John D

I would bet isvirtual is closest to the mark on this one. How can a scout be expected to remember anything about a badge he "earned" at a MB mill? The idea of presenting useful content of a critical MB to 40 kids at once is absurd, they won't retain a thing. Each required badge should represent a body of work done by a scout, alone or in a small group, with a counselor he knows, at a meeting he has helped arrange, not in a college lecture hall. If the lecture to 40 kids is acceptable, why not video it and put it on line? Then kids can watch it at home, check a few boxes on a form, no counselor, no making an appointment, no hassle. In most cases a scout who has put forth a legitimate effort has no trouble remembering a high point or two, it's not a "what did you have for breakfast last week" type of question, and quite apprepriate for BOR. If we can't ask this, the BOR doesn't amount to much.

Here in the Mid East we have many good Indian tailors who make excellent copies. Rather than pay the high prices plus shipping we get copies made, shirt and shorts total 20 bucks. Another money saver is scanned MB books. We have scanned 40 books onto a CD, give it to the scouts, they print what they need, evryone has an at-home MB library. Living in the 3rd world aint all bad.

Good comments on a very important topic. I am a bit concerned by EagleinKY post about boys earning the majority of MBs in summer camp. IMHO this is too many, 20-30% in summer camp seems closer to ideal. Earning them at home is more trouble, the boys have to call counselors, the Troop needs to maintain a list of counselors, the parents have to drive them etc. But this is a "good sort of trouble". My experience is the higher percentage of badges earned at camp, the less mature and competent the scout. It also undermines troop morale and espirit de corps when these kids show up decorated like South American generals after a week at camp, but don't remember a thing they learned. Kids like that may have rank but have taken too many shortcuts, other kids resent them, their leadership ability is compromised.

As a followup on the list of abused MBs , what about the idea of requiring all Eagle required MBs be earned at home, the others are OK for camp? Too onerous? How bout having the counselor for required MBs sign off on the camp-earned badge to confirm the requirements were met? Would this spark a rebellion??

As SM of an overseas Troop we see indirect effects of MB mills. American scouts go to summer camp, earn a fist full of MBs, while Indian and other scouts have to earn them one at a time because they don't go to summer camp. It's unfair. What to do? Would some of you please post your list of "most abused" MBs, like Environmental Science? Do any of you have a list of MBs that kids must earn with a local counselor, not a mill, and how do you enforce it? We would adopt

I've always been kinda jealous of the homeless. They go camping ALL THE TIME , have no bills or job to worry about, no home repairs. It has its attractions. In Italy and France they relax under a tree within sight of a lovely cathedral, the towns pay them to leave before tourist season, then the next town pays them etc. Wine less than a dollar a liter. Hmmm....

I admit it's a small gesture but as I write this Scouts from Troop 970 here in Qatar are sorting food at the Sri Lankan embassy. Let's hope other scout units in the region join in this very important effort.

Excellent posts from some quality scouters. Our goals are to adhere a little more closely to scout protocol, finally get our youth leaders trained (video is on the way), try to improve campout attendance with boys doing more planning (hope this helps, not sure), absorbing 8 new scouts into our first new scout patrol, try to get our failed venture crew going again. Another goal is to publish "guidelines" for older scout participation to stop this "show up 2 weeks before BOR after a 3 month absence" business. Speaking of making meetings "fun" we have tried several things. We have 2 hour meetings, all outdoors, (it never rains) , the first haour dedicated to patrol business, advancement etc, the second hour to a "fun feature" and finally a game. This fall we built canoes from plywood, got three done and started on a 4th. This formula seems to work well, the younger guys crank hard for the first hour lookin forward to "dessert", the fun part. Meeting outdoors we can build a fire, chop wood & raise hell without damaging property. A couple parents asked about the canoes, wondering how that helped the boys advance etc. I told them it was our equivalent of a fund raiser. Our troop has all the money it needs from local oil companies, we just have to ask. Problem is spending it, we can't just go into a store and buy a tent, canoe , packs etc. So instead of peddling popcorn or such, we build equipment. Just a slightly off beat way to accomplish the goal of the boys earning their way.

not complementary to Bob. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Not complementary to bob (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

RE Timberline Outfitter 4, this has been my family's home in Europe the last 2 summers. The 5 of us (3 teenagers) rode bikes thru the Loire valley 2 years ago and hiked thru northern Italy last year, each time for a month, with this tent. We use the annex for gear, makes it roomier, and on rainy days set up a separate fly to cover packs or bikes. It's a heavy beast but it never failed us. Saved a heck of a lot of hotel bills.

Just got new Eureka Timberline Outfitter 4 tents, noticed they're made in China. Quality's great, I'm glad I don't work in an industry that competes with the Chinese.

Excellent comments form both of you, my thanks. I think part of it is a vicious circle of reduced expectations. The PLs no-show at camp, so they can't be relied on, so the SM does more, the PL positions become less important so the guys say "why show up, SM will do it" . It is a hard circle to escape , a trap I helped build. Our habit of promoting guys who disappear for months is also a contributor but the rules are vague, what is active etc. We will try to make the campouts as interesting as possible and also make it clear that the PORs job counts, they are needed, and when they do show giving them some responsibility and holding them accountable. A consistently no-show senior scout will advance slowly if at all.

Ditto on rebar stakes. Here in the Middle East we still have blacksmiths who make rebar stakes, they're the best.

Thank you for your input Eagle. Our camping is not always "fun" simply because we are in the Arabian desert, no fresh water, no showers, no picnic tables, dust storms, brutal heat etc. It looks like the pictures from Iraq, not the hollers of Kentucky. Even a cactus needs watering here. A question about each of your points. Can a 1st class scout advance to Star without going camping? What if he is a PL? I have never denied a rank to a scout simply because he has not come on outings, maybe we should. Maybe require older scouts to come to 2 campouts a year to earn their POR. What is your list of non summer camp MBs? Never heard of this, not sure how we could enforce it since out guys attend camp all over the US. I agree many summer camp MBs are worthless junk but it is the way things are done nowadays. It's a form of rank inflation. Good idea on the "fun" outing and the preparation or training events. Do you really turn away the boys who fail to turn up at the prep events? Brave guy. We are going to Kenya next year and are planning some fitness events , mile run etc to make sure boys are fit enough to climb Mt Kenya. The moms of the fat guys are gonna yell at me, oh well..... Third point, is a non participating scout helpful and friendly? Is a PL who hasn't been camping with us in a year helpful? Not very. What would you do in this case? John D

Good suggestions, we'll hang in there. We are seeing some positive signs, like boys who bailed coming back to scouts after tiring of 7 days a week swim practice. Another thing we're trying is camping close to town, we have a spot only 15 minutes drive, hoping the lads can "commute" to the campout. It's not the Norman Rockwell campout but it might help. What about the "I only camp at summer camp" crowd? Anybody notice this trend?

The topic of conflicts with other activities is not new but recently attendance at our campouts has dwindled, largely due to the band and swim programs at school, both popular with our guys and run by fanatics. Both are DEMANDING kids come in for practices on weekends or they will be KICKED OUT, humiliated, shamed, expelled etc. The campsites are only about 90 minutes drive from town but it's too much hassle for parents to come get Johnny at camp, take him to band and return him to camp. So they miss the campout, they don't advance and now the parents are griping. The demands of the band and swim programs have escalated recently from 3 to 4 afternoons a week plus weekends, is there no limit? And always the sword of Damocles hangs over their heads, no shows get the boot, no excuses. Some scouts have told me they simply won't go camping with the Troop, they can get enough outdoor advancement done in a weeks summer camp without the conflicts. If this continues we will become a Troop that doesn't camp, guys come to meetings and summer camp, that's it. Is this the future? I've heard a lot of Troops have thrown in the towell on conflicting activities, hardly camp at all, and encourage Johnny to do summer camp. What a lame result. Recently we have added new features to our campouts, shooting, archery, canoes, rockets but the problem is not the content of the outing.

another attempt...I would also say the SM in this case was wrong, clearly GK had all the requirements and I have passed kids that were far less active. Good luck to you and your son.

(got cut off) We do not hear his side. I'll bet in his 20 yrs he has pushed a lot of boys to excel, maybe get out from under mom's skirts and make their way in the world. The SM could have taken the path of least resistance, stamp the form, and avoid a hassle. If GK ever gets to college and ends up practicing some sort fo profession I bet it will be experie

Seems to me several lessons can be drawn from this episode. I admit to being an SM sometimes known for being a bit crusty and tactless, especially with immature boys; sometimes parents complain. Often though it is the cranky, demanding adults that push us to grow, not the politically correct SM checking off boxes on a form and handing out Eagles. We do not hea

part 2... Contrast this with our new SPL. He's 14 and Star, he's tall, his voice is deep, he's a natural leader, the guys follow him. Under FC/FY dogma the guy's a loser. Not in my book.

Several posters have noted the tendency of scouts to vanish after getting 1st class, could this be because they are too young? Perhaps the FC/FY rush places immature boys in PORs and the 12 year old Life candidate is just too young to manage his priorities well. The mad rush to 1st class is placing 12 year olds in jobs that should be held by 14 year olds. When I see a boy doing the "bums rush" to 1st class in one year I tell him to relax a bit, smell the flowers, make sure his school work is not neglected, 18 months is plenty soon enough and 2 years is no disaster. We recently had a 12yr old Star scout on a campout, a product of a MB mill (father is ASM), crying like a baby when he hit his thumb pounding in a tent stake. Had another 12yr old Patrol Leader, kid with 15 merit badges( another MB mill)who sat in his tent and played with toy dinosaurs rather that participate in activities. Seems to me frenzied competition between Troops pushing FC/FY is doing these lads a disservice. No wonder they wander off after getting 1st class.

For two years we have taken a week sailing trip on a 53' steel ketch owned by a local British yachtsman. We pay him about $1000 for the week and feed him. We are in the middle east so liability issues are less of a burden, this might not be possible in the states with lawsuits and such. Before the trip we have two day sails on 26' boats to learn technique, 2 evening navigation sessions and an afternoon cruise on the big boat. John D

We are an overseas Troop sponsored by the US Embassy. Will this affect us? Maybe I'd better cozy up to our local Mormon church!!! John D

Based on this discussion we will go from 6 mos between BOR to 4. Probably the best answer to your question Hunt is FC/FY is difficult for overseas troops. The season begins in Sept, first campout is Oct, last campout is March, season ends in early June with only a few guys doing summer camp. We have both Muslim and Christian holidays, both Ramadan and Xmas take their toll. We also have a "theme" based approach where a meeting consists of both advancement and a "theme", such as rockets, sailing (we have access to a 50 foot steel ketch so we are a bit like sea scouts), the military (trips to the army base and talks from guys back from Iraq), etc. For the last year we have been building our own canoes from plywood and epoxy, all ages of scouts helping, since you can't buy a canoe here. A few themes have direct links to advancement but many don't, no worries. We will meet for a month next spring on the sailboat, learning basics and doing chores so the advancement pace slips in favor of "fun". This probably sounds like lack of focus to some and when we get a 13 yr old Life scout transfer in our 13 yr old 1st class guys get sour looks until the first campout and everyone realizes the Life is a greenhorn with almost no outdoor skills. Chances are he got ten merit badges at a "badge factory" summer camp, I tell our home grown guys not to worry, they'll get there. The pace is slower here, like the good old days, and we are tortoises rather than hares.