JerseyScout

The 15 days and nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. I've never been one for OA, I was elected three times and never bothered to attend the ordeals. My troop always did more camping and service than our local chapter by a very healthy margin, so I just didn't see the point. Fast forward to today, a few of my Scouts volunteered at Cub Scout camp over the summer with adults and kids from other troops, and now are interested in holding Order of the Arrow elections. OA was not for me as a Scout, but if my Scouts want to take part, I certainly want to give them that opportunity. They are registered, have been around for more than two years, and the interested parties have camped twice as much just in the last year than they are required to camp in two years to join OA, and certainly have my approval to be put up for election. My question has to do with the week of camping. My troop camps out for a week every summer, but we do not attend the local merit badge mills, the kids set up and run their own week-long adventure trip. Does this disqualify my Scouts from joining Order of the Arrow? Even if it does, I suspect the local chapter (who is always hurting for members) will overlook it, but its safer to ask here than to out the kids by asking this question to the local chapter adults... ..(This message has been edited by JerseyScout)(This message has been edited by JerseyScout)

Wow, what a gift. I'm very happy to hear its going towards the camps and to help out needy Scouts. Could money to council be used any better than that?

How is troop alumni participation in your troop? In what ways do they participate? At 28, I am my troop's Scoutmaster (I started as an Asst. Scoutmaster at 22). Our Committee Chairman is 24, and took over that position at age 22. I have an 18 year old Assistant Scoutmaster and two committee members under 30 (28 and 27). 11 of our Troop's 27 merit badge counselors are under the age of 30. Most of the alumni have returned to the troop in the last three years after hearing that the troop was being run into the ground after our Scoutmaster of 20 years retired (boy-led troop to adult led troop, high adventure to "let's sit down and work on merit badges, the kids never cooking their own food, and even tents were starting on their way out in favor of cabinsm). I hadn't really though twice about it (wouldn't you go back to save your old troop?) until visiting Cub Scout parents commented on it, but the more troops I see at council events and just around, the weirder this seems. I figured if there was a place to ask, this was it. This also does not downplay our parent participation. After a slow, teeth-pulling start (we had an old group of kids with parents who were used to not being involved, only two new kids had been recruited in three years), the parents of the bazillion new Scouts we've recruited have been absolutely awesome, helping out with their time and talent.

I feel that, especially with a new parent, they are fine to come on a trip or two to make sure they are comfortable with having their kid in the program. No training, no fuss, just pack your stuff and let's go. Sure, I'll fill them in on how patrols work and an adults role in the troop ("your mother isn't here, go ask your patrol leader) as we go along, but the official stuff can wait. Now if they want to keep coming after that trip or two, then they need to be YPT. Similarly if they want to camp out for more than a night or two with the troop. As for moms, where's the problem even without dad away or out of the picture? Just looking at my own family, my mom came camping with the troop when our Scoutmaster asked for volunteers, maybe three or four times in the eight years my brother and I were involved. Sure, my dad could have come, but he was a city boy whose idea of "roughing it" was a hotel without cable. My mom, on the other hand, had worked at summer camps in her youth, had started up and run a girl scout troop as a college project, was fully CPR and First Aid certified, helped run the troop fundraisers, and knew half the kids in the troop from her time as a Cub Scout leader, community volunteer, and teacher.

Brain enhancing? Taking ritalin or adderol doesn't make you smarter, it keeps you awake. Its the same as truckers using "West Coast turnaround" to put in ridiculously long days on the road. There is a word for this- speed - and it has nothing to do with enhancing your brain. I was on adderol for three years after being diagnosed with ADD. It absolutely allowed me to focus, in ways that, according to science, my brain was chemically unable to do on its own. For the first time in my life I was able to sit down and actually focus on a task, something it had been almost impossible before. Because I now was able to react like a "normal" person, I was able to teach myself habits to help me cope with an inability to focus, most noticably academically where I went from nearly failing out of high school to a straight As student. This is an important point: these medications will calm down and focus a person with ADD or ADHD. After two years I refused to take it anymore. I was ridiculously thin and I hated not being able to "turn it off". I didn't tell the doctor for a while, I simply stopped getting the prescription filled. In restropect, I could have probably gotten my prescription adjusted to deal with these side effects. I would have gone off it within another two or three years anyway, as my doctor had told me from the beginning that I should only use this to train myself, and that he wanted me off it in a few years. So if you want to make these legal, just legalize speed. To a "normal" brain, its the same thing. Just realize that there are side effects, that it can become a crutch, and that if you (as a "normal" person) really need to stay awake to finish that college or work paper, that you can still do it the old fashioned way with a couple of cups of coffee.(This message has been edited by JerseyScout)

At the other end of the state, our numbers have been in free fall for decades. Our council was forced to merge in 1998 or so after being around since the '20s, merging another council that had already been formed out of a merger. A few years later, our district merged with another district, forming a new one with the boundries of the old council. Just in the last few months, our council went from four districts to three with another merger. Our district itself has fewer troops than it did ten years ago, and some of those troops themselves are in trouble (I've run into a few guys at roundtable who have 5 or 6 Scouts total). My old pack went from a hundred kids to zero in a four year span due to bad management. My old troop (which I returned to and am now Scoutmaster of) went from 100 kids in 2000 to about 15 by 2006, although we have more than doubled that number since I took control in Fall of 2007. Why is it dying slowly dying off? It's very complicated, but bad press about the Supreme Court decision and an ongoing lawsuit between the BSA and the nearby City of Philadelphia is certainly NOT helping us at all. I've had some brave parents tell me to my face that they would never consider signing their kid up for Scouts purely because of Scouting's bad reputation. Its hard to quantify any one reason (city bans, etc) for the downward movement, but its definately there. The question is, what do we do to change the organizations reputation?

Our local Eagle board is ridiculously and insanely nitpicky. I've seen some absolutely top notch, beautifully written projects that they've shot down for some of the absolute worst reasons. For example, and I am not making this one up - one kid was sent back largely on the basis of not being able to answer satifactorily the question "Who will take care of your project if you end up in an accident and are in the hospital for three months?" Another time a kid was sent back because, again not making this up, he didn't know the lengths of the hammers that he was using (he did know they were carpenters hammers, his dad was a carpenter and was loaning them from work for the project). A third Scout (possibly with the best, most airtight proposal I have ever laid eyes on) was sent back not because he did anything wrong, but because he used a computer drafting program that he had learned in high school to do part of the planning, and the committee refused to believe that a high school kid could use such a program (they are a bit behind the times, lots of kids can use these programs now). Not every project gets sent back for unreasonable reasons (some get sent back for very legitimate reasons), but there is a definate pattern... every kid is sent back the first time. So we came up with a plan. First, the Scout has to find a project, do the legwork, and write it up. Then I ask 1 to 3 Scouts who have already finished their Eagle projects go through the proposal with a fine toothed comb, walking the Scout whose project it is through the problems that they got nailed with. They go home and rewrite it. Finally, I use my magical teacher and Scoutmaster skills to go through it again, picking apart any holes I can find, of which there are usually zero or minimal by the time it gets to me. I don't consider using your experienced peers in Scouts to go through your project and tidy it up, point out flaws, etc to be nannying, using your peers and resources is an important skill in the workforce and in life in general. It hasn't changed our 100% send back rating, but at least now the scout know without a doubt that he put forth his best effort in a solid project proposal, no matter what the board may say. He goes home, measures the hammer, makes up some ridiculous plan for if he is hospitalized for three months, and then it passes.

Wall Drug is the greatest place on Earth. Of course, I've only been there once.

Apologies, computer went on the fritz there and posted three times.

I came back to Scouting at age 21 after hearing that "things weren't going well" with the old troop. I became an Assistant Scoutmaster because I figured that the Scouts needed help more than the adults. The fellow who trained me, another Assistant Scoutmaster, simplified my job to this: "Keep them (the adults) away from them (the Scouts)." I split time between the Scouts and adults (spending my Scout time at their invitation), but managed for the most part to keep from telling anyone what to do. You handle it situation by situation, use common sense and, when in doubt, ask. It works itself out. The Scouts, most of who either were in the troop when I left, or were brothers/cousins of kids I had come through with, never had a problem with me, and listened when they needed to. They called me by my first name and there was never a problem with lack of respect or anything else. Seven years later, I'm a Scoutmaster, they still call me by my first name, and there is still no problem. This is not unusual in my troop, my own Scoutmaster was called by his first name by every Scout for his entire twenty year tenure in the troop, and I never saw anyone give him a problem. Age wise the only place that I had a problem was with the adults, but it was still only a few bad eggs, most of the adults (especially ones that had been there when I was a Scout) were thrilled to death that someone had come back. The Scoutmaster at the time (the cousin of my Scoutmaster), who was new since I had left, was happy to have any of the old Scouts back to lend a hand. My current committee chair, who is only 25 and came through Scouts with me sometimes gets mistaken for a Scout by new parents, which amuses us to no end.

I came back to Scouting at age 21 after hearing that "things weren't going well" with the old troop. I became an Assistant Scoutmaster because I figured that the Scouts needed help more than the adults. The fellow who trained me, another Assistant Scoutmaster, simplified my job to this: "Keep them (the adults) away from them (the Scouts)." I split time between the Scouts and adults (spending my Scout time at their invitation), but managed for the most part to keep from telling anyone what to do. You handle it situation by situation, use common sense and, when in doubt, ask. It works itself out. The Scouts, most of who either were in the troop when I left, or were brothers/cousins of kids I had come through with, never had a problem with me, and listened when they needed to. They called me by my first name and there was never a problem with lack of respect or anything else. Seven years later, I'm a Scoutmaster, they still call me by my first name, and there is still no problem. This is not unusual in my troop, my own Scoutmaster was called by his first name by every Scout for his entire twenty year tenure in the troop, and I never saw anyone give him a problem. Age wise the only place that I had a problem was with the adults, but it was still only a few bad eggs, most of the adults (especially ones that had been there when I was a Scout) were thrilled to death that someone had come back. The Scoutmaster at the time (the cousin of my Scoutmaster), who was new since I had left, was happy to have any of the old Scouts back to lend a hand. My current committee chair, who is only 25 and came through Scouts with me sometimes gets mistaken for a Scout by new parents, which amuses us to no end.

I came back to Scouting at age 21 after hearing that "things weren't going well" with the old troop. I became an Assistant Scoutmaster because I figured that the Scouts needed help more than the adults. The fellow who trained me, another Assistant Scoutmaster, simplified my job to this: "Keep them (the adults) away from them (the Scouts)." I split time between the Scouts and adults (spending my Scout time at their invitation), but managed for the most part to keep from telling anyone what to do. You handle it situation by situation, use common sense and, when in doubt, ask. It works itself out. The Scouts, most of who either were in the troop when I left, or were brothers/cousins of kids I had come through with, never had a problem with me, and listened when they needed to. They called me by my first name and there was never a problem with lack of respect or anything else. Seven years later, I'm a Scoutmaster, they still call me by my first name, and there is still no problem. This is not unusual in my troop, my own Scoutmaster was called by his first name by every Scout for his entire twenty year tenure in the troop, and I never saw anyone give him a problem. Age wise the only place that I had a problem was with the adults, but it was still only a few bad eggs, most of the adults (especially ones that had been there when I was a Scout) were thrilled to death that someone had come back. The Scoutmaster at the time (the cousin of my Scoutmaster), who was new since I had left, was happy to have any of the old Scouts back to lend a hand. My current committee chair, who is only 25 and came through Scouts with me sometimes gets mistaken for a Scout by new parents, which amuses us to no end.

Definately. The good thing about this kid is that he wants to do what everyone else does, he's not looking for shortcuts.

My Scoutmaster was known to have, at least once, bailed a kid out of jail at 2 AM, scream at them for making a bad decision all the way home, then showed up at every hearing and court date to show that he was 100% behind them, even if not their decisions. That guy went on to straighten out and is doing quite well for himself now. Made a difference? The same man got me a job that I still hold ten years later, one that helped me pay my way through community college. Made a difference? There are kids out there in Scouts (I have at least two of them at the moment) who Scout leaders are "Dad" because the real dad doesn't care about his kids. I've had two mothers come right out and say this to me, and there are other kids or parents who might feel the same way, but would never say anything. Sure, this is all antecdotal, but I'm sure every one of you has stories like this. Its not just recreation, its not just badges or ranks, you (and collectively, we) are making an actual difference just by taking an interest in these kids lives.

Alright, this is definately doable, possibly without alteration to the requirement at all. At most, I'd think that the only change would be to maybe substitute the side stroke for a resting stroke. A big thank you to everyone.

Thanks OldGreyEagle. I have my contact at council for that committee who walked me through the various steps of getting alternate requirements approved (he is my favorite person at either district or council level, and he goes above and beyond the call of duty to help out). I haven't had to use the process yet, as the Scout made it through all of the Tenderfoot requirements without needing any alternate requirements, a big boost to his self-esteem (his real self-esteem, not the fake "feel-good" type). My issue is that I'm not sure what an appropriate alternate requirement would be if he can't manage the swimming. While it would be too much to hope for a physical therapist to lurk here, I'm hoping someone who may have dealt with similar issues might have suggestions for alternates, or even alternates that their troop has used. Scoutnut ~ That's an idea. I work in a school, so I can ask the occupational therapist if she knows of any places next time I see her.

Appreciate any help or suggestions I can get here. Background: I have a Scout who, due to a problem during very early childhood, is physically unable to use his right arm as more than an anchor (no grip with his fingers at all), and whose right leg also has control issues. These are both permanent conditions. The boy has been a Scout for a year and a half now and is slowly being allowed to take part in more activities (his parents are really, really protective of him). Not being allowed to participate has held him back more than any physical problems, and he made Tenderfoot just last night. Despite his issues (on top of his physical problems, he reads on only a 1st grade level and has some memory problems, although when he's with his friends you'd never know he had any mental issues), this kid is a beast. While he certainly did not like moving slower than his friends or taking more time than he friends, he earned Tenderfoot without needing a single alternate requirement. We're talking struggles with one armed pushups and pull-ups and working out how to do two half hitches and the taut-line hitch one handed despite being unable to tie his own shoes (try doing it one handed sometime, its really hard). Looking ahead to 2nd and 1st Class and taking what I've seen of the kid, my only major concerns are the swim tests. I had a meeting with the Scout and his mom at the end of the meeting, and he has never had any sort of formal swim lessons. Why would he? "Normal" strokes wouldn't work for him, he can't cup his hand or rotate his right arm to propel himself, and his right leg would have issues with the kicking motions. Despite this, the kid is all about trying to swim. This is where I could use the help. No where in there do I see where it says any specific stroke needs to be used while swimming. You could doggie paddle and complete the requirement as stated. Does anyone see anything different there? Would we have to apply for an alternate requirement? This one is a bit trickier, we can try to teach one of these strokes (side stroke?). What about a resting backstroke? I would think that he'd end up going in circles. Any ideas on how to complete this requirement? Any ideas for potential alternate requirements that we could come up with? Also, time to get one of my older Scouts to learn the one handed bowline so that they can teach it for 1st Class... Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.

In my day in my troop ("the 90s"), almost everyone used tin foil meals for that requirement. All three of my current patrols have passed what we ever did, mastering the art of using a grilling grate to cook steak and chicken. Patrols in the past have also neglected to bring any propane (whoops) and had to make pasta over an open fire, which is a real pain in the butt, but they did it. I also think the emphasis on individual fire cooking has died down with the rise of "Leave No Trace".

I second this site: http://www.vftroop73.org/ We've camped there a few times. The most recent time (last April) someone had to fly an emergency chopper in during the middle of the night. The siren went off at the fire station and I think every kid in the troop hit the roof of their tent. Another great activity out that way is taking the Valley Forge Rail Trail, part of the larger Schuylkill River Trail (http://www.schuylkillriver.org/biking.aspx). If you can get dropped off in Philadelphia at the art museum, you can bike down Kelly Drive, down to the Manyunk Canal Towpath, then follow the trail right into the National Park. I realized last time we did this that it might even be possible to bike all the way to the Troop 73 camping area, which would be in the area of a 25 mile bike.

Thanks for the heads up, $10 seems quite reasonable. We'll have to submit a form. We didn't submit our tour permit yet (waiting for First Aid re-training for the tour leader), but we do have our camping reservation at King's Dominion Campground (owned by the amusement park). They are offering a "discount" to troops doing day trips to the Jamboree, as well as a discount to Jamboree troops who want to go to an amusement park.

Thanks. I know that at the last one a) walk-ins just walked in and b) walk-ins could attend the arena show. No one seems to know what is going on for this one, and the website is pretty vague.

Due to the steep cost of Jamboree, only a few of my Scouts were able to sign up to go (the promised fundraising never really got off the ground, and local was asking for $1500 per Scout, the $800 fee for national and $700 "for everything else", which must include gold tent stakes and filet for every meal since we are only a six hour or so drive from Jamboree). Because this only happens once, the troop has planned a day trip to Jamboree. We've got our (nearby)campground reserved and our transportation ducks in a row. This is what I don't know (and the website is unclear) - do you register to attend as a day visitor, or do you just show up? Do visitors have to register to attend the arena show (the website DOES state that vistor hours are extended that day, so I know visitors are allowed to attend)? Are there any costs we pay to get in as visitors or attend the arena show? If anyone can answer these questions, it would be much appreciated! No one around here seems to know or know who we could ask...

Seriously, that must have been a heck of a scanning job to take four months...

I second the April 1 date, got an e-mail about through Del-Mar-Va Council. The rate its going, this could be National's little April Fools joke.

Its a crapshoot. We've had some awesome Den Chiefs and some terrible ones. For a while the role of Den Chief in my troop was being used for the Eagle leadership requirements for a leadership role (perfectly acceptable) in place of ever doing anything with the troop (not acceptable). Unfortunately, I wasn't in much of a position to do anything about it at the time, as the Scoutmaster was happy to sign off on everything.