johndaigler

Bob White, I recieved your PM. I replied, but I'm not sure the system delivered it. I received an error message, but in similar situations the recipient actually did get my reply. Please let me know if it worked its way through to you. jd

HTU - I'm glad to see this is helping. Just a few variations on others' thoughts . . . The Den Chief is a great idea, but maybe better used with the rest of the boys rather than the two Autistic Scouts. The dads might better play that role. You said they're both there, but not what they do. Get their fingers dirty! Do you know any classroom teachers? Talk with them about "mainstreamed" special needs students and how teachers keep their classes and lessons from focusing so much on the needs of the few that the needs of

Cajuncody, Thank you! For the story, and for all your efforts!!!!!!! jd

Bob White, I tried to be clear and fair with my post, not aggressive, and I apologize if you felt attacked. My "attack" was on your words -- or atleast that was the plan. Which piece was offensive? Which piece was wrong? "Will this opinion strike some very personally? Maybe it will. Maybe enough to get them to take and use the available training. Maybe it will upset them enough to do their job or make room for someone who will." Perhaps you and I are on the same page after all -- it's just easier to be writing that page than to be reading that page. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

You Da Man!!!!! Thanks, Terry!!! Catch that, Hops, I'm as smart as Terry - yeah, a bit slower, but I got there!!! Now, who's next on my list??? Bob White??? jd

"My perspective on the difference between a scout leader and a quality scout leader is the difference between a horse, and somebody who is dressed up like a horse." This, BW, is why you create angst in your readers and lower your value as a teacher. You could have said the difference between a horse "and a pony"(similar just a little tinier, not quite as capable of doing those "Horse-ish" kinds of things), or a horse "and a thoroughbred" (similar, but has a QUALITY bloodline, probably well-trained) or a horse "and a zebra" (similar, but a little wild, untrained and rough around the edges). But, Noooooooo, you had to go and make the other end of your comparison into a fraud, a creature masquerading as something they obviously are not, AND CAN NEVER BE. Is there a way for you to set the font on your computer to somethin like 50% graytone?? Even 75%??? Just a reminder, being right is NOT enough!! You've got that mastered, now what are you gonna learn? jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

irover33, WELCOME!! Listen to BW, while I don't always think he's right, I've never actually seen him be wrong! Curious, though, who passed the rule and why you HAD to stress the rules?? Not passing the Scoutmaster Conference?? OUCH! That's a bit harsh! Even if it weren't ABSOLUTELY AGAINST THE RULES, what did you hope to achieve?? Your "uniformity" was more important than boys achieving rank and being recognized for their efforts?? Hmmmmm . . . I'm kinda wishin' ol'Bob there hadn't let ya off the hook so easily. . . Seriously, though, why? jd

Thanks, Hops, I'm not ready to pursue that avenue, yet. Maybe Terry can come up with something. My ideas might actually work for them as well, since it's likely to bring additional Scouters to SCOUTER!! jd

Thanks, SWS!! Makes too many wolves in a Den look a little simpler!!!! jd

THANKS!!!!!! I get it and I'm already working on it!! Again, thank you. Now, since you gave me that cookie let me ask for another . . . Using that webpage or any other technology associated with Scouter, can I establish a forum for my local peeps to discuss local issues -- a techno-meeting, site as it were. I imagine getting all my Unit Leaders to sign on to Scouter and then visit our own personal forum for discussions that would ordinarily require hours of meeting time. Any help??

BW - Your logic about leadership is sound. But, you titled the thread,"Social and Economic Forces and Their Effect on Scouting". Perhaps it's the conversation about "Quality Leadership" that doesn't fit the thread. No one is going to successfully argue your initial point about Leadership. But your logic is vacuum-based, and to deny the real-world impact of economics, race, community environment, neighborhood safety, police and govt. relationships, family and cultural traditions, isn't sound logic or helpful to anyone fighting the good fight. Can Quality Leadership overcome all these issues?? Sure, eventually. But, in the meantime, your original post reads like an indictment of any Scouter who's struggling through any or all of these problems, because everyone knows QUALITY Leadership kicks everything else's butt. If you meant it as a pep talk or a motivator to tell others they'll win in the end -- it didn't fly. Even without those major issues, each of us face local smaller issues like misbehaving kids, misbehaving parents, misbehaving peers. Your post feels like a condemnation of any leader who hasn't figured out the answers yet. (Going back to other thread discussions and not to put words in your mouth, but . . .} You won't win the "total uniform" argument with anyone. Everyone gets the value of the uniform, but to make it seem as if it should be everyone's first priority denies their own leadership and in fact condemns it. Now, you can say that's not what you said, but that's how MANY people read your posts. You write with black and white phrases and use black and white logic and speak from seemingly black and white views, but it's a very gray world and most of the rest of us don't have all the training and knowledge stuffed between those [well separated ] ears. Just, once in a while, cut us some slack, will ya? BTW, your examples and ideas for cajuncody were great -- it just took too long to get there! jd

retire em! if you can get em back, use em next year or see if there's a Tiger group somewhere that wants to save a few pennies. This is one piece of the uniform that even wolves don't want to wear. With the tigers going blue, I give National two years before they do away with the totem and use the pocket protector approach like the Wolves and Bears. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Home building sites are great resources for scraps --especially milled wood, but plenty of other items like metals, paper, wiring and plastics, etc. It's also a GREAT resource for finding individuals (mostly guys) who have the skills, talents, materials and tools to be of assistance in many ways. If they're strangers, there are obvious safety concerns to be conscious of, and you should ask for permission to invade their private property dumpsters. But, I've had guys quit work early to spend a half hour helping me safely sift through the stuff and make decisions -- they even start giving you ideas for projects!!! On occasion, you'll make a Scouting connection that will bring good things and good feelings to both of you. jd

First HTU, WELCOME!! Second, Be Prepared for some serious comments about your moniker - FYI, there will likely be a large amount of underappreciation!!! Third, your Council/District guys probably have answered this question before, so even if you don't appreciate them, go there for possible support. I hope you've already discussed this with the boys' parents, and maybe even doctors. The boy's school is another great source of info about this particular boy. Autism is not a single thing or single set of circumstances for a child. You can "google" it and come up with many sites and resources that will help you gain background info and very useful knowledge, but this particular Scout probably won't fit any one general category. Autistic kids who function well enough to be Scouts often have a combination of various issues and symptoms. After you've got a good generic background about autism, you'll need to focus on the specifics of this Scout. Chances are you'll need to think of it more as his own "uniqueness" rather than bother with medical terms. Good luck!! Don't hesitate to come back when your questions get more specific. jd ACCO - I started my reply before you posted yours but now that I've seen yours, I just wanted to say THANKS!! I didn't know how to get all that into my post without depersonalizing it to the point of it feeling like a lecture to HTU. GREAT POST!!!!!!! HTU, read it, then read it again, then in a week come back and read it again --- there's GOBS of great thinking in there from ACCO and his source. (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Why are we getting hung up with each other? If you're in the "I can't afford uniforms" group, you should be focusing on the many solutions being offered, not criticizing the "solution-offerers" choice of words! Your very actions of coming to this forum, demonstrate other posters' "Where there's a will, there's a way!" mentality. No, it's not gonna be easy but there are several good solutions here AND HUNDREDS of SCOUTER readers now know a little bit more about your plight. Several are working away trying to find uniforms for you already. It's time to re-read this thread and SEE the generosity of Scout Spirit that fills each post! If you're in the "where there's a will, there's a way" group, keep working on the ideas and stay away from statements that will OBVIOUSLY get read as judgements and criticisms. Some of you guys are ALWAYS helpful and, almost as often, hurtful. Cajun (and others) certainly has demonstrated a willingness to work to solve the problem. If she reads that it's her fault for not working hard enough or thinking well enough, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT HER (them) TO SEE AND FEEL? It's time to re-read this thread and SEE the generosity of Scout Spirit that fills each post! Now, several of you have jumped into the "jd is up on his holier than though soapbox again" group. Well, too bad! Each one of you should have jumped on this soapbox and saved me the effort! It's time to re-read this thread and SEE the generosity of Scout Spirit that fills each post! jd

Hops or Terry or ..., In a CUB thread, we're discussing activity participation segment patches. Is there a way for me to share the scanned image of these? I don't know how to "attach" this graphic to a post or a PM. Is it possible? Is there any other option than sharing personal email addresses? Thanks, jd

2CD - These patches are shaped like a slice of pie with a bite taken out of the pointed end so they can butt up against the round center patch. (If you're mathematically inclined, imagine an inverted isosceles trapezoid "\_/" bent around a circle!!). Each one is ~1/2 inch high and ~1 inch wide. As you complete each circle around the center patch, you just start a new "layer". Each patch is simple and unique. Our council keeps about 125 in stock, and I'm told more are available. For example, there's an American Flag, a hand shooting a marble, a tent, a swimmer, a popcorn box, a rocket, a pocket knife, etc. We use them for participation - just show up for the BlueNGold and you get the little segment for BlueNGold. They're not intended for achievement , but can make a great visual history of a boy's time as a Cub. If nothing else they're great memory-boosters. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Push ups are hazing and inappropriate -- that's simple. The parents, Scouters and even the Scouts, themselves, can't change that with a vote -- that's simple. Changing pre-teens behavior?? -- That's complicated! Goodmana, you've read lots of good ideas. Just keep trying one after another until you find the right key. And after that one works for a little while, you'll need to find a different one. And, OH BTW, it's best to have several handy at any given moment, since the key for each boy might well be different!! Be sure the boys see several and agree that they're fairly equitable. Help them see that each boy will earn the consequence that helps them achieve appropriate behavior. For one boy it might be that calling home is far worse than public embarassment. You CAN'T choose the former, and probably SHOULDN'T choose the latter, so you need to find one that works well for that individual boy. Like I said, "different strokes . . . Good Luck!!! Troopmom, I'll bet you take care of the candle, right? Aside from the safety issue, having a boy extinguish the candle because of bad behavior is also an inappropriate form of public embarassment. I think Unc just read too much into that one - public embarassment, even if it's gently applied to little Scouts, still doesn't fit. BeaverWarrior, if you have ADD diagnosed boys, then it might help, if you haven't already done this, to get in contact with their school. You'll need the parents approval and participation, of course, but you'll be able to access a fairly impressive array of professional opinions and solutions. Don't expect concrete answers, because their are still as many descriptions of ADD (and treatments) as there are doctors and teachers. If the boys are medicated, you may just be getting them at the "wrong time of the day". At the very least, you'll gain a better understanding of the problem you're facing. As far as the Oath and Law go, you might not see their use as punishment, but certainly the boys will see it that way. You're probably doing more harm than good as you build resentment. Even among the "well behaved" boys, you will probably start to see them use the Oath and Law as punishment rods with which to smite each other. Boy Scouts don't do snack time????? Yikes!!! CUBS RULE!!!! The Tao of Silver-Shark?? Well played!!! jd

TigerDad, As you can see from the different posts, you better be clear with the principal just what he expects the end product to look like!!!! If he's looking for adult quality, your unit is better off doing a fund rasier and paying a pro. But, if he's daring, partially color blind, and truly interested in offering second graders a chance to do their best, then this could be one GREAT boy's room!! Any chance of bringing in the school's art teacher for some direction?? No reason not to plan your chaos ahead of time!! A mural is probably out of the reach of second graders, but the art teacher will know -- and will be able to give you some sound advice about little boys and paint. I agree with Scoutingagain about ladders and safety!!! Have fun -- Be careful!!! Make sure there's a planned way for the boys to autograph their work -- handprints, footprints, self-portraits, anything but make sure they get credit for decades to come!!!! And BTW, Scoutingagain, dissing Shemp is very LOW!!! He saved the franchise for a few extra years!!! jd

Thanks for the input, so far. If Cubs earn a belt loop through Den/Pack activities would you NOT give out the participation segment? For example, at Day Camp boys earn Fishing, Archery and BB Gun Shooting belt loops. Would you also give those segments?? I see the blet loops and other "awards" as a record of Achievement and the segments as a record of participation. If the the red vest is the place to BRAG with those segments, shouldn't the segments be there as well as loops on the belt? My Pack is discussing whether it should pay for both. Thanks again, jd

My council uses these "optional" segment patches to celebrate Cub participation in any number of activities. They're small somewhat pie slice shaped and are placed in expanding circles about a round council patch on the red brag vest. Do you use them? Do you have any customs, traditions, or policies regarding their distribution?? I'm just looking for background info as our Pack discusses their continued use . . . WE use them prolifically, and are distributed at the discretion of the DL for Den Activities and the Advancement

TrailPounder, "Ever notice how people who have been called a racist immediately go defensive and backpeddle and just have to prove to the guy throwing the bomb that he is JUST NOT ONE OF THOSE RACISTS." How would you have preferred Boleta to respond after having been called a racist???????? You OBLITERATED him because he denied being a racist??? jd

BW, I know you know what you're talking about. So, with all due respect, I didn't follow ... "The ability for scouts to wear a correct uniform is no more tied to the income of the scout and his family than is any other of the scouting methods. " ... I would probably agree with your point if the family's income were the overriding issue. However, if the economic condition of the entire scouting environment is impoverished, I would find your wording less than concrete-carved truth -- maybe even hurtful. If the boy's family can't afford it, and the troop can't afford it, and the other boys' families can't, and the CO can't, and the neighborhood can't rally for any significant amount of popcorn or other fundraisers . . . Where do Scouters go, then? It seems complicated. jd Also, WITH GOBS OF RESPECT TO BOTH "TYPES" OF POSTERS, what did Boleta say that was wrong? Eamonn, immediately agreed that race was not the issue, but rather, economic realities. Here and on the other thread, Boleta got BLASTED for suggesting that the points of the discussion were RELEVANT to money as opposed to race - that indeed the discussion of race distracted from the core problem to be solved. Can someone help me see what was offensive about his posts? jd

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You guys all continue to amaze and humble me!!!!!!!!!! jd