jbroganjr

Okay, my head is dripping from the cold water. I feel that i should expound upon my point about competition, as my original post does not convey in specific details what I am trying to get across. I posted the following 4. To present the ideal of scouting competition (No its not about winning, its about personal competition to better oneself) I do not mean ideal competition, but an ideal of what competition should or more importantly not be. I am not trying to add to the program, nor make a new competition, etc. but if substituting the words "a scout progresses on his own" for personal competition makes everyone happy, including myself, so be it. Why I included this, the examples behind my presentation, may better explain where I am coming from. In no particular order Gateway Competition - Seen em complete with custom made dovetail joints, and master carpentry from troops comprised of 12 and 13 yr olds. Yes the intention may have been to show the boys how to accomplish something great, but it failed by not giving theboys to make something of their own Gateway Competition 2 - I have seen the Jamboree gateway show up for a district camporee gateway challenge as an example of "troop work" except that the jamboree troop built it, not the troop who brought it. Stacked patrols - patrols made of the older or better skilled scouts put together to win a competition. Popularity Contests - picking PL or SPL should not be based on popularity competitions, Now, I these instances are rare indeed, 'cepting the popularity contests, which tends to be human nature thing with the boys themselves, and most scouters will bring errant scouters to task on these instances and SM's work hard in every unit with the popularity issue. My point in adding it to my wish list of advanced training for experienced scouters is this. One to suggest ideal ways of competition through scouting aims. Two to reinforce that each scout goes his own pace. Three that scouting should be a place, a safe haven, that emphasizes personal development over winning. Four: Give ideas or tools to help re-energize and re-emphasize Scouters in dealing with the competitive human nature, wether amongst the boys, but also with adults and parents. The whole enchilada would present ideal competitions and the reasons behind them, i.e. patrol competitions are not about the best patrol, the end goal, truly is to have the boys plan and institute a plan, work with their elected leader and develop teamwork. The secondary gain/goal in this competition is to challene that team to find out about themselves, to overcome mental/physcial obstacles through teamwork. In the cub program, for example, PWD. I have always given the charge for years that the most important thing about the PWD is not the winning of the race, rather, the time spent between a young boy and his father, mother or older person making the car and that the boy should be instrumental in design of the car and as much craftmanship as possible in making the car. Many folks still think it is all about winning. When I was a CM, I also instituted a parents race, charge some money for it as a fundraiser for the pack, had trophies etc, and the parents car could not be the son's car. It changed the competition back to the way it should be, about the boys. Re-emphasis that us scouters while not referees, but at times brakes, especially amongst ourselves. When things show up that are "boy made" when they are not, I assume that the SPL is a scout way older then 18 and not boy run. In the end, my goal would be, as stated over and over, a re energizing, reemphasis of the program. I am not suggesting that we change or alter the program, but that a separate program be created that helps scouters help themselves. RT would be ideal, but the time constraints would not allow coverage of this. It could be a program modules presented over a years time at RT or a weekend of fun. the end results would benefit the youth of our program.My sugggestion for this would have a the follow prerequisites: NLE and Scout leader specific, 2 years experience with working directly with youth (TL,DL, CM, ASM SM, Venture Advisor), that the entire program presented follow the mission statement of BSA in determining program modules, and borrow, steal, rip off directly, the resources, that Bob W. presented in the existing training. If you are looking into insight on me, I am here for the kids and feel thatscouters are here to help boys achieve mental and physical growth throught the BSA program. The great thing about the program is its flexibility i.e. the way so many different religious institutions can use it in conjungtion with their own beliefs. Sorry about the long post, going to dunk my head again.

Bob white I don't like the fact that you get so prickly in responding to folks and that the use of Bold type instead of caps still comes across as shouting. If you had stopped and read my comments on a COURSE FOR SCOUTS WHO'VE BEEN AROUND AWHILE you would note that all the things you pointed out are, for the most part, the things I would RECOVER in an experience scout training course. Yeah, in a perfect scouting world, scouters who have been around awhile would regularly retake the traing, in reality they don't. The closest they get to it is teaching the training. MY POINT WAS that it would be a positive, ideal way of reinvigorating scouters. Most professions require updating skills and review, I suggested that this would be noble way of serving our youth. AS to my pesonal view on competition, I am from the N.E., maybe out in the midwest all the folks have friendly competition, but here (a huge region by the way) competition has a way of insinuating its way into most aspects of youth programs, from Sunday School to soccer to Scouts. Now I can go cite chapter and verse, but none of my suggestions or comments where out of bounds as to the program And this program does change over time and it changes to reflect ideas and attitudes held by the populace or have you forgotten that at one time National though camping should be eliminated from the program. It is easy to hide behind rules and regulations like some type of Boy Scout Cop, and to give you credit, your answers for the most part are on the money, but who elected you judge and jury when it comes to knock down any new idea that does not conform to the rules. Last time I checked, we uphold a duty to citizenship and that duty requires questioning things, reinventing things, coming up with new solutions. If mankind had always stayed behind the rules we would be like the priest at the temple ridiculing Christ. And I don't hide behind a moniker nor am I afraid to state an opinion, one thing I do not see in your threads.

I think you may be off phrase with non-religious, rather non-denominational. For my woodbadge, we covered prayers and poems from many different sources.We also covered the spirituality of the scout oath and law. We used the boyscout oath and law in ours, but the cub scout or venture also works. I would point you in the direction of using things that are spiritual in nature, things that inspire you, things that reveal the beauty and wonder of the world and the awe it inspires. I would suggest that you incorporate songs. "Amen" is a good one. Patriotic Songs are also fitting. Don't mistake non-denominational as not being able to use anything associated with one religion over another. Ours had writings from the Jewish, Catholic, Protestant and Islamic Faiths. Respect the other chaplain aides feelings if they do not want to "speak" a part they do not agree with. So look for those poems you have on the wall, in your wallet or purse for those Ann Landers or Dear Abby columns that you love, your favorite bible verse, koran verse or passage from the Torah. You could also ask the other patrol to let you know if there is something specific a member would like to be included to represent them. As long as you are not trying to come across as a leader of a specific religion or trying to impart favoritism of one over the other you should be fine. At our woodbadge, the overwhelming majority was Roman Catholic, so a priest came out on Sunday mornings (about 5:30 or 6:00) to say a mass, we then did our own Scouts' Own Service later in the morning. The same principle can be applied to other religious and their services, with a little prep. Look to Scoutmaster Minutes. I especially like using the leaders corner of inspirational thoughts found on the web site of Troop 915 Fulton Canal, Ohio, http://members.aol.com/t915/Inspire/Inspire_Frame.htm Songs and the like at usscouts.org or macscouter I also use this one http://www.getfed.com/texts/ for christian inspired stories or prayers. Don't be afraid to use a story, we all like a story with a happy ending on Sunday Mornings!

Currently working towards being the ruler of the world ...to support that endeavor I own part of a graphics/communication company that designs for print production, web, etc. (Anything you can get an image on.) ...so I might be a jack of all trades having read or retyped many of the professions literature here into "salesworthy" graphic publications such as advertising, marketing plans, public relations and such. Specialized in Pharmaceutical Dissemination of Information (which comes close but not quite as big as the BSA in publishing information...wish I had that account!)

My condolences I would suggest contacting the school and church(s) of your area for grief conselours. I would further suggest that the conseling include your adults too. G-d Bless You, may G-d's love smooth the pain you all must be experiencing.

BW No, I love the program. I just like tossing out subjects to get peoples take on them. Some of the subjects, I may not agree with, but toss out their and play devil's advocate. Why? Well if a subject warrants, I bring it back to my RT and throw it out there. I kinda use this a testing site because there are so many knowledgable scouters on this forum and who have such a range of experience and thoughts and their response enable me to think or rethink my positions. I would like to thank many respondents who truly show me the error or my ways and I have thanked them, including you, when I am off base. The ultimate reason for me is to provide a better program for the youth. I do see a tendency of too much adult involvement at times...and other times not enough adult involvement. You may have received this tendency from my postings on woodbadge, and, unfortunately It was not one of the highlights of my scouting career. But for a little insight on me, I am an ASM, the fun guy,working with a fun troop that has been brought to being boy run over the last 3 years, but I do CSRT as the outlet for me to be the biggest kid in town. This way, I am not setting myself up as the worlds oldest PL. In fairness though, I can be critical when things go way wrong, i.e. woodbadge. For readers who are not familar with my thoughts on the course, keep in mind, that it was my course per say that was not well run, the the overall course put out by National. I do point out things that I believe that may be harmful to the program, in a manner different from yours, BW, but my reasons for that is I see a downtrend in scouting. I have refered to it at times as dumbing down the program, etc. (Probably a poor choice of words). Unfortunately, National numbers do back up my assertion that something is awry with membership, as cubs and boy scout registrations are down (National Commissioner presented this to a multi council commissioner college in March 03) but overall numbers are up because of learning for life and Venture. Not to take away from those programs, I feel that a re invigoration of the program is in order, that it should be a bit more challenging. In a post a comment about a scouter who "talked about how different kids are today from back when" might not be that far off. I believe it is us adults who have changed dramatically, (I am not that old, have not hit 40 yet) and the program reflects it. By your posts, I have inferred that one of your primary statements, as to boys scouts is first year, first class, a noble and attainable goal, but what next. We do not sell the "sizzle" of scouting, rather the sizzle's emphasis, to me anyway, is put more on the Venture Program and at the cub level, there is an incredible amount of resources directed at the Tiger Program. Both of these emphasis, again in my opinion, neglect the marketing and implementation of the fun/rewards of the older scouting program of boyscouts/webelos. Throw into the mix overly cautious scouters and we short change the youth of the nation. For example, there was time when the Venture program was essentially the older scout program. Nowadays, when the scouts get older, we sell them the Venture Program (not venture patrol), complete with Coed status. We promote the heck out of signing up Tigers, but what about Webelos program. Now, In my defense, I have only my council to base my arguements on, as I am not involved with other councils, nor regions, etc, so this influence may be coloring my outlook differently, but that brings me back to the use of this forum. I do appreciate the responses from all and ask that people keep in mind the difference we all bring to the table. Never claimed to be right, never claimed to be wrong to thine own self be true - W. Shakespeare A good ole singed feathered owl

Okay, very valid point on tenure and if the purpose of woodbadge is to present the broad spectrum of scouting to non scouters, then it should not be sold as the Premier scout training session That said, one problem I have as a middle age scouter (been around, but not as long as a lot of people ;-} is that most training is geared towards newbies ('cept powederhorn training, which I personally believe you should know something about working with kids as well as the skills presented) and that it would better serve the "experienced" scouters, especially the 1 year repeated over and overs, to have an elevated training session. I am not suggesting a super skills weekend, but a broad spectrum of scouting ideals and resources In no particular order 1. Dealing with youth according to age levels (Too many folks in this world of ours do not follow a program of boy run troops and there is too much tendancy in the cub program to be only adult run, so a balance should be presente) 2. Role of the adult, summed up, not specific training, but lets reiterate jobs and functions. Specifically geared to the volunteers that work directly with youth 3. Skills - Ideally, the phrase that cubscouters do not know how to camp should not appear nor be an issue. Cubbies would welcome working with BoyScouters to learn the ropes (See a SM as a guide, Cubbies as tenderfoot) 4. To present the ideal of scouting competition (No its not about winning, its about personal competition to better oneself) 5. Where to go, project planning, etc. 6. Advancement - a measurement and byproduct of an effective program, not the "reason" we are here. (If a truly effective program is in place, I personally believe we will see not only more rank advancement, but greater retention of youth members) 7. Marketing and Image - It is up to scouters to not only put their best foot forward, but to get the message out how great this program is. 8. Leadership Follow Up - not presentation of new material, but application of theory and ideals to real world problems, a sharing of solutions and ideas Man, this is starting to resemble my RT program....

Oh grasshopper, welcome to the master's house What's missing....fun RT - not just an announcement fest. Mine is complete with: Songs, a game, a ceremony or two (Opening, Adv.) a purpose...my purpose is that every attendee leaves the RT with something that they can use to make their program better. how do I accomplish that...I don't, I'm not that smart, so I use the group...in a round table discussion. Sometimes I introduce the topic, other times it is brought up by a scouter. Programs areas covered in a year: B&G, new den leader, new CM, Webs to Scout, recruitment ideas, Pack/den planning, cub camping, theme things, how scouts learn, scouting with disabilities, the Turkey Dance, etc. We run a field trip of the month contest. We will be publishing a giant district list of places to go. We have an award ceremony every month for people who have never attended RT and give them a BSA lapel pin. Over the years, many people have come to RT looking for their free pin, hey it works First - a realistic evaluation must be drawn up and sent out to the units to measure your district and what the district wants/needs. Two - establish a staff who will share your vision of fun and learning. The more the merrier Three - Kill the announcements. Make em put in on paper and give em 2-3 minutes to sellthe benefits. Then direct the group to talk to the person "offline" Put the announcements last Four - Plan a great fun meeting. Implement the plan here is a nice idea, that a fellow CSRT in another district did this year. A Round Table Camporee/Klondike. He set up 4 to 8 stations with a variety of stunts/skills. One - Cub Scout Oath, Two - You have 3 minutes to design and execute a football play worthy of notice by the NFL, three - paper bag dramatics, make up a skit on the fly with props and suggested theme. Four - you get the idea. he used this to make the idea of the klondike fun and sold it to cub leaders and yes he ran it in Jan. in Jersey outside where the temps that week wher ein the teens. They all had fun, they all shared hot chocolate. Turkey Dance - you bring in 4 to 6 boxes of paper scraps (go tolocal printer and ask for cutter waste) and a roll of tape for each team. split into 4 to six teams and have team elect a leader! That leader is to stand still while the rest the team uses paper and tape to make the person into a turkey. We finish it off by killing thelights, turning on a strobe light an dblastin disco music for the Annual Turkey Dance (i always explain that this cannot and should not ever degenerate into any type of "victim activitey...so don't let people you know who are embarrased by being center stage be the victim) promote involvement by assigning openings or songs to different units Create a Rt totem - pass it out with instructions to bring it back with something from their unit on it. Balloon Games are always big with adutl scouters. All of this...Fun with a purpose. Good Luck I judge the staff and my success by th eamount of people we have to tell to go home at th end of the meeting As to size, I have pulled these stunts and antics not only at the district Rt, but at Pow Wow's, just rethink the fun to the size of the crowd. And phone calls get more action than email

I think I might have read somewhere in the voluminous library of scouting literature something about "praise in public, reprimand in private" Is it not the case, that these adults where reprimanding your son in public? Oh, they where just kidding around....how would their sons feel about such kidding around? Or they themselves.

if the boys recite this every week, how come there are so many times that they are not allowed to be clean? What do i mean How about summer camp, dress uniform for dinner. Nice idea, but the last three years at camp (at two different places) it was a week of 100+ degrees during the day and 85-90 degrees at night and uniforms and scouts stink! and the boys, after taking showers daily, do not want to wear their smelly uniforms. The spl (w/ ASM or SM) talk to dining hall only to be told that no uniform, no meal (which goes againsthow manyrules in G2SS) Of on a weekend campout, wearing the same tshirt all weekend long Or at woodbadge, where a person is vilified for not wearing the "proper" uniform. Well what about the rights of sweaty people???? Your thoughts?

kcw57 here is ashort version of a long training session You will spend the bulk of the course, sitting on your rearend watching ppt and flip chart presentation. One would hope that the presenters can make the material palatiple and engaging. The course is based on the one minute manager. Most of the examples of leadership/management (never really go into planning and stuff...and it should) will be punctuated with film clips from Hollywood (I would think a scouting scenerio woul work better) twice a day you will be involved in patrol activities that are similar to icebreakers and the staff will then deduce leadership qualities and ask you to compare your results. In many instances, this extrapolation is flawed. in all cases the exercises are juvenile and what the course overlooks is that people use these breaks as a mental holiday, not to demonstrate "forced" leadership scenarios, Plus its really hard to get excited about building a water rocket or playing the pass as many tennis balls as you can game. [a suggestion would be to incorporate real scout skills as the challenges and as for cubscouters never been camping, this would only serve as a learning module in managing diversity and exposing them to the outdoors]. One night you will have a staff presented campfire. At the end of a really long 1st weekend you will have to sit through a poorly made movie about rockets and your rearend will scream at your brain about the injustice of it. you will have a couple (at least two) patrol meetings before next weekend. It was only at thes meetings that my patrol actually got to know each other, as there is really no time to do so on a personal level on the first weekend. Next weekend, you camp as a patrol, but still spend a lot of time in the hall or campsite sitting and review ppt or flip chart presentations. the prefered and only method of instruction is 1. presentation of material in outline form, 2. presentation of single thoughts on each outline point, 3. followed up with showing the outline again and telling you that you learned it. No there is no time for questions because they have crammed a lot of useless information or rather Brilliant Glimpses of the Obvious and the course cannot get of track timewise. Oh and the resources given to you will be...you guessed it, the ppt slides printed out, yeah! no more, but no less. Unfortunately, i do not think that Ken Blanchard's book is the end all or be all. i have been in business for myself for 21 yrs, actually two business. I have also been heavily active in volunteer work for the last 10 yrs and have a whole lot of kids. the book and the course really do not cover the rough spots, its as if a miracle is to happen and all the controversy goes away. I though it would go more into detail about creating plans to strengthen programs so that recruitment of more volunteers for the jobs could be accomplished. It seems to this scouter, that if there are 1000 jobs to be done in scouting, 300 people do them all and its always the same 300 people i thought the course would mainly cover the hard spots and not gloss over it in PC fashion. In my course, diversity was continously stressed as being about race, which it isn't, so not much was gained there. Take the course? up to you. I did not learn anything new, i was reminded of things i'd forgotten, but nothing all that major. I personally don't care about the beads and such. i will earn them, but probably never wear them. I'm not a big one on wearing patches and stuff. I am more inclined to wear my neckerchief that is signed by all the boys in the pack from years ago that i recieved as a XMas present. It reminds me of my scouting purpose. I think the course has a good foundation of ideas and i hear that the course is implemented positively in other places, but it needs to have a lot cut out and more engaging activities brought into it. I think it a complete cowardice when people hide behind the new cliche of : well cubscouters are takingthis course and many of them have never been camping" guess what, another great opportunity to manage diversity. Plus that phrase is deaming to cub scouters...they are adults, no? Capable of experiencing things, even new things like camping at a council site (tents supplied, cots supplied, bathroom facitilites) its not like we are taking them out on their first trek. The statement also gives a good excuse for course director not to know their audience. hope this helps

Bob White the resources that I was asking/looking for where: the sources upon which the modules where based. Additional material that may be helpful. I was told by my conselour that the staff had access to this stuff, but attendees where not allowed to have it. Big Secret As to be invited to Woodbadge... don't worry, it is a take all comers proposition, with no tenure requirements, except NLE. We had a fellow (Tiger leader) who had just joined (Scouter for 2 months) who only took NLE and signed up for woodbadge so that he wouldn't have to ever take any other training. I do believe that their should be atenure clause (2 yrs) so that at least a scouter brings experience to the course. I fully support the idea that 1/3 staff must turnover and once a SM, that's it. Our course though is being run by a cabal all from the same district and i believe the same unit, all big shot volunteers at the council, so a wait and see approach is warranted on my part Now we had folks take woodbadge from our troop at a another council's course, and these folks raved about it. (both courses ran at the same time, so a lot of note taking was being done) and the comparisons where shocking, so I do not trash woodbadge as a whole, just my course. What has woodbadge taught me...that most people say one thing and do another, that there is a lot of do as I say, not as I do, that people take scouting way too seriously and forgot that it is to be fun. I took the course as a commissioner and the course has, to the benefit of the youth in the troop, pushed me away from all that to the troop, where I work with the PLC, providing the structure so that these young man can excel at running their program. It has taught me to go have fun and the heck with everything else, very hedonistic on my part, but ultimately we are there for the youth, not knots and big shot commissioner roles, district roles. this is how I find something positive out of a lousy situation. The end SM speech of Woodbadge, the "BIG" secret of leadership is "the golden rule", thankfully that is the way I was raised and try to live everyday. It was too bad that the course did not feel that way when it came to treatmentof the attendees.

i agree that a course is only as good as the training staff or the trainees can make it. the course i took, had the "best of the best" of my council. the attendees (48) where for th most part, people I have met and/or known in my tenure as a scouter...that said the problems with the course, in my opinion start with the staff, from the SM and advisior and flowed downhill from there. things got off track from the get go. There is a module in the course that covers being a new scout lasted the whole 1st weekend . there where numerous mentions of "there is no adult protection... Hazing is not aloud in scouts...but at woodbadge" Now while no hazing occured, no abuse occurred, the fact that this was given license too is inconcievable to me and most of the group taking the course...which brings up another major problem. there was no acknowledgement of the group and what the group brings to the course...a fundamental flaw in my opinion. This was not a group of 1 or 2 year experienced scouters, but a group of scouters who hold key jobs in the council (trainers, commissioners, SM, CM, etc) and have tenure average of 8 yrs in scouting. Both of these aspects tend to violate the Boy Scout Mission Statement, the Scout Law and th Scout Oath. This mess was further compounded by uncomfortable physical arrangements. If people are not comfortable, learning and participation are not going to happen, thus my mention of providing decent seating to your attendees. The staff, while very organized, (Many of these folks i know and have seen in action, positively at that) seemed to be reading out of a book. We where treated to the following instruction for the entire course (so I am guessing this is the suggested way in the course syllabus) of: Power Point presentation, with staff reading to the group what was on the ppt slide, followed up with ppt slides of "what you just learned"...wow the first weekend of 3 days of this was mind numbing to say the least. The heavy reliance of hollywood manufactured graphics only served to provide a mental escape for the group. (my background is advertising/design) and what I witnesses was that after listeing to the most boring presentations in the world, when a movie clip was shown, the groups brain switched, pavlovian style to "Ah a movie, mental relaxation," The entire first weekend was punctuated with treated the groups like a bunch of brain dead dopes and my conlcusion is that I suffered through a cult of personality that was to fearful to make the course and syllabus their own which translated into the group not being able nor provided the chance to grab mental ownership of the materials presented. I gotta tell you there is nothing like watching a presenter on Mentoring or guiding try to instill the the group when the instructor cannot pronounce nor understand the meaning of the words put into their mouth. The irony of it all was lost on the staff....but the attendees still have a laugh at this...painful laugh. We ended the course with our Woodbadge feast...which consisted mainly of left overs from the staff beading ceremony held the night before. I'm glad I'm an owl, because our patrol was the last to get any food of substance. foxes and on basically got bread. and yeah I will to my ticket, but only because it is about things I would have done anyway. and yeah, I was a pain in the backside on the second weekend, but a scout is truthful, no? Why do I list this bunch of grevianaces....because I was ripped off. Talking to scouters from other councils who have taken this course demonstrated that i did not recieve what I paid for, that this course only seems to have driven compassion from me when it comes to council wide functions (who would want ot work with these people?) and my hope that it never occurs again. Maybe there is a SM or SPL for woodbadge reading this and can take my criticisms and use them to make their program better. But I could never recommend woodbadge, at least in my council, to anyone and the notion that you make things better by joining in and affecting change from within...well in this case, this horse should be put down. Now having said that, I hope the folks that have the opportunity to take a "good" couse do so, because at the end of the day, there are some decent ideas in there. Big question though...why not hand out the resources for the material presented, why such a big secret. i was told they where not allowed to hand out the resources/references...kinda goes against scouting and using your leadership.

Our course cost $195 and was not worth one cent of the fee. the course i took would demonstrate why cub scouters stay away, I am just surprised anyone would take it. I found it trite and hackneyed. If you are having it at your council's dining hall, the least you could do is find comfortable seating. Nothing like sitting on hard benches for three days straight, benches without backs. Better yet, buy a book, you'd get more out of it than the new woodbadge course The course is supposed to be about leadership but I found that it really is just "leader sheep"

Boy this thread seems to only add to the "urban myth" with insurance and such...being from jersey, It doesn't matter what's covered, who's covered, etc, because jersey seems to be the lawyer capital of the world. Throw a rock and hit lawyer and at times it seems that all the lawyers need to sue...so that is why I carry an extra rider on my homeowners policy for scouting, make sure that there are always three when dealing with YP, etc. It is this inane environment that breeds urban myths, and yes, dumbs down program in the name of "safety" or CYA I don't want to be liable for anything. As for my mention of woodbadge (and that module was indicicative of the waste of time the entire course was) and liquid fuels...it would have served everyone better to one, not pretend, and two, explain the policy(s) our council has concerning liquid fuels (Which brings up a reality check here...how many of you OA guys use OA fuel?) Oh that's right its a society of secrets, not a secret society To get back on track, it is imperative that us "super scouters" do not go around with all the answers (I have even seen BW post that he was mistaken...) and that the correct answer is..."I will get back to you" Another CSRTC from a different district as well as I, love to throw these handgrenades out at RT, to one point out the silliness of being so serious, to demonstrate that we do not all have the answers, to see where the program may be going off track (by the answers received) and to provide a forum for positive engagement. Many times it has required calls out to Irving to get the correct answers (complete with the cited publication). Why do this? Not for harm, but in order to remind everyone about 1. Safe Haven and 2. Fun...w/a purpose. All these "common misunderstandings " ultimately lead to denying youth there experiences, at times there advancements and deviate from the program.

Here's a couple more urban legends. No Sheath Knifes - GSS says so, actuallyit says that sheath knives are discouraged. There is a length requirement on knives - again, no such animal You must have a whittlin chip (cubs) or a totin chit (boyscouts) to carry a knife - No you don't need either to carry a knife in scouts and both are not "advancement" of rank. An eagle project must have at least 100 hours of combined service - there is no minimum of time on an eagle project You must complete all required merit badges before starting an eagle project - No you don't An eagle candidate must proof leadership by being the SPL at some time during his scouting tenure (More stuff from misinformed, agenda minded adults) You can't earn any MB until your a first class scout - (More meadow muffins) You must take the new scout course at summer camp! (nonsense) Partial MB cards are only good for one year You must be 14 to climb a rock wall, indoor wall, any type of climbing (I guess these folks never viewed tiger cubs in action, those boys can climb anything) MB and rank are only given at boards of review (personally witnessed this hogwash in my own troop, it changed just to shut me up - immediate recognition is vital to rewarding our youth - my argument "We will wait until the company picnic or XMas party before instituting your raise") All scouting prayers have to be non denominational (No, but non denominational services are a part of scouting, but non denominational prayers? what church or synagogue do i get those from?) If I don't like the way you did your job, then your tenure as a (insert any leadership position) does not count ( This is one I have heard and seen in action and is not allowed. It only shows at SM is not aware of the boys in his troop or doesn't have the courage to step in and either remove or find out what the problem is in the first place) No songs that reference any body function or poke fun at specific groups are allowed ever (Not true, there are no "Banned Songs or Skits" ) There is way to much of this stuff in scouts today, why, I don't really know, but I surmise that it goes hand in hand with the lessoning of fun and the dumbing down of the program. And this shows Nationally. the National Commissioner was up our way a couple weeks back and there was a lot of talk about the diminishing numbers in cubscouts (down 5%) and boyscouts (down about 7%), though this is overlooked as the overall registrations are up (Learning for Life and Venture). Venture used to be the Boy Scout Program, years ago. But we constantly dumb down our strong points. My personal urban myth gripe is "You have to be a trained professional to do any exciting, daring stuff" actually no, you do have to know what you are doing, but a professional? I don't think so. I would love to have a copy of this thesis you are writing As to the absurdity of liquid fuels, at the disappointing wood badge course that I took last year, there was a training module of 45 minutes devoted to backpacking stoves. However, no one was allowed to have fuel, fill the stoves nor light them, but at the end, everyone was "qualified" in backpacking stoves. Yep that qualification will come in real handy when: you over prime the stove, you first realize that some of those stoves sound and move like jet engines, three, that the smallness of the stove in relation to the big pot only go to prove Newtons Laws of Gravity, as the meal topples over just as it is done cooking. Four, you store that fuel bottle in your back pack and it wicks all over your clothes, and finally - "You mean there are adjustable and breakable parts in this thing?" tx J

Funny story I wonder how we could use these methods to increase FOS?

I have pretty much finished up my presentation for an upcoming commissioner's college on "Ideas for involving Youth at Round Table". It might seem a silly idea to have youth involved at RT, after all Scouting is a serious business, best left to old time scouters and professionals... wait you say...it should be boy run program???? Well, here's your invite to come enlighten me. ;-} Seriously though, your thoughts are welcome, as I believe this is an opportunity to put our mission into action, Fun with a purpose and Boy Lead! Tx j

Let the APL do the job and get a win/win situation. There already is a sharp, go getter PL and now the APL will get the experience of PL as well. In 2 or 3 months, a great team with great leadership. Keep an eye and ear out for any grumblings of "favoritism", ya never know. And make sure every member of the patrol has a job to keep them all focuses. Good Luck and I'll pray the parents let him come back. A side note: 12 - 13 is such a hard time in a boys life, and speaking from experience (which comes from judgement, most of it bad) the ole "hard discipline" for the most part is just a waste of time and energy by the time they get to this age. They need mentors and guidance. They need to know the boundaries, which is not that hard to set, and parents to oversee this stuff. Discipline and punishment as to grades, IMHO opinion can be counter productive in boys. (will get back to you on how it is w/girls in a few years). 12-13, even 14 for the most part is confusing, emotional, and like March weather, behavior can change depending on the hour. The kids need guidance, like a lighthouse or say "scouting". The safe haven of scouting is not talked about alot, but oh so important in these young mens lifes, a break from the world, a positive environment, where the boys are "masters of their worlds"

Yes, you have to stop showing up. When I stepped down, I thought about sticking around to "help out" but realized that every one is different and it would not be fair to the new CM. We are different, both good. And by not being there physically (only a phone call away) he puts his imprint on the program. " ... it's not the signs of the hard economic time. I think that dsteele was right. The parents are taking advantage of the changing of the leadership and decided to take a break! " I'm not sure...our pack went from 75 boys to 50 in one year. I think there may be financial reasons, national insecurity reasons, or more likely, the change in leadership effects recruitment of the new Tigers, etc. My suggestions: Ensure the program is fun. Two, address this issue at the next leaders meetings. Make phone calls. More people remember to show up when called, email is a poor communicator/reminder. A phone call is much, much more effective. Combine both ideas...make the program fun and get the parents to come make it happen by giving them a "job" for pack/den meetings. It takes time and this time of year is hard. Hopefully this is just a blip in the road.

Are you talking about just boy scout leaders and/or cub scout leaders. I am a RT commish. I would caution turning a RT meeting into a night of "training" unless....your training is disguised as a fun type of activity or an interesting topic. Piggybacking, in my opinion, does not work, i would suggest having a module (time slot) in the RT agenda to cover a scout skill. That said, it sounds to me that a full blown training session(s) are required. Your leaders will get so much more out of RT if they have gone through New Leader Essentials and job specific training. Round Table then truly does its job by augmenting this training, involving the group to share their experiences, good and bad, discuss program areas, etc. So Iwould schedule some NLE sessions for your group.

Dinosaur patrol - big bodies, little brains Lighthouse patrol - the guiding light in the darkness Rocking chair patrol - a place to go and do something when you want to interfere I personally think we should come up with a BSA Police patch, met too many folks who have forgotten about fun and what scouting is about, only hung up on their interpretations of the rules (most times that interpretation is wrong)

Dinosaur patrol - big bodies, little brains Lighthouse patrol - the guiding light in the darkness Rocking chair patrol - a place to go and do something when you want to interfere I personally think we should come up with a BSA Police patch, met too many folks who have forgotten about fun and what scouting is about, only hung up on their interpretations of the rules (most times that interpretation is wrong)

A couple of thoughts on postings. One, Den Chief training to late in Nov., our council does it in Jan/Feb. it should be held in Sept and IMHO, with some of the youth staff from council JLTC. Two, Ages and confidence, i strongly believe that the den chief be fully three grades removed from the boys he is to be den chief with. three big Brother Den Chief, conventient for all, but many times not effective, as one brother will lose out. Three, There should be a re-emphasis on this job, on the unit, district and council level, Hopefully "Scouting Mag" is paying attention here. I like the one posters thread about bringing up the level of importance of den chief, like OA, nice positive touch. Information about how effective PL, who where/are den chiefs is data that has to get out to the units! Four, As imperative as it is for a SM or ASM to sit, reflect, ask and then train a den chief, more work is needed with the DL or WL on how to use a Den Chief, and that is not to say that there will still inevitably be personality conflicts. Five, Den Chief Training and using Den Chief should be part of Pow Wow's Six, it would be nice to have some type of official BSA award for Den Chiefs who go to cub camp with their dens. They work harder than CIT's at every camp I have seen Den Chiefs at. On my own experience, we, the troop SM and ASM, really think hard about who is a good candidate. for Cub Scouters, most troops are 1/2 to 1/4 the size of packs and in all fairness to boy scouts, their calendars are demanding, between increased school work, sporting, other scouting activities, etc. And with smaller youth in a unit, more jobs are handed around to the older boys, who many times just can't fit den chief into their schedule. So it is grossly unfair to paint all SM and Troops as uncaring, when you may not know the whole story. For example, our troop of 30, going through incredible leadership growing pains, (a natural progression in boy run troop) also has 4 active eagle project in the works, just finished up 2 eagle projects, has a fund raiser in the works, and will have 4 scouts participating with the venture crew at northern tier, so all that really stretches the kids thin and as an ASM, I might just laugh at a request at this time, but hopefully would explain all this to the prospective cubscouter. One thing that I use as criteria, is the boy who is burning out on troop leadership and just wants to have fun. If he is trained right, and communication open, I have seen many den chiefs elevate their scouting spirit in the troop from the ego boost they get from working with the cubs. Seven, Den Chiefs are the best recruitment tool, (And for more accolades, maybe somehting should be done for them at district camporees!) On another note, my son is a board of review awayfrom star and many times asks me "do we have to wear uniforms tonight? to a troop meeting, but never has to be told to put one on for the cubs who he is den chief. As for accolades, he was made honorary staff at camp last year, given staff shirt and hat (I can't even get one of those) and the pride I have in his accomplishments can't be described.

Can anyone help me find plans to build a compressed air water-bottle rocket launcher, the type used to launch 2 liter bottles that are half filled with water? I need this for an upcoming camporee. Tx J