Jeffrey H

Talk with your Den Leader. The DL is the one who has to lead the Den week after week, not the Pack Committee. Good Luck. Schedules can be changed. The Pack Committee should be flexible on this if they want to keep their Den Leaders. By the way, my Den meets on Sunday evenings from 6:30 to 7:45.

"The purposes of BSA & GSUSA that you quoted are both a bit dated. The one for GSUSA more so. Today you will not see any references to "purity" & "obedience"." Yes, the "purposes" are dated by those that are easily influenced by popular culture. In my district of the BSA, some GSUSA leaders tend to look upon the BSA with a little envy. One GS leader commented to me about some of the qualities of the BSA that she wished were a part of the GSUSA: --the timeless uniform --the oath and law --traditions --Eagle Rank In short, she appreciated the traditions and values that the BSA does not waver on. She tires of the constant changes in the GSUSA.

starwolfmom, Yea, Cub Scouts is fun! No doubt about that! However, make sure you and your husband are of one mind with your decision. Keep a balance between being a Scouter and your commitment to your husband and family. Your husband is obviously concerned and I would show him how you are going to keep things in "balance". Since you now "know the ropes", I would assume that includes knowing how to delegate your responsibilities. Make sure you do that and you will have more fun and so will the other Pack leaders.

In our Pack, the boys go to the Khaki shirts as soon as they crossover to the Webelos Den. Families in our Pack are well aware of this way in advance with their blessings. Yes, it is utimately a family decision, but it can also be a Pack tradition as well.

ndnqueen, Read Guide to Safe Scouting under Camping. An online version can be read at www.scouting.org or get a copy from your Cubmaster. Your questions about Cub camping will be answered. From what you stated, it appears there were no violations at your Pack Campout. No offense intended, but after 7 years (as you stated) you should be familiar with camping rules for Cubs as stated in the Guide to Safe Scouting. In Scouting, it's very easy for made-up rules to spread around because of tradition and no one questions it. --Jeff

I have zero knots. But...I will likely receive two Cub Leader awards during the coming year. Will I wear them? Sure.

Cursing should not be tolerated. Demand that Troop Leadership make immediate changes (and attitudes) or go find another Troop. Cursing will happen on occassion, but habitual "potty mouths" should not be tolerated. This does not belong in the Boy Scouts for obvious reasons.

"WHy wouldn't they wear them? Why wouldn't you encourage them to wear them?" I would not encourage them to wear so many because I think the Scout uniform looks best with a minimum of badges and decoration. However, we can't stop adults from wearing 7 or 8 rows of knots if that makes them feel important in the Scouting program. As I stated earlier, 3 to 6 knots is a good number. Wear the knots that have the most importance and put the others away in your scouting scrap book. As Gonzo stated, it's a matter of taste.

7 or 8 rows??? Yea, I've seen those and they look like "cheap generals". I know it's legal, but I think a limit of 3 to 6 knots is enough. If you earn more than 6, only put the ones on your uniform that are the most important to you. Put the others in a memory book or on your other uniform shirt. I agree with the others, if you earn a knot it goes on any uniform.

...."However, once they dropped the mandatory to it and allowed Webelos leaders to take their boys out into the woods without sufficient training, I jumped ship....." I agree. It does not make any sense. "...Without trained adults, there should be no program, because the quality of program thrown together by untrained people is not doing a service to the boys...." I do not agree. The quality of the program REALLY depends on the commitment and enthusiasm of the leader. Basic training is important and should be taken, but you cannot shut down a program because an adult was unable to attend a training course that's only given twice a year.

"We currently have 4-5 Baloo trained leaders, but most of us leave next year.....Our pack requires at least 2 Baloo trained people,..." Since your leadership succession is uncertain, I recommend you lighten your requirement to 1 Baloo trained person if your Pack wants to continue camping. National requires only 1 person.

I bought a second scout shirt for $3 a Thrift Store. Yes, $3 and it was in very good condition. Yes, it's a matter priorities and sport uniforms usually take precendence over Scout uniforms because the boys were involved before Scouting. Provide a uniform closet for truly needy Scouts. Don't give it to them right away. Require them to show commitment and be active before you give them the "free" shirt. We made the mistake of giving away shirts to boys who quit Scouts withing a few weeks.

Third, just because your pack isn't doing things doesn't mean your Den can't. Ditto! Thats the best advice given on this discussion. Your den can be the catalyst to get your Pack back on the move again. Remember, as Lisabob stated (and I agree), a Pack is only as strong as its Dens. If the Dens are not doing anything, you will lose boys and there will be no need for a Pack Committee or a Cubmaster. I encourage to be a Den Leader or Assistant DL and be directly involved with your Den and keep it active and fun.

"At registration, the person working with the Tigers told us "You don't really have to meet or anything. The boys just want to go to camp in the summer so you could meet once a month or something." I insisted on twice a month, we picked a day, someone volunteered to be the leader and we were off and running. Of course, our leader never showed up at a den meeting. Ever. In January he told us he (and his son) were quitting. We had 4 other boys quit - 2 due to schedules. " Your Pack is giving out extermely bad advice and is destined to fail. Who would want to be a part of an organization that never meets?? I appreciate your enthusiam, but you need to meet more than 2 times per month. Your den should be meeting together a minimum of 3 times per month and you can do this as a combination of den meetings and outings. I recommend that you meet 4 times per month - 3 times as a Den and once with the Pack at the Pack Meeting. Use the Cub Scout program helps, go to basic leader training, and attend Roundtables. Enthusiam is contagious and it will (eventually) cause your core group of leaders to grow. Believe me, I've seen it happen in my Pack.

Interestingly enough, and I don't agree with it, but we have one troop in our District that actually added the requirement you speak of for advancement - i.e., no one in their troop advances to the next rank (any rank) unless they have 60% attendance for outings and meetings for the 12 months preceding their request for a SM conference and BOR for rank. Its my understanding that no one is allowed to add or take away from the requirements listed in the Handbook. It does not matter if we do not like the current requirements; its a matter of principle. Becoming an eagle in one unit should not be any harder or easier than becoming one in another unit. Can this troop continue doing this or does your District just ignore them?

Its like being caught between a rock and a hard place. We dont recruit existing Cubs but we also do not turn away Cubs that come to us from other Packs. The ones that we pick up tend to be from very small Dens of 2 or from Packs that do not do anything to speak of. If we refuse these boys, we could lose them for good in Scouting. So what we do? We go ahead and take them and then get a visit from the DE because his evaluation is not going to look so good. We dont need that. Whats interesting about our Pack is that we are not doing anything above the ordinary. We are simply delivering an active basic program that includes regular Den meetings, Pack meetings, occasional outings, a summertime program, and a couple of campouts a year. Oh yes, and the traditional pinewood derby. I could have posted this in the CUB FORUM, but since we are having issues with our DE professional, I thought that this would better place.

packsaddle, No one has told me the "dirty little secret". You better tell me now so this happy-go-lucky Cub Leader doesn't destabilize the system. I have to say your remarks about the BSA are the most negative I have ever seen on this forum. Your opinion is yours, but it lost it's credibility when you began comparing the internal issues of the BSA with racism and the civil rights movement.

"How would dropping the DRP effect the program? Would it make religion any less of a component? Would it effect your enjoyment of scouting?" It dont believe it would affect the program or my enjoyment of it. However, in the meantime, the DRP is still on the application. If you are a BSA member, you agreed to the DRP when you signed your application. If you dont agree with the DRP, then you should not sign the application.

BSA does itself a disservice forcing the DRP on membership, especially since religion is not a core component to the program, IMHO. They should drop the DRP, but retain everything else. GernBlasten, The BSA forces no one to become a member or stay a member. If any adult has a serious disagreement with the DRP (Declaration of Religious Principle), then they should not complete a BSA membership application. Adult leaders and scouts agree to the DRP when they apply for membership. My grandfather and father served as scouts and scoutmasters going back to 1922. Learning from their experiences, a scouts Duty to God and a scout is Reverent have always played an important role in the BSA. I agree that religion is not a core component, but it does play an important role in how a scout interprets his Duty to God and the Scout Law. Scouting has never been just a camping/outdoor program. Its a values-based program that heavily uses the outdoors and camping to teach and apply the Oath and Law. Some will view values-based as some form of religious fundamentalism. I disagree with that perception. Scouting is not for everyone and never has been. No organization can make everyone happy.

Tell us about the conversation you had with the DE regarding your recruiting practices. You were told to stop recruiting? You were told to stop recruiting existing Cub Scouts? You were blamed for the demise of another pack? He gave you suggestions for recruiting boys not already members? What did he say exactly? FScouter, Our DE has only talked with our CM and the CM talks with me frequently about issues. Im the ACM. We were not told to stop recruiting. We dont recruit existing Cub Scouts. They sometimes come to us. We were blamed for the demise of another Pack. Its a long story, but Ill brief. A year ago, our Cubmaster agreed took to be Cubmaster of another Pack so they could re-charter. He did not want to do this initially, but agreed in order to help that Pack. He agreed that he would serve only until they could find another CM or one year, whichever came first. We kept that Pack active by inviting them to our meetings, campouts, outings. Well, a year went by and no one stepped up to be CM and the Pack did not re-charter. The DE is upset because he does not see why our CM could not simply continue being CM for their Pack. He reasons that they are a small Pack and should not be any trouble. From an administrative standpoint, our CM did not want to deal with two Packs. During the past year, our DE suggested that we transfer some of our scouts to the struggling Pack to beef up their roster. This of course helps his number of precious units. Our CM and CC did not comply with his request.

There are some here that claim the BSA is controlled by religious fundamentalists. Thats a strange and interesting observation. If this assessment true, then why does the BSA allow religious diversity among its members? A Fundamentalist is generally defined and understood as someone who is intolerant to other belief systems and does not allow for diversity. I have never seen this in the BSA as a youth in the 70s and as leader today. Further, Im a part of a unit that is chartered by a conservative Baptist church and most of our boys are not members of the church. I do realize that some use the term fundamentalists loosely and carelessly to define people who fall into these categories: Those who are faithful and regular about their religious duties. Those who attend worship every Sunday or Saturday. Those who actually pray to the God they say they believe in. Those who are actually trying to perform their duty to God. You get my drift. Well, these are not fair and correct definitions of fundamentalism. Its time to lighten up folks and have a good time as a Scout. I am.

I understand what Barry is saying and I agree with him. What we consider "moral" is largely based upon our religious beliefs. Our religious beliefs often interpret the Scout Oath and Law. The Oath and Law are not just words on paper but reminders of how we should apply our religious beliefs. You can have "no religion" and be in the BSA, but you still make a promise to obey the Scout Oath & Law. Regardless of our own personal beliefs and moral codes, the BSA does define what is moral and acceptable. Read Youth Protection Guidelines. Those guidelines are there because bad things have been done by leaders who were practicing their own personal moral code. Fortunately, they have been kicked out of the BSA or they are in JAIL.

Baden-Powell was a great man, but none of his writings, including his personal thoughts about God and religion, were infallible. The BSA or any other scouting organizations in the world have no obligation to be Baden-Powell purists. We can learn from the best of his teachings, but we are unwise to think that all that he taught should be canonized. The BSA promotes each scout to practice his religion in order to for him to interpret his duty to God. I have no problem with that and I believe its a good policy. What bothers me is when an OA member begins praying to the Great Scout Spirit or Great Spirit and Im supposed to accept that as my personal belief? Not. This is good example of the BSA promoting a religion I do not practice. In this scenario, their non-sectarian policy falls on its face. I have high respect for Native Americans and their religions, but I dont accept their religious views as my own. I believe in God, but the problem is religion and things gets real messy when we try to blend different religions together in order not to offend anyone, but usually everyone gets offended anyway. KUDU states: This would be easier to understand if the BSA used Baden-Powell's Uniform design. On a B-P Uniform, the badges that represent a Scout's Service to Others ("Practical Christianity") such as "First Aid" are worn on the left sleeve of the Uniform, and the badges that represent a Scout's mastery of Scoutcraft ("The Religion of the Woods") such as "Cooking" and "Camping" are worn on the right sleeve of the Uniform. Im glad the BSA never adopted this for two reasons: #1 Too many patches and too much decoration. #2 - Those of us living in the southern US usually avoid long-sleeve shirts.

"The only truly obnoxious uniform item in terms of cost is the Venturing pants and shorts..." I fully agree.

Our Pack usually schedules one event a month during the summer. We always schedule Cub Day Camp in June which is a 5-day event in our District. Other things to consider: 1) Baseball Game 2) Swim Party & Picnic 3) Day Hike & Picnic 4) Overnight Campout 5) Zoo or Museums 6) A Service Project in your community