself than others will have for you, or than you will have for others. Don't stress yourself out, worrying about the spots where you are less than you want to be, most of the time others doesn't notice anyway! Celebrate the small victories and all the good things you are doing with and for the girls. Sure, a few minor disasters will occur along the way, but they're just to add scenery and interest along the journey -- Smooth Sailing is Boring!!! Keep it simple -- Keep it Fun . . . for the girls, for the parents, but mostly for YOU!!! Everything else will fall into place. Good Luck and Enjoy the Journey!!! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Awww, c'mon, OGE, That's for the BYRDS!! Man does not live on BREAD alone!!!! Diversity rules!!! This is AMERICA, there's no QUEEN here - we got choices!!! I am so close to confessing to my John Denver, Bobby Goldsboro days that it truly frightens me!!!!!!! Rock On, OGE, you are way to cutting edge for me!!!! I had to ask my son about half those names!!!! jd

It doesn't look like your in KANSAS anymore, TOTO. I'm surprised you left out the flying MONKEES!!!!!!!

In times of crises, whether it's natural like the hurricanes, or human, like the school hostage situation in Russia does the BSA ever involve itself by sending aid or support of some type?? I know local Scouts and Scouters often are among the first to offer assistance when others need help. Someone posted a great example last week with a news article about the many scouts drove across FLA to help. Does National participate? What about events in other countries? I certainly don't know if any of the hurt or killed Russian children were Scouts {there are several Scouting orgs. over there, but the ARNSO is the group officially recognized by the World Scout Organization (though I know this name's not quite right for the World Org.)}, but I wonder if organizationally there's something that can and should be done at times like these . . . Is there stated or unstated policy or tradition? jd

I know johndaigler swore off this thread and he doesn't like bending rules (well, actually he's rather comfortable bending rules when it makes sense in the name of children, and other good causes . . .) or going back on his implied agreements, so I borrowed his keyboard . . . Laurie, Get the men to participate, but don't back completely out of the process. Sounds like the world around you needs to be reassured by involving the men, but those same people also need to see the men cooperating with you, accepting you as a team member, and respecting you and your contribution. Scoutmom, come back to us!!!!!! Don't let a few bad apples spoil the whole . . . "not"jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Thanks, Terry, that all makes a lot of sense. At first, I thought closing the thread was a bit heavy-handed, but I understand a bit better now. jd

Rooster - Finally, on your last point, you're right! "Peace" between us is the best answer for now. jd Laurie, sorry for helping to take the thread so far astray. I'll stick by my original post, that: gender is less significant than qulaity of program. I think if you just keep demonstrating that, the boys will return in numbers to bring back your confidence!! Good Luck!! FScouter, Your mythical example doesn't work, unles

Super! FScouter, maybe YOU can help me!!!!! What's the difference?????? jd

One of the problems of believing in gender-based attributes is the self-fulfilling prophecy of culture training. We believe women work well (better than men) with little children, so we believe women make great ELEMENTARY teachers, so we train them to act like elementary teachers, so when we see women working well with children as elementary teachers we validate to ourselves that women work well with children. Historically speaking, the feminization of teaching in the US occurred as a direct result of the Civil War. Men teachers were in short supply, women filled the role. Previous to this cultural revolution, no one doubted that teaching was a MAN'S profession. Of course, it was all very convenient that girls, in general, were not expected to be educated beyond home skills - including that much math and reading that they could manage the household. Factually, you can validate many cultural norms as pushed upon one gender or the other, though you can imagine how vague and obscure historical trends are as truth definers. The origins of few gender norms are as blatantly clear as teaching, but they're there. If we accept ourselves and our gender roles as they exist today, we accept the lack of a need to grow and improve. Yes, I agree with boys needing men, and yes, girls need women. But, if we create program and experiences that show boys need men more than women, we'll just prove to ourselves what we already believe. Our Scouts, and all of us, as well, need to continue to grow and learn and improve. Boys need to become men, but men need to learn all they can from women and vice versa. We'll all be better for it. Imagine a boy as a 8" round pie, cut into 8 slices. Do we want to be sure he gets 6 slices worth of "man" mentoring and coaching and associating? Should he have all 8 slices be "all man"? Is he something less than other boys if he's only 4 slices of "man"? All I'm saying is that we're better off making him into a 9" pie. We don't need to take away any of his "manness" we need to actively look around and find good things outside of "manness" and be sure he gets those, too. If it's outside of "manness" we tend to categorize it as "womanness" (not that anyone ever used such a word, but I hope you can see what I mean). We need to stop seeing character traits as gender based! Being HEROIC is NOT a man thing - it's a thing that our culture gives men more opportunity to be than it gives to women. If we don't help teach our daughters to be heroic, we do them a disservice, and ourselves as a community, a disservice. Being NURTURING is NOT a woman thing - it's a thing that our culture gives women more opprtunity to be than it gives to men. If we don't help teach our sons to be nurturing, then we do them a disservice, and ourselves as a community, a disservice. I know I'm thick-headed, but if you believe women and men are "different", other than their physical bodies and their culture training, please tell me how. Give me a truth for boys that isn't a truth for girls. Separate them in such a way that they can't be unseparated. I don't know how to do that, so I don't know how to agree with you. jd

I also agree. The thread shouldn't be locked. Even though, I know that I can't offer any suggestions that haven't already been better thought out by more experienced knowledgeable Scouters -- and, even if the chances of being any real help are slim, I think the thread and comments are important for several reasons. 1)We all know this could happen to someone dear to us. I'm overwhelmed with affection and pride at the supportive responses and ideas that all these Scouters are offering up -- as if this was their own Scout - or son. You can tell that if it were practical, many of the posters would be out physically searching, as well. 2)The chances of helping are slim - but if that's my son or Scout out there, would I hesitate to listen to any thought that MIGHT help? 3)Perhaps the families directly involved are able to follow the thread and feel the support, prayers and best wishes offered from around the country. 4)Many non-field experts are following this thread and learning a great deal about how to protect their own Scouts in the future. hops_scout, Terry, someone, please reopen the conversation. jd

Though no New Yorker is going wish they were from Texas,(CC!) we all wish you a warm welcome here!!!! With all those jobs how do you have time to post????????????

Hi, Carol, Sure, I agree with parents being the key role model. I'm just wondering where we go to show them additional role models. ?? As parents, we are who we are. In most families, we're the ones who offer our children most of what they will become. Still, our kids will benefit from being exposed to others who can demonstrate and offer Different experiences. They'll certainly need to relate to, and in fact, work with, fall in love with, grow old with, etc. people who aren't us. I'm sorry, did I imply you said women couldn't lead? I didn't mean for you to read anything like that into what I wrote. You make a good point about an adult male being able to say to a Scout, "Been there, Done that." That's a good thing, and I hope I haven't been read by anyone as having said something to the contrary. But, unless it's a gender based situation, why wouldn't a woman be able to say, "Been there, Done that"? Now, if it is a gender based situation, wouldn't it be a good thing for the boy (in addition to hearing from the above male) to hear, ". . .and this is how it is for girls. . ."? I'm afraid that our biggest stumbling block is that we (I'm not directing this at CC, but at all of us) have different expectations of behavior for men and women, and for boys and girls. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Hey Rooster - your deep sigh made me laugh out loud!!!!! 80) I can't believe you're dissin' poor ol' Bella's good memory!!!! I'm not surprised, but I can't believe it!!! Well, all right, I could have predicted it, but I just can't believe it!!! And, I suppose, you're going to tell me you didn't like her hats, too!!! Ok, so neither of us is afraid. That SHOULD make it easier to talk to each other. I never said there was something wrong with being a man -- what I've been saying is that it's not enough. I don't get that there are significant differences between men and women, beside the physically obvious. I'm sure I'm missing some point that is obvious to you, but I just don't. jd

E- Wouldn't it be a big jump for someone to hold it against this guy because he's looking to buy a house and share expenses with a friend? Isn't it funny (or, sad!) that a few years ago we'd have been upset if he was "living with" a woman friend -- now, we're tempted to be relieved???? On the other hand, I don't like those little beards, either!!! I vote for watching and picking your spots. Everbody is going to have to learn new roles, new relationships and how to work together -- they won't do that if you start "meddling". Give them the space and respect you'd expect for yourself ---- just be ready to catch whomever falls! BTW, that would be "successful business person" . . . jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Can we agree with Eamonn that: "A good leader is a good leader, and a bad leader is a bad leader, it makes no difference if they are male or female." ??? We keep using phrases like "strong male role model" and "man of character". Is it necessary to be gender specific with these??? Rooster, you used a phrase that might serve me as a good example. "A boy needs to learn how to cope with life and relate to others as a man." Is that thought any less true if we leave off the final three words?? I want it to be more true, and without those three words, more important. Perhaps it isn't, yet, but I look at my sons and hope it will be for them. Bella Abzug???? Wow, Rooster, you're dating yourself (and, unfortunately, me!!)!!! But, as a Native New Yorker, I understand and am honored by the comparison!!! Clear thinkers are difficult to find anywhere, at any time in history!! There's no benefit to limiting boys' behavior models. Why wouldn't they learn from women demonstrating "actions of character" in the same way that they would learn from men demonstrating the same behavior? There's no such thing as "male actions of good character" or a different set of "female actions of good character". Rooster, I'll certainly agree with you that men view the world differently than women. But, that's not a reason to help boys become "men". That's exactly the reason to help boys (and girls!) become "more". What is it about being a "man" that we want to hold on to so dearly that we think it makes us different and better than women?? Which character trait is so singularly vital to us that it's only a male trait and won't be found in women of strong character, skills, talent and intelligence? My sons are years away from Manhood, but they will need to be "more" than their grandfathers were. They'll need to be "more" than I am. More "manly"?? I don't think that's the best way to describe it. If they don't get a handle on seeing and interacting with the world without using "more" than their "manness", the world will leave them behind. They'll be less successful, less satisfied, just plain "less". "Nor does it acknowledge the existence of differences between good men and good women " I can't acknowledge this, because I don't get it. I'll need your help. Beyond physiology, what are the differences? CC, Not to challenge you or try to discredit your thoughts -- My family has had the same concerns and discussions. We've probably arrived at different answers and different decisions, but they fit us. Our choices wouldn't work for your family, nor do I think my family's answers are "righter" than yours. I ask because I'm curious, and because I worry about my sons... Do you think your sons are likely to end up with women in their lives who have the same views as you (appear to have) toward parenting, wifehood (is that a word??) and motherhood?? They won't have BETTER views, but, probably, they'll be different. With that in mind, where are your son(s) going to get the experience and information to deal with certain of their life situations? Will it help them to be led by men more than it will help them to be led by women? Won't your son(s)(and Mine) be better off with adults who fit Eamonn's description that I used back up at the top of this post? I hope I was polite enough here, because I'm truly curious. I believe your thoughts will help me better see the issue and the differing views. BTW, maybe BP started scouting because his mother was such a good role model that he thought, with help, boys could grow up to be like her. Or, even scarier yet , that boys NEEDED help to have a chance to grow up to be like his mom! jd