AnnLaurelB

ScoutLass -- Exactly. AwHeck -- Almost-5 *might* be a little young, I admit, especially with changes. But I started sing-songing my kids' names and our home phone (traceable through the police department, if they new NOTHING else) from the time they were about 2. At about 3, I started the address. First, just the street name. Later, the number. I wouldn't be surprised if a kid *started* Kindergarten not knowing, but for sure by the end of that school year. They're learning to DECODE in Kindergarten now; they can certainly memorize facts. But I'll grant you age 5 being a good time to learn this. I was so stunned because my Wolfies are all turning 8 soon. I consider that AT LEAST 3 years late.

@ SP -- There's the concept of agreeing on "the essentials". For most Christiandom, that basically means the tenants of the Apostles' Creed. Beyond the "essentials" (infallibility of Scripture, Triune Godhead, etc, etc...), after that, you get down to the "non-essentials", which I don't think God is all that concerned with. Some folks will live and die based one whether they use the intinction method or the itty bitty cups, but that's not doctrine, that's spin. I think of it this way: God likes ice cream, but there are different flavors available. ~As long as you're using REAL ingredients and not artificial ones~ (see that Creed), then it doesn't make much difference to God whether you like butter brickle or mint chip. (*passes around the saltshaker*)

HAH! You just addressed how a Cub Scout earns the "lead a Flag ceremony" Requirement if he's not a citizen, or for whatever reason doesn't wish to make the pledge. He can SAY, "Ready begin," and then stop speaking. He can then resume with, "Two," (or however the day's ceremony proceeds from there). Hah. Excellent! :0)

@ Moosetracker -- Fabulous story! @ Trickery -- ~*STANDING OVATION*~

Requirement 2 on the Wolf Trail (not a suggestion, a Requirement to earn Rank): "a. Make a list of phone numbers you need in case of an emergency. Put a copy of this list by each phone or in a central place in your home. Update it often. b. Tell what to do if someone comes to the door and wants to come in. c. Tell what to do if someone calls on the phone." To me, it seems a perfectly reasonable addendum to this Requirement that the kid know his own phone number and address. Just. In. Case. Edit: What about if he has to call 911? What if the caller ID system FAILS and he can't freakin' TELL the 911 person WHERE MOMMY IS LAYING AT THE BOTTOM OF THE STAIRS? Just. In. Case.(This message has been edited by annlaurelb)

(*laughs long and loud*) I love the internets! ;0)

To put the same thing another way, I grew up in the Church of the Nazarene. At that time, in addition to of course being teatotalling folk, the denomination also taught their members to eschew all forms of social dancing. That meant no proms, no square dancing, no ballroom hobby, no dance floors at weddings, etc... It was hard as a teenager growing up in that church, knowing that if I attended a school dance, I was "violating" the edicts of the church to which I had made a profession of alliance. The Nazarenes ALSO held as a policy that they did NOT attend movies, nor (after the advent of the VCR) did they view anything over the rating of "G". This was also difficult as a teenager and a young adult. Did I throw those precepts out the window just because I didn't LIKE them, or think they were archaic? Nope. As a 13-year-old having reached the age of accountability, I stood up and professed that I accepted as my own the lifestyle represented BY the Church of the Nazarene. And I lived by them. Period. Even though it was hard. My friends were all going to the school dances. I did not. My friends all went to PG (and later R) movies; I did not. SIMPLY BECAUSE it went against what I KNEW to be the doctrine of the organization to which I had pledged faithfulness. Now, as an adult, as I have mentioned, I chose to change my alliance, and chose a church with a doctrine somewhat more relaxed in it's world view, because it SUITS ME BETTER. But while I was a Nazarene, I upheld THEIR precepts, on principle.

Interesting; thanks for the discussion points! With regard to the Pledge thing... I would certainly *not* take such a hardline approach that it would deter a Cub from participating. But... just my *opinion*, here, is that it's called Boy Scouts of AMERICA. And yes, we're a melting pot, but the Promise says that I'll do my duty to MY country. I would (*personally*) say that whatever country in which a person lives (and participates in youth programs therein) ... THAT'S THEIR country. I'm not going to pay stable fees if I don't own a horse. I'm not going to pay for a satellite dish if I don't believe in t.v. Why would you join an organization that holds "duty to country" so dear, if you didn't intend to do your duty to THAT country, and that might include pledging your allegiance to it. Not that you CAN'T join that organization (because, as has been pointed out, people DO), and not that you HAVE to embrace EVERY line of the Promise, but... why would you bother, if you weren't going to? To me (read: me), that would be like me attending a Mormon church, even though I don't hold with their belief system, just because they throw good potlucks.

Ok. I getcha! :0) That's just me, and I was piggy-backing thread about the SM who had absolutely banned cell phones from camp outs, but one dad decided to tell his son to ignore that edict. There was a long (lo-o-ong!) thread about *very* differing ideas on that issue, which I found interesting. Which prompted my original question about what the various leaders here had (personally) found *surprising* in what their Cubbies knew or didn't know. For me, it came a shock that EVERY kid wasn't taught at least his own phone number from the time he could talk. Different for you? I'm totally ok with that. :0)

"I'm happy to accommodate the wishes of others, but I'm not going to go to a Jewish wedding and expect them to feed me roast pork, just because I only eat pork." Exaaaaactly!

Well, it IS interesting, because I think (I'm not 100% familiar) that it's an issue of drawing attention to oneself and/or elevating oneself instead of God. In that case, though... what about the Pledge of Allegiance? Does that violate that belief system, to PLEDGE oneself to an entity that is not God? In that case, as someone mentioned, it's a bigger deal than cupcakes! If you won't do the Pledge, you don't need to be in Cub Scouts.

I think part of it is that when I was growing up, we wandered around on our own. We had bikes, and *gasp!* we rode them AWAY from the house. We earned a quarter and rode to Thrifty Drugs to get an ice cream cone. All. By. Ourselves. So of COURSE we had to learn our Name, Rank and Serial Number. But today's kids are so INSULATED. They are NEVER without an adult trundling after them (and there are societal reasons that this has happened; I understand that). But still. Part of Cub Scouts IS conforming to "others' expectations." The 12 Core Values are what? They are ...VALUES... which are *subjective*. But as SCOUTERS, we have agreed that WE value these things, and want to instill them in our children. I was reading old threads last night, and was fascinated by the one about the SM banning cell phones, and a parent saying he disagreed with that, so told his son to carry one, anyway because NOT having one violated his "family" policy. Well, if you join a Pack or a Troop, part of that means that you accept the leadership, program, and policy decisions of those in charge. If I require my Wolfies to know their name, address, and phone number ... well, *I AM* the deliverer of THIS program. And if I'm going to haul other peoples' children around on MY time, it is perfectly reasonable to me that I require those kids to have BASIC knowledge of their vital statistics. On the OTHER hand, I *do* agree that sometimes we spend TOO much time sweating the "small" stuff. We need to prioritize!

Thank you; I was sure I wasn't alone in this thinking. That said, I will probably refrain from telling her that I joined the Methodist Church (from a stricter background) so that I could cuss a little and drink a little. BWAHahahahahaha! ;-)

Blake and Mom; My knee-jerk reaction was *exactly* as you both state...but you know in such a PC society, we're often caught jaw-dropped when people fuss over things. I love the "I'm going to have a cookie in your honor, because your birthday IS important... to me." Love. :0) And MY son IS one of the ones whom we have always had the hardest time finding guests for birthday parties; he's an August baby, and it was FOR him, specifically, that I added the "birthday" clause to the fall-kick off. He IS looking forward to celebrating his birthday with his Cub pals, and I don't want to take that away from my own kid. :0) (Cubmaster comes with it's privileges!)

Thanks, guys. :0) Part of it is that I wasn't sure what their interpretation of the non-birthday thing would be; they only just joined the JW's and they only just joined Cub Scouts, recently. We don't put names on the cake; or it might be cupcakes, or giant cookies or whatever. We have usually sang Happy Birthday, but in a compromise, that could be left out. I think because the family is new to that belief system, is why the question of how OUR birthday stuff would be "handled". Someone who's been around that block a few times would already know that the compromise is to, as was suggested: arrive late/leave early/don't put his name on the cake/just don't sing, etc... And they would simply do it quietly with their kid. But she's still learning those ropes.

I've been thread-diving, tonight, and I came across a great line. To quote PackSaddle: "The policy of the individual is subordinate to the policy of the establishment." Love it! And here's why it struck me. The other night, I gave out copies of our list of Summer Gatherings. The Fall Kick-off is going to be at a local swimming hole, and I put on there, "Celebration of Summer Birthdays." We'll miss a few of the boys' birthdays over the break. We're CUBBIES! We like birthdays. We like cake. I had one mom come up to me and tell me that she was concerned how that would be handled. I sort of scratched my head, and said, "Handled?" Well it turns out (this Cub just joined about 8 weeks ago, so I don't know the family very well yet) that they JUST joined the Jehovah's Witness church... and they've given up birthdays. Which she admitted is, "...still kind of painful." I came away sort of worrying that I needed to amend the birthday thing...but at EVERY Pack meeting, we've celebrated that month's birthdays. But I shouldn't need to change that for one kid, should I? Is this an example of the "policy of the individual" needing to be subordinate to the "policy of the establishment"? I work within the parameters of the CO, which is the UMC, and we love our birthday cakes. I absolutely want to be sensitive to their family beliefs, but on the other hand, doesn't majority rule?

Okay, okay, okay. A DADDY with a stroller. There, happy? ;0)

Beavah, you've never been where I live, evidently. And if it's a matter of bleeding to death, yeah, any port in a storm. But REMEMBER! A lot of kids have been taught to NOT TALK TO STRANGERS. I was simply trying give them an example of who might be approachable; I also mentioned someone with a name tag (such as in a store) or someone behind a counter (almost anywhere). I didn't LIMIT it to mommies with strollers; I simply used that in my narrative. Poetic license, if you will. :0) And LisaBob, it took my son FOREVER to learn to tie his shoes. Forever.

Omigosh! I'm laughing at the description of the picture frame construction! Next time, have an EXTRA baggie for that mom, and say, "He needs to do his, but here's one for you!" Oh, and the Good Manners thing? We went to a Beltloopalooza day, and they included Manners with Football, Baseball, Kickball, Soccer, Archer, and BB Guns! They approached it from the standpoint of how you introduce people to one another, which most grown-ups don't even know how to do correctly. As long as you've got a gaggle of googgly boys anyway, why not sneak something in there that will serve them when they reach adulthood? :0)(This message has been edited by annlaurelb)

He's been in my son's class since kindergarten; he's not delayed at all. But I've worked with kids this age for 15 years. I know "help" and I know "done for you" when I see it. Of course kids with special needs have different sets of expectations. But these are 6 kids who are not in special classes, nor do they have extenuating conditions. And again, there is a BIG difference between "guided" assistance, and Mom or Dad simply doing the work for him. I've seen this kid's SCHOOL work, and the projects done by the BOYS looked on par with that. The kid (like my own) can't hold a paint brush without WEARING THE PAINT from head to toe. No, he didn't punch 24 *perfectly aligned* and *precisely spaced* and *identically angled* holes, and tie the cars down and label them with the teeny tiny model information on the underbelly of the car. No, he did not. When they got up there, he had NO IDEA the names of any of the cars. Because he hadn't been involved in the project. Trust me. I know. I have a special needs child in the Webelos Den, and great care is taken to ensure he suceeds at HIS ability level...But NOT his *parents* ability level.

*facepalm* Yeah, we did the Wolf requirement for "collecting" (and expanded, it's a Beltloop! Yay for bling!!) in our Den. One kid "collected" pop tabs in a peanut butter jar for Ronald McDonald house. Was that *technically* what it asks? No, it wasn't "displayed," etc... but he said what it was, where he got them, what they were for, and why that was important. So, YES! Check mark. But ANOTHER kid... CLEARLY the mom had popped tie holes in the foam core, and strapped Hot Wheels down in symetrical order. It was *PERFECT*. I know this kid. He did not, Ah say NAWT, do that project. And SHE stood up there WITH him and prompted him. I was like, did he even OWN a Hot Wheels before this? Whatevs. He did not end up earning Wolf.

(*raises hand quietly*) May I humbly point out that in this day and age, 14 Cubsters does NOT mean a pool of 22 adults. For my 13 Cubs, there are only 17 adults, since most of them are single parents, and some of these kids are siblings in different Ranks. However, that being said, I call malarky when other single parents (I am one) tell me they don't "have time". Really? You want your boy in Cub Scouts, but you don't "have time" to help? I'm single. I work full time. I have a teenaged daughter and HER activities to deal with. I have a home, a yard, and a dog to look after. Just. Like. You. But I manage to be both the CM and a DL, thank you very much. We each MAKE the time for what's IMPORTANT to us. The simple answer is that, in a Den of 7 Bears, if ONE of those adults won't step up, then they have CHOSEN their priority. Put them in a room together, tell them you're going to lead the other Den, and it's closed. When they leave the room, they'll either have chosen a leader or chosen to disband. But I realize the whole PC-ness these days makes that hard. Good luck! I agree that you need to make your decision NOW.

The thread about what ages of Cub Scouts can/should do as far as cooking on campouts made me think of something. I wanted to answer, "Yes, I would think by at LEAST Web2, a boy should be able to puzzle out some BASIC cooking, even if NOT in Scouts." And that leads me to mention that I was stunned, *STUNNED* when 3 out of 6 of my Wolves ~didn't know their own addresses~. We were working on the Reading/Writing Beltloop, and they were supposed to write me a "proper" letter (on the form I gave them), then address the envelope CORRECTLY. I gave them all samples of what their envelope should look like, but instructed them (as we sat around a table) to write their OWN name and address in the proper place. 3 of them had NO IDEA what their OWN address was. Not even close. "What do you MEAN you're almost through with 2nd grade and you DON'T KNOW YOUR ADDRESS?!?" I taught my son this from the time he could speak, practically. I sent a text to the Wolf parents that night, with "homework" for the next Den meeting. I said that 2nd graders, never mind Cub Scouts, should DEFINITELY know: 1) A parent or guardian's FULL NAME, 2) That person's phone number WITH area code, 3) Their FULL ADDRESS including city (we're rural; it matters). At the next Den meeting, I started quizzing them. I said, "Okay, so we all go to the Widget Festival downtown. You get separated from the group. What do you do?" They knew they should find a policeman (or a mommy with a stroller is a good bet, too, I told them). Okay, good. "But what do you TELL the policeman? Do you think he KNOWS where you live or who your parents are? Does he just KNOW what your dad's cell phone number is? Some of your moms don't have your name, either. HOW does the policeman help you get home if you can't tell him WHERE OR TO WHOM you belong?" I quizzed all 6 of them popcorn style, and they seemed much improved, but honestly, I was still stunned that I'd had to teach 2nd graders (and their parents) that they should know their address and phone number. Jeez. What have you been surprised that you've had to explain/teach/demonstrate to Scouts?

Exactly. Women shouldn't feel that they should BECOME men in order to teach a boy stuff. I look at it like this: I'm teaching my son to grow into, what I as a woman, would LIKE a "good" man to be. However, while I *can* do these things, and make it fun for the boys (I believe in banging trees with sticks. And booger jokes), I will not hide my disappointment that there *AREN'T* more responsible men willing to step up and invest in boys' lives. At least around here. That being said, I would like to say "thanks" to the men who DO step up. :0)

A friend of mine, who also is a mommy Den leader, adds: "The Cub Scouts has a wonderful tradition of female leaders stepping up for the boys. My grandmother was the Den Mother for her sons (my Dad and my Uncle Robert), and when they became Boy Scouts, my grandfather was a leader. Back then, the adult leader of a cub scout den, was expected to be a Mom. "I'm a lady. Under my khaki Den Leader shirt, I'm wearing a pink shirt, I've got cute earrings on, and maybe I've got my pink loafers on my feet. I taught my boys how to whittle with a pocket knife, how to cook outdoors (and clean up) like a boy scout does it. Can I teach my boys to do the manly things they want to learn? Sure. Would they *rather* learn from a manly man? Yep. But if one isn't handy, I can step up so they can learn. "There was a den in our Pack.. with a woman leader (also a school teacher). she was a girly girl. Their den of mostly single moms and sons, never camped out. They didn't rough it. at all. I often felt bad for those boys who NEVER got to camp. I vowed never to rob my boys of the experience of going camping because *I* would rather sleep at home in my soft bed and put on clean, sweet smelling, girly clothes and paint my nails. "For 3 years, I got dirty and slept in a tent and broke every finger nail, teaching them to tie knots and whittle sticks, and put up tents. It was one of the best times of my life, and I'll never forget it. I'm glad to step daintily aside now as my son continues down the path as a Boy Scout, and watch him and the manly men. (LAURELANN SPEAKING AGAIN-- THIS IS MY FAVORITE PART COMING UP...) "I agree with you wholeheartedly. Boys learn manly things from men. We women, can point them in the right direction, and show them the way to start walking, but they need the example of actual men to show them what it is to be a man. Girl scouts camp too, but I'll tell ya. They camp completely differently. The girls sit around and talk, and read and knit things. "Boys get sticks and poke them in the fire, and crawl under bushes and up trees. The girls notice birds and squirrels and try to draw them or take pictures. The boys are run around and notice footprints or animal poo and put rocks in their pockets. The girls sing silly rhyming songs with lots of hand motions, the boys do skits with awful jokes involving bodily functions and/or action. Women and men are hard wired to be different." (LaurelAnn speaking again) Exactly. And we shouldn't try to tell boys NOT to BE boys!