johndaigler

Though the pursuing the idea could certainly redirect the original posters focus, I don't think it's much of a stretch to BW's assumption. Obviously, we won't know until drockstur revisits. IMHO, it IS a big step from "not encouraging uniforming" to making the Unit decision that "uniforms are undesired". Speaking of assumptions, it sounds like the uniforms are desired for Eagle events and other "photo ops". If that's the case, I would suggest that, THAT decision cheapens the original choice. Either believe that uniforms are worthwhile or believe that they are not. jd

The problem with doing your own thing is that it's often done for the wrong reasons. If a Unit actively evaluated a piece of the program and decided a different path was a better local option - then I'd love to discuss with them their thinking and understand their choice. I love Thinkers. I don't believe there's any piece of the Program handed down from the Heavens, so there isn't anything above being dissected and thought out. If you really do that much thinking about it though, IMHO, you'll end up pretty close to what the Program contains. (Check out the "wood shop layout" post from FB.) The other problem with DIYers, is that you usually don't know what next year will look like. The CM changes and all of the sudden their are different plans and ideas -- everyone's back to reinventing wheels that are pretty round to begin with. Let me say it just one more time . . . Stewardship. I think one of the most important aspects of following the Program is that it gives all the stakeholders a common language. We all come at this "game with a purpose" with different experiences and priorities - different "purpose". The Program gives us a way to meld all our individual selves into a cohesive, coherent (and successful for 75 years) group aimed at helping the boys grow. I think CNY's choice is a no-brainer. jd

The Academics and Sports book offers some suggestions on how to organize just such a day. Just a Suggestion: Try to get a handle on how many participants you can expect and have the belt loops right there to award to the participants. My guys loved Marbles and it was a good 75th tie in. Try Ultimate. jd

drockstur, WELCOME! I get the feeling from your post that you are a Scout, rather than a leader. Forgive me if I'm assuming incorrectly. Do you know WHY your unit makes this choice? How long has this been the custom? How do you and other Scouts feel about it? I don't think any troop in my district is decidedly non-uniform, though of course there are many that aren't as successful as they would like to be when it comes to uniforming. jd

Trev?

"It seems unfortunate to me that we cannot tolerate dissent. " Kahuna, I hope you don't mind, but I've quoted you just as a representative example. I have read several posts that express concerns similar to your above comment. I'm sorry that anyone would believe this is a possible reason for Juris' departure. Please, believe me, Juris' opinions had little to do with his exit. If anyone would like to pick up Juris' ideological ball and carry it, feel free. Obviously, this isn't my website and I'm uncomfortable speaking for Terry - or the rest of the moderator team, but Terry has made it clear . . . Ideas and opinions are welcome here - all ideas and opinions. Sure, it helps the conversation if you can back up your comments with information, experience, logic, or whatever - but even that's not necessary. Come as you are. Please come respectful of others. Come Cheerfully, and Kindly, and - well I'm sure, even out of order, you know the drill. John

still learning, WELCOME! Adult leader's desserts make great prizes - keep the competition lighthearted and humorous. If the campsite is neat, safe and organized, why worry about the insides of their tents? jd

WELCOME, DLJ! Going for the training is a good idea because it will help you lessen the time you spend on Cubs. The 4.5 hours of training BW talks about will certainly save much more than that over a year. Fast Start and Youth Protection are probably available on-line - I hope you have at least those. For some simple, personal, PRACTICAL, and quick training be sure to read (cover to cover) the present handbook for the boys and the CS Leader Book. The "How To" book is also a great idea starter and completer. And, of course, the "Program Helps" nearly spells out a good program word for word. It isn't your job to find the new DLs. It's the job of the CM, CC and COR. There is no good reason for your Den to be 15 - 20 boys. It's very unfair to the boys, and to YOU! Tell the CM your Den needs to be split and NOW. They should hold a quick parent meeting and the other parents need to step up or boys could get uninvited. I hope no one is willing to accept that result. Shoot for 6's so there's room for more growth. I went from 7 to 16 last fall and, though it was painful and took 2 months of parental handwringing - we split into 8 and 8 and it's MUCH better for everyone involved. It probably would have been even better if we had split into 3 dens. There are 70 pieces to the Wolf Achievements. Of those, 1 says "complete with your Den". Yes, many of them can be (and are) completed in the den, but many should be done at home with the Cub's family. Get a handle on what you want the Cub families to do at home and decide what you can do at Den Meetings and Activities. Communicate all that up front with the parents so everyone can focus just on the parts for which they're responsible. PM me and I can send along attachments that I used with my Wolf parents to help organize all our efforts and minimize the wheel-reinventing. IMHO, in this case, standing up for yourself and standing up for the boys is clearly the same thing. Making your life easier will also probably help these boys get a better (more personal) version of the Program. Good Luck, jd

WELCOME, 148! jd

Gardner, WELCOME!!! We Cub Scouters greatly appreciate such efforts, if your SM doesn't accept this - tell him/her to come see me!! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

J, It's last minute, so I'd suggest going with what you think is best. I don't think anyone will give you a hard time. I wasn't able to dig up anything concrete that would help you decide. Greater Pittsburgh Council is using the phrase "75 Years of Fun, Family and Friends", but I don't think that's a national phrase, just one they liked for that page on their website. Have fun! jd

Beavah, I appreciate your support of another forum member. Perhaps I'm reading past the comments that are troubling you. What have people said to/about Juris that has you concerned? We try to keep on topic here and keep the comments about ideas rather than people, so it concerns me that a relative newcomer would be disappointed in the whole crowd. I've seen people rip Juris' ideas (and I've willingly participated in this), but I'm missing what you have obviously seen as disrespect and more. jd

I'm with BW - his last post sums up who we are and what we do. Going back to Meamemg's original post, she asked how do you get rid of a bad patrol leader. It seems to me, BW is just saying that the problem is best solved before we get to that point. Here are the complaints: He misses alot of meetings. He doesn't tell the patrol about upcoming campouts, so thanks to him your whole patrol didn't get to go to the camporee. He decided to not go to the PLC meeting and didn't bother to tell anyone, so of course his APL didn't know that he should attend. If we talk about kicking him out, we're saying that these issues are untenable, unsolvable and we're at the end of our rope. IMHO, it would be difficult to show that in two months' time we've tried every trick we know to help improve this boy's sense of responsibility and communication skills. Sure, he's frustrating - even annoying. But what truly has been done to help speed up this boy's leadership learning curve? Was this boy a total stranger? Didn't the adults around know what they were getting and the kind of support he'd require? Letting them lead is one thing, but we're supposed to be the invisible saftey net - and, of course, the teachers of leadership skills. Besides all that there are few better leadership training exercises for everyone else in the patrol than to see and work with this boy. If I was a boy in this patrol, I'd be mad as [edited by a staff member ], but I'm not sure if my angst would be focused on the ineffective patrol leader. It seems to me there are others who should share the responsibility. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

LOL! jd

Luckily for the fathers of daughters, boys are also REALLY DUMB!! Not necessarily about canoes and storms, just about "cute blond blue eyed daughters who just got on the pom squad"!!! Chill, she's your daughter - one way or another, she'll knock 'em out! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

What's that old line about "having a piece of your heart walking around outside your body"? Barry, I just went to my niece Jenn's wedding and her father (my brother inlaw) told this story about letting Jenn and her three sisters begin dating. He'd give them a talk about how they might spend time with boys who would put them in uncomfortable situations. He gave them each a quarter and said to tell the boys, "Well, I'm not sure, but call my Dad. And if it's OK with him . . ." I'm thinking those twenty-somethings still carry around the original quarter! Personally, I'm happier knowing I'll have to deal with JUST canoes and thunderstorms! I'd be a wreck if I had to worry about a "cute blond blue eyed daughter who just got on the pom squad"!!! GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE!!! jd

Scoutndad, Thank you for sharing this sad story. Our thoughts are with the family. Our Pack is also chartered by the Lions, so I passed the post along to our COR. I'm not sure, but my guess is that Lions Clubs may wish to help other Lions Clubs, when possible. Perhaps the story could be shared with other Lions COs? John

If I watered down posts, I apologize. Obviously, that was not my intent - and I don't think that was the result. I was being careful not to touch ideas and thoughtful comments. IMHO, what I removed were comments aimed at others that did nothing to intellectually challenge their words. When we engage each other with challenging thoughts and opinions it creates dialogue - even argument, that's great. All I cut were comments that challenged people, not ideas. This moderating thing is a learning experience for me and I purposely took a long serious look at this whole thread before I edited anything. I think the posts I edited, could easily have treated others better without losing any discussion value or strength of point. All I did was help them focus on others' words rather than others' assumed ideologies. Reread this thread, if anyone finds an idea missing, I'll readily apologize. John(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

hey, all, Sorry for heavy "staff member editing". This thread is going along great, except for some of the "I got you, last" play. Since Moderators do not get paid "by the edit" (Which reminds me, Terry . . . ) I'd prefer not to work so hard on any one thread. Please play nice. I don't get why it's so important to keep/put God in our government and the governed portion of our lives. Time and again God is allowed - only if it's in a place of unimportance. God's OK on coins, cuz who ever really looks at the coins once you've figured out what size they are. God is OK on public grounds - as long as it's not a religious setting. God is OK in our public meetings - as long as it's not really a prayer. If I was God, I'd be getting a little irked with the whole thing!! I don't think it can be argued that God has different value to each of us. Why don't we leave God to families and Churches - I think God might like that more than the present situation. That is, if God worried about such things as what humans think. jd

Welcome, Propblast! jd

owl62, I know this thread won't change too many minds in either direction, but spending a little time thinking about these posts helps us all be better citizens. Thanks for posting. I respect the strength of your post and beliefs. I don't disagree that flag desecration is "disrespectful and despicable". "Flag descretion is a wrong against all citizens of the USA, past present, and future. It is the symbol of all that we have been, are and will be. Every one of us is represnted by our Flag. Yes, it is a face-slap to many people. But the flag represents the burner every bit as much as the fire extinguishers (those who would make it illegal). The documents and laws which support the flag support the burner, every bit as much as the fire extinguishers. An obvious question, therefore, is which is more important: the symbol of our rights; or the rights that are symbolized? I don't think our history is filled with heroes who fought for the flag, but heroes who fought for what the flag represents. Disagreeing with our govt. and the right to own personal property are two of the most revered of those rights - not to mention the Freedom of Expression. In seeking to create this Constitutional Amendment, Congress is asking us to choose one or the other. Certainly, in order to stop descration of the flag, Americans' rights will be desecrated, instead. Is that really the choice we want to make? Perhaps, I'm over-simplifying but that's how clearly I see it. jd

I'm with madkins - and schools should travel this path as well! You can't make 'em eat but you do get to decide what goes on their plate. I'll bet boy lead Units don't create menus filled with junk for their own camping. And many of these boys don't have free rein with the junk at home so why supply it at camp? Even corporate America, which makes big bucks off less healthy food, is making serious efforts toward improving nutritional structure in their food lines. We certainly should promote improved food choices. Coffee? Soda? Bring on the Bug Juice!!!! jd oh, and how scary was "Supersize Me"?? Man, the evil things I've been doin to my body for decades. I might have been better off becoming a smoker or a drinker!

Welcome 9933!!!! jd NEIC

Welcome, BBQ! (I can't imagine using small letters for such an important thing!!!) Don't let the TX thing worry ya -- we're pretty forgiving around here!! jd

madkins, good post. But I guess I'm more angered by the ethics issue than you. And I don't mean to minimize your criticism of corruption anymore than you were softening the wrongness of it. Even though I know there are bad guys out there and nobody is perfect - I'm terribly uncomfortable with adults in positions of honor who betray the inherent trust of others. Teachers should be good to kids, priests should honor the trust of families, police should be law abiders as well as law enforcers, etc. I despise people who desecrate their position more than other lawbreakers. A teacher who abuses a child is more horrific than another child abuser, a crooked cop is worse than a crook, if you see what I mean. A Scouter, volunteer or professional, should follow the Oath and Law and their behavior should be above that of the rifraf of the world. It's not acceptable to me that corporate America has its share of slimeballs, or churches do, or anyone else. We Can't be tossing around phrases like "Timeless Values" or "morally straight" and not hold ourselves to a higher standard. We Can't tell some people their behavior isn't acceptable for our group and then be satisfied with this kind of behavior. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)