jbroganjr

The ones that look chaotic, are loud and full of energy...where adults feel the hair fallingout of their heads....and the kids accomplish not just one thing, but all there goals, in there own fashion.... With adults only there for guidance, safety etc....where all the boys participated, worked out there own problems amongst themselves, etc. ...A reverse lord of the flies sort of thing, you know positive, fun. Of course these outings/meetings hopefully where planned by the plc and the plans reviewed by a competent, trained adult.

I believe this information is correct as to the leadership positions of the Key Three of a District (District Chairman, District Commissioner and District Executive). The D.E. stays constant, as they are the professional advisor, (that may be were that statement that the D.E. picked teh D.C.) BUT the Chairman and the Commissioner are elected, together (on the same slate) by the district members (also called members at large and Training folk, FOS, membership, etc.) I don't know if commissioners vote, as our district runs great and we have not had this turmoil during my tenure as a RT commish and as such, I do not go to the "election/nominating meetings, as they are at the end of the year and a I like to steal back every hour a week I can. This is normally done in June/July so that the "new" leadership can plan the next year. There is always a person in charge of the nomination committee, and that person will call the election meeting to order, announce the results and hand over to the district chairman. Changing the slate, while not impossible, can be difficult, as the D.E. HAS to rely on the D.C and Chairman for the district to work. To effect change, you will have to be involved on the district level (you already have a year, as RT commishes have to be reg. on the district roster, though you don't have the job, you are on that roster (charter), only now you are a "member at large". Please note that council and district are different, though the jobs are very similar, the responsibilities are different. I encourage you to keep up the work and work the program. The program, separate, RT, endorsed, encouraged by Philmont, National publications and the training you received all serve to help the cub scouter, to ensure a fun (Sounds like your district forgot that scouting is fun...with a purpose) which brings numbers 9scouts) to district events as well as council events. Good luck JBrogan,Jr

you may have to wait for the charter if you don't have the scouts, but you do not have to wait to start visiting cub packs. Taking the time to visit shows you care, your troop cares and this goes a long way with cub parents. Don't be surprised if you get some scouts from your old troop, once the word is out, from the sounds of your old thread, I would guess that now that you are gone, the SM will turn his attention on some other poor family. I hope you didn't burn too many bridges, as those kids will need someplace to go.

Just a few things. They will tell you at their own time whether your unit is accepted or not and it comes by letter. If you are accepted, the brisk 3 mile hike ,more like 5. Kids loved it. Carpool, Carpool Carpool. Only one vehicle will be allowed close to your site. 25' x 25' is teh max area for your unit. I'd suggest setting up a practice run on that. It is tight quarters. Bring stuff to trade! It is impressive, normally wet and muddy. Oh and USMA does not mean Marines!!!

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER give out yours or your kids SSN. With it, it is so, so easy to recreate your identity and destroy your credit rating. I have been a victim of this, and unfortunately, am not alone. I could care less and if I had to put one down for bsa, i would be tempted to be decietful and put in a bogus one, even knowing that is not right, but the pain of continuously resolving this personal conflict of i.d. theft will never go away and I wouldn't wish it on anyone

You are the RT commish, it is your job to mediate the round table. You are responsible for the program content of the RT, much like the CM is responsible for planning pack night. No Songs???? No wonder the RT's are no fun. You have been commanded to run a no fun program. Stand up. Get a copy of the Cub Scout Round Table Guide if you do not have it. Every month is a song! A ceremony! A game. RT without songs or games is not round table. I include this on the boy scout side too! at least a song! Start with a song that is not so silly (read fun here), like Your a Grand Old Flag or God bless America. You have introduced a song, made it part of the agenda. Follow that agenda every month and add to it. Unfortunately, Rome wasn't built in a day. My question to you, is your district suffering from the "younger boy problem" (cub scouts?) Well if the unit leaders do not want to have fun, come away from a RT with something to take back to their pack (ceremony, skit, song etc.) then the district might as well fold up the program entirely, because what you are experiencing is just the tip of the iceberg. If it is the D.E. or D.C who doesn't like songs, then tell them to stand int he back of the room and pretend to hum along. RT is training, darn it and in the cub program, fun things are training. beside this is a program centered around the boys and these fun things are there for them. You still have the right, if you find the resources, to hold RT on a different night. It is your ace in the hole. NO matter how many times the key three tell you how inconvienant it is for them, tough, YOU are responsible for planning RT program. Try to do this in the "catch more flies with sugar than vinegar" There ace in the hole is to get a new RT commish. Thanks J. Brogan, Jr. CSRT - HAD

I wonder if this is a case of you being a new CSRT commish and everyone else being helpful.... That being said, I have no problem with a short joint session (20 minutes is normally enough, including the opening ceremony). Covering district topics etc. You are commissioned to present a cub round table. You will not be doing your job if you do not have a separate meeting. Now if the argument is that the information is for both, then you are being fed hogwash. One, how many cub scouters will care or return to hear about merit badge issues, eagle issues, patrol method, etc. and how many boy scouters will want to go over ceremonies, Tiger program, silly songs, games, Blue and Gold or PWD???? See they are two separate programs. Now the folks to talk to are as follows: District Commissioner, then the District Chairman and then the District Exec. if needed. If feasible, have a separate meeting area on the same night and at the same place. Explain to them the following: One, cubs and boy scouts are different programs. (see examples above) Two, in order for scouters to return, it is the district and your responsibility not to waste their time (see examples above) or yours. If a dual night arrangement is not feasible because of physical location, you are going to have to do the leg work to set up a different night or location and this will make more work for the key three, as you have now added another night. Yes I have seen this arrangement in our council because of physical limitations. It does not last longer than a year, as most people do not want another meeting to go to. If you arrange the same night, dual facilities, here is a suggestion that we had to use at our RT when my co commish and I took over. Take command here, bring a stop watch with you. If you have made the arrangements, announce them (as a news brief, unless you like hearing that song over and over again, which in this case might actually be helpful, so use announcment) that you will break at xx time and cubs will gather at xx area for their RT.) Talk to the boy scout RT commish, tell him your plan, show him your agenda. Use the stop watch if you notice that the joint session is getting carried away. Just bring it up to the front of the room and hand it to either the long winded speaker, (an occaisional hazard in scouting ;-} ) or the Boy scout RT commish. Step in at the next break, and in your most positive, pleasant voice, announce. OOOPs, we are running over schedule hear, could the cub scouters in the room please use this break to get up and follow me to the cub round table. Rude, yes, effective yes. We had to use this as a last ditch effort after wasting, I mean wasting, 3 meetings of the year. But, the scouters who come to RT have given up another precious night of their time, and we were not going to be guilty of wasting their time. BTW, we have agreat relationship with all involved on thedistrict level. We let everyone know that we were going to pull that stunt (yes, it was set up as a walk on, just a very serious one). Good Luck and separate.

My wife and I where able to get the pack to go along with this idea. We would ask the community liason (school nurse) for needy families at the Holiday times. We would give each den a shopping list or the option of donating money and the pack committee would do shopping for the families. We based number of families on willing participants. We never know who the stuff is going too, as they are identified by number (also not the type of person who wants that knowledge) Now for the troop, I was able to talk the boys into caroling at the homes of people who where sick or infirmed. the idea came to me and I shared it with the boys when one scouts mom had terminal cancer. We never went to their house, as they did not want us to, but the boys decided to go ahead anyhow, contacting local priest, ministers, etc and we had a great go round to about 10 houses. Why we where outstanding, earning a bucket, because we couldn't even carry a tune in a bucket ;-}

sctmom Just wanted you to know that your suggestions are now going to be a handout at the RT I run for Sept. Meetings. Outstanding Jbroganjr

Oh you are so right grasshopper, I forgot fellowship. One of the biggest helps of my scouting career.

OGE I have read the article and while it has very valid points and suggestions, the part about the SM sticking with an angry young man is rather skimpy on the details. Substitute knife for stick and is the SM going to work with this lad? I really believe that 99.9% of scouters are here to work with kids, and that most of us go that extra couple of miles with problem kids. How many time have we heard "this boy really needs scouting" I think we do the best we can and that the article serves to reinforce the attitude that scouters go the extra mile. It is important that we never view ourselves as professional therapists nor saviours, rather people who donate a lot of time and energy for a program that promotes good. In fact it is the good of the program, more than leadership quality in youth that keep me involved. But, I do believe there are just Bad youth, thank God, not many in the world, but they are there. Examples, the kid in CA who was sentenced to 50 yrs for shooting up his school, Columbine, the list goes on and on. They are bad kids. Sure we could explain it away that they are victims, from bad homes or kids not able to deal with anger, but I don't buy those arguments for the evil those kids wrought. And by excusing or explaining those horrible deeds away because of misguided emotions, we will end up with anarchy. Promotion of duty to country, and citizenship in the scout program serves to keep that anarchy at bay. As adult leaders, we look to the health of the troop over the needs of one boy at times (Again Thankfully, I think these are rare occasions) and when a kid has to go, I believe most avenues have been tried to address a boys/families behavior and the end result is unacceptable behavior that will only hurt or destroy a unit. It is these thoughts that led me to say that the Toad killer should be removed from scouting. Not based on that one incident, but the culmination of his behavior and that of his mother. And if that lad was in my troop, I still would have him removed and quite possibly, the leaders of the troop would be more aggrieved at the decision than the boy and his family. Scouters sometimes realize the implications of losing a boy for "bad" reasons, as reinforced in training, those lost kids may now take a road to ill repute. Tx Jbroganjr (this message has not been edited by jbroganjr, all misspellings and insane advice are there to keep you thinking and on your toes)

I just wanted to pass on to new and old pack leaders, resources that are incredibly helpful in implementing and running a fun, successful program. 1. Get Trained 2. Program Helps for 02 -03 should be available at the scout shop 3. Pow Wow Books (online you can find them at www.macscouter.com and to toot my own horn www.cnjcpowwow.org.) Your council or a neighboring council should have available information on their own pow wows. 4. Round Table - cover the theme a month a head of time. (Oct. theme will be covered in Sept.) There are normally tons of handouts at these meetings. All districts are to run a RT. If you do not know about, contact your unit commissioner, or district commissioner or district executive. 5. Online the best resource I have found is Baloo's Bugle @ www.usscouts.org I hope you find these useful. Since I am always looking for more material for the CSRT, let me know of other places to look.

As stated above, motivated scouters took the program and made it fun. It has been my experience that this does not happen as often as we like, and I hope that the new training methods help address this. Too often in the past, this area has been skimmed over in training. I also wonder, with all the "entertainment" available to kids, have they lost the ability to "boy run" a program? Just wondering. I think they kids in scouts get it, but too many parents don't and too many kids drop scouting or never join for the wrong reasons. I do believe we need to look at the webelos program again, and get input from scouters like rlculver415 and the other dynamic scouters out there for a positive input. It would also be nice if "Program Helps" went back to webelos hints!

Not looking to be so disagreeable, but... in a different thread i brought up the topic of a new scout who showed up w/ philmont hat, neckerchief, etc. which is not our troop uniform. Our troop policy was to wear an approved uniform, guidelines set by the plc (yes i did not mention that the plc approved it in my original post) . imho, Bob White's replies to that post seemed to encourage a scout to wear whatever parts of the uniform he felt fit. That may be a broad generalization of his reply, but it is the message i received from him, especially after encouraging the scout to wear this stuff in the hopes that the scout and his family go to philmont on vacation. My point being that a uniform is just that and with this thread and the other thread, we are at a point were my original contentions are true, concerning a hat and neckerchief. I am glad that this is the only "mountain" of a problem for me. (Sarcasm intended). I do believe in looking the same and having our character make us individuals.

So an official uniform is composed, as to hats and neckerchiefs, as either an official BSA hat, no hat or a troop hat. If so, my original assertation that wearing a philmont trading post hat does not constitute an official garb would be correct.

To follow up on the neckerchief issue also, if it is theplc policy to wear the troop neckerchief, then it should be followed. If we are to go the other way and wear whatever neckerchief we feel is right, then that argument means that I as a leader can have my own neckerchief one that could say "I am always right" or "I am God's gift to scouting" or how about "only I know the program and I am always right" and last but not least, my favorite "Treat me like the demagogue that I am!"

One I saw a troop at the west point invitational camporee with campaign hats and thought they looked sharp, however, campaign hats and back packs do not work well together, and the backpack normally wins by shoving the campaign hat off the wearer Two Bob, which is it? In my post on uniforms for summer camp, you went ot great lengths to tell that any scout hat is correct and now you are contradicting yourself. I was right that the official BSA hat or no hat are the correct uniform policies.

I responded to a similar post at usscouts about losing webelos. I tend to agree that we lose kids, especially from webelos to scouts. One of the reasons that I stated there, is that too many parents want to do everything for their kids, as evidenced by a lot of topics in this forum. In sports, there is the coach (even though he/she never knows enough or is doing it wrong ;-} ) in scouts, boys????? How are those parents going to deal with that??? Seriously though, I think we compete too much with sports, but, on the flip side, scouts is there for kids who don't necessarily are driven to sports. You can drop your kid off at sports and pick em up, only resposibilities are: fundraising (not a problem here in Jersey) and uniform. with scouts, we actually expect parents to be involved. One Huge problem I have with the program, especially cubs, is the dumbing down of the program to reach an even younger child. Our council ran a first nite last May to sign up Kindergardners for Tigers! The program does not change that much from Tiger to Wolf to Bear to Webelo only degree of difficulty and many find it boring in Webelos. Personally would do away with Tiger Program (let the spamming begin! Oh what a Heretic I am) so that the program was dumbed up and kids actually had something to look forward to, like boy scouts! (Or Venture!) Now being on a district committee, I have seen the numbers and they are not good, nor going in the right direction. I also think that we inudate our leaders with too much training (oh boy here comes the tar and feathers!). The training sessions have become so cookie cutter and frankly treat adults as dumb animals. This happens with a training program so large, it has to be dumbed down to the lowest common denomitor!) and training is so repititious, especially on the cub side. Baloo and Owl are basically run as the same program. While it is a good idea going to specific job training, how many nights a month are adult leaders going to give up???? maybe balance should be stressed to new leaders. Biggest turn down on adult vol. I have heard is that they don't have one more night. One other thing that I here over and over again from cub scouters in my council is the feeling that they are a "younger boy" problem, and the distance between boy and cub scouts. I think that we have a good program, one that should build on its strengths, one that goes upwards and not always reaching downward. I think the Webelos Program has to be rethought. (Boys Life and Program Helps no longer supplies hints towards rank advancement, but always has two pages for Tigers...go figure) Just my rambling .02 in obvious disarry.

Bob, Sorry about that, I assumed that most troops are boy run and the plc determines most of these things, at least our troop does, but I see from so many other posts, that this is not always the case and when assuming, there is the tendency to make an *&^ out of u and me, and I apologize for that. I does seem that Mike long, you and I are on the same page. To answer about the philmont trip, this scout has only been in scouts for 3 months, he went as a family member when his family went there for venture training.

Bob I am of the belief that a scout distinguishes himself by his character, citizenship while showing he is part of the group. The problem I have with this one scout is the way he and family are trying to come across like a super scout, better than all the rest. uniform uniforms (say that three times while eating crackers) serve to create an equal footing and allow proper rank awards, sashes, etc. to distinguish achievement. If we where to take this further, my T shirt would have a "S" on it like superman. I agree for the most part on your thoughts on this, I should have mentioned this "superiority" aspect of it in first post, but thought that would really bias my post, when I was looking for the answer you and others have given. As for the uniform policy, it is brought up every year at the PLC, more from the stand point that many parents and some kids do not want to have the uniform in the first place. I am proud of the boy leaders who have decided to keep in place the decision made 5 years ago.

bob The scouts where asking this young scout about 1. His trek 2. or did he attend national JLTC. Also, I do not think we use a heavy hand for one day of the year, going to summer camp. As mentioned, rules are different year round when it comes to hats, neck wear, etc.

Troop uniform starting with hats: 1st class and above are given a beret. Whether or not scout wears beret is up to scout, but a bsa hat is mandated. Kneckerchief Slide, (Knot is acceptable) BSA Tan shirt BSA belt BSA pants/shorts BSA socks. As for the Hats, It has not been an issue if they are different. OA sashes, where merited MB Sash, where merited. As for Summer Camp, the kneckerchief is mandated. All other times, a bolo is acceptable. Why? For the mundane purpose of having a troop photo (hats are taken off for photo, so not an issue) This is probably overboard, but has been a written troop policy for 5 years. We maintain an experienced uniform dept and have used funds to buy uniforms for folks who can't budget those items. We also have troop Tshirts The uniform policy follows the BSA guidelines. SM, ASM, CC are all required to be in full uniform, as we set the example. Now the policy is as follows. A bsa uniform is to be worn traveling to all outings, either indoor or outdoor, unless specifically changed by the PLC ahead of time (Like for clean ups, certain service projects where the uniform would be a hindrance). [Yes, we are one of those "Good Looking Troops" which I do not think is a bad thing, considering my family is one that has had to use the experienced uniform route] During the year, a "Class B" (where exactly did these misnomers come about from anyhow?) is worn to the first three meetings of the month. Uniform inspections on last meeting of the month. Also, full uniform for a scoutmasters conference, bor etc. Also Den Chiefs are to be in uniform. All Flag/Religious ceremonies at district, town, council,camp events, unless there are special circumstances. Patrols are encourage to come up with their own patrol T-shirts. We have found that traveling in uniform does a couple of things. One, recognition by other scouts, scouters, former scouters. Easy to keep track off (either on a bus, plane etc. this troop will travel far for adventure). Uniform makes all the boys "equal" in status, no "cool" or outrageous clothing.

I am wondering your views on this. Our troop policy on uniforms is to wear the full uniform on the way to outings (travel time too), etc. For summer camp, all scouts/scouters are to wear the troop neckerchief (we supply them, the are custom made, and sharp looking, paid from general troop funds). This year, I have a new scout (older brother is ASPL, father is a asm and mother is on committee) and mother is a leader at camp. I am SM at camp. Policy is stated. This new scout shows up looking like he raided the philmont trading post (father went to a course there). When the spl did a uniform inspection, the kid failed. (philmont hat, kneckerchief etc. I counseled spl that only the kneckerchief would be a problem). Mom chirps right in and says short sleeved shirts don't need a neckerchief. Had to put on my SM hat and remind her what is troo policy. I should've sent them home to get the neckerchief, didn't think of that until 1/2 hr into the trip. Any thoughts on this? I also gave the troop a quick SM minute, on the uniform showing that we are a brotherhood, a team and that it is your character that makes you stand out as an individual. At camp, it was amusing to me to see this kid not have any answer to older scouts when asked about being selected for a philmont trip. Don't think the lesson was learned.

Here's my two cents on this. As a CSRT (cub scout round table commissioner) 1. Not only you, but as many other leaders as you can get should go to RT. Your unit is not getting the info it needs. And while RT is not the forum for a **** session, asking about this in the open meeting my jolt a UC or other district member to take notice (Most hate getting involved with this stuff as it is a lose/lose situation, concerning CO, nat. BSA bylaws, etc), but the idea here is to find faces/resources for what I am about to suggest next. Things will come to a head, especially with an idiot who judges people on physical ability (Also at Round Table, look around at all those big bodies and ask yourself...These guys hike? yeah, I'm one of those big bodies too!) and lords his almighty scouting power around like little lord fontelroy and the entire cub program is going to fail anyhow. Most parents don't have time or energy to put up w/this nonsense and will find other avenues....like chartering your own cub pack. Don't think that starting up a new pack is an onerous thing, its not. Getting people to join up and be volunteers is the hard job. Money is also a hard, but not insurmountable part too. That thrifty part of the law is a neat lesson to learn anyhow! ;-} Question, how many cubs are in the pack? how many packs are in the town? Numbers of available youth in an area can greatly effect the outcome of a new unit. With lots of kids, success can be easier than with a limited amount of youth. Always be positive, don't bad mouth and never give your nemesis the amunition to use against you! Let the world see them as they are and hope you witness their come uppence, just don't hold your breath. As for awards, I was a CM for 5 years for a pack of 75 boys. It became to onerous to hand out non important ranks (like adv. towards rank, belt loops etc.) and so I trained/implemented den ceremonies for these achievements. Pack night was better spent having the boys "show off" their accomplishments rather than a long list of beads. For this trade off, I instituted Huge ceremonies for rank and important achievements, either serious or funny(never funny demeaning), always memorable. This accomplished a few things, boys and even their parents paid attention to the ceremony! Boys seemed to like showing off their accomplishments (in a positive scouting way) than getting another bead. It sounds like you are stuck with another scouter who thinks this is so much more important than it is and forgot that if it is not for the boys, its for the birds! tx. Former CM ASM CSRT commish/trainer

You know you make some great points that I had not considered with phone calls, especially the calling cards, girlfriends, etc. I should clarify that I want the scouts to tell us leaders when they are going to call home and why. I am thinking now that we may have to revisit this rule,as light bulb is dimly lit above my head and the explanation for a full, and I mean full voice mail box on my cell phone is explained. I had 30 minutes of messages from 4 parents at camp and found out that one boy used his dad's 800 # to call home and the rest had calling cards. (Parents where upset that I wasn't calling them back right away, even calling my wife to demand an answer...which as always is no news is good news!) You are correct also in pointing out parents of today. When I was growing up, my folks only wanted to know where us kids where when it was meal time and bed time, otherwise it was "get out of the house!" Todays parents are much too involved in their kids lives. Yes too involved, let them grow up already, keep an eye on them, trust the people who you entrust to keep on eye on them (this means actually knowing the folks in scouting, not just dropping of junior at the babysitters of america and them call up yelling when the world does not go their sons way) and let them experience failure!, just not total failure. Scouting is supposed to be fun for us adults too and hopefully some moms and dads will realize that we are not their to hinder their kids! The most precious gifts my parents gave me where love, no matter what, self reliance, the responsibility of my actions, good/bad, the ability to have an imagination (no tv, etc. in the summer) and independence and all of that resulted in self esteem, not the other way around. And just so you don't think I'm that old a person, I am only in my late 30's. Loving Life J