johndaigler

Eamonn, squarepeg - round hole? Interesting challenge for you. You seem to like your square pegs, . . . well, . . . square. How much can you soften the edges and still be comfortably square? Definitely time to think out of the box. For you and, maybe, for BSA. How about something along the lines of an experimental test site? There are any number of ways to take the experiment, but the point is to create a Unit whose experiences will help us all grow. (I'll use "crew" for simple consistency, but this is not your father's venturing!) It could be: A Crew which focuses on teaching the Program (patrol method, etc) to neighboring troops. A Crew which focuses on supporting Cub Programs. 4 Crews meeting monthly (1 each week) made up of homogenous-Troop Scouts that are being prepared to become Adult Scouters - volunteer or professional. A Crew which is given specific experiences to consider and use on a trial basis, in order to give feedback to national. A Research and Development team, similar to a test kitchen for a food manufacturer, or the lab guys for a pharmaceutical co. A Crew which tests Merit Badge requirements and considers new MBs and develops their requirements. A Crew which develops "Accredited" and "Quality" Unit criteria. A Crew which teaches high adventure skills to Units getting ready for their big events. A Crew which dedicates itself to keeping alive the lore, history and traditions of Scouting. A Crew which becomes experts and counselors for Webelos activity pins. A Crew which tests new equipment being considered for "Scoutstuff.org". A Crew which tests equipment from 3rd party sellers. A Crew which trains COs. I'm sure there are many more ideas out there - and many Scouters who could add to the possibilities. This could truly be the best thing you do in your Scouting career! What creative possibilities - WHAT FUN! What a great growing opportunity for the boys, the BSA and you! We've talked about "Stewardship" before. We all have lasting impact on a boy or two, and if we're lucky, on a Unit or two. This could be Stewardship on a Program and National Organization level. I wish I lived near enough to be a part of the process! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

And, of course, internet and "phone in" polls have NO scientific value or real-life validity.

hey, Kenk yeah, NEIC for me jd This is year two for my son and I... 7/11 - 7/15. Sorry to hear about the collarbone. But at Fun with Son??? Sounds like a story that the grandchildren will hear!!

Thanks. That's what I thought, but I wonder if BSA would rather have "lone scouts" or "non-scouts"? jd

There are communities (Like CNY's) where the Troops don't meet the expectations of parents and/or Scouts. Can any Scout establish himself as a "lone scout" and Program himself? jd

R7, did you catch any of the details that might allow us to track down that poll? I'd be shocked at 80% - especially since we clearly don't have 80% of active posters here on this thread showing suppport - a group that I would have thought leaned a bit more toward the right than the average American community. jd

5 DAYS 8:30 - 3:00 $90 Can't speak for Webelos, but the other scouts are Elective rather than Achievement oriented - BBs, Archery, Fishing, Scoutcraft (ropes & knots mostly), nature and wildlife identification, handcrafts (leather, beads, etc.), Whittlin Chip, rock wall (horizontal), large field games, 1 day (offsite) of swimming, sand castles, etc. We end the week with inviting sibs and families to explore the camp activities from 3 - 5 then inviting them for campfire and dinner. Bring your own lunch and canteen - there are several water sources but not specific to any activity area. Portapotties. jd Definitely best week of Cub year!

FScouter, I'm confused. I don't understand that you don't see the harm BSA ATL has done to other "Support" programs. UW takes private contributions and parcels them out to a wide variety of programs, many of which help Youth. That parceling out of funds is often why people give to UW - they feel they're helping everyone in one convenient effort. If we take money that doesn't rightly belong to us - that's stealing. If we steal money from UW, then other groups and agencies funded by UW share smaller pieces of the pie. We are not in a postion to judge their programs, that's what UW does. I don't think we should blame UW for their $$ distribution system because some criminally minded Scouters apparently chose to abuse that process. Another group that has been harmed that we haven't talked much about are the Professional Scouters who are doing the right thing. They're competing against these cheaters for raises, promotions, etc. Ignoring them is like thinking that rule-following athletes are not harmed by their steroid-using peers. jd

R7, first, thanks for your response. It helped me see that I was ratcheting up the rhetoric, as well. Second, murdering my brother hits close to home. But suppose some distant relative in a distant country was murdered "because he was a Daigler, and all Daigler's should die." The crime would put much more fear or whatever into my life, than if it was a random idiot who happened to pick a victim named Daigler. Now, suppose, in my own town their are Daigler's, though not related closely to me, they share my last name. The crime against one of these Daigler's (because he is a Daigler) is much more relevant to me and threatens my safety, my family, and my ability to live my life. The crime isn't just against the victim - it's against the people sharing that name. True, murder is murder, but I don't think we should discount the impact on all the other Daiglers. jd

Sorry, CNYS, this outspoken member shies away from discussing the Methods. I'm just a lowly Cub Scouter. I'm an avid reader though, so I hope you get more replies. Even when people disagree, the discussions always teach me something. jd

At the risk of having to come back tomorrow and moderate myself... "...Thanks in supporting my ideas. Remember my motto " Keep it simple, make it fun "... " Juris, I thought you said you had 38 yrs. experience - you seem to be taking credit for 95! jd

Rooster - You're metaphor doesn't work. Mutiny? IMHO, burning the flag is more appropriately compared to an op-ed piece in the local paper in which I criticize the mayor or the President, or more accurately, the govt. as a whole. Aside from local fire safety laws, a flag burner isn't harming anyone, he/she isn't weakening this nation, he/she is making a politically charged statement. Why would we give this political statement more value than others? Why would we be more afraid of these types of statements than others? The flag is a symbol - a privately owned one. If I choose to burn my own property, who is to stop me and why would my actions be a crime against the Constitution of the US? A crime against the people of the US? Hardly. BTW, going back to hate crimes for a minute . . . Hate crimes are not like other crimes because of their terror aspect. They are crimes which diminish whole groups of people. I doubt anyone here would suggest that 9/11 was merely equivalent to the murder of ~3000 people. jd PS> R7, you can't have it both ways . . . "4) The people who will fight this law the most, are those politically spiteful ideologues who love to inflict anguish and distress on those who truly love this country." "Spoken like a true liberal. Speaking of posturing, I like how you turned a debate on flag burning into an opportunity to slander conservative politicians." (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Freddy, Welcome!, though I wish you were here for better reasons. I'm sorry that you're caught up in this. IMHO, "Should" means SHOULD - don't think too hard about it. The expectation is that you report it to the SE. Whichever adult was first told about this by the accuser should have contacted the SE, WITHOUT discussing it with other adults. I know that seems a bit counter-intuitive, but the privacy of both the accused and the accuser are paramount - and this process also helps get the people involved closer to the truth, appropriate consequences, and healing if needed. This isn't a situation that gets a Troop level solution. A 25 minute video hardly makes any of us professionals regarding sexual abuse and working with the people involved in suspected cases. No surprise that we try to think our way through the crisis, but that's why YPT is very clear and this particular topic is repeated in other training, and spelled out in the G2SS. Most of us don't truly know what to do - so we should follow the prescribed plan. The apparent openess with which this has been handled is to be avoided. Though I'm sure you're trying to do the best for everyone, your unit's actions have judged the accused. You've put isolating (punishing) conditions on the accused based on the comments of the accuser. (With complete respect for the alleged injury to the accused, and with no intent to minimize its seriousness) That public punishment may in the end be more damaging to the accused than anything that happened to the accuser. Why have you chosen to believe one boy over the other? You say the accuser's parents aren't happy? If I were you, I'd also be concerned about the parents of the accused. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Rooster, though you're turning up the rhetorical heat a bit, I'm not sure I disagree with you, but you've isolated one scenario - I think there are other examples that may show the need (or atleast the public's appreciation) for situationally-specific laws. Crimes against children are more harshly punished than crimes against adults. Crimes against civil servants are more harshly punished than crimes against others. Your post could be used as an argument against the proposed amendment. Would you make crimes against one piece of cloth more harshly punished than crimes against others? Would you give the govt. control over just this one piece of your personal property, or will you let them control others? jd

FScouter - take another look at my last post. I think I explained who gets hurt when Professional Scouters steal money. And I didn't even mention the black eye that every one of us carries around for a while. Also, the quality of other ATL programs is unimportant in this situation. I can't imagine our integrity should be judged against their effectiveness. jd

BW - I'm trying to understand your posts, but I don't. This isn't a quality issue; there are no volunteers or boys involved in this equation. This whole story is about Professional Scouters making bad, if not illegal, choices. I'm sure we all hope that ATL Scouts received a quality program and I'm sure they all get one that could be better if their leaders got more training; but this is about how Scouting Professionals stole money from underprivileged kids. By cooking the books and accepting an unfair share of charitable funds, BSA ATL made sure that other programs built to help kids in that city received less funding. Lieing is bad enough, stealing is worse; stealing from the kids you're dedicated to serve,is reprehensible. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Kahuna, nice visual, LOL. Can we even calculate the $$ already spent by Congress on this? Can you imagine the cost if it gets to the state ratification process? jd

So far, so good. Thanks to everyone for your great thinking and decent treatment of each other. jd BTW, this as proposed would be a Constitutional Amendment and if the Senate passes it, then the process would continue on to the states for ratification.

Welcome, Smokey!!! Nice Hat!!! I have a great appreciation for old-school!! Good Luck with the new Unit!!! jd

I know this is a passion filled topic. But it's going to be brought here, so I thought I would start it with a plea for us to stay on the topic and shy away from pumped up rhetoric, name-calling, and all the other junk-posting that comes with emotion enwrapped threads. Today the House passed a bill that would give Congress the right to ban flag-burning and include that amongst the list of things the Bill of Rights does not protect. It now goes to the Senate with the best chance ever of passing. First, I have never felt the need to burn a flag - except as part of a retirement ceremony. My father and brother were US Army and I have family who were in Manhattan on 9/11, though luckily not near the Trade Towers. I also have a brother who works at the Pentagon - he was traveling that day. I also have a brother who was a Vietnam-era Conscientious Objector. Needless to say this topic has family history, as well. IMHO, it is an unecessary infringement on a citizen's rights to ban flag burning. Since I have the right to own the flag, then it is certainly my right do with as I please. It is also my right to criticize my govt. Raising the flag to a level where in conversation we also use the word desecration, for me, borders on raising it to the level of idolatrous. The flag is an important symbol, but it is not, and should not ever become, Sacred. There's more to say, but I'll leave that till others have had their voice. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

juris, how do we reconcile "like Scouting" with your suggestions? How do we reconcile "stupid activities,( as quartely camporee, food drives, highway or park clean ups, or councils financial drives and etc..)" with duty to God and Country, Do a good turn daily, help other people at all times, Leave No Trace, World Conservation, etc. etc.? How are we to reconcile "( Scouting is not a laborotory, but a methodoly, that works if you apply it correctly)" with your obvious sense that you know more than the designers of that methodolgy? When you're gone, will the next SM just redesign the Unit so that it fits his image of what Scouting should be? What exactly did you say that was bragging? And what do you consider worthy of bragging about? jd

OGE, time and again we see that your "Accredited" idea is worth pursuing further. Have you ever put it concretely down on paper? I agree the "Quality Unit" program has a minimalist approach and gets minimal success. If we raise the bar - at least for discussion sake - perhaps the surfacing ideas will lead to improving the "QU", if not the creation of a new higher "Accredited" standard. I'd be VERY interested in the process for Cub Units. I'd also like to see built-in some level of appreciation for "experiential experimentation" as opposed to blind following of the Program status quo. Dkurtenbach, perhaps a postive, rewarding approach will achieve your goal. In a volunteer group like Scouts, it would be pretty difficult to police requirements- without having a terrible impact on morale and volunteerism. Perhaps, as OGE suggests, if we reward the Units that better reflect the overall Program, it would motivate those Units that do not. jd

Cub connections? Webelos Activity badge advisors? Help Cub Units "Outdoorize" themselves? Committee members? Religious Emblem advisors? Camp staffers? District trainers? CORs? Unit Commissioners? Campfire storytellers? Scout Lore/History spreaders? Fundraisers? Popcorn Eaters? Enjoy! I think it's a great idea! Print up business cards so you can always carry a piece of the Unit with you. Thank you. jd

Next Summer's themes are "Invent a Reason to Celebrate"; "Red, White and Baloo"; and "Scouting it Out!" OR Sun Busters Star Seekers Moon Chasers There and Back Again: A Cub Scout Holiday Camp Vespers Knightly Nights Camp Night Lite Race to TAPS Make and Take, Shake and Bake, Come and Go Camp Camp Carpe Diem! Night Flyers Mid Summer's Eve What a Great Reason to Stay up Late! Camp Campfire Nights OR Find a tribal word for Dusk Theme it around some Native Legend that features the oncoming night Have Fun!!! jd

sorry, guys. Everyone else needs to be careful though, Grandma always said these things happen in threes. jd