AnnLaurelB

~snort~ In my book, a successful Comm Mtg would be one in which one person didn't spend inordinate amounts of time telling other people what hoops they were failing to jump through. That being said, I think in a way a Comm Mtg is a little like a Pack meeting for grown-ups. Pledge, prayer, perhaps a funny story from the last event. Even do a 3-minute ice-breaker. Money. What needs to be done, if anything? Who's going to do it? Calendar. What's coming up between now and next Comm Mtg? What needs doing, and who's gonna do it? You? You? Fabulous. New business. Oh! Add a roller-skating party for Beltloops as a Pack in March? Sound fun? Okay. What date? Okay. Who's calling the rink? Awesome. I think the "FLOP" is when folks try to settle Every.Little.Issue at a Comm Mtg. You just get bogged down in excruciating minutae. But there's no reason a Comm Mtg can't be fun. Edited to add: Not that I would know, never having BEEN in a fun Committee Meeting. But I'm convinced that it is possible. (This message has been edited by annlaurelb)

SMT said, "Cub Scouts prepare boys to be Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts prepare boys to be men and leaders." That's kind of what I'm feeling. I think Webs should ~prepare~ boys to LEARN to be Boy Scouts. But I don't think Webs should be whip-cracked through their Tenderfoot stuff, which is what this gal is trying to do. I was in the Scout Hut last week, and I saw her weekly list of BOY Scout stuff she drills them on, and I call No Fun. Again, my Bears will still be *8* when they start Web1. I would like to teach them to be WEBELOS, not Boy Scouts.

P.S. What is a ticket counselor, please?

You know, back when my son was a Tiger, and I got-roped-into-I-mean-promoted as CM halfway through the season, we did all-Den meetings for several months. We only had 2 or 3 of each Rank, so I would print off the Lesson Plan for each Den, throw some basic supplies into grocery bags for each group (I have a background in curriculum prep), and after an opening, I sent each Den to a different table, and told the parents, "Read those highlighted parts, dig through that bag, flip through their Books, and see if you can crank out Chapter 4." (or whatever) I got pretty good at combining a group game or activity at the start so that each Rank could sign off something that night. Then at their tables, hopefully they'd sign off some more stuff that they went over, together. It wasn't perfect by any means, and there was the argument that they'd NEVER stop being spoonfed if I kept it up, but you know, when there were only 8 boys there, we actually had a lot of fun together, and it wasn't too difficult. If the boys are having FUN, and showing interest in their grade-level subjects (Bears and their Magic Elective, etc...) and you have someone who CAN put together a weekly package, why not? Traditional? No. Fun? It was. And the boys DID earn stuff and advance just the same. It actually worked out okay, for that season and for where we were.

Y'all know that I've had nothing but difference of opinion when it comes to our new (but soon-to-be-former) CC. She's also the Webs leader, half of whom are Webs2's brought from her other Pack, and the other half are new Webs1's. My son is a Bear, and I have not yet girded my loins for being a Webs1 leader. I ~know~ that it's a whole different animal. But I do take exception (maybe, depending, since I'm not 100% familiar with the Webs program) to the attitude that the CC takes with these little boys. When my son becomes a Webs1 next season, he'll *barely* be 9 years old. This gal insists that the point of Webelos is to "teach them to be Boy Scouts". And I'm just not sure that's completely true. My interpretation is more along the lines of Webelos being the time to learn the stuff that you'll NEED to LEARN to be a Boy Scout, when you get there. Shouldn't Webs be allowed to BE Webs WHILE they're Webs? Especially during Webs1? I mean, of course they have Readyman, and their Requirements ARE tougher, and that's as it should be. My son learned how to assist in pitching and striking a tent as a Tiger. He can *almost* do his alone, now, except for getting the fly over the top. Are Webelos 1.5 years of being Senior Cub Scouts, or are they Junior Boy Scouts? This CC seems to want to divorce the Webs from the Pack. Can't they enjoy being Cub Scouts that 4th grade year? I'm not sure I get the rush.

I spun a thread off about this (I can't remember why, now, exactly). But in an ironic twist, SHE brought ME up on what she called "infractions", and she told me that I had 60 days to do blah, blah, blah...or ~face removal as CM~. I emailed my Commissioner, and my Scout Exec, who both called me the next day and said, "WHA...?!?" They reassured me that 1) she does NOT have the authority to censure/punish/fire people, and 2) Both of those gentlemen, and both of THEIR higher-ups agree that *I* need to stay in place here, not she. That said, I have been in contact with the Pack (and the Troop) leaders in the next county over, and told them we are in ...transition... over here. Worst case scenario, they will be more than happy to hook up with us and provide a Pack home, if necessary. :0)

Y'all are cracking me up! Thanks for all the encouragement. I am by nature an ostrich; I DON'T LIKE CONFRONTATION! (in Rex voice) So I tend to grit my teeth and say nothing. When the other mom told me what she'd told the pastor and the COR, I knew (and was relieved) that I wasn't exaggerating (embellishing for entertainment? Sure. But exaggerating? Naw!) The pastor is out of town for the next week; the Committee meeting is Jan 5th. I hope that he and the COR can have a Come To Jesus of some sort before that day. Over the weekend, I got confirmation that two of my favorite families are quitting because they don't like the changes in the Pack. I've emailed my Commissioner, asking for his recommendation for a nearby Pack with a strong Webs program, since my son is a Bear. Either these 3 gals need to be gone by Jan 5, and new AL names in the hands of the Council, or I have to walk away. When you're right, you're right. :0)

Thanks, Mom! lol ScoutNut, the mom who went to see the pastor called me last night, and told me what she'd told the pastor (and the COR, whom the pastor had gotten to join them). This mom is an awesome lady, and she explained everything to both men much better than I could have. And she expressed to them that my sense of urgency is because I feel responsible, but that she and her husband, both as an ADL and a parent, DID feel that the CC is behaving wildly outside the position. She helped them understand the feelings of herself as an ADL, the Cubs (she has a Wolf), and also what some of the parents have said to her about the timbre that the CC sets. And as Mom2 said above, it's the tone/timbre of the gatherings that are the important thing. If the boys aren't having fun, what's the point? Wolf mom got the pastor and COR to understand that something must be done, because it's driving people away. Their response was that we would need to go through "due process", talk to the Dist Exec about protocol, give the CC the chance to explain her methods to the pastor, etc... All of which is fair. At least the CO is now *involved* and paying attention. The pastor and COR are going to assign someone from the church (besides me) to the Committee, so that they have some influence on THEIR Pack. So Wolf mom left me with the encouragement that 1) I'm not crazy; there really is a problem, 2) I'm not alone; my concerns have been heard. And I think that's what relieves me the most, simply that someone has listened. Poor Cassandra--out of mythology. Doomed to reveal the truth and be thought insane. Then Wolf mom told me to hang up the phone, mix an adult beverage, forget all about Cub Scouts for 2 weeks, and have a good Christmas. She's a good friend. :0) Edited for typo(This message has been edited by annlaurelb)

Christmas party last Monday night. The stickers that I'd brought for the gift exchange were swept into the trash, replaced with a ticket system. I was told that the choose-a-number was not the "preferred way". CC had asked for a copy of the agenda for the Pack meeting/party. I supplied one. I was told that the invocation "needs to be before that song." I was told that I should have had two craft choices, instead of just the one, and that I should not have planned a team-competition game -- it should have been a whole-group game. Mind you, this is all AT THE EVENT that I'm being told my shortcomings. In front of parents. In front of Cubs. AFTER my welcome, she interrupted me and said, "The Webelos are now going to do a PROPER Flag ceremony." Which is wonderful, but I had NOT been advised of it. But whatever, fine. Until she came up to the front of the room and STOOD IN FRONT OF ME, and took OVER the opening, leaving me standing there staring at the back of her head. She'd asked for 10 minutes (~10 minutes~ of a 59-minute party) to talk about PWD (which is 6 weeks away). I granted that. But upon her arrival, I was told that she did not like the spot of the 10 minutes that I'd given her, and she informed me of when she would be doing her presentation. Then when I began the Awards portion, the Treasurer got up and stood, again, in front of me, started telling (all) the parents that if their dues aren't in by Friday, "Your son can't come back in January, it's as simple as that." WAY TO SET THE MOOD FOR REWARDING THE CHILDREN! Woot. And, pray tell, why wouldn't you go to the INDIVIDUAL parents and ask for their dues? You threaten the entire room with, "...and don't come back until you can pay..." Then DURING Awards, they passed out the new t-shirts. DURING awards, so that I couldn't get anyone's attention. Then it was time for craft, but oh, no. We had to take a group picture over ---> there with them holding up their shirts. "No. You stand there. DON'T LOOK GOOFY! We can't see yours. Move over. You're blocking him..." on and on. THEN we needed a group shot of them holding up their Pinewood cars over

I hear you. And it's a big reason why I have tried keeping my own counsel all this time. But I got a pretty screamy email the other day, as did the other DL. She asked me if I'd gotten it, we compared notes, etc... So I don't ~think~ it's just me. But anyway, we're going to meet with the pastor, then with the other 3 gals. It will work itself out.

On a lot of points, you're not wrong. Points taken. Of course, since I tend to ramble anyway, I didn't include everything that's gone on. The requests to show up to "closed" sessions to essentially complain about what rotten parents we have. The emails that were sent out to all the famililies by the treasurer ~changing~ my event instructions ... without checking with me, first. The constant interrupting from the back of the room ~during~ Pack meetings with business things. Example: Stopping the popcorn skit to remind me that a form needed to be faxed by Thursday. Things like that. EVERY idea in Committee meetings (that isn't brought up by the 3) gets shot down. Example: Our Troop and Pack is ALWAYS in the city's Christmas parade. We don't even have to sign up; they know we're coming. At the Oct Comm Mtg, the other DL said, "Oh! Parade on the 3rd!" The CC asked the time. It always starts at 5:00; we line up 4:00-4:30. "Well, WHY would they do a parade at 5:00 in the afternoon? That's just SILLY. I can tell you right now that I can't be there, and I don't think my Webs will want anything to do with it." "But... but... we're always in the parade. It's been on the calendar since last ... last May!" (*deep, dramatic sigh*) "Well...you can MENTION it at the Pack meeting, and we'll SEE if there's any interest, but that's a REALLY bad time for a parade, and I just don't see us participating in it." I swear on my Baloo badge that that's *precisely* how she said it. The other DL and I were ~stunned~. It's been like this the whole time. You're right, ScoutNut... The 1st-thru-11th, or even the 111th time it happens, you kind of try to say, "Let's all just get along." But there's a limit to anyone's tolerance of being pooh-poohed.

Moose, I've never been real clear on the whole re-charter dates thing. Confuses me every time. I know that they're making "last call" for Pack dues right now, so evidently it's due imminently. Four months ago, I knew we needed ...something... but I think this experience has shown us what sort of tone we DON'T want our Pack to have. I absolutely agree that it would be the right answer for everyone if they got their boys bridged to whatever Troop, and then quietly resigned from the Pack.

Well, there's no question that the best JOB is Cubmaster!! ;0) But I've been DL for my son fo Tiger, Wolf, and now Bear rank. I had SO much fun when they were Tigers, but I liked Wolf more. Now Bear is a little more challenging because they're not quite as easily impressed. I think if I was going to lead a Den that my kid wasn't in, I'd pick Wolf. I haven't done Webs yet; I'm not sure I want to. I'm a little worried about my ability to get a handful of boys through all their STUFF. I'd rather someone take the Webs next year, and just let me be CM (*crossing fingers and scanning crowd*). Edit to add: T.Turtle said, "... if the activity meets the intent and is more fun then do it..." Amen, Amen, AMEN!(This message has been edited by annlaurelb)

"Does ANYone have ANY: Questions, Comments, Criticisms, Arguments, or Discussion?" They know this is my next-to-last-line. After that, I say something that had to do with the CM Minute. The 1st Pack meeting of the season, I did the poster of the ever-increasing water-depth, with Tiger Fish, Wolf Fish, etc... So after questionscommentscriticismsargumentsordiscussion I said, "Go... be... BEEEG... FEEEESH...!"

I see what you mean, yes. I guess this is where I feel blessed to have worked with kids and curriculum for all those years when my daughter was small. I spent 7 years prepping curriculum for church preschoolers, and some of the stuff THEY gave me was like, "Are you kidding me?!?" "Take a large potato and dress it as Joseph." (*blink. blink.*) I'm sorry. WHAT? No, no, no. We will not be dressing potatoes, thank you very much. So then I'd have to figure out something else as an object lesson. With the advent of the internet, there's NO reason that someone can't find resources to make things fun! That in mind, I've never looked at the BSA stuff and accepted their "potato" suggestions. I glance at it, and go, "Oh. Citizenship. Mmmmkay, here's what we'll do." Yeah, I agree-- there's NO way you can just follow the published outline. They'd all vaporize and turn to dust!! Edit to add: The problem is that people like my oh-please-Lord-let-her-be-sent-away-soon CC see the Pack Meeting Outline, and want to call me on the carpet and say I'm not "following curriculum". Heck NO! Did they LEARN about what Citizenship means? Then mission accomplished. Go'way. ;0)(This message has been edited by annlaurelb)

Yep, you're both right! The ONLY saving factor here might be that we HAVE gotten several NEW families during recruiting in Aug/Sep. Now that they've gotten used to the program and all, some of them are very nice, and ...functional... :0) In talking to my other Den leader, she feels confident that if we approached Familiy A, B, and C, that they would *likely* be willing to step up, if we explained the situation. I did talk to the pastor, and we're going to meet this week before the next Committee meeting and discuss what to do. He, the other Den leader and I agree that we'd hate to see it fold because we DO have about a dozen or so families who DO enjoy the program and participate. Where would they go? The 3 gals who came from the other Pack all have different reasons for coming over. The CC gal was a Webs2 leader as well as CC, and her 3 Webs wanted to stick with her. So she transferred her Den to us. So I *know* part of the reason they came is that they *needed* a Pack to let those 3 boys finish up their Webs2 stuff. I have 2 other NEW Webs2 besides them; all 5 will Bridge in Feb. The Sec gal is one of those Webs2 moms, so that makes sense. But she's as joyless as the other 2. The 3rd gal (treas), I have no idea WHY she'd drive 17 miles here and back for this. She has NO kid in the program; she's just friends with the CC. Her only purpose appears to give the CC a quorum. Now, my downfall is perhaps that I'm TOO fun-loving, and I might tend to shrug some details and things off and say, "Eh. It'll be FIIIIINE! Just...show up and we'll figure it out!" That drives some people nuts, I know. What I don't understand about these gals is that they *are* JOYLESS. There is nothing charismatic, nothing charming, nothing fun, nothing friendly about any of them. Now, the CC is fine with the boys, but she talks to ~everyone~ like they're kindergarteners. To an adult, that's very grating. Again, I realize that the CO doesn't have to do anything that I ask them to. But my HOPE is that the other Den leader and I can present some names of willing parents to the pastor, and tell him that our ~recommendation~/request (as parents) to the CO would be to tell these 3 ladies, "Hey, thanks for the assistance. We think we can take it from here, now that your Webs are Boy Scouts. There's the door." I think the pastor will do it, if just to get himself OFF of my speed dial!! ;0)

(*crrriccck, crrriccck, crrriccck*)(that's the can of worms, opening) Okay, I'll bite. What don't you like about it?

Hi, gang! Just popping in to say hello, and that y'all were right about the gal who came over to our Pack to "help out" as CC when our older children's pastor lady retired from the church. This new gal was ...asked... to leave her other Pack because she was so dictatorial. I talked to her at length; I *did* feel at the time that our Pack would be giving her a chance to redeem herself. So you'd think that she'd bend over backwards to NOT make the same mistake again, right? Wrong. Of course, wrong. I know, I know. I was ~warned~! But we were desperate, and we needed help. Read that: We needed help. Guidance. Pointers. Tips. Input. Suggestions. Encouragement. What we GOT was The Roman Occupation. I'm almost laughing, typing this. Sure, our little teeny Pack has struggled for 3 years, but we have NEVER NOT had fun. We always had fun. Not so much, any more. The new gal came on, and introduced two of HER friends from her former Pack. One was assigned as Com Sec, one as Treas. The CC gal was SO ABRASIVE in the 1st Com Mtg she chaired, that my last 2 old guys couldn't WAIT to resign. Now, one of them was a lump on a chair and no big loss, but the other was my old Grandpa Cubmaster Advancement Guy. I *hated* losing him. But no one can stand this woman. (I can hear the I-told-you's. Yes, yes. I hear you. And you. And you.) And she's dug into the Committee now with her two VIPER HENCHWOMEN. Since the 2 old guys left, NO ONE from the CO has had time to step in and be involved. We've had NO staff liason from the CO (church) this whole season so far (I should have *insisted* on one back in September). So basically, this woman and her two axe-handles have taken up squatting on our land. We asked for HELP. Not for them to take away our car keys and tell us we were grounded. And that we were a big disappointment. And that our father never wanted us... wait. What were we talking about? OH, yeah... Everyone had fled, and the last Den leader and I were telling a Troop parent about finding a new Pack, and she said, "Oh. No, ladies. This is YOUR community, not theirs. You're going to the pastor and telling him about this." So here we are, 100 days into the program, and no one can stand to see these 3 women coming, they blame EVERY little problem on our lack of understanding, our ignorance of BSA policy, OUR failing at this and OUR failing at that ... the "poor attendance" at the Pack meetings was because *I* usually take *70-75 minutes*, and not 59 minutes. Pffffft. Really? THAT's keeping people away? I had a joint Den meeting with Wolves and Bears. I POLLED my guys, "What do you like about Packmeeting?" "Games!" "Songs!" "Crafts!" "Skits!" "Snacks!" They like It All. The parents even started laughing about the games I've made them play. They love me, I'm telling you. My Pack meetings are not the problem. Our Commissioner offered to come to MY DEN and give a "Pinewood Tips & Tricks" talk to MY BEAR PARENTS, but he said, "Invite the Pack, too--whatever parents want to come hear it." So I did. I got a phone call from Tha Vipah, "Soooo...are you taking over Pinewood, now?" "Pardon?" "Well...I see you're scheduling Pinewood workshops when I already HAVE workshops on the calendar. Just let me know now if you're taking over the event, and I'll cancel what I've planned. You can do it. No problem. Just let me know..." I have NEVER in all my days been around such ugly-spirited, yet perfectly self-righteous kindergarten behavior. The 3 vipers talk to EvErYoNe as though they are either a daft child, or a dog who has piddled on the rug. I tell you what I'ma let you know, fang-lady. I'ma let you know that this is NOT a good "fit", and I'ma recommend to the COH and COR that they let yo patootie go. Not, of course, that the CO has any obligation to listen to a single word the lowly CM has to say ... but evidently according to my Pack parents, they will have to. Now that we've gotten some direction (and we did lack it), I'm pretty sure we can take it from here, without being scolded all the time. Boy, howdy. I am about tired of being scolded. And that, friends, is my update. :0)

Well, for example, at the Comm meeting a few nights ago, during my update, I mentioned that I wanted to use the bulk of the Nov Pack meeting to make cardboard "cars" for the boys to wear in the Christmas parade. The Troop and the Pack have marched in the Christmas parade for YEARS. This year, the SM and I thought we'd do a Pinewood theme (I'm pretty sure I got the idea HERE), and I brought that up at the meeting. The CC kind of rolled her eyes and said (in the most bored tone you can imagine), "Well, we'll put out a sign-up sheet, and see if there's any ... interest in doing that." She asked me what time the parade is. I said, "It always starts at 5:00. It ends right before dark, and everyone comes back to the church for hot chocolate and cookies." The Web mom said, "Well WE can't do it because I can't be out at night because any flashing lights will make me have seizures." Yes. 5:00. At night. Every year. For Time Immemorial. As several of you have pointed out, I'm supposed to decide these things. And she's exactly as described -- she dismisses anything that isn't her way of doing something. I emailed the Wolf Den Leader and said, "My Bears WILL be marching in that parade with the Troop. Do the Wolves want to join us?" I don't have to have the CC's permission to take them; I can get my Charter Rep to sign the Tour Permit, if the Wolf DL will come as my 2nd Trained person. We are MARCHING in that parade. TYVM.

Y'all are making me laugh; thanks! I'll catch you guys up later when I'm not so tired. Right now I'm just checking in and trying to hold out for a non-embarrassing bedtime. Ah'll bee bahck.

...is a dictatorial troll. I *was* warned. Thank you, that is all.

*sigh* Well, she's a lawt to handle, if I'm honest. She seems to have this videotape that runs in her head of how things should be, and it's frustrating to her when reality doesn't match the loop running through her mind. Mind you, I didn't have to plan the campfire PROGRAM; it was a Cub-O-Ree, so a District (very fun) guy came in and did the overall campfire. But at our little campfire, we did s'mores, and I told stories. It was quintessential camp out! :0) As for the CC, I *was* warned that she's ...off-putting... I feel like I can deal with it for this year, and next year. Next year I will spend training up a new CM, and I'll be the ACM during my son's Web2 year (and hopefully he'll bridge in Feb). Then I'm outta here.

We did this by default for the back half of my son's Tiger year, because we lost our CM (and it became me), and we only had 12 boys, and no one would be Den leaders. So I just held "Joint Den Meetings"; it actually worked pretty well. But now, with 40 boys, we meet in Dens individually; we only have 1 Den for each Rank right now. If a Bear can't meet on Monday, well... sorry. So that's still a drawback. I agree that because Cubs are grade/age-based programs, it's important for each group to meet separately, then come together at the Pack Party (as I call it) to share with the other guys what they've been doing all month.

Oh, she's just *awful*, but that's none of my business. The thing is, he just dropped the bomb on us that he was DONE. I'm not sure he WANTS to continue, but he's fond of both me and my daughter (they're in choir together), so I'm going to try to talk to him about it. As I learned this weekend at Cub-O-Ree, my new CC (bless her heart) is a LAWT to handle. But I may be able to smooth the way with Mr.C...

Thanks for the responses, everyone; it's interesting to read everyone's viewpoints! We ended up not showing the movie; I *knew* that running around the campsite with flashlights and just being goofy would keep them occupied for a long time. Then we got a fire going, and EVERYONE wanted to make s'mores, of course. Then they ran around some more (we had, as I mentioned, electricity, so there were some overhead lights, or I wouldn't have allowed the full-tilt running amok). I couldn't have IMAGINED getting those kids to sit still for a movie. No. Way. And sure enough, my son said his favorite times were Fri and Sat night when, "We all just played." Now, had we been rained out, and needed to huddle under the pavillion? A movie would have been a lifesaver. But the weather was BEEYOOTEEFUL. Also, over the summer, I want to do a Camp IN (in the blessed A/C'd fellowship hall) for the families new to camping; I plan to show a movie THAT Friday night, but OUTSIDE? I'm glad we didn't try it. We had a great time, and the only thing we used the electricity for was the area lights before campfire, and the electric skillet for the sausage. I'm sticking to my guns on the movie thing, unless absolutely desperate. I feel MY job as Cubmaster is to be ABLE to come up with activities to keep the boys happy WITHOUT electronics.