johndaigler

Pete T Northmoss - Welcome!!!!!!!! But, you're not going to find any support for your SPL at this campfire. The real question is how it got to this point and how you're all gonna work together to make it better. jd

Eamonn, I don't know if your points were completely directed at me, but you quoted "redirect" and I think that was mine. My point was not to suggest that it was the District's responsibility, or that District staff had the POWER to "redirect" Unit action, but rather that when a Unit is troubled and seemingly making organizationally undesired choices, then where would they turn, other than to District staff for info, ideas, and experience? Perhaps, I could have been clearer with my term "redirect" - I meant redirect their thinking, not their actions. You gave "redirect" more authority than I did. BW - I'm getting training, and I'll be getting more, but that doesn't change the fact. You won't be able to justify your original comment with research based data. A similar concept, relating the size of the group to the success of the endeavor would have been fine. Your comment, unsurprisingly, was too finely drawn. Group-size studies have been done for years. You won't find a single reliable study or research project to clinically justify the value of "8" or the "wiring of children" in complete negation of group leaderhip. There are myriad researchers whose work explains the interdynamics of groups and the role of leadership in social and learning settings. And that doesn't even bring into account the variation in ages -- 6 and 7 year olds are clinically different than 10 and 11 year olds. I'm curious how you, here, or a trainer in a course will validate your comment. Evidence, please. jd

oh, B6, I forgot to ask . . . what part of Joisey??? We spent three years in Hunterdon County, before moving out to IL last year. jd

Blackie 6, WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck and Have FUN!!! Stop waiting. Either the rest will catch up or they won't. There's no time to lose, if you hope to keep the excitement and interest of the boys you know you have. You're already ahead of the game because you're scheduling training. Among the resources that the Pack should supply you with are: Den Leaders Handbook, Den Leaders How-To Book, 2004-2005 PROGRAM HELPS (!!!!!), and Tiger Handbook. Of course there are other resources, as well. Don't overwhelm yourself though, if it's not fun for you, you'll have a tough time making it fun for the boys. This Forum is a great resource - another step ahead for/by you!!! An important point to remember is that the posters have varying amounts of experience and sensibilities. Also, there are many more readers than posters, so posters will often write to a broader audience than just you. Your question may seem simple and direct, but the answer impacts others so it might be broader in scope. A thick skin comes in handy at times. Trust, though, that every poster means well for you and all the Scouters they can reach. Also, Tigers, while seemingly evolving to be more like Wolf and Bear, is still a bit of a different beast with its approach to parent involvement. Not all Scouters "get that" but its an important part of Tigers as they exist today. PS >> A lot of Forum Scouters WISH they still could cut off all their hair!!!!!!!!!!!!! jd (Tigers are great, but WOLVES RULE!!!!!)

Way to go, Anonymous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jd

Hey - Eamonn, I guess I expect District staff to be able to help the Unit through this. Perhaps, I'm assuming too much when I think, that District staff is better trained and more experienced than Unit Leadership, though obviously, that wouldn't ALWAYS be the case. I hope, when the Unit runs out of ideas or starts making poor decisions, then District/Council/National form additional layers of Quality leadership to help redirect the Unit. In this particular case, there seems to be a collection of Units who aren't quite on the right path. Sure, this is the Unit(s) issue, but if we're not on the same team working together, then I'm missing some understanding about the structure of our group. 2CubDad - Wouldn't it be easier to support one Unit with more Dens than two separate Units - which certainly requires more administrative work and more Leadership manhours - more meeting places, more Pack equipment, etc. You spoke about the "goodwill" of the Pack in accepting additional boys. I don't get that -- maybe it's just the words you chose. How many boys is "bursting at the seems"???? OH, I see. I went back and read your first post to try and figure it out. 127???!!! Well, that is a lot of boys. Are you ready to give some of them up? Do you have enough Leadership to "create" a new group of Leaders for the new Pack? What would make creating a new Unit a more sensible choice than helping your Unit create more Dens? BW - this . . . "Den size has nothing to do with the adults ability to manage it and everything to do about how kids are wired to be able to function as a social group." . . . is TOO black and white. I hope this isn't what we're teaching our Scouters at any level of Training because it lacks scientific (eduacation research) and experiential validation or truth. Given any group of people, children or adults, the LEAD affects the way the group interacts and performs. Size of group matters, but in more general terms. 8 is not a magic number (3 is!!). I don't want to argue about the detail of 8, because your point that it's getting too large is obvious and accurate. I just don't want anyone to think that the Adult Leader is less significant than pre-teens "wiring". Fotoscout, How big is your group?? If you need ideas for "how" to break a group: geography, scouting experience, behavior in the group setting, dedication to participation, dedication to earning things(badges, patches, pins, awards), physical abilities and health, EQ and IQ, family participation, -- none of these would create a perfect split, so you'd want to use a mix of several. The one you don't want to use much is parent preference. There's no way to make everyone happy, so let everyone be sure that no one's happiness is the deciding factor. jd

WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good Luck and Have Fun!!! jd

13 or more in a den? Membership limits? Parents won't spin off? Whose running these Packs???? Where's the District Leadership? We started August with 7 in my Wolf Den. By Sept. 1, we were at 12 and today we're at 16! You can't help Cubs experience a quality program with a dozen in the den. We decided to split when we realized we were going to hit 12. Oct. 1 was the split date, but the extra 4 boys complicated the splitting process so we'll officially become two dens on the 7th or so. It was a huge struggle to find leadership. And we may lose a boy because the parent wanted to be in the other group -- we split up the original group that were Tigers together, so that each Den had a bit of "Scouting experience". But, it had to be done. And, you guys know you need to fix some of these scenarios. Limiting recruitment -- What's that all about?????? The Parents don't want to split? They don't get a vote till after you decide what's good for the Den, then, of course, they can always vote with their feet. I'm sorry, that probably sounded judgemental, but it's not intended that way. It's not you fault, but something's not right when we turn kids away -- whatever the reason. Having this extra Pack in town doesn't sound like such a good thing after all. . . Good Luck with issues. jd

2CD - Thanks, I was unaware that DEs were evaluated this way. Though, I'd like to find the thread where this is explained and justified . . . Trying desperately to stay on the topic. All of 2CD's other points also make sense, but they seem to me to represent a luxury based on success through convenience. Not that that's a bad thing , but aren't there many, many "One Pack Towns" in the nation? I imagine most boys would have to travel a few miles to access a new Pack. Evmori, Is the "Popular" pack so large it's starting to trip over itself?? OK, so the struggling Pack is here and it's worth saving. . . It either needs to level the competition field by offering dynamic, well-publicised Quality Program; or it needs to stop competing and look to other sources for membership. I think other posters have offered good suggestions in those directions. Or I guess, the leaderships of the two Packs need to get in a room and make a plan - - - perhaps led by a DE whose job depends on the success of the plan????. Other than Leadership ego, what reason would the PopPack have for "over recruiting"? It's a big pie, everyone benefits if we work together to preserve and enlarge it. The two Packs share the same group of boys, can't the two groups of Leaders get together and talk this through??? Aren't some of these people neighbors? Can CORs take some active role? Good Luck jd

Evmori - Are there reasons why a Commissioner or anyone else at the District or Council level prefer two Packs over one larger Pack?? I'm not District, so I don't know. But, from a plain ol' DL's view, I wouldn't immediately see the advantage of having two separate Packs in this situation. Would allowing the struggling Pack to dissolve and focusing on strengthening the "Popular" Pack be a possible solution? If Kids are drawn to Pack "A", then there's something attractive about it. If it's not their Program, what is it? How can you use those aspects of the Pack to help improve the delivery of quality program? jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

ScoutNut - for Pack activities and Day camp the segment decision is made by our Advancements Chair. All our boys who went to Day Camp will receive: Archery and BB Gun Shooting Belt loops and the following segments: swimmer bus (because they rode a bus to go swimming) fish handtools bridge (I think this is a segment for crossing over, but we're giving it to the boys for their work on the ropes bridges and the ropes course) traget galaxy (looks li

I tried to warn ya, Kenk! Now, instead of a balmy 65 degrees, you have to deal with the full 98.6 degree heat from Tropical Storm BOB!!!! There's no way around this. Keeping things the way they are, is inappropriate -- you're just not following the rules - rules established and tested to be in the best interests of the Cubs. But, it's not a crime (well, IMHO, not an unfixable one, anyway) it's a matter of weight and which team members are carrying which portion of that weight. Now, as I step carefully out onto Kenk's rapidly melting ice and see the sharks circling. . . Having parents and even the Webes, themselves, help is really an interesting approach. But, Kenk, you need to be TREMENDOUSLY careful with it. You and your ADL have ALL the responsibility; there's NO getting around that. BUT, we all encourage our parents to help out and share their talents. So, (and I know there will be plenty of disagreement out there) I'd like to try seeing this as an experiment and a test case. Let's go slowly with this . . . Where is the line? Yes, Kenk is obviously on the wrong side of it. But is he just a foot or two over, or has he run screaming past the line into the next county? Would his process be OK, or just "closer to OK", if: -He carefully planned with, and pre-approved the parents' efforts. -the DL (or ADL) was an integral part of any parent led activity. -he followed up with reflection between DL and parent. - . . .? Kenk, You talked a bit about your part in parent's prep. But, a last minute phone call doesn't seem to meet any appropriate planning security check. Perhaps, you could tell us more. Do your parents have any training at all? Do you use, and do your parents understand the parts of the meeting? How do you handle a parent effort that you see as less than "Scout" worthy? Are you willing to stop a parent effort that crosses any of the myriad boundary lines? Anyone have ideas that could bring Kenk back to the Good side of the FORCE? But, let's walk him carefully back, as opposed to telling him to start over. Sure, he could pick up a "Program Helps" and begin fresh, but he's out there on the ice. How close to shore does he have to come before we think he's safe????? BTW, did anyone see where Bob White's head landed?? We saw sparks all across Northern Illinois!!! BW - especially, I'm curious. What can we do to help Kenk back-track toward a trained standard? It may be your contention that fundamentally that isn't possible. But, help me rephrase the question then, so that we get ideas that Kenk WILL USE to reach safety. I don't think we're going to get him to throw out the process and start over. There's obviously some grey room here, because all our Den meetings are different. I hope we all start from a good standard like the "Program Helps", but I'm sure we run in different directions from that point. How far does Kenk have to travel to be back amongst friends? jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Thanks, KS!

Rip - I remember the type of Scout patches you mentioned. This program is similar - particularly the camp patches that had the year by year segments around the center circle. In fact, this is probably an outgrowth of that patch history. This is a CUB program that is optional by council - perhaps even by Unit if the Council agrees, so you may not see them at all. If your Scout shop had them, you'd know, because they take up quite a bit of room, (Our shop stocks over 125 different segment patches) and are used so frequently that they keep a lot in stock. They're not special ordered (usually) because they are used for instant recognition of participation. On Monday at our Space Derby, each boy will leave with the "Rocket" segment. jd

BW - This isn't even a nice try. It's a poor word game! "johndaigler writes "Nice try, but "degree" is not a measurement." Really? Lets look at the Webster shall we? degree n. A unit of of measurement in a scale. HMMM would you like a chance to withdraw that statement john? I will stand by my statements and I listed for you the BSA documents to prove that objective measurements exist. This is not a guessing game it is a structured program. " Please re-read your own dictionary definition again and then use it without paraphrasing. A degree is NOT a measurement. (Unless of course, something is measured and found to equal 1 base unit degree.) Your definition says a UNIT of measurement - that is to say a standardized unit used for the basis of simplifying communication. Now, with that understanding please go back to my earlier post. The words cannot be dismissed as a misunderstanding of definitions. Disagree, if you like, with my words but don't try to correct my vocabulary - wrongly focusing on dictionary definitions rather sadly minimizes and distracts from the content of posts. Putting words in my mouth is worse. I, certainly, did not call this a guessing game. And, I believe, you'll need to re-"list the BSA documents" that you refer to, I don't think we've seen them on this thread. "John how can anyone build on a structure they never took the time to learn or use?" Again, please re-read my post. This concept would be yours, since it won't be found in my post. My words addressed a "Learning Organization's" ability to see outside itself and actively search for, and use new information. Your question wrongly minimizes and distracts from the words I used without addressing the point I made. "We can only help him do that if we ourselves are more tomorrow than today. We can only be that if BSA is more tomorrow than it is today. Very pretty words, now what evidence is it based on? what if instead of the program being more than it is, what if the leaders improved? Would that have an effect? Until the leaders follow whatever the program is what difference will it make how it changes, or even how often." Again, your words foxtrot around mine and dismissing my point as pretty but lacking evidence distracts from and minimizes the point without contradicting it. Your point that trained leaders improve programs has been made and agreed with several times. The point I made stands adjacent to, not "instead" of trained leadership. Yes, we would better impact more boys tomorrow if more leaders took a training course today. Why come back here? Your repetitive words imply that I didn't agree or, more insulting, didn't understand. My post focused on concerns that our present situation runs the risk of stagnating if we don't accept any data that isn't internally developed. If any program is stagnant then its training program's value will decrease over time. If an organization only relies on internally taught leaderhip, it will decrease over time because NEW ideas are too few. The point and question still remain. Are we capable of accepting new information as an organization? As leaders? Now, since we have gotten to the point of word games, it's probably time to find a new thread. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

back again - BadenP, that's a pretty fair and clear summary - thanks. BW, I'd offer a draw, but somehow I don't see that as an option here . . . So, here's a thought or two: "A degree...a measurement. Quality is a measurable thing. We measure scouting quality with specifc measureable scouting elements. You either do something or you don't. You have or have not, you did or did not, things happened or they did not. The quality of scouting can and is measured objectively." Nice try, but "degree" is not a measurement. It's a standard, designed to create a consistent base for scientific conversation and research. "Quality" is never measured objectively, but by an agreed-to set of standards. It's rather important to know what the standards are, who designed them, who's using them to assess "Quality", and how the assessments of "Quality" are interpreted and used - hopefully for future growth planning. Even if the examiners are independant, the standards are not. "Quality Units" are judged against criteria set forth by Leadership. The criteria is designed not to assess quality, but to assess conformity with desired goals. That's fine and appropriate, but let's not confuse this pure definition of "quality" with consistency within an organization. It may seem a fine point, but since the "Quality" line has been so darkly drawn, the point would need to be sharp. "Can you honestly tell me that you cannot look at the performance of a group or individual and not be able to tell in specific terms if they follow the scouting prograzm or not?" Yes, BW, I think I can make that assesment, though I know and honor those who are better judges. My concern remains that the definitions and descriptions of quality assessment that have been discussed in these threads is often incestuously narrow. "We do this. We believe this. If you do this and believe this, then you're a quality program, too." Again, it's not surprising that an organization values consistency with its Values. It can hardly do otherwise. That however is not enough. A QUALITY program learns and grows. It gathers and accepts new thinking, knowledge, and experience different from itself -- the source of this would, of course, be individuals who the organization cannot presently consider "Quality" Leaders. Gathering and accepting data is only the first step in learned growth, though, there is also: interpreting and understanding the new information; evaluating; and using the new information. Orgs that do not open themselves to new data, interpretations, evaluations and assessments do not grow in a learned way, if at all. Unfortunately, the world still spins around such stagnant orgs. All over the planet new ideas, new information, new interpretations and new uses are experienced daily. The world learns and grows daily. Quality today will not be Quality tomorrow. Are we preparing for tomorrow? Is our head in the sand? Does protecting our Core Values and Quality Program mean stagnating growth and learned change? Are we just so confidant and pleased with ourselves that we think we've reached the peak and don't have to grow any more? Is there room already built in for learned change, that we just haven't gotten around to discussing? I certainly don't have all the answers. But, I have one. Tomorrow each of our boys needs to be more than he was today. We can only help him do that if we ourselves are more tomorrow than today. We can only be that if BSA is more tomorrow than it is today. . . Or . . . will we be more tomorrow, with or without the BSA??????? . . . jd

Eagle, Yeah, Jambo-East!!! But I don't remember if I was a Purple "F" or a green "H" . . . Somewhere, I know my Mom could find it and tell me!!! I think Danny was an honorary Eagle, but it was a lot harder in those days!!!! jd

At next Monday's Pack meeting we'll announce the beginning of a local program to recover unused Scouting uniforms and equipment!! Thanks, for the mental spark cajuncody!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're tops on our mailing list!!!! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Thanks, Acco and CubbingCarol, I was absolutely unaware of these STATE Badges. I'll be on it before you even read this! This, BTW, is one of my favorite parts of these forums. As we share back and forth, you can pick up TERRIFIC info on topics that you never thought of and/or are not specifically part of the original conversation! Just one more reason to keep coming back momma -- learning things that you never knew you never knew!! (anyone else hearing Disney music in the background?!??!!) Hey, Kenk, I get the idea about sharing responsibility and talents. I'm thinking how to implement some of it, because right now, our DLs do it all. However, the idea that you might suggest a boy and family go elsewhere if they're not willing to share is VERY troublesome. It's Den Leaders who are supported and trained to be responsible for all Den activities. Getting parents to participate and share their talents is Fantastic, but to judge their son's right to belong to the group based on the parents' ability or interest in helping is NOT going to be found in any Scouting Materials. You are on thin ice and it's a balmy 65 degrees!!!!! jd (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

BP? Whoever taught BP his "Scouting" skills and philosophies? Who trained the developers of our first training classes? Who trained the developers of our initial forays into a quality program? Was it "Quality" as first sprung from the heart of BP?? Perhaps, god-sent like a gospel?? Just because we don't know their names, do you contend that they didn't exist???? Who developed the "square knot"?? Do we think it was his first try with a rope? "Quality unit Awards" measure consistency with pre-determined program and program goals, they do NOT measure Quality of program. As I said, I believe "Quality" is a word based, atleast partially, in growth and change. Growth and change sometimes demanded by the public environment, sometimes predicated on a catastophic event, sometimes based on new information that arises out of mistakes, luck, etc. For example, science and medicinal "Quality" changed radically with the convenient discoveries of penicillin and radioactivity. To suggest that Quality Scouting is immune to such forces, cited specifically or not, is too narrowly focused thinking. No need to teach us about the Pledge, BW. The point which you apparently missed, or intentionally avoided, is that cultural changes affect change in program. "Quality" is therefore susceptible to cultural changes. Cultural changes are susceptible to the whims of the people, so the whims of the people affect "Quality" program. Training is vital, NO ONE here has ever debated that. Trained is better than Untrained. Everyone agrees. But, there is more to the conversation, because the conversation exists in the real world. If "Quality program" does not take into account the audience, then its "Quality" is tenuous at best. The guys who develop it, teach it, learn it, all agree it's Quality. That's a rather useless assessment if its the only criteria for Quality in an organization that spouts itself as World Wide. Certainly, different world cultures accept different Programs as Quality. Again, . . . therefore, Quality is a changeable assessment depenadant on public view. jd

WELCOME, Rip!!! Though I wonder how it is that you lived my life, while I was living it!!!!!!! You'd be amazed how many of us lived (and loved) those exact moments - seperated by a year or two, and a state or two, sometimes even a country or two!! My story stymied at Life, but other than that, I might have been in your Philmont Crew ('75, '76) or at the '73 Jamboree with you or a dozen other "Rippish" Scouters. Did you have to live through the red beret years???? I(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

eisely - Thanks for the story. But help me understand. I've got the background, but not the details. Has Norwalk issued permits to groups similar to the BSA? This is discrimination against the Scouts because . . . jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Not to digress too much, but, CC, is the "Texas Badge" an award????? Perhaps, it's like a Rank Step up toward the "New York" Award!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mommaspence, plan ahead so that any physical or outdoor activities have "rainy day" backups handy. Where do you meet? Don't forget to prepare the physcial environment!! Especially if it's your home! Wolves aren't generally ill intentioned - just messy, clu

Hola - I think, BW, your words confuse me. It seems you want to have this two different ways. I'm not sure these two sets of words from your last post go together very well. ..."By the way Bob, Im just curious which came first the quality leader or the people that trained them?" Easy... The quality program came first, then the leaders who learned how to do it, then the leaders who learned from them. " "what I am proposing isn't that "definition" of a quality leader is one who creates a quality program, but that the result of quality leadership is a quality program. " Of course, . . . the quality program cannot be the result of quality leadership if, indeed, it came before the leaders who learned it and trained others. I guess I'm not getting something. Also, BW, your words give no respect to the many untrained, "unQuality" leaders whose efforts, mistakes, time, sweat, passion, money, creativity and Spirit eventually led to the "quality" of which we are so proud and take for granted. And, if those people did actually exist - perhaps someone would like to argue the point - then doesn't it stand to reason that "Quality" is a journey rather than the place we are standing today - or any single place BP stood 100 years ago? Doesn't it stand to reason that there are still many Scouters who fit that description? "Quality" programs grow and change, and its quite difficult for "Quality" leaders to be the change agents, being neck deep in their aforementioned "Quality" program. Often, "Quality" is a result of dumb luck, deliberate risks and serendipitous errors and coincidence - to be sure, I intend no slight to training and quality leadership - but there is more to the real world. Going back to the original quest to prove or disprove BW's hypothesis that quality leadership is the greatest impactor of quality program . . . I submit . . . since "quality" is obviously a "qualitative" assessment, then the court of "public opinion" has a greater impact on program than quality leadership. It's not the designers of the program, nor the leaders of the program who in the end pass judgement on "Quality", but the folks who choose or not, to participate; the folks who fund or don't fund said program; the folks who press for changes or whose behavior and beliefs alter said program. For example, Bobcat #8, the lack of acceptance for a Unitarian Religious Award, Tiger Cubs, and Blues for Tiger Cubs. The world around us can't be ignored. What will we do if and when the Supreme Court changes the Pledge of Allegiance? Unfortuantely, this truth leads to the worry that "quality" for one is not quality for all. And, of course, that would be a whole new thread . . . or two . . . jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

AAAWWWWWWWOOOOOOooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! We Wolves welcome you, mommaspence!!!! And we all wish you gobs of luck and tons of FUN. Ask anything and here's the place to find an answer -- often more answer than you wanted!!! First, though, you are a Den LEADER. Sorry, but "Den Mother" is a bit archaic and all us alpha male Wolves get itchy when we hear it. Have you seen the "Program Helps"? It's a great starting point. With that, the handbook, and a few other resources, you're good to go -- well, at least good to get a running start! The "Program Helps" shows ideas for 4 meetings each month. Most Wolf groups don't meet that often. Twice a month is fairly common, with a field trip replacing a third meeting. It's also pretty common to Not meet the week of the Pack Meetings. The key here is your comfort zone - especially at the beginning. You run your Den they way you see best. Some families may fluster, some may leave, others may join. . . offer a good program and everything else tends to fall into place. You didn't talk as if the traditions of your Pack are very "Scouty" or very cohesive. Sadly, some Packs act more like playdate organizers. I hope that's not your situation. Whatever questions and problems arise, bring them back here for specific problem-solving sessions. These Scouters are the best in the world -- or so they keep telling everyone!! The growth of a boy - in or out of Scouting - is obviously the responsibility of the parent. You're just here to volunteer to help their son grow and benefit from the Cub program, its Purposes and Core Values. The handbook asks for BOTH an Akela (parent, nanny, older sister, guardian, etc.) and a Den Leader sign-off. We work on many achievements, electives, belt loops and other Awards as part of our Den Meetings, but you can't, and shouldn't try to, do it all. Have fun and plan toward the theme of the month. Then see which activities qualify for which Achievements and Electives. For example, August's theme was "Scouting the Midway" so my Den made two Carnival games - Ring Toss and a marble version of ski-ball. We met three times that month, plus the Pack Meeting Carnival. None of my Cubs have earned their Bobcat yet so, of course, we practiced those Achievements as well. During August my boys met the requirements for: BOBCAT 1 -7, WOLF 2a,5b,5c,10b, Arrow Point ELECTIVES 4b,4c,4d,4e,4f,18f. We also worked toward the "Marbles" and "Ultimate" belt loops because I used those as "gathering" activities, depending on the weather. We completed both of those belt loops during our September "gatherings". Most importantly we had TONS of fun --- my Den grew from 7 to 16!!!!!!!! (Thankfully, we're splitting next week!!!!!!!! -- Fun is one thing, but 16 feels like being back in my old classroom!!!) Nothin sells Scouting like 2nd grade boys bragging about using hand tools, playing games their grandpas played, and howling like wolves!!!! Well, that's enough for now. I don't want to overwhelm you, and you shouldn't do it to yourself. Do what your comfortable with, seek out support and training, come back here to the campfire often, and have fun!!! AAAWWWWWWWOOOOOOooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! jd