Jeffrey H

"They routinely send 10-15 adults to summer camp (and about 25-30 boys). The Venture Patrol usually has a 1:1 or sometimes more than 1:1 ratio of adults: boys. Mind you, nearly all of these adults are registered as either ASMs or committee members, so it isn't a case of just "stray parents." This doesn't stop these registered adults from butting in to the scouts' territory, though. In fact it appears to give them license. One result is that the committee sometimes acts as though THEY have more ownership of the troop, than the boys do." Fortunately these are problems that my troop does not have to deal with: Too many adults and babysitting the scouts. This sounds more like family camps than it does a functioning Scout Troop. How is your troop addressing it?

Encourage parent participation on campouts, but also encourage parents to register with the Troop as committee members if they want to continue attending most campouts. Parent participation develops leadership for the Troop. Trained and registered parents provide coverage for outings and campouts if the SM or an ASM is unable to attend. The risk of canceling campouts is reduced when you have sufficient leadership depth that provides more than the minimum required 2-deep leadership. Lay down the Troop ground rules for campouts: 1) Parents camp in their own area away from the boys, 2) Stay out of the Patrol campsites unless there is an emergency or youre teaching a class, 3) Do not hover over the boys and let them make mistakes and learn from them. Very few adults enjoy doing a lot of rustic camping month after month and only the ones that are truly committed to the program will hang in there. The crowded conditions on the early campouts will usually work themselves out after a few months.

A Venturing Scout Only? You plan ahead and talk with a representative of the review board and let them know you will not be appearing in a traditional Boy Scout uniform. No surprises = No re-scheduling.

I would advise any Eagle candidate to take into consideration of what is expected as the "dress code" for an EBOR. Play it safe and put on your full BSA Boy Scout uniform since the Eagle Rank is a rank of Boy Scouts and not Venturing. By doing this, you will avoid any negative first impressions or misunderstandings. An EBOR is made up of volunteers that may not be trained on every specific detail of policy. You want to avoid reschuding an EBOR because the board did not like the way you were dressed.

Our Troop charges $48 per quarter for dues and this takes care of awards, re-charter, and boy's life magazine. Additional fees are collected for each campout or activity. We have one significant fundraiser each year that gives the Scouts an opportunity to signifcantly reduce their cost. Each Scout gets to keep 2/3 of their sales proceeds with a credit to their Scout Account. They can use their credit balance toward future campouts, outing, dues, etc. A determined Scout can easily have more than a $200 credit balance in his account. To answer your question, our Dues serve as the "maintenance fee" to fund Troop operations. Our fundraisers offer the opportunity for the boys to offset costs.

I would not be surpised if the Troop in question is considered of the best Troops in their District or Council regardless of their "no women allowed at Troop campsites after dark" policy. We are assuming that they don't like women, but that's not a fair statement. The Charter Organization has a reason for this policy and they are within the bounds of their BSA Charter to make this decision. I'm thankful for this because the automony that this Troop practices under their BSA Charter is the same automony that all BSA Troops enjoy. The person in question simply needs to find another Troop that approves women on campouts and there are many of them, even in the South. I hope she does not do it to the detriment of her son's experience in Scouting. In other words, pick a Troop that's best for your son not for yourself.

There are three types of folks that attend Roundtable in my District 1) New unit leaders that are looking for some direction and assistance with their program. 2) District committee members and roundtable committee members that are obligated to attend or feel obligated. 3) Those that missed University of Scouting or Pow Wow and need the roundtable attendance for their leader award knot. Veteran unit leaders that had a few years experience usually did not attend. I stopped attending roundtables because the supplemental training that they were supposed to deliver would be canceled or it was poorly prepared and executed. Instead, we received announcements of events that many of us were already aware and had already planned for. The moral: If anyone waited for Roundtable about upcoming events, you were already late or had little time to plan the event with your unit. I can think of a couple of good meetings that were helpful for new Cub Leaders, but for the most part it was a waste of time.

The parents of Webelos do not have to attend Webelos Den camping, but you should have their permission slips and medical forms. You and the other leaders will be the designated "responsible" adults for any Webelo that does not have a parent/guardian with him. Two-deep leadership and Youth Protection applies, but I highly recommend that you do more than two adults and invite as many moms or dads that enjoy camping to come along with you. Good attendance and "active" are defined by your Pack. Set a reasonable attendance figure and expectation and put it into your Pack policy. In my opnion, any scout that cannot attend more than 50% of Den meetings and activities would be a concern. That said, I'm not sure if I answered any of your questions if there were any.

Not to change the subject, but getting back to the original question -- I attended IOLS this weekend and had a very good experience with some experieced instructors. While I enjoy the benefits of online instruction, the IOLS course is one that you cannot duplicate or attempt online. The outdoors is the "classroom" for IOLS and requires hands-on instruction.

I'm all for Leader-Specific training online training with a test at the end of the course. The pass rate can be set at 90%. Set the pass rate high to ensure the candidate understands the material. Test attempts are unlimited. When you pass, you can print out your completion certificate. I have found that adults are more informed and get the basic training they need when you offer it online.

In our Troop, Mothers are allowed to go on campouts. However, we do require that parents that want to go on campouts be registered as committee members and have taken YPT. We never have any problems with this.

For weekend campouts, we have a sign-up and money cut-off usually a week prior to camp, sometimes two weeks. If scouts miss the cut-off, they cannot attend the camp. If a Scout who has signed-up has to drop out from attending camp, he is not refunded any money until the Troop returns from camp. Any unused funds from the camping trip are equally divided among the scouts and credited to their scout accounts. Full refunds are rare and are never expected.

I will be attending and IOLS training course in a couple of weeks. The course was changed from a Saturday/Sunday schedule to Friday/Saturday. The reason? We will have a large group of LDS scout leaders participating including one of the Instructors and they want to be back home for Sunday. I'm glad they made that request, because I will enjoy being back home on Sunday with my family in my home church.

Lou, I agree with your position. This is not a scouting event, just a bunch of friends getting together, therefore no credit should be given for nights to the scouts. I have nothing against an occassional "family" campout because it's a great way to grow closer as a Scouting family, but even those events should include a Tour Permit and the scouts should still follow regular camping protocol (i.e., patrol method).

Our OA Lodge flap is kinda' ugly, but I wear it anyway. I don't look for alternates, because I want to wear the offical lodge flap. When it comes to design and taste for some of lodge flaps I've seen, a little KIS would be in order - "Keep It Simple".

We have a big mantra in our Troop. "Your schoolwork and grades come first, Scouting second". Our troop leaders cut alot of slack when homework and schoolwork come into the picture. Yes, scouts have a responsibility to their patrol and troop, but we make the needed adjustments if a Scout has to stay home to finish an assignment. We encourage them to let us know as early as possible.

It may depend on the requirement of the summer camp you are attending. Our Troop was told that our summer camp will only accept pre-test results signed-off by a BSA certified individual. Contact the camp director at your summer camp facility and get the final word from them. Worse case scenario? You will have to take the swim test when you arrive at camp. Not a big deal.

In my Troop, our Scout's Own services are non-denominational Christian in content. We do not do inter-faith services because there is not that need in our Troop. The Scouts and Adults with our Troop are professing Christians (Protestant and Catholic) or they identify with Christianity. We encourage attendance, but never force anyone to attend and maintain the upmost respect for their decision. However, most Scouts and Scouters attend and they appreciate taking time out to practice the 12th point of the Scout Law. I avoid inter-faith services (interfaith = combining different religions) because they do not allow me to worship God as my conscience dictates. I appreciate it when others do not force me to attend those type of services. Likewise, I don't force anyone to attend Christian services.

In reference to poor turnout to Eagle Service Projects, make sure your Eagle candidate plans ahead, determines the number of helpers he needs and contacts his helpers directly by phone or face-to-face. While a big turnout can be encouraging, you can have too many Scouts/Helpers on sight and they actually hinder the process rather than help it. We have an Eagle candidate that announced to all of our Scouts, by e-mail, to come out and help him with his Eagle project 3 days before the date. Sorry, that type of planning will not fly.

Interesting disussion. Both Woodbadge and the Order of the Arrow are NOT secret societies and all Scouts and Scouters should feel free to share their experiences with anyone. Secret societies are not allowed in the Boy Scouts of America. All activities are open to public observation and inquiry. I'm a Brotherhood member of the OA and I will not hesitate to share with anyone who asks me about my Brotherhood ordeal. OA members like to pretend there are "secrets" they are forbidden to share, but that's a bunch of bologna. It seems strange to me that there would be a "safeguarded" discussion board for the Order of the Arrow. If you have something private to share with another, just take it offline. (This message has been edited by Jeffrey H)

"The Troop leaders had nearly all attended WB. So training was not the reason..." That's a very discouraging and surprising observation. A Troop with WB trained adults and they let the troop fail. What's the point in having WB trained adults if they are not going to have any impact on the program or keeping a Troop from failing. If the Scoutmaster was WB trained, then he should have known better and should have been placed in check by the other so-called WB trained adults. I expect more from a WB trained adult leadership. In my Troop, none of our adult leaders are WB trained including the SM, but we run the Troop using the patrol method, it's boy run, we're thriving and having a great time. We run the Troop according to BSA guidelines and the Scoutmaster's Handbook. We've taken basic leader training and supplementary training (Univerity of Scouting), but none of us has had an opportunity or time to attend WB.

Our Troop does not have a formal selection process for ASM's. I became an ASM because I requested the position, the Scoutmaster knew me and did not have any objections, and the troop committe approved my request. Most adults that register with our Troop usually begin on the troop committee unless thy make a specific request to serve as an ASM. Our ASM's must be ready and willing to attend as many outings/campouts as possible including availability to provide transportation. That said, we have committee folks that enjoy camping as much as the ASM's and always willing to assist. We have lots of friendly cooperation, no one is "power hungry", and I'm blessed to be a part of it. Our ASM's usually have specific assignments that the SM delegates to them. One is a "Trail to First Class" advisor, another advises Life to Eagle candidates, etc. What do I do? I just do what I'm told by the SM It varies with every outing and campout.

I agree with desertrat77. Wearing patches that are earned is part of an honor system. Scouts shops may do a good job to restrict items, but sometimes badges and knots get released by mistake. If a dishonest person wants to impress others by the badges and knots he is wearing and did not earn, he will be eventually be found out. I've seen leaders wear the "Trained" patch when I knew full well they had not completed all requirements for their Boy Scout adult leader position. This happens when they go from Cub Scout Leader to Boy Scout Leader. They remove their former CS position patch, but they never take off their Trained patch. When I crossed over to Boy Scouts as an ASM, I had one of these adults ask when I was going to get "Trained" because I was not wearing the patch. I told him I was only "Trained" as Cub Scout Leader, but not yet as Boy Scout Leader as I was still waiting to take IOLS course. He looked at me funny and said, "Oh, you have to do that?"

Scoutclaude, I agree with you. When in doubt, fill out a tour permit. You can never be punished by your council for filling out too many. At the Cub Scout level, we always filled one out whenever the Pack went on a campout or the Webelos went on a campout. We did not fill one out if our Den was going on in-town "day trip". Again, if any doubt, fill one out. Tour permits are easy to fill out and don't get frustrated if you can't fill out every last detail on the form. Just turn it in or mail it in and be done with it. Our Troop is concientious about vehicle information, but we have had several instances where an extra vehicle was needed for the campout and that information never made it on the Tour Permit because it was already turned in to the Council. A good rule of thumb here is to put all available vehicle information on the form because changes can occur at the last minute. If you are late turning it in, don't worry, at least your Council has a record your outing or campout. Our Troop has never cancelled a campout because we were still waiting to obtain "approval" from the Council. Permit or No Permit, BSA insurance will cover all registered Scouts and Scouters. You may get your hand slapped for not filing a Tour Permit, but that will not prevent BSA insurance coverage. Some may argure with me on this point, but that is the counsel I received from my Council and District Executive.

I registered to this forum just to ask you this: Why don't you let atheists be scouts? Yann, The BSA is a private organization and the collective membership believes that a belief in God is required for membership. The BSA is non-secterian and does not define how that belief should be expressed. The BSA is a product of our country's religious liberty and teaches members to be respectful of all religions or different faiths. I think you know the rest of the answer since it seems you have read some BSA literature. If you have not read it, go to Scouting.org and find out.