JMHawkins

Yep, thank him for his service and hope the next guy is more of an outdoorsman.

I'm a little late to this thread but wanted to commend Brewmeister for his handling of it. I especially want to call out the good sense embodied by this comment: "First, it's important I have all the information before charging off on any path." Scout-aged boys can be terrible communicators, especially with their parents, especially when something is new to them, and it's easy to misunderstand something they've said. So making a special effort to get all the facts when you think something's not quite right is really important. As to the potential future issue about whether this Troop has any sort of standards or not, time will tell, but there are probably a few things you can observe now to give you an idea. Stick around for a couple of troop meetings (if you aren't doing that already) and just hang out in the back with the adult leaders. If anyone asks, you can just sort of meander into talking about how it takes you back to your own experience as a Scout. Nice, casual way to mention you earned Eagle as a youth without coming accross as some stuffed shirt... If you're casual about it and not obnoxious, it should help give you a little credibility with the existing leadership. But while you're there, watch what happens in the meeting. Do the scouts with higher ranks seem to know what they're doing? Do they have at least some self-confidence when it comes to Scout Skills, or even just organizing a game? If so, then the Troop is doing something right, even if there might be room to improve. If not, that probably indicates a wide-spread problem. Boys who's self-esteem comes from actual accomplishments have self-confidence because they've proven to themselves that they can learn and do things. Boys who's self-esteem comes from authority figures handing them Kupie Dolls merit badges and rank advancement tend to lack self-confidence when doing something new because they're waiting for an adult to tell them Good Boy.

Last I looked, "parents of" were the 7th largest CO group in BSA, with over 100k youths enrolled in units sponsered by them. These units serve more youths than Rotary + American Legion combined. They serve more youths than any church-based COs except LDS, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian and Lutheran (it's very close with the last two). They serve about as many youths as VFW, Kiwanis, and Fire Department sponsered units combined. Of all the non-faith-based COs, these groups are the second-largest, just behind non-PTA parent-teacher groups. If you just look at Venturing, they're the third largest CO, behind LDS and private schools. Just to put the numbers out there. Eliminating such a large category of CO seems like a bad idea.

I'd just write on the back of the letter that you won't be rechartering and will find another program to enroll the boys in. BSA needs you more than you need BSA.

So, why do we care what Jerry Sankusky did? I mean, after all, he didn't kill any of those boys. Didn't do any physical damage to them. So what's the big deal? Why do we care? We care because he did emotional and psychological damage, and that kind of harm is worth protecting our kids from just like physical harm. But... abuse isn't the only way of causing emotional and psychological damage to a kid. It may not even be the worst way. It also causes grave emotional harm to a boy to grow up without any significant invovlement in his life from adults - especially adult males - in his community. If every grown man the kid comes across declines to show any emotional interest in the boy out of fear of being thought a pervert, and if the few men brave enough to care anyway are chased off by well-intentioned but overzealous wardens, the boy won't be any better off than if he was molested. Plus, as Beavah has pointed out, molesters will befriend a boy in order to gain his trust and isolate him. If none of the decent men in the community will befriend him out for fear of their reputations, then he will be easy prey for the pervert that comes along and is willing to give him what he desperately wants and can't get from anyone better. So hyper-vigilance and adopting an "if it only saves one child" zero-tolerance, presumed guilty, approach to protecting kids from molesters is not free. It carries it's own very serious risks to the child's health. If you run off the only man willing to be a mentor and friend to the boy because you jumped to the wrong conclusion based on half-understood facts, then you are the one causing damage to the boy. It's a fine line and we have to walk it, but it doesn't help that so many people fear the rare but spectacular danger and aren't even aware of the far more common but less obvious ones. Raising kids isn't easy and there aren't simple rules that we can blindly follow to produce good results. We have to think, reason, use our judgement, and make decisions that have consequences. It's scary being a parent. A Scout(er) is brave.

Since I missed the festivities the first time around, I'll chime in to agree with Twocub. I wouldn't call singing child abuse, but I do think it's terribly unscoutlike. It's also a slippery slope and sets a bad example if adults are willing to be cruel to Scouts as a way of teaching them a lesson. Kids can easily mis-interpret that and implement their own "lessons" and may not know where to draw the line. We collect gear and have a lost and found tub, or occasionally a table, where Scouts can look for their lost gear. If they don't have their name on something, we'll suggest they do that, perhaps even pointedly asking "why isn't your name on it?" and offering up a sharpie.

Eagle732, It's an evolving thing. Can't really claim that it's dialed in yet, but here is what we have for nuts and bolts. Quick background: We're new troop, not quite a year old. We have no experienced scouts (well, none with previous experience anyway), and everyone is pretty young.. The SMASMs wanted to encourage more patrol competitions, so we hinted heavily about a cooking contest. Our current SPL really likes cooking, so he picked up on the hint and ran with it. The Troop Committee agreed to support it by providing token prizes for the winning patrol - typically items that can go in their cook kits. The Stone Soup won it's patrol a couple of those Coughlan's toast racks that go over a stove. They're excited about making toast on the next campout. The last Troop meeting of each month is reserved for the cooking contest. The SPL generally announces the rules and theme the week before so the Patrols have one week to organize themselves. He comes up with the ideas himself, but is open to ideas. We've done both camp stoves and dutch ovens so far. The adults are trying to encourage more backpacking cooking. I've offered to the PLC to do a skill presentation at a meeting in the near future about dehydrating your own food for backpacking trips, and as part of it I'll help prepare dehydrated ingredients for that month's competition. They seem to like the idea, so I'm dusting off the dehydrator. For some contests, the troop has provided ingredients. For this one, the Patrols had to bring their own. The Dutch Oven contests have lasted the entire meeting, but they tend to have easier cleanup, plus it takes a little time to get the coals going. Last week the pre-gathering activity was setting up the camp kitchens, and the contest started immediately after Opening Cermonies. KP deadline was, I think, 70 minutes later so there was time for some announcements before closing. Overall we're still playing it by ear. As things stand, I see one major glitch in our current format. For the bulk of the meeting, only two or three scouts from each patrol are engaged in the actual contest, and the rest of the scouts are, shall we say, under-tasked. They tend to play impromptu, wide-games that usually involve keep-away with someone's hat. The PLs are usually part of the cooking crew since they want to win the contest, so the scouts not part of cooking tend to be the least effective at self-supervision. We need to get some parallel activities going on that keep everyone occupied.

Regardless of whether Zimmerman was a racist yahoo or Martin a thug who found more trouble than he was looking for, outsiders being idiots doesn't help anything. Spike Lee, the famous director, was part of a group of people who (re-)tweeted Zimmerman's home address to the world. Only, it was the wrong address. The address he publicized as Zimmerman's instead belongs to an elderly couple in their 70's with no connection to anyone in the case. They are now afraid for their lives and have already gotten suspicious mail. Perhaps that's a sign that we should take some time and chill out on this issue. Too many people across the country are coming into this with their positions already decided based on political affiliation, treating facts as nothing more than stage props. We should aim to be better than that.

Honu, The guys may have to step up to be leaders at a younger age than your troop is used to, but just look at it as an opportunity for them. They'll need more help and coaching (which is itself an opportunity for the slightly older scouts such as your son...), but they can do it. Our troop started out brand new - we had no experienced Scouts at all. We had 10 1/2 year old PLs. They really had to stretch. But they're doing great. Maybe schedule some extra TLT sessions, but I think your guys can do it.

Tampa, No reason the Patrol Boxes couldn't be used to store a pair of Kudu's Cook Group Kits (KuduKits?). Then the folks who made them woulddn't need to feel bad, their creations are still being used. Heck, could still use the boxes dump camping, it's just that the Scouts are pulling Whisperlites and aluminum pots out intead of Green Coleman's and Dutch Ovens.

They did not ignore any underlying principles. They made a mistake and made some effort to overcome it, showing spirit and good humor. Unlike the 4th patrol that just gave up. If you don't want to call it stone soup, you could call it boiled carrots with pepper seasoning. "Be prepared" isn't just about having "stuff" with you. It's also (maybe even more) about being able to make do with what's available when you don't have "stuff" around. The SPL gave the other two patrols plenty of warnings about the time limit. He was probably more strict on enforcing it that I would have been (they were close to being done), but it's not like the time limit on KP is some arbitrary roadblock- it's necessary to have the contest at all since the meeting has to wrap up on schedule. The cooking contest really is the SPL's baby - he loves to cook and I suspect he wants to make sure there aren't any objections from adults wondering why the meeting ran 45 minutes late.

Last night was the monthly cooking contest. This month it was Camping Dinner. We have four patrols. Two brought food, but two had logistical screwups and didn't bring anything to cook. One of those patrols just gave up, the other, after some thought, decided to make Stone Soup. They put a rock in a pot of water, added some carrots one guy had left over from his lunch, and borrowed some pepper from one of the other patrols. The Dragons made a stir fry that was pretty good. The Wolves made a really good chilli. The Ninjas didn't make anything. The Atomic Tacos made their stone soup. The rules of the contest state that to be eligible to win, KP needs to be done and all the gear stowed by a certain time. The Tacos got cleaned up pretty quick because, frankly, it doesn't take too long to clean up after stone soup. The Dragons and Wolves took a little longer. A little too long. Neither one got their gear clean and stowed in time. So the Stone Soup won the contest. A lesson in perserverence. Never give up!

If people under 25 are biologically incapable of being full-fledged, responsible adults, then it's a very, very recent mutuation. For most of our existance as a species, teenagers were expected to be responsible members of society. Most traditional "coming-of-age" ceremonies for boys happen around 12 to 14 years old. At any rate, the concept that our sexual maturity would happen 10 years before we became nuerologically capable of responsibility is nonsense on stilts. It would indicate a level of incompetence in the design of the human genome that creationists would never ascribe to God and darwinists could never explain as any sort of evolutionary process. Raising chidren, especially infants, requires more responsibility than just about any other activity we routinely engage in. Throughout most of our history, teenagers were parents of young children, and if they were incapable of responsibility, none of us would be here. Our ancestors would all have died from neglect as infants. As an engineer, one of the things you learn is a concept loosely called "numeracy." It's that ability to look at the results of a bunch of calculations and decide if the number is reasonable. It helps catch errors. If your calculations show that the girders for the new highway bridge can be made out of steel girders the size of matchsticks, then there's an error somewhere because that's obviously a nonsensical answer. It used to be that science required a good deal of engineering because the scientists had to invent their instruments. I've noticed over the years that scientists have become less and less engineers.

I gotta say, "I don't know" is a Cub Scout answer for why a boy did something stupid. If we're letting Boy Scout aged boys get away with that answer, then we're setting the personal responsibility bar way too low.

I had come to the conclusion that 11-12 year old Scouts were simiply incapable of seeing empty candy wrappers on the ground. While the candy wrapper actually contained candy, they could spot it from two miles away. But once it was empty, it became completely invisible to them. I'd tell them they needed to clean up their campsite, and they'd say "we did!" I'd point at the myriad of candy wrappers on the ground and say "what about all those?" "Oh," they'd say. "We didn't see those." Well, today we went on a day hike with a stop for lunch at a waterfall. As everyone was packing up after lunch, I noticed the usual ration of wrappers on the ground and was about to remind them to pick up their trash. But I got sidetracked by one of the parents who was along for the hike and talked for a few minutes about the area where we were hiking. Suddenly I realized the Scouts all had their packs on and were 30 yards up the trail. "Oh great," I thought. "Now I'll have to go catch them and haul them back down here to clean up all the..." I look at the ground around my feet. It was perfectly clean. Not a candy wrapper to be seen. Have they finally learned how to really clean up after themselves? Of course one of the Scouts has left his jacket behind...

I discovered a new challenge for a "Are you tougher than a Sea Scout?" show. Welding in a closet. The goal: Move a metal plate and bracketish thing from one side of the closet to the other. The closet is just big enough to wield a saws all, and to get the correct angles you have to get all the way into it. And the closet doesn't have a door. You get into it through a removable ceiling panel and hang upside down from the attic while you weld. Also, every once in a while, someone makes the whole closet rock back and forth. Oh, also, it doesn't so much have a floor as it has a mass of pipes, ductwork, electrical cords, and a hole to a spot in the basement that is essentially inaccessible. Anything you drop goes into that hole.

Well, so some more advice (since it's so fun to give)... I think it's okay to do a lot (or even all) of the planning for the first few outings when you have brand new Scouts and no experienced Youths to do that part. You want the youths to eventually be doing all that themselves, but right now they probably not only don't know how to do it, they probably don't even know what they're supposed to be doing. As the adults, you need to model what you want them to do, and gradually (how gradually depends on how mature your best youth leaders are) shift that responsibility to them. We totally planned their first two campouts and partially planned the third. Summer camp was after that. By the time they got back from summer camp, they were starting to get the hang of it on their own. With PLC meetings, we didn't do that - we kind of just let them run it their way from the start. Looking back, that was probably a mistake, as they've really struggled with that part of things. Now, obviously it's a lot easier for 11 year olds to figure out how to have fun in the outdoors on their own than it is for them to figure out how to run and participate in a meeting, but I do think it took us modelling some PLC meetings before they started to realize what they ought to be doing.

Sometimes I think when cities lose cases like this the proper thing to do is to bill all the residents directly for the judgment. That would be a good test whether the "principled stand" was really that of the electorate. It might also make citizens pay a bit more attention in the next election. Beavah, the last thing a modern model politician wants is for the voters to get an itemized list of expenses!

Congratas! I was part of starting a new troop last year, and we had pretty much the same age range (a few more boys, we started with 22). We've grown almost 60% in not quite a year (started with 22, now have 35) and I'm pretty sure it's because of the emphasis on camping. We have 3 guys who have made every night, and they're closing in on 30 nights camping their first year. About a dozen other guys are in the 20+ night range. We're at 4 patrols, and all of the PLs are really starting to get it. I think getting them camping will be more important for retention than hiking. Long-term, you want them hiking and backpacking, but (especially if they haven't done any camping as Cub Scouts) getting them sleeping in a tent and sitting around a campfire, even if it's just dump camping at first, will help hook them. Depending on what sort of gear they have, a short hike to the campsite would be great. But I wouldn't recommend more than a couple hundred yards if most of them will have duffle bags and heavyweight tents to start with. And I wouldn't suggest sending them out to get backpacking gear right away, better to have some meetings where they can learn about gear and acquire stuff over time. If you do start with a hike, maybe make lunch a big deal. Find a spot to stop half-way and spend some time playing games before heading back to the cars. They're not just out for a walk, they're out for an adventure! If there's any way to get them to summer camp, I'd really suggest trying to swing it. Our guys really bonded as a group at summer camp (we went in July after starting the Troop in April). An entire week together in the outdoors did wonders for them. Depending on the camp facilities, they don't need to be experts or anything. BSA summer camp is pretty forgiving of novices. (novice scouts and SMs too...). If your local camp is only in June and already filled up, maybe there's one in a neighboring council in August you could go to? Good luck with whatever you do!

SP, regarding: At present, the hostility of Girl Scouts towards men pretty much precludes that kind of twinning, My oldest daughter is now GS age, so I was looking into finding her a Troop last week. The Western Washington GSUSA website* claimed to be very welcoming to Dad's being volunteers. I haven't attempted to follow up though. We're in the same general location - have you had any dealing with the local GSUSA folks? * - NB, as much as I could complain about BSA's various websites, I'll note that the Western Washington GSUSA site gave me absolutely no leads to finding an existing unit my daughter might join.

A pack scarf actually sounds pretty cool. Especially if it were cut big enough to be used as a triangle bandage. I don't think the scout store scarves can be used in that fashion unless it was a really tiny person. Our Troop uses custom made neckerchiefs that are the old, full sized one (36" square). I think I got the details from Kudu's site. On some of the AOL crossovers, they look absolutely gigantic! We use a sewing machine with an embrodery feature and contrasting thread to embroider a pattern around the sides. They look really cool, and we talk about "old-school" neckerchiefs as part of being an "old-school" troop that does lots of outdoor adventure stuff. Of course, they're too big for the slides they sell in the scout shop, so the Scouts need to learn how make custom Turk's head woggles... We use the uniform method, but we make sure it's part of the "game" of Scouting.

On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to keep accurate records. To wear a pressed uniform at all times. To keep myself physically safe, organizationally straight, and advancing on schedule. Two. hmmmm, not sure that'll be such a big program draw with the boys. While I agree it's a good thing to teach them to be organized and for them to learn how to keep records (our Treasurer just handed out receipt books to the grubmasters and gave them a quick lesson on how to use them in response to the Scouts asking for some help keeping track of who paid for food and who didn't. We'll see how it goes) it really isn't fair to ask the boys to be more organized than the adults. If Council's records are a fiasco, what right do we have to insist the 12 year old Scout have all his docs in a row? Sure, it's a valuable lesson to teach them that keeping their own records is helpful when some big, faceless and heartless outfit - like a mortgage company, or the IRS - mucks up their info and they have to prove their own case. But do we really want BSA, the Troop, and the adults in it to play the role of the big, faceless and heartless entity?

If BP knew the types of adults we'd have today, maybe he wouldn't have wanted adult association as one of the methods. (oh wait, that wasn't his idea was it). Anyway... Moose, the hardest lesson here is that you usually can't save a kid from his parents. Obviously the Scouts in this troop would benefit greatly from a better program and you're probably hanging in there mostly to do that. But if this disaster of a CC remains in place, odds are strong that you won't be able to give them a better program. Your efforts will be frustrated and thwarted by the CC and will come to naught. If you want to help kids, go find another Troop where your efforts can make a difference. CC will block that at the current troop in question. Tell the Troop CC no thanks, and walk away. But also follow up with three people - the IH of the Charter Org, as well as the UC and DE. Suggest to the UC that he talk to the IH about the situation, maybe after he has a chat with the CC and gets an in-person dose of the current situation. Also suggest to the IH that he talk with the UC (or the District Commish, if there's a good one). Let him know what you encountered, and how it is not going to work and how it is doing a disservice to the youths. Tell him you're open to helping out, but not with the current composition of the committee. You can't fix the situation by yourself, but perhaps the IH, UC and DE working together can. If they do that, and you're still available, great!

One can qualify out of IOLS, at least in the councils in this part of the U.S. I recall a thread here a while back where one of our members was trying to put together a reasonable test-out for IOLS and to the best of my recollection it didn't seem to be working out - the test out would require nearly as much time as the class. I may have missed a follow-up that solved the problem though, seems like it was a year or so ago. How do the test outs work in your neck of the woods, TAHAWK? IOLS is not intended to be leadership training. It is simply intended to teach Scoutcraft to adults up through First Class level. It does not even explicitly cover Scoutcraft teaching technique (say tips and tricks in teaching knife-sharpening), although one can pick stuff up by paying attention to how IOLS staffers teach the skills. Ah, but I did not say they were the people IOLS was intended to help. I just said they were the people who benefit most from it. The two aren't always the same thing... People who know how to get by in the woods but haven't been out there with a gaggle of teenagers and who haven't internalized Patrol Method stuff and haven't seen the official BSA way of doing this, that and the other outdoor thing get the most benefit from IOLS, at least from what I've seen. They have the T-2-1 skills, but need to relate those skills to youths. I think IOLS does that, or at least gets them thining in that direction. The single comment that sticks with me the most from my IOLS course was the CD, late afternoon on a chilly November Saturday, asking if any of us were a bit cold. Quite a few hands went up. He reminded us the Scouts are smaller, skinnier, often don't have the fancy clothing we do, and probalby aren't used to being outdoors all day long. It reminded me that as a young Tenderfoot I got hypothermia because I quite literally didn't know about it, and it was up to my PL, SPL, and SM to look out for me (which they did). It was a good remider that I wasn't going to be camping with my old Climbing buddies who had plenty of experience in taking care of themselves. Got me thinking about how I was going to need to be constantly planning for how I would step in to save the situtation, without actually constantly doing it - just being ready in case. That's a tough skill. I'm still working on getting the balance right. But IOLS certainly doesn't teach T-2-1 skills. My goodness no, not if you didn't already have them. I respectfully think it's a bit mad to believe a previous outdoor novice is qualified to take youths out into the woods after a single night "camping" in an unheated cabin surrounded by several dozen experienced outdoorsmen. It takes longer than that to learn the skills, especially to the point where you can use them while also keeping an eye on the youth program going on around you. That's one reason I like the apprentice idea. Yes, it is a time commitment, but honestly, I don't think the necessary skills can be fast-tracked. The phrase is usually rendered as "experienced woodsman" rather than "skilled wooodsman." It does take a little time out there to have some idea what you're doing. But while someone's learning, they don't have to be a useless third-wheel or sequestered in an adults-only training class. They can be helping the Troop while they learn if they have a mentor, so the time commitment really shouldn't be anything more than what they would be doing as an ASM anyway. Someone who spends a year camping with a good Troop with a solid core of SMASMs is going to be far better trained than an IOLS graduate who is on his own after the course ends. BSA of course needs some kind of documentation that the adults are "qualified" for liability reasons, and as regretable as that may be, it's reality and I accept it. But it seems like there has to be a way to provide that documentation other than just a course. (queue minor rant about creeping credentialism in today's society - we're more impressed with a piece of paper than with actual experience and knowledge.) -edited to fix typo(This message has been edited by JMHawkins)

What'll we do with a semi-uniformed ASM? What'll we do with a semi-uniformed ASM? What'll we do with a semi-uniformed ASM? Earl-eye in the morning. Way, hay, up she rises. Way, hay, up she rises. Way, hay, up she rises. Earl-eye in the morning. Chuck 'm in a tent with some smelly socks. Chuck 'm in a tent with some smelly socks. Chuck 'm in a tent with some smelly socks. Earl-eye in the morning Way, hay, up she rises. Way, hay, up she rises. Way, hay, up she rises. Earl-eye in the morning. Keep him in there 'til ten o'clock. Keep him in there 'til ten o'clock. Keep him in there 'til ten o'clock. Earl-eye in the morning. Way, hay, up she rises. Way, hay, up she rises. Way, hay, up she rises. Earl-eye in the morning.